Theories of female optimization

[Toku Warrior]

Ok, it seems this is a subject not talked about much but is very noticable in the Guyver universe. What are some theories about female optimization when a woman wants to become a zoanoid or a zoalord?

One topic that is of current interest is pregnancy and optimization.

If a woman gets optimized, then would she loose the ability to reproduce and in turn just become a type of lost number? Or, would there be any special precautionary measures taken during processing to make sure that this doesn't happen?

Everyones thoughts?

[*BananaKing]

Well, I doubt a woman would retain her reproductive organs after optimization, but I also doubt Chronos would want female zoanoids becuase (sorry if this offends anyone) but men are typically stronger. I think a pro maybe increased agility due to their sleak and lightweight bodies.

[The Crimson Guyver]

Or female zoanoids are used as spies or if the zoalords are lazy to attract zoanoids who have escaped.

[Guest Ashura]

I have to say that in the course of learning martial arts, I notice women are not only more agile and flexible but also far more reserved/focus and significantly less impulsive (though this does not seem to apply to the younger generation - 18 and younger - not including any exceptions)...

I would say women would make better Zoalords (Griselda comes to mind) than Zoanoids. A women is more likely to get answers when in a role of leadership than men, not to mention their ability to multi-task is an outstanding asset. Not that men can't be any of what I just stated but for the sake of the discussion I think they'd be better as Zoalords.

I don't think they'd have much use for their reproductive organs either.. I'm pretty sure Balcus would love to get his wrinkled fingers on their eggs though for harvesting. Having a batch of clones makes for plenty of possibilities when it comes to the zoaform process. The only exception to this now is if Balcus decides to utilize the reproductive organs to create a Zoanoid that births other zoanoids en masse... kind of like a snake, or turtle (reptiles in general?)..

Maybe even creating a "Queen" Zoanoid (a la Alien Queen from the Alien movies).. maybe producing an army of lithe, agile zoanoids whose only goal would be to overwhelm the Guyver by sheer numbers, which would allow other slower, stronger Zoanoids to come in and inflict some more damage.

Perhaps because a woman's mind is also generally more suited to multi-tasking, it'd be easier for Balcus to create a Zoalord/Zoanoid specifically designed to control Zoanoids (Griselda comes to mind again - although its not necessarily her primary purpose), which would allow other Zoalords to be free to focus simply on eliminating the Guyvers or whatever task they have at hand.

And not to throw women in the "sex object" light, I will say Balcus could even create a female Zoanoid/Zoalord that secrets a pheromone in copious amounts that would cause Sho or Agito to fall in a "trance"...essentially being chemically-overwhelmed (pretty much going "ga-ga" over a woman) and being lulled by this female's seductive charm. Maybe you can't affect a Guyver with telepathy or chemically (as far as I know).. but when they're NOT in their bio-armor, its a different story...

- Ashura

[*zeo]

I doubt a zoanoid woman has to become sterile, I think the primary reason women aren't zoaformed is because all of the Zoalords predate the women's right movement.

Remember, Barcus especially is over 400 years old and was thoroughly shocked by Griselda, even more so that she was a Zoalord. But we have to remember he made Waferdanos a Zoalord and Waferdanos was never even human to begin with, he was literally a forest when Barcus first met him.

And removal of the Zoacrystal caused Waferdanos to revert to his original form.

So in comparison he really shouldn't have been surprised, aside from his own personal bias, it's just it really never occurred to him that they should ever zoaform a woman.

Dr. Hekkering on the other hand is a modern man and he never showed any concern other than the fact that his process would seriously shorten Shizu's lifespan to just about 3 years when he turned her into Griselda.

It should also be noted that their should be some serious consequences from sterilization.

A woman's ovaries are as important to her as a man's testicales are to him. Both produce not only the required components for reproduction but also the hormones that shape our bodies and give each of us our character tratis associated with our sex.

Without them our physical traits would be significantly different, especially to someone still in their teens.

So sterilizing her would also effect her overall appearance over time. Since this does not appear to be happening that one could conclude that she hasn't been sterilized. At least not to the point she would stop producing the needed hormones.

Also remember zoaforming was created by the Creators and they intended the entire human race to become their warrior/soldier race. It would not do for the zoaforming process to cause sterilization, very counter productive!

