Christian's Arrested At muslim Festivial In New York

[Mirabilis]

Ok, so this is old news, that happened a couple weeks back. But I just can't believe that this happened in the States. I never thought I'd see the day that christians, or any religious group for that, would get arrested for going to a public event, trying to spread the word, and get arrested for it. Its really kind of shocking to me. But here's the video of the four who got arrested. Keep in mind this is not the whole footage, you can see it though on youtube.

[Toku Warrior]

I can understand why they got arrested. Yes, the U.S. has the freedom of speech but it's an Arab event so those four had no real right to try and press Christianity onto them by preeching, knowing full well that the Muslims wouldn't appreciate it.

[Mirabilis]

Thats true, but as they said, it was a public event and the muslims were inviting people to ask questions. They (the christian witnesses) only talked to those who walked up to them, and started talking to them. I can understand if security would ask them to leave, but they straight up arrested them and carted them off to jail.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Mirabilis

[Mirabilis]

Here's another video showing footage of what happened. This is really alarming to me.

Could this mean the end, of being able to pratice freedom of religion in America? It's kind of frightening and upsetting, because the Country was founded on Christian believes. The primary reason why the Pilgrims left England, and came to America, was to establish their own right to pratice their believes, without the prosecution from either the Church of England or the Catholic Chruch.

But now America is doing away slowly with all the things that have anything to do with God or Christ, because our government doesnt want to hurt anyone's feelings. I am not saying you have to be any certain religion, thats one of our rights as an American citizen, (the right of Freedom of religion) I am just saying I think its rediculious that things are coming to this.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Mirabilis

[Mirabilis]

Heres another video explaining events that happen. Apparaently after they were arrested, the officers took the 18 year old girl to another cell and were sexually harrassing her. Making her strip to her tank top, because she was praticing her right to journalism outside a Musim Fesitval on a Public Side walk, in the United States of America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY0D3j2Wbi8

[Mirabilis]

Here is the footage of what happened last year. Notice, fellow american citizens, as our rights are indeed walked all over and these fellows are not allowed to even hold a camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPod-hxD7g&feature=related

[Salkafar]

That's odd. Between 75% and 85% of US citizens identifies themselves as Christian. Adversely, 0.6% is Muslim.

[Mirabilis]

Well, here's what happened. This is really upsetting.

Apparently the mayor, of the city, has been lieing as well, hasent gotten any of his facts straight.

Heres what happened to the girl as well, during these events.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RTc575lhfA&feature=related

[Mirabilis]

And here it is on Fox News.

[LordSpleach]

Their arrest were definitely political. The cops took them away to prevent a situation like the last incident and jumped the gun. Now as far as them still having video footage, they probably had a cop inside who knew that this was bull and 'forgot' to erase the footage.And if the mayor is lying to save face, they just need to have the Sheriff and Mayor voted out.

[*V Guyver]

This feels more like an abuse of authority then an actual religious issue to be honest. Now I admit that it's rather insulting to some people to have a religious group interrupt another different religious groups gathering, but that's as far as it goes. Much better way of handling this situation was available.

I've ran into Muslims trying to convert me, or some other forms of Christianity. And you know what? I welcome it for the post part, it often leads to a religious debate or a trading of ideas, and we both usually end up leaving satisfied by what we learned, I get a better understanding of their beliefs, and they either learn more about christian views, or learn facts about their own religion they didn't know.

I'm sad to say this, but this is no longer the case here in the US, people used to act a lot more like me a long time ago when it came to the same topic, but I'm finding it harder and harder to find people who are willing to discuss the ideas instead of either insulting and dismissing my own, or simply trying to force all their ideas on me (Which is now the typical American way).

[*Jess♥]

if the muslims were celebrating their faith in a festival and the christians were coming along to 'spread the word'... actually that is incredibly offensive and almost like they are oppressing the muslims. they are acting like the muslims are wrong for believing what they believe. now I'm not a US citizen so I don't fully get what it's like to live in a place with a RIGHT to freedom of speech or freedom of expression.

here in the UK, if your actions are causing upset to a large chunk of the community, you can be asked to stop.

so from my point of view, those police were acting normally. perhaps to an american, it looks wrong? I'm not sure.

the problem with a right to freedom of speech, you can get a lot of people writing things that are incredibly offensive. I watched a program on tv about some christian offshoot sect that was picketing the roads with signs saying "god hates fags". i see that as a problem and I think it can promote violence if the police cannot stop anything like this.

in the end, I do agree that it is probably more of a political issue than a religious one.

since I believe that many westerners are very uncomfortable when confronted with islam.

and so the authorities have to be aware of this and know that any situation could arise quite easily.

