Do you think the Guyver is Imbalanced?

[H222G981]

Does anyone think that the Guyver is way too over powered?

I do. Maybe not the user seeing as the user has to know how to use it or unlock certain abilities.

But once the user transcends and somehow get's a gigantic and mastered Exceed mode, well....they've hit god mode. 

[Gazham]

Perhaps. Apolloyn doesn't seem like he would struggle against guyver in either form tho. Arcanfel is pretty powerful when he's up and about, if he can return from beyond the event horizon,  he can't be taken lightly.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yes and no.

For a simple " We beat the bad guys! Wooo!" ending... Yeah, there is essentially only 2 people that might be able to fight the Gigantics at all, and one is injured/sickly... And while it seems like we've seen the best the Gigantics can do... We don't actually know that yet either.

But I have a feeling ( and/or hope) that Guyver will not have such a simple ending, which removes the balancing in the first place. It's no longer how much they fight and kill, but how do they achieve peace/best case scenario.

[ROUGE]

I think his Gigantic and Exceed forms may be, but not his regular form. He seems overpowered at first, but if you go back and read or watch all of Sho's fights, for example; then you'll see he often takes quite a beating. To the point where he ends up nearly dying, or actually dying (Enzyme 1). The suit itself has power but depending on its host may be another situation entirely. In terms of power I would say Agito, Lisker, Sho, and then Valkyria. Lisker was certainly better than Sho at first but his unit had a hard time adjusting to his internal structure, which caused his death. However, if by OP you mean its weaponry then perhaps. All of the Guyvers' are equip with the head beam, high frequency arm-blade, gravity ball, and mega smasher. As well as the ability to fly using the orb on the metallic belt, and regenerate. Even regenerating your body from scratch through the control metal alone, so long as it has a piece of its host. It can also connect mentally and sync with the relics left behind by the creators. So yes and no it kind of depends. There hasn't been any new abilities in regular form that stand out as far as being OP, but in its other forms hell yes it's OP! Though that level of power is sort of needed when fighting a Zoalord, they seem to possess almost unlimited amounts of energy due to their crystals. Always turning into giant monsters and whatnot.   

Edited June 1, 2016 by Apollyon

[McAvoy]

In his regular form no. The weapons are very powerful but a Guyver can be killed with conventional modern weapons. 

The Gigantic is a different matter though. 

[*zeo]

15 hours ago, McAvoy said:

In his regular form no. The weapons are very powerful but a Guyver can be killed with conventional modern weapons.

 

Define conventional?

[McAvoy]

Anything really that can blow up tanks. AP or DE rounds can do a lot of damage. Direct hits on a Guyver would seriously damage them. In fact the explosion would create shrapnel that could hit the control medal. 

I term conventional that can be mounted on back of vehicle or dropped or launched from a plane. Daisy cutters/whatever the name of its replacement or battleship guns wouldn't be conventional as they have to installed into specially made platforms. 

Of course all of these weapons have to hit the Guyver. 

[*zeo]

1 hour ago, McAvoy said:

Anything really that can blow up tanks. AP or DE rounds can do a lot of damage. Direct hits on a Guyver would seriously damage them. In fact the explosion would create shrapnel that could hit the control medal. 

I term conventional that can be mounted on back of vehicle or dropped or launched from a plane. Daisy cutters/whatever the name of its replacement or battleship guns wouldn't be conventional as they have to installed into specially made platforms. 

Of course all of these weapons have to hit the Guyver. 

 

I can see a MOAB, Daisy Cutter, and Battleship cannons being pretty effective but not weapons you can mount on regular vehicles... Something like a Humvee with mounted weapons or even a AVC with mounted cannon can't really do much to a tank... So should probably clarify it to be vehicles actually meant to take on tanks... Like a tank, Apache helicopter, etc...

 

The Guyver can easily withstand kinetic strikes that can shatter steel with little effect and intense heat that would vaporize just about any known material... Darzerb breath is 3900 degrees and the head beam barely even singes a Guyver and that's a infrared laser intense enough to rapidly burn through steel.  So Bio-Armor is tough enough that it should take some pretty hefty firepower to cause any serious damage...

 

While the CM is a vulnerability, but it's not exactly fragile either... of the three original units even though all three dormant units were blown up with enough force to send them hurtling hundreds of feet apart from each other but only one cracked...  Mind, Apollon's armor is made of the same material... So random shrapnel isn't likely to be enough...

