God and the Big Bang

[The Luna Diviner]

Ok, so before i begin talking, i want to first say, if you are religious, I’m not challenging what you believe as part of your religion. I'm not saying there is no God, and I’m not saying you should believe so either.

Now, this is kinda long, but i feel there’s a huge area of discussion here, so please bear with me.

So the topic is pretty self-explanatory, how do God and the Big Bang work with one another, or does one disprove the other. Some of you might know that last Sunday Discovery channel had a new show on called Curiosity that talked about this very topic. After watching it, it raised some questions in me that I’ve thought about before, but now have a little more material to wield in the discussion. If you saw the show, great, if not, I’ll summarize the important parts to this debate.

Basically, we all know the big bang, the start of our universe used to be an incredibly small area (smaller than a proton) with huge density that exploded out into everything that exists in the universe today. So, What told the big bang to go off, and what existed before it? The explanation that was provided in the show was; nothing. Nothing existed before the big bang, because time didn’t exist before the big bang. And here’s why.

Think of a black hole, it’s a star that collapsed on itself and now has such a huge gravitational field that no light can escape. Science poses the thought that such incredibly gravity would have an effect on time. If gravity is that powerful in a condensed area like a black hole, than time cannot flow. Essentially, time stops within a black hole. Not around it, but actually inside the center of the mass of the black hole. So if the properties of a black hole are that a huge area of mass has collapsed on itself, than that is akin to what existed before the big bang. All of our universe, and infinitely huge space, existed in an area that was smaller than a proton. That’s really small, and if so much mass was inside such a small area, than there would be massive gravity (even more so than a black hole, the most powerful gravity field in known existence today) inside that small area that everything existed in, and with such massive gravity, there could be no time.

So time didn’t exist before the big bang, and if there was no time (proposes the TV show) than there could be no God acting upon anything, because there was no time to be in. Because there was no time, there could be nothing.

This, however, brings me to my discussion in an effort to take things one step further.

Why does God need time to exist in? He is supposedly supernatural, why would time have an effect on him. Clearly, he doesn’t age, he doesn’t die, so would our laws of time exist on him? I would say not. But that is possible that without time, there couldn’t be anything at all, because technically everything hasn’t started yet.

Also, if there isn’t a God, what told the big bang to explode? The show proposed that, like protons in anything on earth, the proton sized object that was before the big bang simply popped into existence. There was nothing, then there was that small proton like object, then there was the big bang, then there was everything. But what caused that one proton sized object to appear? Can you accept that it simply just showed up out of the blue? Or was it truly a God that time doesn’t affect that said "now this proton will appear and everything will be created from that" (it wasn’t a proton, but for lack of a better word). If you don’t accept that it was God, than what did it?

I would like to talk about this because it really does fascinate me. What existed before everything existed?

Edited August 10, 2011 by The Luna Diviner

[*Jess♥]

according to the theory of time starting at the big bang, there is no such thing as 'before the big bang' .

if you really need to try and imagine it, then think of the big bang as an infinite event, that if you try and follow a scale of time and go to a time before the big bang, all you will find is 'more' of the big bang (actually the same). you can try and go further back in time but there is nothing but the beginning.

anyway, that's just a way to understand that concept.

at the end of the day, I'm with you on this;

god is not subject to the laws of physics as they are currently described.

god created everything (in so far as you believe in god) including the laws of physics and time itself.

how could god create time? if there was no time, then how could god have performed any actions.

well it's simple. man cannot understand god. this is why so many scientists and atheists can say that god cannot exist or that god doesn't exist, it's because none of us can possibly understand or truly comprehend god.

things that 'disprove' god actually prove god. and so on, it is all so complicated and simple at the same time.

I'm not saying that I believe in 'god'. but i hope you understand the things i am trying to say.

in case you are interested, I have a mix of thoughts that follow animistic ideas, panentheist ideas, and also things that are not really possible to put into words.

and of course I adhere to scientific ideas.

[durendal]

Well, here's my take on the bigbang and God. To put is simply, God just snapped his fingers and the Bigbang happened. Like how Ryuki explained, God didn't need time to exists.

To further dwell into the details, I believe that the there was a catalyst to the Big Bang. Before the Big Bang, there was the great void. But the void must have come from somewhere. This might possibly be the effect of an alternate universe imploding. Meaning, that old universe was collapsing leaving nothing but the void, that all atoms imploded into one single particle, which was the single atom needed for the Big Bang to happen.

