Global Warming

[Mirabilis]

I have had this on my mind for sometime now. I know some people actually think that we are going to drown because heat waves are melting the polar ice glaciers and we have to do something or we'll die! Ok I understand that, but what gets me is that people are blaiming vehicles and factories for the problem. Its like they are all pointing fingures and not trying to solve the issue. My brother has this shirt from hot topic, that has a picture of an ice pop melting with the sun in the background, and it says "I Hate Global Warming" thats pretty much how I see this issue. I have gotten in debates with some students about it, because we had an assignment to persuade me to believe in global warming, but they failed to do so.

If you beleive in Global Warming and have a better understanding of it, then high school students, can you please elborate on this situation. I already have a very strong understanding of it, but I just cant see how a factory or smoke from a car could "Change the physical features of an entire planet".

Edited May 12, 2009 by Mirabilis

[*Jess♥]

the thing is, they have showed studies and it has shown that global temperature has peaked in hte last century or so.

the amount of 'peak-ing' is disproportionate to the amount of any heat peaks in the past as evidenced by levels of oxygen in certain protozoa or something like that, it's some evience they were using anyhow.

they have looked at multiple sources of evidences and it showed a substantial increase in global temperatures since the industrial age.

this is what i believe to be circumstantial evidence and also incomplete. now, looking at this evidence as it stands, it is pretty easy to draw teh conclusion that the industrial age is responsible, but there is no direct evidence that humanity and our machines are responsible for a global warming that is likely to continue and cause environmental damage.

in fact, there has been many controversy over this and there have been independant studies that contradict the study that was performed by the government agencies.

[LordSpleach]

I think its possible, and polution is part of the problem. The reason I believe this is because we have enough nukes to 'overcook' planet many times over.

[*Jess♥]

what strikes me as odd is the existence of two issues.

on one hand you have global warming, the earth having more heat energy in the atmosphere than before, and on hte other hand, there is teh 'energy crisis' that people are predicting with oil being finite, why is it that the two are not linked?

we are running out of energy sources, yet more energy is being retained in the atmosphere.

we need some way of extracting ambient heat energy from the atmosphere.

it would certainly help on hot days, making our houses cooler and it would also give us extra energy to use.

[LordSpleach]

Problem is I don't think anyone has look into that yet, they're probably thinking geothermal not aerothemal. Good idea, we just need to invent something that act likes Zx-tole's wings(just to give an example).

Also check out this article: http://green.yahoo.com/news/afp/20090512/w...eindonesia.html

[Mirabilis]

I agree with your first staement ryuki. I think the evidence that says factory and aotumobile gases are responsible for global warming, is only circumstantial. This is my biggest reason as to why I disagree with the statements of machinery being the source of the problem. Volcanic eruptions. Yes, 1 single volcanic eruption pollutes the air 100's of 1,000's of times, more then ALL the aotumobiles and ALL the facotories polluted the air, ever. People say that machinery is responisble, yet I dont see the clouds or sky black for 100s of 1,000's of miles, its not raining ash, and the air isnt toxic to breath.

I believe that the earth is just going through a climate shift, and thats exactly what its doing. There were no factories or cars when the ice age hit, the earth just had a climate shift. There were no facotires when the Ica Age ended and the ice caps melted, it was a climate shift. And thats what is happening now, a climate shift. Not factories melting the ice, not cars ruining our oxygen, the earth is haveing a climate shift and even if we wanted to stop it, we couldnt. Cause it happenes every so many years.

I just think that the whole Global Warming issue is just for plotical purposes, for leaders to get the people to buye certain items, or vote for them, or to move the groud to do something they want. But then again...this is only my perspective.

[*Jess♥]

I think the evidence that says factory and aotumobile gases are responsible for global warming, is only circumstantial.

no.

there is no evidence that 'says' such a thing. be very careful not to mislead or be misled.

the evidence allows a suggestion that the raise in global temperatures may be exacurbated by the activity of mankind in the last hundred years or so.

however it is evidence of a recent abnormal peak in temperature.

it is people that say it is due to exhaust fumes etc. people. not evidence.

[durendal]

Or it could be a sign that our Sun is evolving. Has anybody ever bothered to measure the current size of the sun and the current distance of Earth to the sun? Has anyone even bothered to measure the temperature of the sun outside of our atmosphere and compared it with the temperature before?

[Mirabilis]

Ryuki with his always supior wisdom

What would have been more accurately for me to say, is the things people say is evidence is only circumstantial. Gas fumes etc.

And durendal has a good point. Last year in my bio class, we learned that in about 2 billion years in the future or so, the earth is suppose to collide with the sun. And every year we get about a cm to inch (I dont know if that is the correct measurement) closer to the sun. Or something like that. I dont know the exact distance, but we learned that every year we do get closer to it, so perhaps thats what determines a climate shift?