[durendal]

I do apologize first if I offend anyone with this post, but such issues are very fickle to the point of irritating. These kinds of incidents always happen because of the persons involved being narrow minded. I see certain religious groups denouncing gay, arabs, and other minority groups which I think is wrong. A certain religious group protesting a minority would be the same as oppression, which is the exact opposite of Freedom of Speech. The extreme opposite of this issue, like what just happened, is just as bad. Remember that anger can lead to people doing reckless and irrepairable things.

So to those who put picket fences, make a rally or demonstration and do protest, I think these people are just narrow minded.

[Matt Bellamy]

This is one of those odd cases where I despise the "Right of Free Speech" and the "Right to Practice ones own beliefs", which I would normally defend.

But, where does one draw the line?

Considering the Muslims also have the same Right to Practice their own beliefs, do the Christians have the right to attempt to interrupt them? It's just one of those things that morally, one has to say "No, they shouldn't", but groups like the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) will stand up and say "Yes they can" because of some loophole, or play on a wording in the Constitution.

I bet the American founding fathers never had the slightest idea that their good intentions could be used in such a way.

I won't go into the Police practices, or how the incident was treated ( unfortunate as it may be)... Because the real question here, is should those Christians have even come close to the festival at all, if they weren't interested in learning about it? If they were there to spread the Christian word, Security should have removed them immediately.

That's like going to a Horse race, with a racing Dog. Then trying to get the Dog into the race, because you believe your Dog is faster than a Horse. It's not necessarily an absurd idea, but the majority of the people there do not want to see that, they came for Horse racing. So you start to chat them up about it, and some people complain about it. And once a complaint is made, you'd be asked to leave/removed from the premises.

This example has no "Free Speech" interference, so it sounds like a stupid thing for someone to do, right?

Yeah well, it's EXACTLY what the Christians tried to do. Just replace "Horse race" with the Muslim Festival, and "Faster Dog" with Christianity. And it is WRONG. You don't walk into a Festival that is trying to promote one thing, and then try and promote the exact opposite. It's not against the law, but it is stupid.

It's only a shame that Security/Police handled it so poorly after the fact.

[Mirabilis]

I just want to take this time to say, that I did not start this to cause any debates or anything. I wanted to show you guys what is going on, and how poorly this situation was handled.

Ok, so I completely understand what you guys are saying. They shouldnt be protesting and such, as human beings, that is very problematic, and is morally wrong. But now, try to look at it, from their point of view, the christians, that we need to go out and try to share the gospel with as many people as possible, without making a scene etc, they are suppose to do it with love, joy, and happiness (christ like). The problem for them is, is that too many false or bad christians have been known to carry a sign that says "Turn or Burn!" or "God hates Fags!" which is not only wrong to begin with (God loves everyone), but that kind of behavior turns people off. And thats when I would say, they need to be removed from the area.

However, these guys wernt picketing, they werent handing out phamplets (inside the festival), and were only answering questions from a group of curios Muslims. And not only as you saw, but as they even said, 3 out of the 4 wernt saying anything, they were filming. And the Police were acting like dictators, they cant stop you from journalism, the only one who exchange words with Muslims was the guy who was approached (mind you) HE was approached by them, and they asked him questions trying to heckle him, and he was arrested for basically answering questions and exchanging in a conversation.

On another note, one of the reasons why they were there, was to learn about the Islamic culture and believes, so they can know what and how they pratice their religion.

I am sorry to say the point being here that upsets me is that citizens in the U.S. have the right to pass out phamplets of any kind on a Public Street, and the right to Journalism, period. I don't care what the phamplet is about, it could be about religion, concerts, believes, events, anything. They, as American citizens have that right to do it, they do. Anywhere, from a Muslim Feastival to a Parade. I mean, you don't see the cops arresting Jehovah's Witnesses Outside Holiday events or Christian events, or any event for that matter. Why? Because they are excercising their right to do so. And i dont have a problem with that, but if they did get arrested, then there would be a problem.