In that last universe, life forms have evolved into the ultimate higher being. The last survivor of this old universe has their own physiology so advance that they would be able to survive the destruction of the universe. With the infinite wisdom that they have acquired through the countless eons of evolution, they have merged into one single being. Learning of the impending destruction to their own universe, since they are unable to save it, they deemed that it would be appropriate to use the energy from the destruction of the old universe, channel it into one single atom and create a new universe anew. They knew that creating this process would take another eon to fully evolve into a new universe, thus they put into place restrictions to control the evolution of the young universe, which we call today the law of physics. In order to create a new race to propagate and evolve, they also created self evolving organisms that would one day gain sentience and take on the responsibilities of becoming the caretakers of the new universe. These evolved being have many names, but they are commonly referred to as gods by their creations.

Okay, that last paragraph was something I made up, but it still has the same principle behind the cause of the big bang which I believe in.

[The Luna Diviner]

In that last universe, life forms have evolved into the ultimate higher being. The last survivor of this old universe has their own physiology so advance that they would be able to survive the destruction of the universe. With the infinite wisdom that they have acquired through the countless eons of evolution, they have merged into one single being. Learning of the impending destruction to their own universe, since they are unable to save it, they deemed that it would be appropriate to use the energy from the destruction of the old universe, channel it into one single atom and create a new universe anew. They knew that creating this process would take another eon to fully evolve into a new universe, thus they put into place restrictions to control the evolution of the young universe, which we call today the law of physics. In order to create a new race to propagate and evolve, they also created self evolving organisms that would one day gain sentience and take on the responsibilities of becoming the caretakers of the new universe. These evolved being have many names, but they are commonly referred to as gods by their creations.

Okay, that last paragraph was something I made up, but it still has the same principle behind the cause of the big bang which I believe in.

Actually, its funny you mention that. I'm working on an idea for one of my books that plays into that very concept. Its almost exactly the same idea, in the sense that I explain away the god of the universe in the book as being a survivor of whatever was before the big bang of our time. I'm taking God, Death, and Fate as two brothers and a sister that survived something (not sure how i was going to do it yet) and eventually make our universe with certain laws in effect so that things couldnt unfold like they did in their universe, and it just so happens that we label them as gods for their powers which, to them, was just second nature. Thats a funny coincidence.

Ryuki, I'm like you in that i have a sort of mixed set of views about god and the universe. I'm not one specific religion, but i cant fully, 100% say that i dont believe in god. Do i believe in a Christian God that is all knowing and looking out for everyone? No, becuase my life has proven otherwise. But at the same time, i cant say that i accept that there isnt something. I also adhere to the laws of science, but i cant fully say i dont believe SOMETHING or maybe someone put them into effect.

Lets look at evolution for a moment as it relates to God. Evolution is an extremely complicated process (maybe not for us to understand, but for an organism to actually go through over time) that changes the very nature of something into something else in order to survive. How do you explain how evolution started however. Perhaps this next view is just an extension of my lack of understanding, but i believe that something had to put the laws of evolution into effect. Did, one day on Earth, the last universal common ancestor of everything decide it was going to undergoe evolution? Was evolution that organisms choice? Or was this complicated process of change written into the first DNA of the LUCA? And if it was alwyas predetermined, how did that come to be? Just a coincidence? I'm not sure. I cant explain it away, therefore i give it the explination that some kind of something, be that an etheral man, or some other type of god, wrote that into the LUCA's DNA code.

Anyway, i digress, as to the universe. Ryuki: You say there is nothing but the begining, but my question from before was, how was it the begining. I know that may not make alot of sense, and i'm having trouble finding the words to describe it, but lets look at this analogy to try and explain. You pick up a book, the cover is technically the begining. Everything starts with you looking at that cover that holds the book together. Then there is the first page. But that wasnt technically the begining, because an Author wrote those words, created that book, thought that cover etc. In my opinion, think of the big bang as that first page, and God (or whatever alternative explination for the begining) that is the author. How can there simply be nothing before everything? What was there? I have trouble accepting that there was simply nothing, but at the same time, there had to be nothing at one point, even if there was a universe before ours, what was before that? This is the fascination with this topic, and im glad were discussing it.