In fact zoanoids did mate with humans, which is why they lasted long enough for the legends of shapeshifters like werewolves to still be around near modern times.

There really isn't anything sex specific in the zoaforming process, the altered genes aren't put on just the Y Chromosome. The entire genome is altered!

Also remember Zoanoids, before X Day at least, had to pass for humans and many didn't know they were zoaformed. So internal organs and such would have to appear the same and nothing short of a DNA test would ever show any abnormalities.

[*Kenji Murakami]

The main theories I use in my fanfics are that females can be optimized, but their forms are designed differently than the forms for males. Also, before X-Day they were a great deal more rare than their male counterparts. There were originally 10 female-type Zoanoids for every 100 of the male type.

As for reproduction, I've mostly gone with the fact that certain traits are tied into chromosomes. If a female and male Zoanoid have a child, then the sex of that child determines the model of Zoanoid that child can be optimized as. Regarding pregnancy, I generally go with the idea that Dr. Balkus – and his ilk, of course – has worked out a sort of hormone-triggered Zoaform-suppressor.

When one of the female Zoanoids is pregnant, they literally cannot transform. The issues with ‘that time of the month’ are a little more interesting. All of the normal functions of that time are intact, it’s just that female Zoanoids get a lot hornier during the times leading up to that time. Doubly so for a female Zoalord, since I figure that the Creators would have wanted to propagate such strong genes if they had stayed.

[*Yom]

Can we consider the lost number Gelpess as a woman ?

[durendal]

It could be possible that Balcus has never bothered to design a Zoanoid in a feminine form. If you notice, all zoanoids are in the shape of male, or could be that Balcus is a male chauvinist.

[*Jess♥]

i guess a zoaform could be produced that has a locking mechanism when pregnancy occurs so that the embryo is not destroyed?

[*zeo]

Yup, or simply not transform during pregnancy.

And durendal that was my point about how old Barcus is, 400 years ago all men were chauvinist by modern standards. It was the norm back then!

His generation would never consider a woman for zoaforming, let alone any high position in Chronos.

But Griselda pretty much proves women can be zoaformed.

Though Yom, we don't know exactly what Gelpess was but it at least shows that a zoaform can take female form and was good enough to fool Sho into thinking it was Mitzuki.

[*Yom]

Also remember zoaforming was created by the Creators and they intended the entire human race to become their warrior/soldier race. It would not do for the zoaforming process to cause sterilization, very counter productive!

I think it causes sterilization, and that's why women are not used for zoaforming.... yet.

[Super Existence]

Gelpess was a shapeshifter and could take any human form. I'm doubting he was female.

I agree with Zeo that as Balcus set up Cronos for Alcanphel he had say so on what was what and being a product of his time and probably utterly set in his ways didn't approve of women in positions of power.

Same goes for many of the other Zoalords, maybe only Guyot and Imakarum might have a bit more of a liberal view coming from Modern day society.

Cronos is a bit of a mens club without the billiards room and port & cigars.

Actually thinking about it are we sure no women are zoanoids?

After X-Day happened Cronos did its best to prove it was a friend to mankind and with modern society the way it is giving only males processing surely would alienate Cronos to a huge percentage of the populace. I'm sure there would be millions of women who would want to be zoanoids.

I've just checked book 23 and when Kahn begins summoning the populace to be fused into his body there isn't one single female amongst them.

I wonder how Cronos would have overcome this issue of one sidedness.

[*Yom]

I agree with Zeo that as Balcus set up Cronos for Alcanphel he had say so on what was what and being a product of his time and probably utterly set in his ways didn't approve of women in positions of power.

It could be possible, but if that's right, why Balcus has given a female the artificial control metal ??!! if this is not a great power, what is it ?

[kyouki]

Maybe Chronos is simply not interested in female zoanoids. If processing a woman is so complicated and a normal woman+male zoanoid = baby zoanoid why would they process women?

Also remember zoaforming was created by the Creators and they intended the entire human race to become their warrior/soldier race. It would not do for the zoaforming process to cause sterilization, very counter productive!

Creators knew how to process a women properly, but maybe uncle Balcus does not. Uncle Balcus said (italian translation of the manga, I noticed it may differs from the english translation) :"I don't know why Alkampfer is affected by lethargy.Creators made Alkampfer, he's not like us." this makes me think uncle Balcus has not a perfect knowledge of Creators science.

[*zeo]

Yes, all Barcus knows about Creator science he learned from the Navigation Spheres that Agito Stole from the Arizona base. But he never had full access to them.

It could be possible, but if that's right, why Balcus has given a female the artificial control metal ??!! if this is not a great power, what is it ?

He didn't give it to her, he was busy still recovering from getting head beamed when it was stolen and activated.

The unit had been stored in a locked vault!

Actually thinking about it are we sure no women are zoanoids?

After X-Day happened Cronos did its best to prove it was a friend to mankind and with modern society the way it is giving only males processing surely would alienate Cronos to a huge percentage of the populace. I'm sure there would be millions of women who would want to be zoanoids.

I've just checked book 23 and when Kahn begins summoning the populace to be fused into his body there isn't one single female amongst them.

I wonder how Cronos would have overcome this issue of one sidedness.

Well that was Japan, women rights haven't quite reached modern standards yet. Also only part of the population had been zoaformed.

There is also the possibility Takaya himself may be against the idea. After all it took him nearly 20 years before trying to bring in a Female Guyver character again and the first time may have been the Anime OAV producer's idea, since G2 as we all know was suppose to be Risker but the Out of Control movie replaced him with Valcura.

[*YoungGuyver]

I think it's possible to process a female, but I think reproduction is the vital key. The Ark is given a habitat, it's probably a long term ship. I'd say that Chronos wants the ability to produce zoanoids from women. That add poster from book 10(?), Jukadan, and the Gregule hitting on Natsuki. I theorize that if a woman stays human, she may be able to breed any type of zoanoid repeatedly.

We also know from Durendal's translations that zoanoid DNA is indeed divided into library like sections within the human genome; was his word for libary 'matrix'? Ir forget exaclty. It would be interesting to know where in the human genome this matrix is installed, it would definetly affect the properties of zoanoids, and would tell us a lot.

Interestingly, we can surmise that Takaya didn't object too much to zoanoids being in Dark Hero. We don't know exactly how much influence he had over it, but they were approved for those movies. So in theory, it is at least possible

[*Yom]

It seems that creating a zoanoid from a woman is just very difficult, and needs an advanced technology.

I don't think that Shin would lie to us !!

[*Jess♥]

No, I agree. Shin is a clever guy, he always seems to have his head screwed on.

I doubt we would find him in any..... 'compromising situations' for example.

[Guest Wyrm]

I wonder how Cronos would have overcome this issue of one sidedness.

By not offering a Zoaform that would appeal to women. At least, to be made into one. As Jukadan demonstrates, there is a female appeal to a Zoaform, but perhaps in only a "RAR! *SNARL* TESTOSTERONE!" type way — they only like 'em on men. Would a woman want to become a hairy/scaly/chitinous thing? NO! She wants a sleek, soft, bodacious Zoaform. And Chronos doesn't offer one.

She wants to do THIS to men:

She doesn't want to do this to men:

I don't think that Shin would lie to us !!

Don't forget: Shin is also pre-Women's Lib.

(And truth to tell, I think he's amazed that a rag-tag group of rebel scum has managed to secure tech advanced enough to make anyone into a Zoalord-equivalent.)

[Toku Warrior]

That's a pretty good point Wyrm.

I guess it would make sense to make a different zoaform process for different genders. The males have pure, raw, powerhouse forms with monsterous looks, with the exception of a few zoalords.

So it would make sense to give the females a bit more of a feminine form...but not to where it wouldn't be able to serve a purpose during a battle.

Griselda pulls this off perfectly. She has a beautiful zoaform yet she is also someone to be careful around when fighting her. She is definently no pushover.