I mean, perhaps their are certain layers of heat waves, kinda like the ozone layer for the earth, and every time we go through one of those layers the earth gets a climate shift, and then when we go through another layer, we get another climate shift. But perhaps it takes a very long time to get from one layer to the next, which is why it takes so long for the earth to have a climate shift. Perhaps this explains the past climate shifts? I dont know, I am just throwing out some ideas and theories. I am sure there is alot of things wrong with my statements and conclusions. I am positive someone will tell me how this wouldnt work.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Mirabilis

[*Jess♥]

we could measure the suns temperature from outside the atmosphere, but the problem now is that we wouldn't have any data from the past.

i guess we could see a steady increase if one existed. but it wouldn't tell us if that was unusual. (the earth may naturally drift closer and then further away from the sun, or the sun might have steady raise and then decrease in temperature.)

one thing i would point out is resolution.

if you look at the earth from space, you see a load of green and brown and you see a steady gradation as forest turns to desert. if you are on the ground on the other hand, you will see various clumps of bushes and grass, and various patches of barren land. it's not a steady gradation.

this illustrates if you see something from a low resolution, it smooths everything out.

there may have been many many peaks in the past, but due to the way scientists measure data, they can't see that much detail and so they only see a blurred version.

we all should know that the earth was much hotter when the dinosaurs were alive.

[Guest IC Ominae]

1) We do not have enough nukes to kill everybody on the planet or to seriously mess with the planet.

In actual fact the reality is everybody could shoot their nukes into Alaska with with no real overlap and still leave territory that hasn't been hit. The principle is more along the lines that you can slice off enough of the critical infrastructure with relatively precise strikes to effectively destroy a country. A full salvo is projected to create a "Nuclear Autumn" but not to come even close to killing everyone.

2) We do have some technologies now that can scrub carbon emissions, and actually generate a return on investment. Algae farms using the CO2 to turbocharge their growth have been isolated that can be parted into animal feed and stock for ethanol and biodiesel. These have at present been tested on both Natural Gas turbine and Coal Fired Powerplant designs by a company called Greenfuel. The promise of this technology given the radically turbocharged growth is ability to actually produce sufficient biofuel feedstock.

3) At present biofuels still manage to have the same underlying problem as the other technologies. You have to put in more power processing then you will get out when using it, and that's on top of the photosynthesis based energy. Certain applications such as Aerospace however need these kind of high energy density fuels, and ease of tanking in addition to minimal hazardous waste makes me favor this solution to fossil fuels over the alternatives. YMMV

4) It seems to be true that the politicians have a stake in using this to their advantage. They have used it to increase their power over businesses and individuals.

5) Nuclear power, forest development, and other solutions had been avoided for dubious reasons by the signers of the Kyoto treaty. Further Europe has not succeeded in reducing emissions to date, except for when the inherited Soviet factories and shut them down. Recent developments may change this but otherwise this has only succeeded in hurting their economies, which is why America has had nothing to do with it.

6) As with most environmental regulations in practice such constrictive policies will encourage businesses to simply shift assets to those who do not care about compliance, and in order to maintain competitiveness this trend will tend to be followed.

7) There are those who argue we were warmer during the Mideavil Warming Period which was a period of great development in agriculture and other sectors. As these people have succeeded in causing their better connected opponents to have to abandon faulty models and data repeatedly it is worth giving them some credence. The most recent victory my recollection being the hottest year was in the 1930s in the middle of the Great Depression, and the Nike Swoop graph's algorithms were rigged to the point it would be outputted from random data input.

8) Increased CO2 levels are having an effect on the reefs regardless of other factors. So even if Global Warming is bunk there is a worthwhile reason to be concerned with CO2 levels.

Or it could be a sign that our Sun is evolving. Has anybody ever bothered to measure the current size of the sun and the current distance of Earth to the sun? Has anyone even bothered to measure the temperature of the sun outside of our atmosphere and compared it with the temperature before?

One of the strikes against the Human Caused GW lobby is that Mars has been observed to be getting hotter. Another is that the reading stations have been intentionally messed with by having the post's AC units venting on them beyond the factor of encrouching urban landscape creating microclimates. Plus a large number of Soviet stations have been taken off line messing with the computations. Some have argued there is no warming based off countries whose ground based measuring stations who have recorded no warming. Actually there's a whole story about why they shifted to "Climate Change" as terminology instead of "Global Warming" because it flipped on them.

What's actually going on isn't necessarily clear right now, because it's clear there is some degree of intentional tinkering going on. At the same time there have been distinct shifts in climate patterns. I've seen whether CO2 is even a driver of the system being questioned, and the Greenhouse theory successfully challenged by showing the trick was primarily driven by trapping hot air instead of photons.

Edited May 14, 2009 by IC Ominae

[Mirabilis]

we all should know that the earth was much hotter when the dinosaurs were alive.

Have you ever heard of a "Heat Dome" ryuki?

[*Jess♥]

we all should know that the earth was much hotter when the dinosaurs were alive.

Have you ever heard of a "Heat Dome" ryuki?

I'm not sure. I've heard of eco-domes. is that the same thing?

[Mirabilis]

lol, i dont know what an eco dome is but i'll tell u what a heat dome is. Here in the states, actaully about two hours away from where i live, their is/are heat domes. Heat domes are like a large area that is inside of a giant dome, and inside of it the raise the temperatures. I am told that the temperature is equall to that of when the dinosaurs where around, here in texas they put a rattle snake in there and it lost all of its venom and it grew HUMUNGOUS! Also i'll have to talk to my friend again about the specifics but apparently a girl fell in awell and broke her legs to the point that they had to be cut off, but someone said put her in the heat dome and she'll be fine. So the parents did and her legs healed pretty good. So the Dr.'s could work on her from there.

[*Jess♥]

lol, i dont know what an eco dome is but i'll tell u what a heat dome is. Here in the states, actaully about two hours away from where i live, their is/are heat domes. Heat domes are like a large area that is inside of a giant dome, and inside of it the raise the temperatures. I am told that the temperature is equall to that of when the dinosaurs where around, here in texas they put a rattle snake in there and it lost all of its venom and it grew HUMUNGOUS! Also i'll have to talk to my friend again about the specifics but apparently a girl fell in awell and broke her legs to the point that they had to be cut off, but someone said put her in the heat dome and she'll be fine. So the parents did and her legs healed pretty good. So the Dr.'s could work on her from there.

how do you find out about that?

I looked for some info on it and found nothing

[*YoungGuyver]

I just find it weird that a couple decades ago, we were told that there would be global warming due to pollutants, and now we barely have a winter here. When someone warns you that something is going to happen, and it actually DOES happen, you might have a tendency to believe them

[RazorLaser]

Don't believe it.

[*Jess♥]

on the other hand, there is the really cool summers we have been having here.

[durendal]

Pehaps it's not Global Warming per se, but more of a "global repositioning". Some areas seem to be hotter than usual, while on some parts, they are experiencing a colder environment.

[Salkafar]

Last year in my bio class, we learned that in about 2 billion years in the future or so, the earth is suppose to collide with the sun. And every year we get about a cm to inch (I dont know if that is the correct measurement) closer to the sun. Or something like that. I dont know the exact distance, but we learned that every year we do get closer to it, so perhaps thats what determines a climate shift?

You people are going to kill me some day.

As for global warming: it may be a natural cycle, but there is a factor here now that never was here before. Us. People say things like "Volcanoes spit out much more pollution". Yeah. Unfortunately the volcanoes don´t stop erupting now that we are here. And another thing: We don´t stop. We pollute the world all the time without a break. If anything, it´s getting worse as our population grows. I remember fairly vividly when it said on the front page of the news papers that the five-billionth human being had been born. The world´s population has increased by 20% within my lifetime - and I am not old. If that doesn´t scare you, frankly I do not know what will.

Anyway, yes! I think global warming is real, and that it is affected by what humans do. It seems just a little goofy to assume it does not. There is such a thing as erring on the side of caution.

Let´s make it into a Pascal-type wager.

Option 1: Human interference has nothing to do with global warming. We do nothing and the world floods, causing immense destruction worldwide.

Option 2: Human interference has nothing to do with global warming. We try to stop it, but the world floods anyway, causing immense destruction worldwide in spite of our best efforts.

Option 3: Human interference does indeed affect global warming. We do nothing and the world floods, causing immense destruction worldwide.

Option 4: Human interference does indeed affect global warming. We act on it and the world does not flood, or floods much less, greatly stemming the tide of destruction.

Hmmm. Seems there is only one possible way to stem the tide of destruction and that is acting as if our behaviour affects global warming.

[Tales]

Well this topic is now the hottest ticket in communities.. Even my own forum has a topic on the subject.

[durendal]

[Mirabilis]

That pretty muh sums it up right Durendal? lol, i always get a kick out of Global Warming jokes.

In regards to the heat dome, some people have asked about it, and in fact i was wrong, its not called a heat dome its...well i forgot what its called i'll have to ask my friend again.

And in regards to what i posted about colliding in the sun what we learned in bio class. I was just stating what are teacher was teaching us, watching videos and that sort of thing. Is it true? Only god knows that, i mean anyone can say anything, write anything, or make a movie of anything. Does it mean its true, just because someone says it is, and they did a whole documentary on it? Not necesisarly, take "Lose Change" for example, a great work of art, makes sense, the whole thing gots you believeing it, but then you watch "Obessesion" and the two films completely negate each other. Honestly, I don't know which one to believe because they both make logical sense and reasoning.

But back on topic, so Global Warming, i'm having a hard time understanding your Option 4 Salkafar, i mean, I dont mean any disrespect, so could you elborate a little? Here's where i'm getting confused, your saying that man kind is responsible for global warming, ok i got that, but we can stop national disasters, hows that? I mean just take a look at the last several Hurricanes, America did its bests efforts to stop it, but it still was a national disaster. How would we stop a giant flood, but just shutting down all the machines that produce Gas Fumes?

[*Jess♥]

somebody passed this on to me.

[*YoungGuyver]

Ok, here is a link to a series of articles that explains global warming, and dispells the myths about it (such as why your pic isn't exactly a direct comparrison and explanation of global warming)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11462-climate-change-a-guide-for-the-perplexed.html

If it were the sun causing global warming, we would notice an affect on all planets, and not just 3-with one of those being debatable, another explainable, with the last being us.