Lastly: If, hypothetically, we were to say that god did create everything, including the laws of physics, and we accept the fact that those aformentioned laws dont affect him, then how would he have created them. Do humans create anything without the incentive to do so? no, there is always some kind of acting force that compells us to do something, some kind of inspiration. So if the laws of the universe dont apply to god, and he made us in his image, why do they apply to us? What was his inspiration for making those laws?

[durendal]

Aha. I spotted two topics in your post that I would like to discuss.

Topic 1. With what you said about evolution, I believe that change is inborn in all living organisms, which is hard-coded into their DNA. However, in order to jumpstart this DNA, a catalyst had to be made. That is where environment kicks in and the ability of the organism to adapt. I believe that evolution is not a trait of an organism, but as a result from the combination of the ability to adapt and environmental factors present.

Topic 2. God as a beginning. Now, asking what was before God, we would be asking where God came from. In terms of religious thinking, we would simply say that he is all powerful and he simply exists before everything else, a being who was everything before everything else. But scientific curiosity refuse to accept this logic. Using creative analogy and logic, we would come to the conclusion of what we have just discussed, which puts God as the last survivor of the old universe.

My theory on this is that there is no such thing as the ultimate beginning. If time can be viewed as a spiral line, then the exact beginning of time would be the exact end of time, forming a constant loop which substantiate the universe. The moebius strip theory. If the black hole can be considered as a port to the negative zone, then the negative zone is the parallel of our universe in the next cycle of the universe.

Speaking heretically, God didn't create man, but man created God. Man sees himself as a weak being and needs to affirm their own existence by creating a higher power that they can look upon to strengthen themselves. They attribute unexplainable phenomenon as the work of God, simply to satisfy the need for explanation. Even before the dawn of time, a single monolith is considered as a deity by the early ancestors of man.

[Aether]

i suppose its good to excercise the mind and contemplate these things, but you have to understand that no one will ever know. to discuss what came before the big bang is improbable. and even if it wasnt impossible you are still left with more questions than answers. really its like meditation - one ought not to think.

Everything we are talking about is to some degree false because we can only experience the universe through a human mind. our brains are wired to percieve the universe as we humans see it, not necessarily how it is.

on Durendals theory its a good one, and i think its feasable in some way but even so it still leaves many fundamental questions unanswered, it just creates macrocosmic questions to our microcosmic big bang question. what created the reality that the creators inhabited? who created their big bang ? its just an infinite loop of ????

you have what did the big bang exisit within? what did it expand into? how can it expand into anything if it is all that is contained in one point? its just paradox after paradox .

round my way we call this 'headpopping'. it 'pops your head' to think of it.

i dont really believe in an Anthropomorphic god (seems a bit anthropocentric to me) or even a non human type 'being' that transcends everything and sat down to create everything, i dont know why it just doesnt sit right with me. even if we were in a scenario like durendal described it, it still leaves the bigger questions. maybe im wrong , maybe im right?

i believe everything is everything, we are all part of it and it is all part of us. and maybe its a get out clause or a way to ease my poor fragile human mind but ive said it before and i guess i will say it again - is that all you need to know is that you'll never know it all.

[The Luna Diviner]

I wasnt in this to find difinative answers, only get others opinions on the very things we could never answer. The fact that its all speculation only makes it that much better, becuase anything is possible. Even still, think of Steven Hawking, who was the one who created the time starting with the big bang theory i described earlier. At one point, we didnt know that theory, we didnt know there was no time before the big bang, and now hes created that theory to explain things. So just because we have no answers now, doesnt mean there arent answers out there to find.

I would agree with Durendal's time loop theory. It would make sense if, for an undescribable amount of what we perceieve as time, things have just been looping over and over again. That, to me, makes a good bit of sense. When one thing ended, another began. When our universe ends, another will begin. And if we think about this for a moment, the big bang might be able to be explained away in that. So again, bear with me. we talked about the big bang being akin to a black hole. So lets look at how a black hole is made through the life of a star. A normal star, like or sun, goes supernova, gets bigger, eventually gets too big after becoming supermassive, and collapses back on itself to reform a smaller object, ie a black hole. Our universe is ever expanding at a pretty decent rate, so perhaps one day it too will recollapse into itself and shrink back down to the big bang sized proton that existed before everything, and then re-explode. This would create a certain loop, although not the specific loop from before. However, Hawking's theory states that small particles like protons can, in fact, jump into and out of existance if they so please. I'm not sure how that works, but he states it was possible for the tiny object that was the big bang to simply have jumped into existance. If our universe collapsed back down into its previous, small form, it could essentially jump into existance elsewhere, into say, a parallel universe, like Durendal was saying. So the proton sized big bang jumped into another universe, and explodes again for another ten billion years, than jumps to another parallel universe, and over the course of maybe 100 billion years (ten jumps, during which, time doesnt exist in our universe because there is nothing in it) it eventually ends back up in ours, explodes again, and then starts the loop over. This, however, returns me to my question from before. What started the loop? At one point, even if you go back 100 billion years, or even further, if you go back trillions of years, what was the first universe that started the loop, and where did it come from? I know we cant ever have an answer, but speculation of difficult concepts keeps our minds fresh. We have the entertain possibilities to foster imagination, lest we become dull and boring.