Now, if it was Private Property, that would be a total different story. But, thats not the case here.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Mirabilis

[Matt Bellamy]

I just want to take this time to say, that I did not start this to cause any debates or anything. I wanted to show you guys what is going on, and how poorly this situation was handled.

Ok, so I completely understand what you guys are saying. They shouldnt be protesting and such, as human beings, that is very problematic, and is morally wrong. But now, try to look at it, from their point of view, the christians, that we need to go out and try to share the gospel with as many people as possible, without making a scene etc, they are suppose to do it with love, joy, and happiness (christ like). The problem for them is, is that too many false or bad christians have been known to carry a sign that says "Turn or Burn!" or "God hates Fags!" which is not only wrong to begin with (God loves everyone), but that kind of behavior turns people off. And thats when I would say, they need to be removed from the area.

However, these guys wernt picketing, they werent handing out phamplets (inside the festival), and were only answering questions from a group of curios Muslims. And not only as you saw, but as they even said, 3 out of the 4 wernt saying anything, they were filming. And the Police were acting like dictators, they cant stop you from journalism, the only one who exchange words with Muslims was the guy who was approached (mind you) HE was approached by them, and they asked him questions trying to heckle him, and he was arrested for basically answering questions and exchanging in a conversation.

Posting a topic like this, in this specific forum, was just asking to start a discussion on it. If you just wanted to post a news article, the General section might have been a better place. In fact, the entire point of the post seems to scream Religious discussion. If that is not what you wanted, I can close the topic if you so wish. However, the fact you keep on posting more and more about it clearly suggests otherwise.

That being said, are you Christian by chance? Because my views come from me not being of any religion, and have my own moral code that does stick pretty close to Laws Governed by Federal Governments. As well, as a profession, I am a Security Officer, and have had to deal with smaller, but similar incidents.

Honestly, going to a Festival for another Religion, and trying to spread your Religion is a shorthand version of all that exactly wrong with the world today, no matter if you are doing it nicely or not. If this were the Middle Ages, they'd have been stoned to death or mobbed by the faithful they were trying to convert. It's not just Christians who do it (Though it does sound awfully "Crusade-ish" in this case), but Religion is a very touchy subject, and one that has brought pain and suffering to many, for incidents such as this... Even in this day and age.

And obviously they made some sort of scene, or they wouldn't have been noticed by Security. Just the fact that there was security and Police there does mean that, while on Public Property, it was a planned, and approved function. Perhaps even with City Permit. If it was Private Property, the Christians wouldn't have been allowed on the premises at all. But because it was Public Property, they were allowed to be in attendance. However, ones behavior should still be respectful of the subject matter at hand. Which theirs was not.

Now, if the Christians had walked into the area, completely ignorant of the event that was taking place, and just doing what they normally do, I could see the giant outrage due to the misunderstanding. However, it's painfully obvious they were aware of it. And if indeed it was booked as a public event by the city, then it was no doubt posted in the news days or weeks before. They knew what they were doing.

The functions that I have handled in the past were Neo-Nazi marches in our public streets. I mean, literally, the worst of the worst White Supremacists. They however, filled out the proper forms, and paid the fees to block the public property streets to hold their demonstration. The whole city was warned in advance about the road closures, and let know the exact reason why. And a lot of protesters showed up. And Security and Police stopped numerous people from interfering( again, the police in questions tactics are a problem, but not the real issue. Police corruption and nasty methods are more commonplace everywhere).

So, I'm not saying they broke any actual Laws, so much as they start to give both Muslims and Christians more reason to hate each other. Let's say one of them did get hurt by a Muslim man and that Muslim man was arrested for assault. Yes, the Muslim man did commit a crime, while the Christian man was a victim of assault. In the news next day however, it'd probably be all over the news in Muslim countries, saying he was justified in his assault, as he was provoked by the Christian for spreading their "Lies", and giving them more reason to hate Christians than they already do. Sounds unbelievable doesn't it? How one little incident could cause an entire Country to get into an uproar... But these days, it happens nearly on a constant basis. It's just more fuel for their Propaganda.

On another note, one of the reasons why they were there, was to learn about the Islamic culture and believes, so they can know what and how they pratice their religion.