 

There is also the factor of the unit protecting itself... Head beam can vaporize a bullet in mid-air... Sonic busters can destroy missiles, RPG's, etc before they hit...  Pressure Cannon held can act like a directional shield... and the Hyper Sensors make it very hard to ambush it too...

[McAvoy]

Like I said the weapons have to hit the Guyver.

A 20mm round has nearly 100 times the energy of a 9mm. 20mm can be mounted on back of a Hummer. I think this would be the weapon that could pierce the Guyver's armor. 

[*zeo]

7 hours ago, McAvoy said:

Like I said the weapons have to hit the Guyver.

A 20mm round has nearly 100 times the energy of a 9mm. 20mm can be mounted on back of a Hummer. I think this would be the weapon that could pierce the Guyver's armor. 

 

If the standard is tank armor then no... 20mm isn't enough... Apache Helicopters, Warthogs, etc. are equipped with 30mm in order to be able to take on tanks and even then it takes sustained firing.

 

While keep in mind the Guyver armor doesn't have the same vulnerabilities as man made armor, one of the key factors of effective anti-tank rounds are the incendiary effect but Guyvers are all but incendiary proof and kinetic force that can shatter steel is the kind of kinetic energy that you get from tank range cannon shells.

 

20mm is effective against lighter armored targets but it's not the weapon you use to go after tanks...

 

Consider, the concept of the Guyver is that it was originally some sort of universal spacesuit/armor for the creators... In space you have to deal with things like micro-meteorites, which can hit you with the force of a grenade... The Guyver can clearly withstand a lot more force than a grenade... The Guyver can punch hard enough to penetrate any regular Zoanoid armor and with some effort they can overcome the armor of some hypers...

 

In the Manga, G1 managed to break through Zerebubuth's back armor with maximum force, feet, first, hit... Despite it being impact absorbing enough to withstand the normal Guyver punch...  Logically, the Guyver is tough enough to withstand its own blows... and there's a reason why even Chronos relies on Enzyme based acid to dish out any real damage to the Guyver.

 

There's also the less official example of the OAV, in which Chronos literally fired artillery at G1 and it had no effect... 

 

So while I agree that the Guyver can be damaged by conventional weapons that it still has to be high range weapons above anything we would us on anything short of a heavy tank...

 

Something like that scene in the movie Battleship where they tricked the alien to stand on deck just as they fired the cannon is the ideal situation to do serious harm to a Guyver...

 

 

Preferably point blank to the head ;-p

Followed immediately by a MOAB to keep the body from going out of control...

[McAvoy]

20mm is a example. 20mm is the probably the largest practical weapon you can mount on a non tank. It also has the benefit of not needing electrical power to move it on its pedastal. 

However, 20mm comes with a rate of firepower that can overwhelm targets. Obviously 20mm gatling guns are not practical on vehicles

Anti tank weapons rely on getting past armor before exploding or basically just shooting liquid metal inside of it to severely hurt the people inside. The stream of molten metal creates a hole that is very small. 

A more effective weapon would just be solid AP rounds. 

[McAvoy]

Oh and when the three units took the brunt of the explosion and two survived, and the other I believe slammed into a boulder causing it to dent, isn't that impressive. 

First off, the control medal metal doesn't seem any more durable than real life alloys. Many metals of similar thickness would have similar damage. That explosion was from a high incendiary gernade. I have seen the type of concussion those sort of weapons make, it's not that impressive. 

The other two survived because they landed on their side instead of slamming the control medal into something. 

[*zeo]

16 hours ago, McAvoy said:

Oh and when the three units took the brunt of the explosion and two survived, and the other I believe slammed into a boulder causing it to dent, isn't that impressive. 

First off, the control medal metal doesn't seem any more durable than real life alloys. Many metals of similar thickness would have similar damage. That explosion was from a high incendiary gernade. I have seen the type of concussion those sort of weapons make, it's not that impressive. 

The other two survived because they landed on their side instead of slamming the control medal into something. 

Nope, materials with crystalline structures don't dent... They crack/chip... and btw, even a diamond can crack/chip when hit by a rock at the right angle... It doesn't mean it's always easy to do so however... and if the units are based on organic technology then it matters that those units are older than human history... as that one unit may have just been defective or started to decay from lack of maintenance... Really, show me any man made object made of even the toughest known materials that can survive hundreds of thousands of years and remain in perfect working order?