As for evolution; It cant take place without environment. An organism evolves to adapt itself to changes in its situation. If the environment doesnt change, then it wont adapt until it needs too. However, all organisms have the option to do evolution written in their genetic code. Even you and me. Our offspring wont be the next generation, but if we were forced to adapt to an environment before breeding, than the evolutionary chain would have already started within our genes, in which it would be passed to our offsprings, whose genetic adaptation for evolution would be active, and over 100,000 years or so of constant acting upon by the environment, we could adapt into something entierly different than we are now. So yes, a catalyst must be present in order for evolution to take place, but more of what i was trying to get at was, what wrote the ability to do evolution into our DNA. The environment may trigger it, but what gave us the ability to do so in the first place.

[*Jess♥]

So the proton sized big bang jumped into another universe, and explodes again for another ten billion years, than jumps to another parallel universe, and over the course of maybe 100 billion years (ten jumps, during which, time doesnt exist in our universe because there is nothing in it) it eventually ends back up in ours, explodes again, and then starts the loop over.

this is interesting, it sounds similar to another thing i said elsewhere. that our big bang was like the ripples on the surface of a pond, caused by a stone being thrown in. the stone is o longer within our reality, but the effects of the stone are what make up the fabric of reality. just something to think about.

anyway, some things that seemed to be pretty dominant and i wanted to address.

evolution. I have a rather animist view of this, in that evolution has it's own awareness, different from our awareness that could be called spirit or soul. lot's think about insects and similar things, that come along season after season, going through the same cycles and rhythms, just like the rhythms in our own bodies. each time an insect comes out of its cocoon after metamorphosing, it is a step on that journey, a beat in that rhythm, and i feel that there is something that is experiencing these rhythms and waves of life and over time, slowly changing. as for whether this experience has some awareness, I am not certain if we can say, there could be some for of network like our neurons that is perhaps making different decisions like our own thought processes, but on a larger scale and instead of neural communication, it is genetic or something else like chemical transmission etc. in short, I believe that evolution has consciousness , on a scale of understanding that we can't fully fathom. ( in the same way though, I am thinking that these various consciousness are not 'gods' but could be considered so by some peoples, and all are simply part of a greater whole)

about time, well our idea of time is basically a straight line going forward and back. i think it's easy to think of this like a train line. all of our trains travel along this track in one direction. at some point each of us will derail and crash (die). the line has a beginning and an end. asking what was before the big bang, is like asking what stops are on the line beyond the terminus. well there aren't any stops because the line doesn't go there. TIME doesn't go before the big bang, but there is something outside of time as we understand it. this is like alternate realities, is like moving off the train line and exploring the countryside. what was before the big bang? well in terms of space time, there is no such thing as before the big bang, but in terms of 'possibility' rather than 'reality', there is many things before the big bang. the only way to see those things is to go off the line. (die)

well either that or use a very special tool that we all have, called imagination. that is what many people believe astral travelling is, during dreaming. they believe hat when we dream we can spread wings and travel from the train.

this is how i like to think about these concepts at the moment anyway. by no means am I correct. that's half the fun

durendal, youngguyver would like your way of thinking there. I remember he was talking about a similar thing a while back.

edit:

I just read back and caught something else asking about motivation for god to create our universe? have i got that right?

well the bible would have it that god created man to worship him. it comes across as very egotistical, but i think this is somehow true but I want to present it in a different fashion, I will quote (or perhaps paraphrase)....

I believe it was doctor carl sagan who said "we are the way for the cosmos to know itself".