Sorry, but as I mentioned earlier, if they were there to learn about the Muslim religion, they wouldn't have been handing out pamphlets of their own. If that is what they claim, then they are outright lying. Unless they were there to learn about way to exploit the religion in order to convert more people to Christianity. There is no way they could claim that and not have anyone ( especially a Lawyer) throw that back in their face.

I am sorry to say the point being here that upsets me is that citizens in the U.S. have the right to pass out phamplets of any kind on a Public Street, and the right to Journalism, period. I don't care what the phamplet is about, it could be about religion, concerts, believes, events, anything. They, as American citizens have that right to do it, they do. Anywhere, from a Muslim Feastival to a Parade. I mean, you don't see the cops arresting Jehovah's Witnesses Outside Holiday events or Christian events, or any event for that matter. Why? Because they are excercising their right to do so. And i dont have a problem with that, but if they did get arrested, then there would be a problem.

Because I've never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses being that disrespectful. Maybe it has happened, I don't know. Feel free to correct me with any news stories you might have of it. Though I HAVE heard of people charging Jehovah's Witnesses for harassment for constant visits by the same Jehovah's Witnesses follower. They are usually dropped of course when they offending faithful agree to never bother them again.

It's really not uncommon for people to get asked to leave for disrupting anything on public property. And while, as you say, some of the Muslims there seemed a bit interested, it probably wasn't them that alerted Security. The MAJORITY of the people there ( key word here) were there for the Muslim Festival. Publicity laws favor the Majority, and if removing 4 people from a group of hundreds keeps the majority satisfied, then that is what they will do. If the Christians really wanted to "Spread the Gospel", they should have booked their own Festival.

And in this case, it just so happens that Christian America is currently at war with Muslim countries in the Middle East. That's the only reason why this made any sort of national news.

[*Jess♥]

yeah i understand the issue.

I guess it could appear that the police are behaving unfairly towards christians.

is there any other occurence of this?

or is this police acting in favour of muslims?

which way around?

hmm, In a way i guess it could be seen as awkward.

i would like to say, with regards to spreading the gospel, any christian doing this, in order to be effective, needs to think about how they would be received. the simplicity of the act is simply making sure people know about it. in this respect, going to talk to muslims is kinda redundant since they already know about the gospel. they just add more stories and dogma to it.

so this may not be completely relevant but evangelising to muslims is kind of redundant.

or maybe i'm wrong. if so, no big deal. I'll accept it.

edit: seems matt has posted before me. my post was not taking into account what matt wrote but it's ok, doesn't change much.

[*V Guyver]

Hmm, well the Christians there were certainly not there to learn about muslims, they were absolutely there to hopefully convert them to Christianity. With no intend to learn from these people, then you probably shouldn't of bothered them in the first place despite your goals.

I don't see how the cops were acting in favor of the muslims. In all honesty, I disliked what they did, but I understand that they really do want to avoid a bad situation. So they tried to defuse it before there was a remote chance of it. I actually think that those guys asking questions purposely began crowding and talking to them, and had another friend walk over and bring the police to break it up. Still doesn't change the fact that the Police lied and acted like jerks about the situation.

The guy in the video from when they were arrested, the chatty round headed Muslim with the close shaven look. He was asking them, and obviously didn't care for them and wanted to start an argument. With that in mind, it was probably better if the group did leave. Just wish it wasn't via arrest, but rather the then simply ordering them to leave. Even if it is freedom of speech, a event has the right to expel certain people who disrupt the public gathering, no matter the reason. I wonder now that if the cops hadn't removed those Christians, would the young confrontational men of tried to push it further?

In my opinion, everyone screwed up, the Christians for entering the event while knowing they are unwanted, the Police for being too forceful and possibly sexually harassing a girl, then lying about the ordeal. And finally the young muslims who didn't choose to ignore pesky Christians.

[durendal]

Okay, I took the time to watch the actual video of what happened. I'm not sure what you guys think, but it looks to me like the crowd was being sarcastic to the guy answering all the questions. The fact that he acknowledge the question "Why is christianity better than muslim?" would already make sparks. Being in a muslim event preaching, even though it was the crowd asking questions, is already an action of bad faith. You do not preach in a muslim event. Period. Sure, the police officers may have handled the situation in an exaggerated manner, but I still think those 4 guys shouldn't have done what they did. No, they don't deserve what happened to them, but I don't think they should have gotten off lightly too.