 

While Apollon's armor is made of the same material and so far has not been damaged despite being in multiple battles.

 

In the Manga, when G1 and G3 met Imakarum for the first time and he blew them out the window, G1 fell all the way down from near the top of that Chronos Skyscraper to the sidewalk below and landed facing down... Now figure that G1 weighs 291kg and calculate how much force he landed with, never mind how hard he was hit by Imakarum... and both his body and CM remained intact... Even if he couldn't stand for a minute and needed Aptom to save him long enough to recover and go Gigantic.

G3 also got blasted again by Imakarum with a hand blast at point blank range... This is after he had already demonstrated he could easily destroy whole building and while full body singed and hurt enough to collapse to the ground G3 was regardless still intact...

 

Darzerb's napalm breath, as noted before is 3900 degrees, and the Guyver can't just shield the CM from fire that engulfs its whole body... So it can clearly take similar intense heat as the rest of the body with no threat of damage... Sorry but not even Titanium, which boils at 3560 K (3287 °C, 5949 °F), can take 3900 degrees but the CM material can...

 

For the armor, even Titanium only has a tensile strength of 434 MPa (Titanium alloy armor plates can raise this to 1,140 MPa, for Titanium ATSM Grade 38)... versus Spider Silk at 1.3 GPa... Lampet Teeth is 3 to 6.5GPa... and that may not be the upper limit to organic based materials as those are low density examples and the Guyver is denser than normal organic matter... So a organic based armor can be many many many times more durable than any present man made armor... So even as thin and light weight as the Guyver is, compared to a actual tank, the armor should be able to take an incredible amount of kinetic energy...  Really, shrugging off impacts that would shatter steel is the kind of force that would turn a normal human wearing full body armor into a liquidated smear with a crater large enough to then bury what's left but the Guyver can take that practically all day long...

 

Mind, also that man made armor has limits like ductility vs tensile strength... Tank armor has to be flexible enough to take repeated strikes but that limits how strong it can be as the alloys we can make get more brittle as we make them stiffer and stronger and is one of the reasons why depleted uranium never gets used in armor designs...

 

But organic structures can be both strong and flexible, which is why they try so hard to replicate the properties of spider silk, etc. as materials that can share those properties can be made into armor far more effective than we have now... but even going against man made tanks it's usually preferable to have a 76mm, and 90mm anti-tank guns... 30mm is just the upper limit for small aerial vehicles... The A-10 actually slows down a few MPH as it's firing its 30mm cannon... and like you said, even that is only used because rounds that penetrate the armor can be used to kill the tank crew rather than actually take out the whole tank but the Guyver isn't that easy to kill...

 

So sure, not indestructible but clearly tougher than you're giving it credit for... 

[McAvoy]

The control medal despite having a crystalline structure dented. The outer casing was dented. In all forms of media Guyver 2 has been shown, the control medal was not cracked but dented. Whatever is under that metal casing is could have been cracked or shock out of alignment or something. 

Falling out of a building usually breaks bones and causes severe trauma to organs. However what we have seen from what Guyver can withstand, falling out of a building is pretty minor in comparison. 

Traditional armor for tanks has always been a hard face with a soft backing. With the hard face supposed to defeat the AP round and the backing being ductile to absorb the impact without cracking.

 

In the anime, Guyver armor shows that it can absorb bullet impacts without ricocheting. Bullets are smaller than fists and obviously behave differently than what energy blasts do. Bullets are meant to pierce. The fact that the bullets in the anime managed to impact within about half an inch into the armor before completely stopping it shows that the armore can be defeated by bullets/rounds should they have enough energy. Like I said, a 20mm round has about 100 the energy of a 9mm. 

The 20mm sized round may not take out tanks but csn certainly take out anything below a tank. In fact they are primarily used in jet fighters. 

[*V Guyver]

Everyone seems to keep forgetting about how some basic common Zoanoids cab handle most conventional weaponry. it took a Gregole getting a direct hit with an M1 Abrams tank tank shell to be taken out. Even so a single Gregole could take out an M1 Abrams on his own, and those that weren't hit directly were able to continue. 