[Guest neon medal]

from what i have read in here and seen i would think they started out on men to process as from Balcus time and the fact you wouldn't miss men disappearing during that time periods on wards.

and then they may have only done the process a few times on women but found it harder to do or they just weren't interested as you have a lot of male inclined types of zoaforms, though that could change if they put themselves onto making a line of female type zoaforms.

the part on reproduction well the Creators wouldn't want to lose there army because the ones zoaformed can't reproduce as sometime certain traits are wanted even though they could recreate them in the lab it would be easier to let nature do this for you. you would also think that the Creators would have used both life forms male and female in there army that way you get full use of the beings you have created so keeping the reproduction ability in both genders would be a must after processing.

though if you read the part on the libertus with the doctor telling agito that he had to remove the reproduction organs to improve the levels of them fully processing.

[Renegade]

I thought this thread was the serious one?

We all know that in reality the way humans evolved requires that women devote at least nine months of their life raising the next generation (likely many more months) and would therefore be reliant on males while preoccupied. As such even before the human race, males have through natural selection gained traits that aided in hunting and killing which is exactly what the Creators were manufacturing. What this tells me is that men are closer to the Creators intended soldiers than women as men have evolved to be more suited to hunting (you could stretch this to fighting). Women would therefore be inferior candidates for modern zoaforming.

Not to mention the complications of keeping a women fertile during the heavy physcial changes that zoaforming requires. Zoaforming a women just seems like a lot of added work.

[Guest Tokusoudeka]

There is also the possibility Takaya himself may be against the idea. After all it took him nearly 20 years before trying to bring in a Female Guyver character again and the first time may have been the Anime OAV producer's idea, since G2 as we all know was suppose to be Risker but the Out of Control movie replaced him with Valcura.

Interesting point that I'd like to expand on a bit.

I doubt that Takaya himself would have been against using a female character as he has shown himself to be quite sympathetic and realistic in his portrayal of Mizuki and Shizu (cultural bias or not). I would agree that a female Guyver may have been the producer's idea, but this change contributed something very adult to the Guyver universe.

If my memory serves me correctly, Valcura's shower scene in the OAV was a sexual metaphor. The unit figuratively (almost literally) raped the host and takes control of her body and mind. The same can be said of other "bonding" scenes (ie Sho). Also recall that Aptom strips Mizuki to goad Sho on earlier in the series. I think this sub-theme adds something to Takaya's original vision of the Guyver as something alien and grotesque. Perhaps it's the expansion on certain the psychological themes rarely found in the "transforming hero" genre?

The sexual metaphors may have been used to hammer in the idea that "power is seductive", but that it is also invasive and harmful. The Guyver's power fed Risker's and Valcura's egoism, and drives Agito's and Guyot's obsessions. People are taken and "optimized" w/o consent or knowledge, their identity and lives destroyed by the introduction of something other into their bodies, minds and lives.

It's intrigues me to think about Griselda and the new Guyver (vol 26) from this perspective. Shizu has clearly sacrificed her own future and humanity for the man she claims to love - Agito. She has no hope of settling down and raising a family. Sho's mother died when he was very young; Agito has no mother either; the Segawa-ryoshin are never shown directly; and Shizu has no one but her grandfather.

I haven't yet thought all of this out, but there is some sort of link between sexual metaphor and these "orphaned" characters. I'm starting to think of Evangalion and other such series that deal with similar themes...

A discussion of possible biological reproduction by the "converted" is a good one, and I guess I'm also interested in discussing birth/rebirth in terms of metaphor for character development.

Takaya is clearly hitting on certain overarching themes like Alienation, Abuse of Power, Personal Responsibility, Death and Rebirth, etc. So how do characters (male and female) fit into these themes? How does Takaya treat gender roles? etc.

Looking forward to your thoughts. (Mods, perhaps this should go into a separate thread?)

Edited July 9, 2008 by Tokusoudeka

[Renegade]

Interesting point that I'd like to expand on a bit.

Takaya is clearly hitting on certain overarching themes like Alienation, Abuse of Power, Personal Responsibility, Death and Rebirth, etc. So how do characters (male and female) fit into these themes? How does Takaya treat gender roles? etc.

Looking forward to your thoughts. (Mods, perhaps this should go into a separate thread?)

Whoa slow down there! This is the Science Lab. Take your literary analysis to another thread. Please do, it's very interesting.

[Guest Tokusoudeka]

Whoa slow down there! This is the Science Lab. Take your literary analysis to another thread. Please do, it's very interesting.

Done. (sorry!)

Please visit http://www.japan-legend.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1394