[Mirabilis]

Hmm, this is quite surprising, I am very interested in everyones replies so far.

To Matt, I am sorry, I must have come across with a bad choice of words? No biggy, I ment I didn't want to have this topic turn into a "This is why my religion is better" and just have an arguement on which is true and that sort of thing. I am very happy to hear these responses and am hoping for more replies. I really want to see what you all think of this.

Well, I as for me I think that the situation could have been avoided. As V Guyver has said, I would rather them leave the event of their own free will peacefully, and not in hand cuffs. I think this whole situation was completely blown out of the water. And as the guy said in the video to the mayor, those guys have been to all kinds of Muslim events all over the world, with camera's and there were no problems. So why, would it be a problem in that city?

Well, I am really hoping that this case makes it to the Supreme Court. I am looking forward to seeing how this is going to turn up.

[*Jess♥]

it's funny though..

because i am seeing something of a pattern now.

just in the news today, a member of parliament is being threatened with legal action because he doesn't wish to talk to constituents if they have their face covered.

they say it's discrimination.

I say it's his right to not speak to somebody unless they face him.

actually it's rude to cover your face when talking to somebody. unless you're sick.

I would not talk to somebody if they have their face covered. I would feel threatened by it.

so this seems, the law is seemingly perverted in favour of muslim shariah law?

[Aether]

i think you are treading on dangerous ground there ryuki...

i do agree its his right to talk to whom he likes, but i presume the woman is in his constituency, if he doesnt want to serve the people who live in it then he should give up his job.

really his aversion to speaking to that individual is like saying he doesnt want to speak to someone because they are black or chinese or asian or any race,creed,colour or culture that is different to his own - fair enough they could not change the fact they are racially different but she can neither help that she has been indoctrinated by a cultural (not strictly religious) custom that (in my opinion) demeans her humanity. it is his reaction that is the problem. if you were confronted by an alien that was so repulsive you felt like throwing up in its face you would sill have to be willing to reserve judgement until you knew its inner being, you would have to control your emotion over a superficial thing and concentrate on the spirit or'ghost' within the seemingly repulsive 'shell'...do you get my point???

i get you are coming at this from a law point of view, but going into that and looking at the reasons why we have this situation of political correctness etc. now, opens a big can of worms that i think is not worth getting into, especially to do with religion.

and i really dont like talking about religion any more, as the majority of it sucks.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Eether

[*Jess♥]

I have many things to say on the subject but i have chose to leave it unsaid for now.

just consider this.

if it were supposedly part of a persons culture to gesticulate wildly with a machete while expressing his/her opinion, would that make it ok in this country?

in the name of political correctness and supposed tolerance of cultural differences?

our government need to change their interpretation of public feeling on this kind of issue.

a news report i read stated:

Damian Green said it would be "undesirable" for Parliament to try to pass such a law as it goes against the UK's "tolerant and mutually respectful society".

i wonder just what evidence he was using to ascertain our society as tolerant and respectful, when a poll suggested 67% of uk citizens would support a ban on this type of dress.

[Aether]

eether, I don't think there is anything dangerous about what i said.

i will not go toe to toe with each point you have made ryuki as i dont want to argue.

what i meant was your post could be misconstrued. even though i dont 'know', know you, i think i know you well enough to know that you are in no way whatsoever a biggot. however when you start to air opinions on such things you really have to be carefull exactly how you say things.

like i said its a massive issue with many complications. the problem is occupation without intergration or respect for indigenous culture and on the flipside fear. both sides are at fault. to a degree both sides are ignorant and selfish towards the other. but such is human nature.

i do agree with some of what you said, but not all. but that is your right, as it is mine. so thats that

[*Jess♥]

i will not go toe to toe with each point you have made ryuki as i dont want to argue.

what i meant was your post could be misconstrued. even though i dont 'know', know you, i think i know you well enough to know that you are in no way whatsoever a biggot. however when you start to air opinions on such things you really have to be carefull exactly how you say things.

yeah i'm no bigot of course, I love all people.

but this is something i feel is dangerous. anyway, I completely redid my post so maybe it has a different message.

take another look.