The Guyver is way tougher than a Gregole by many fold, Money is on Guyver. For a tank shell to kill guyver, it's going to have to hit the Control Metal or very close. Body impacts are not going to do much because of how the Guyver armor is. the armor is pretty much stronger than a thick metal support beam, and even if you were were lucky to get a shot off, he has pretty much a weapon or ability to counter such a tactic barring WMD's. 

[*zeo]

18 hours ago, McAvoy said:

The control medal despite having a crystalline structure dented.

No, sorry but that's wrong... You're going by how it looks but a crack/chip can be perfectly smooth as well as jagged.  Crystalline structures also simply don't dent, it's not how the molecular structure behaves...

 

We know from the VDF that the CM is layered and the part that emits all the light is essentially a crystal disk sandwiched between the upper and lower metal layers... If the CM had actually dented then that crystal would have shattered, further disproving the idea the metal was ever dented.

 

Add, if you look closely at the G2 CM, you'd note the damage goes from the upper portion all the way down to the base, but the CM doesn't stick out like a sore thumb and as a rounded object it would not have impacted that rock over a large part of its surface... Especially the dormant unit as the unit itself would have prevented it from hitting at the required angle...

 

So the only way for the damage to spread down that far is if it was a crack/chip type damage, otherwise a dent would be smaller as it reaches the harder to reach base but it's larger for the G2 CM, which is how a spreading crack/chip behaves!

 

While we are talking about alien technology that's far more advance than anything ever man made... Simply being able to withstand 3900 degrees makes it far tougher than anything else on the known periodic table that isn't specifically designed to deflect heat but the Guyver even uses its own body heat to power the head beam so it's heat proof through and through...

 

We also know for a fact that organic designs allow materials to be far stronger than just their material strength.  This is why scientists spend so much time trying to mimic natural designs...

 

While you seem to be comparing only to what man made objects are capable of handling... Things like bending to absorb a impact are not signs of vulnerability but the exact opposite... How a ballistic vest works is by stretching to absorb the impact of a bullet... Smart materials made of nano-materials that can instantly respond to a projectile for next gen body armor that still in the early stages will react much like anime shown both the Zoanoids and Guyver Armor behaving... Initial impact triggers the reactive response as the skin turns into a shell and spreads the impact force even as it absorbs it until the entire surface area is being used...  the end result being multiple times better ballistic protection than modern body armor can provide... but it still will be less advance than a living biological designed armor...

 

Also, keep in mind the Guyver needs to be able to move and flex its limbs... it can't do that if it's just a hard shell... 

 

While even man made tank armor is pretty hard to penetrate... For example, during the second Iraq war in 2003, a Challenger 2 tank became stuck in a ditch while fighting in Basra against Iraqi forces. However, the crew remained safe inside for many hours, the composite Chobham 2 armor protecting them from enemy fire, including rocket propelled grenades...

 

So sure, 20mm is plenty effective against less armored targets... Fighter jets pretty much have zero armor, so 20mm would tear it apart easily but anything with tank like armor is going to take quite a bit more firepower... 

 

Besides, the Guyver is not more vulnerable than a Zoanoid... If hypers can withstand anything up to direct hits from artillery fire then the Guyver should be pretty hard to damage too with conventional weapons...

[McAvoy]

No. In every single depiction of Guyver 2's control medal it has a dent with it being smooth on the edges. The way it's shadowed shows it being dented. There is absolutely no indication that a piece of the control medal broke off. When crystal chips where it could potentially look like a dent there is always some sort of indication of it being jagged big or small. 

The control medal on a dormant unit is below the organism however it is still exposed enough for it to hit a jagged rock, trees or whatever. There is nothing special in that. 

 

[*zeo]

2 hours ago, McAvoy said:

No. In every single depiction of Guyver 2's control medal it has a dent with it being smooth on the edges. The way it's shadowed shows it being dented. There is absolutely no indication that a piece of the control medal broke off. When crystal chips where it could potentially look like a dent there is always some sort of indication of it being jagged big or small. 

The control medal on a dormant unit is below the organism however it is still exposed enough for it to hit a jagged rock, trees or whatever. There is nothing special in that. 

 

Nope, sorry but the G1 unit also hit rocks and did not get damaged... and you're making multiple erroneous assumptions... First, the CM in the anime and early Manga was never detailed enough to tell if there was any jaggedness to the edges.  Besides, crystalline structures don't always chip/crack with jagged edges... least ones you can notice with the naked eye.

 

Second, you're assuming it's even possible it could be dented when that's impossible for anything with a crystalline structure... it simply can't happen!  Crystalline structures don't allow for bending!  They only crack, chip, and shatter... but they absolutely never ever bend!

 

Third, you ignore the fact the CM has been shown to withstand extreme forces... When G1 got hit by sonic pulses capable of shatter steel it was impacting his entire body and thus his CM wasn't protected and it survived just fine under that onslaught... When Darzerb and Aptom mimicking Darzerb used the 3900 degree napalm breath the CM was again fully exposed and withstood what no other natural material on the entire planet could withstand...

 

Fourth, the damage to the CM was larger at the base instead of where the point of impact would have been... again, dents don't work that way!

 

Fifth, in no media has the CM damage ever been described as a dent... Only as damaged...

 

Sixth, for the damage to be remotely considered a dent the object that caused the damage has to be in the shape of the so called dent... There was no such object shape!  Never mind it would have to be both hard enough to damage the CM and still fit within the small space between the CM and the unit as there's no other way for it to be hit at that angle...

 

Seventh, crystalline structures... Like that of Crystal Glass, can chip/crack smoothly... Just to point to one example...  Besides, the early Manga was before Takaya added much the detail work he added later and the anime never showed the CM in a lot of detail... But the OAV did show the CM after it had gotten knocked out of G2's head and it clearly showed the damage went all the way through the base, which a dent would again not have done...

 

Eighth, if it had been dented then the entire CM would have been warped by the dent but the effect of the damage is clearly localized to just the area of direct damage... again, this is the behavior of chipping/cracking and not denting... along with the previous point that the crystal layer between the base and outer metal layers would have been shattered if that had been the case...

 

 

So no, it was never dented!  Like it or not you need a lot more than what it takes to take out a Zoanoid to take out a Guyver...  20mm is fine for standard Zoanoids but Hypers and Guyvers require higher range weapons to be effective.

 

Really, there wouldn't be much point for Chronos to be relying on Zoanoids if they could just grab an off the self conventional weapon to take out the Guyver anywhere near as easily as you're trying to argue...  Never mind use something like the Enzyme Zoanoid to get past the Guyver's defenses if simple firepower was enough... When they got weapons that can easily take out tanks...

[McAvoy]

I am making no assumptions. The control medal is separated into two parts that we can see. If a the surface of the control medal, the outer covering of the control medal was composed of crystalline material, the chip that came off would have not continued to the second layer! Chips do not behave that way! Chips do not not jump from one layer to the other to form a perfect continuation of the damage. No, it would stop at that layer and maybe just maybe a second chip would be made but would not match the other. It could be smaller, it could be bigger, it,could be jagged or not. 

You know what behaves like that? Metal. If two objects separate but connected gets hit they can form a dent that is a continuation from one layer to other. 

Yes dents do behave like that if they are hit in a certain way. 

 

Tell me, show me where you got crystalline structure. Then tell me do they describe the control medal or does it specifically state the outer surface, the part we see is that crystalline? What is the wording?

Does it? 

[Goku]

wow. Too many people discussing something not asked. 

OP asked, is the guyver imbalanced?

The answer is yes if we are talking about Guyver Gigantic Exceed. I don't know why would they even have an exceed mode. If the Guyver can just come to Archanfel/apollon/Zoalord/Guyver Zoalord and blast them to smithereens with his super duper mega gigasmasher then where is the fun in that. 

And we are not even talking about the ultimate cheat code. Those Blades. How long could they go now?

[*zeo]

1 hour ago, McAvoy said:

I am making no assumptions.

Sorry but that's all you've been doing... Absolutely nowhere has it ever been stated that the CM was dented, it has only ever been stated as simply damaged... 

 

Really, if the CM can be dented then why the hell didn't it get further dented when G1 punched it full force?  The Guyver can punch hard enough to punch through a standard Zoanoid and that's a heck of a lot harder than falling and hitting a rock!

 

Simple physics, a free falling dormant unit doesn't have much mass/momentum to create that powerful of a impact but a fully functional Guyver with a running punch (even a standard Zoanoid can reach speeds up to 200 kmph and the Guyver is definitely faster than a standard Zoanoid) backed by the momentum enhancers multiplying his momentum energy by a factor of 10x translates to a heck of a lot more kinetic energy being directed right on the G2 CM but aside from some sparks there was no visible additional damage... The entire CM just pops out and doesn't fall apart until after it hits the ground...

 

The CM is also composed of 5 pieces... G2's CM damage spread from the upper center orb and spread to a larger portion on the bottom/outer ring all the way through its base... The crystal ring is recessed within the bottom/outer ring, which was also damaged... If it was a dent then that means it would have been pushed right into the crystal ring and damaged it outright, cracking and shattering it, which would have instantly caused the CM to fail but as that did not happen that's a clear indication that it wasn't a dent...

 

 

The CM is also clearly recessed in the dormant unit and the base extends into the organism layer with the armor plates clasped around the bundled organism and bracing the CM... Meaning it's highly unlikely anything could hit it other than a glancing blow that should have been isolated to the center/top orb but the fact it isn't and the damage goes all the way through the bottom/outer ring also leads to disproving the dent theory of yours...

 

While if you read the translation of book 30... Shin states the Control Metal is the "Crystallisation of the Advent Intellect"...  Logically, the function of the CM also suggests it has a crystalline structure to function like it does... and while less official, other media like the Live Action movies also states this...

 

Really, it's only called a metal because it looks like metal but it's actually a super advance alien technology that functions like a computer powerful enough for limited A.I., can store all the memories and DNA of the host, and everything it needs to control and use the organism to create the Guyver... It's in no way shape or form simply just a lump of metal...

[Goku]

for the love of God. Is there a admin in here?
OP didn't ask about control medal and its composition, even remotely. 

 

[*zeo]

1 hour ago, Goku said:

wow. Too many people discussing something not asked. 

OP asked, is the guyver imbalanced?

The answer is yes if we are talking about Guyver Gigantic Exceed. I don't know why would they even have an exceed mode. If the Guyver can just come to Archanfel/apollon/Zoalord/Guyver Zoalord and blast them to smithereens with his super duper mega gigasmasher then where is the fun in that. 

And we are not even talking about the ultimate cheat code. Those Blades. How long could they go now?

Whether something is imbalanced depends on how exactly they are balanced, which we can only judge by accurately assessing what the character is actually capable of...

That said, it depends... If Apollon is as powerful as Archanphel was in his prime then the Exceed is not over powered...

 

To put it simply, the so called meteor the creators sent towards Earth that Archanphel destroyed was calculated to be about the size of Mars... Meaning Archanphel in his prime had the power to destroy a small planet and to date the Exceed has never demonstrated that level of power...

 

If Archaphel is restored and Apollon is also just as powerful then that means the Exceed would then have to defeat two beings capable of destroying planets and Sho at least will never risk that kind of collateral damage in battle, handicapping what he'd be willing to do... Though, that could be why the Manga now has two Exceeds...

 

If, however, Apollon is less powerful and Archaphel never gets restored then the Exceeds could be over powered... assuming there are no vulnerabilities discovered or new element to the story introduced...

 

Though, there remains the 3rd possibility that the Creators are still around and somehow realize the Earth still exists...

[*zeo]

5 minutes ago, Goku said:

for the love of God. Is there a admin in here?
OP didn't ask about control medal and its composition, even remotely. 

 

You do know that when judging whether a character is balanced that things like whether they have vulnerabilities are factors to be considered?

 

This is also a series with characters that can have powerful abilities... Apollon using Yensui's dimensional slice ability to slice off the Exceed's hands being a prime example where a otherwise lesser character can still pose a threat to a more powerful character...

 

Thus understanding the specifics of how every aspect of the character stacks up to what it has to face in the story is relevant to answering the question of the OP!

 

 

[Goku]

5 minutes ago, zeo said:

You do know that when judging whether a character is balanced that things like whether they have vulnerabilities are factors to be considered?

 

This is also a series with characters that can have powerful abilities... Apollon using Yensui's dimensional slice ability to slice off the Exceed's hands being a prime example where a otherwise lesser character can still pose a threat to a more powerful character...

 

Thus understanding the specifics of how every aspect of the character stacks up to what it has to face in the story is relevant to answering the question of the OP!

 

 

wow. That sounds staggering. Where can i read (or watch) about where Apollon cuts off Exceeds hands?