[Salkafar]

Since the universe by definition started out as a quantum event, it did not have to behave in any way we can understand. Or even makes sense in any way. The universe could literally have come out of nowhere for no reason whatsoever.

When Napoleon, having congratulated Laplace on his monumental work on mathematics, asked him why he did not mention God anywhere in his entire explanation of the universe, the mathematician apparently answered "I did not need that particular hypothesis, Majesty".

That's basically the place where all of science is right now. And has been for some time, come to think of it.

[The Luna Diviner]

anyway, some things that seemed to be pretty dominant and i wanted to address.

evolution. I have a rather animist view of this, in that evolution has it's own awareness, different from our awareness that could be called spirit or soul. lot's think about insects and similar things, that come along season after season, going through the same cycles and rhythms, just like the rhythms in our own bodies. each time an insect comes out of its cocoon after metamorphosing, it is a step on that journey, a beat in that rhythm, and i feel that there is something that is experiencing these rhythms and waves of life and over time, slowly changing. as for whether this experience has some awareness, I am not certain if we can say, there could be some for of network like our neurons that is perhaps making different decisions like our own thought processes, but on a larger scale and instead of neural communication, it is genetic or something else like chemical transmission etc. in short, I believe that evolution has consciousness , on a scale of understanding that we can't fully fathom. ( in the same way though, I am thinking that these various consciousness are not 'gods' but could be considered so by some peoples, and all are simply part of a greater whole)

about time, well our idea of time is basically a straight line going forward and back. i think it's easy to think of this like a train line. all of our trains travel along this track in one direction. at some point each of us will derail and crash (die). the line has a beginning and an end. asking what was before the big bang, is like asking what stops are on the line beyond the terminus. well there aren't any stops because the line doesn't go there. TIME doesn't go before the big bang, but there is something outside of time as we understand it. this is like alternate realities, is like moving off the train line and exploring the countryside. what was before the big bang? well in terms of space time, there is no such thing as before the big bang, but in terms of 'possibility' rather than 'reality', there is many things before the big bang. the only way to see those things is to go off the line. (die)

well either that or use a very special tool that we all have, called imagination. that is what many people believe astral travelling is, during dreaming. believe hat when we dream we can spread wings and travel from the train.

So about evolution, youre saying that it essentially has a mind of its own within our genetics that communicates within itself via some kind of pathway that is similar to neural connections? Perhaps it can be similar to how Mitochondria were once their own living organism before they were symbiotically absorbed to create a more complex organism? Mitochondria dont nescessarily have their own consciousness, but at one time, they were a seperate living organism. That, in turn, may then explain your theory to a point, that its possible parts of our body have their own consciousness.

as for time, I agree that it can be percieved as a straight line, with any paths off the main line being a sort of alternate timeline. Thats sort of the concept of time travel, the attempt to move off the space time line.

But you said something interesting in saying that the aformentioned line has a begining and an end, which brought about an interesting thought thats somewhat off topic. Will time ever have an end? Now that time has been created, say, during the big bang when time supposidly started, will it ever end? Even if our universe does impode, or any of the numerous possibilities for the end of our universe, will time actually end?

[*Youngtusk]

If there is a god it is beyond our capacity for comprehension. To understand a creator we'd first have to understand everything about it's creation. Seeing as how in our young ages of evolution that answers in science lead to more questions, this may take some time if it's possible at all.

You think in several millions or billions of years we will figure out everything there is to know about the universe and reality? Or do you think we will never know everything about anything?

[*Jess♥]

I believe to know everything about everything, would result in wielding a power over reality, to shape and change anything and everything as one sees fit. to understand all reality so intimately is to be as a god.

to understand the concept is different though.

to understand the concept of how the ocean works, is easy, to understand every nuance and wave and ripple, is totally different.

if I understood every ripple and wave in the ocean, I would know exactly where to dip my toe and at exactly which moment, in order to cause a ripple that would combine the waveforms of an entire ocean surface and cause a massively destructive wave on the other side of the planet. or on the flip-side, if I knew all of that, I would know exactly what slight ripple to cause at the exact moment needed to settle a stormy sea that is threatening to capsize a boat.

that may seem impossible, but really it isn't. it is no different from bouncing a snooker ball off 3 cushions into the right pocket. it's logical, just very very complicated.

[*Youngtusk]

That is a stretch of an analogy but I see what you were trying to get at.

You think it is possible then, eventually, to wield such a power? Or are you only speculating on the hypothetical of the power if such absolute knowledge were attained?

[*Jess♥]

yeah it's purely hypothetical, as there is no human being that could have such a capacity to be able to deal with such a mass of data.

we're probably talking about processing power that exceeds the sum brain power of all humans that have lived and died.

[RazorLaser]

*head implodes*

Whoa.

It is very difficult to imagine 'nothing' before the Big Bang. I remember seeing a cartoon (can't remember which one, possibly Futurama), which the screen was white, and then this 'Big Bang' came out of nowhere. How does 'nothing' exist?

[*Jess♥]

we live in a world where there are 'things' but there is phenomena other than 'things', we just don't have the words to describe phenomena that is not a 'thing'.

it's also hard to comprehend since our existence pretty much revolves around 'things', if something is not a 'thing' then what is it? I certainly don't know.

[RazorLaser]

we live in a world where there are 'things' but there is phenomena other than 'things', we just don't have the words to describe phenomena that is not a 'thing'. it's also hard to comprehend since our existence pretty much revolves around 'things', if something is not a 'thing' then what is it? I certainly don't know.

Haha, oh man! That reminded me of what my girlfriend said yesterday.

"What's that movie with the thing where they get inside the thing and do that thing?"

[Mirabilis]

You know whats funny about that-the idea of a shere nothingness before the big bang is talked about in the bible. That first there was nothing but darkness and through the darkness God commanded there to be light, and "BANG!" the light was made and formed.

I find it interesting listening to all the different ideas and thoughts about how one think's things work in the realm of science.

[*Jess♥]

You know whats funny about that-the idea of a shere nothingness before the big bang is talked about in the bible. That first there was nothing but darkness and through the darkness God commanded there to be light, and "BANG!" the light was made and formed. I find it interesting listening to all the different ideas and thoughts about how one think's things work in the realm of science.

I don't see how you can say that, since the first line reads "in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth" it doesn't refer to anything *before* the beginning.

[Salkafar]

The Völuspa does, however:

"3. Of old was the age | when Ymir lived;

Sea nor cool waves | nor sand there were;

Earth had not been, | nor heaven above,

But a yawning gap, | and grass nowhere."

[*Jess♥]

oh that's interesting. what is that?

I am not familiar with the name.

I was just going by the bible that is widely distributed in the UK, I can't say anything about other versions of the bible from elsewhere so sorry if that's what you were referring to.

oh also, perhaps i am wrong in assuming that genesis is the only relevant part here. of course the story of creation is cited in other places such as the gospel of john.

[Guest Black Inferno]

Yes indeed the bible does speak about nothing existing before God. That there was nothing without God and without God nothing existed. Or something along those lines-forgive me for not giving a direct quote I would have to go back and check on it again to get it word for word.

I didn't read all the posts as I didn't have the patience for it-however I did read some of the material and found the ideas...interesting to say the least. I wanted to post this debate in a topic about the origins of life but I was unable to find such a topic-this seemed to be the second best option so I'll post it in here. In this debate-Kent Hovind (a creation scientist) debates three evolutionist at the same time (so they couldn't say "That’s not my field of expertise" in my opinion) and they cover many things like the Big Bang.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Black Inferno

[Salkafar]

Kent Hovind?

You mean the guy whose doing a ten-year-stretch at the moment for lying and stealing?

Nobody, not even creationists, take this jackass seriously.

[Mirabilis]

Hey Salkafar could you elobrate on that? I looked up that guy Hovind, but only thing I found for his sentence was because he gave things away for free atleast from what I gathered on wiki (however reliable that is). I saw some of his stuff and was pretty interested in it. What do you think about his reason for why carbon dating doesnt work? If you don't mind my asking.

[*YoungGuyver]

There are 2 Hovinds. Kent, and his son Eric. After Kent went to prison, his son Eric turned the family business into a formal charity which means that it must report its income publicly, and is in the millions. Kent claims to have a doctorate, but never mentions it is in religion (I believe) despite making claims about the other sciences. Eric at least has some education in geology (I think), if only he'd use it. Kent is infamous for putting out creationist theories without doing any actual math on them, or experiments, or any form of testing whatsoever. He announces them publicly, and uses them to ridicule mainstream scientific theories. His son does the same thing, but to a lesser extent in my opinion. You can see for yourself, and purchase any number of their many dvds.

Here is a sample of Kent being tackled:

And for fun: