About the bible...

[Guest jimi_the_saint]

Okay, this was posted as a myspace bulletin, and I found it too interesting not to pass on. Before you flame me, remember: it's not mine. I didn't write it.

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The vast majority of Americans believe that God exists, that Jesus is his son, and that God himself gave us the Bible and the Ten Commandments. In fact, Supreme court Justice Antonin Scalia has said that "Ninety-nine percent of Americans believe in the ten commandments." He has also said, "What the commandments stand for is the direction of human affairs by God." If 99% of Americans believe in the ten commandments, how can the Bible be repulsive? Let's take the fourth commandment as an example. It says:

Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work?you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. [Exodus 20: 8-9]

This, supposedly, is the word of God, the almighty ruler of the universe. Now think about this. Wal-mart is open on the Sabbath. And so is Target. Best buy is open on the Sabbath. And so is Circuit City. Home Depot is open on the Sabbath. And so is Lowes. In fact, millions of businesses in America have employees working on the Sabbath. Even Christian Family Bookstores has employees working on the Sabbath. What should we do with all of these People who are breaking the fourth commandment? In the Bible's book of exodus - the same book that contains the ten commandments ? the Bible tells us what to do with everyone who breaks the fourth commandment.

Exodus 31 verse 15 tells us: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

That's right. The Bible commands the death penalty for anyone who works on the Sabbath, and we should obey. Right? This means we have to kill tens of millions of Americans. Should we line these tens of millions of Americans up and shoot them? Should we put them in giant gas chambers? I think we can all agree that the thought of killing millions of innocent Americans is repulsive. A book this repulsive has no place in our society. And make no mistake about it - the bible really means what it says. It fully intends to be repulsive.

In Isaiah 40 verse 8 the Bible says: The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever. [isaiah 40 verse 8]

The Bible says the same thing in 1 Peter 1 verses 24 and 25. And in Psalm 19:7 the Bible says: The law of the Lord is perfect.

Since the laws of the Bible are perfect, they should never change. And then there is this(Matthew 5:20):

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20

According to Jesus, we must follow the laws of the Bible. Do you believe that we should kill millions of innocent People because they work on the Sabbath? If not, do you want a book this repulsive to be quoted in public? Read to children? Used in our courts of law?

The Bible wants us to kill most People in America. For example, the first commandment says, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." What are we supposed to do with everyone who doesn't believe in God? We are supposed to Kill them. Deuteronomy chapter 17 says that we are supposed to stone non-believers to death.

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky? Take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. ? Deut 17:2-7

In 2 Chronicles 15:12-13:

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. - 2 Chron 15:12-13

Deuteronomy 13:13-19:

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases?you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12:

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods ?do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. - Deut 13:7-12

What if you take the name of the lord in vain?

Leviticus chapter 24 verse 16 says:

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. ? Lev 24:16

The Bible is quite clear. We must kill everyone who does not believe in God. There are approximately 30 million People in America who do not believe in any God. There are tens of million more who believe in gods other than the God of the Bible. The Bible commands that we kill them all. And keep in mind that the word of the Lord lasts forever, and the law of the lord is perfect. Think of this as a Christian Jihad. The idea of killing tens of millions of People because they don't believe in God is repulsive.

If you curse your father and mother you are to be killed:

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:9

If you commit adultery you are to be killed:

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife - with the wife of his neighbor - both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:10

If you happen to be homosexual you are to be killed.

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is an abomination. They must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:13

So let's review: God commands us to kill:

? Everyone who works on the Sabbath

? veryone who does not believe in God

? Anyone who curses father or mother

? Everyone who commits adultery

? Everyone who happens to be Homosexual

According to the Bible, we need to kill tens of millions of innocent Americans. The idea of killing this many innocent People is repulsive. The idea that People would walk around carrying a book that demands the death of tens of millions of innocent People is repulsive.

Here's another example of the Bible's idiocy. Rebellious teenagers should all be killed as well.

Here's what the Bible says in Deuteronomy chapter 21:

If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall ... say to the elders of his town, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. - Deut 21

Think about how many American teenagers need to die.

The Bible's absolute sexism is well known, and it is repulsive. Here are two examples:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. - 1 Corinthians 14

And:

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. - 1 Tim 2

We can find dozens of verses that are just as sexist. The Bible's sexism is both ridiculous and repulsive.

The Bible fully supports slavery. In fact, the Bible has been used in many cases, including the American civil war, as an authoritative justification of slavery. Here are three examples.

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44

Also:

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. - Exodus Chapter 21:20

Also:

Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity. - Titus 2:9

You can see that, according to the Bible:

1. Buying and selling slaves is fine.

2. Beating slaves is fine.

3. Slaves are to show entire and true fidelity.

The Bible is riddled with repulsion. Take, for example, this verse:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. - Isaiah 13

Or this:

Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. - Hosea 13

Or this:

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. - Numbers 31

You get the picture. The Bible is repulsive.

You have seen ten graphic examples of repulsion. You can find hundreds of verses like these throughout the old and new testaments. You find Racism, sexism and bigotry galore. The deaths millions of innocents are chronicled in page after page of this appalling book. There is no question that this book is repulsive. It has no place in a modern, civilized nation.

We currently use the Bible throughout American society. We do that, in large part, because most Americans have never read the bible and have no idea how disgusting it is.

? We read from this book at weddings and funerals.

? We force People to put their hands on this book in court.

? We find copies of the Bible in nearly every hotel room in America.

The Bible demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath. The Bible commands us to kill teenagers who drink too much. The Bible empowers us to enslave People of other nations. The Bible commands that we oppress women and kill People who happen to be homosexual.

A book this repulsive has no place in our society. It is time for the intelligent, thoughtful People of this nation to acknowledge this simple fact and act on it.

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So, thoughts?

[durendal]

Frankly I'm not surprised someone was able to put these things together. The bible is part of the religion. No matter how pure something is, if a person has the full intent, can perverse anything. that is the power of humans. If you take a look at history, the source of majority of the major conflicts are caused by religion. We have a bloody history.

As for what was mentioned, the bible is simply a guide. The verses that were referred are from the old Testament. Which is why we have a New Testament. After Jesus supposedly saved mankind, what he left are the teachings which was misinterpreted during the times of old. As Jesus himself said that you should always forgive seventy times seven (or something to that effect).

[*zeo]

Yeah, the Bible was created what? About 400 years after Christ's death.

And the Dead Sea Scrolls shows it was an edited compilation in which the church picked and chosed what they wanted included in the Bible and what was to be excluded.

Not to mention the translation errors as the Bible got converted into different languages like the Reed Sea got converted to the Red Sea, etc.

[Guest jimi_the_saint]

Obviously, I wouldn't have posted the above if I didn't agree with it, but the one thing that truly sickens and scares me in particular, not just in christianity, but in most, if not all religions, is the 'from birth' indoctrination.

For example, technically I am an atheist. I do not believe in any god. Legally, I am still a catholic until I ask my local bishop for permission to leave the faith.

And why is this? My parents, like their parents before them, had me baptised before I could speak. Then came my first communion and my confirmation before I was even old enough to think for myself.

My parish priest thought I was crazy when I told him that, after actually reading some of the bible for myself, I didn't agree with the religion and it's teachings. I may get my morals from the bible, but I sure don't get my immorals from it.

I wonder, how many catholics/christians have actually read the bible? And, if they have, do they realise how much they are disobeying their own god and are comitting their eternal soul to hell?

[*Jess♥]

Yes I am a little upset about that.

I was christened when i was young. I was forced to go to sunday school for most of my early childhood. that was until I started to become an individual at the age of around 8. that was when i started ignoring my parents and doing what i felt was right.

they tried to force me to go but I just got out of the car and went over to my mates house instead of into the church.

it was more fun.

I didn't give a drenn what some book said.

I wanted to play on mario 2!

but since i started to thin about faith... I never even considered that i was christened as a methodist. I think that is pretty much irrelevant. some splash of water on my head doesn't count as some kind of binding contract. there's no magic going on. there is no spell cast over me. as far as I am concerend it was a splash of water. i do that every morning. my beliefs come from deep inside. they come from my own soul and don;t reflect on what anybody has tried to teach me because i tend to ignore a lot of what other People say if i do not agree with it.

I don;t knwo where my morals or my willfulness come from it certainly isn;t from any religion or from my parents or from any of my past friends.

it is mine alone.

oh but i'm rambling.

these things are interesting. the bible is such a thing... I think that it has gained this status and it is very troublesome. it is the best selling book in the world..

i have never read it. I have one on my shelf... the only reason why it never went in the bin is because it wqas a gift from my grandparents. it is precious to me for that reason and that reason alone. the contents of the book are meaningless.

but to say things like that??

wow...

well I guess it can be said that all organised religions may have simiolar aspects? things that do not seem too good....

it isn't this that causes troubles though. it is peoples apathy that is the problem. when People follow it bliondly without thinking that is where evil occurs. the good People who follow such religions are good because they can see past the temptations of the devil. one could say that these parts of the bible are red herrings for god to truly test his followers?

I'm just exploring possibilities here.

talking hypothetically of course.

[Guest DekaRed]

hmmm, commandment number 6 says "Thou shalt not kill"

contradictory much....

[largo]

What about the whole thou shall not warship an idol well aren't christians braking this one all the time. Think about it the cross is an idol of sorts.

[ZoneFighter]

Thou shall not kill is a weak translation. The Commandment is actually you shall not murder. To quote C.S. Lewis: not all killing is murder anymore than all sex is fornication. It is not murder to execute a criminal. Its not murder to kill in self defense or defense of your nation. Its not murder to kill animals for food, clothing or shelter.

There are no contradictions in God's word. Only People who take Scripture out of context. Not everything in the Bible is meant for all nations and all times. Some of those laws were just for ancient Israel. Some were cerimonial laws that no longer apply because they have been fullfilled by the comming of Christ.

Yes some Christians are commiting idolatry with crosses. And all those paintings supposedly of Christ are violation of the commandment was well.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are Jewish writting contain some of the Old Testament and some non-Biblical texts. The New Testment is not even in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The books of the Old Testament were writen centuries before Jesus was born. There are over 300 prophacies of the Messiah, everyone of them fullfilled by Jesus.

There is more archaelogical evidence for the accuracy of the Bible than there is for any other ancient text. There is more evidence for the who men God used to write the Bible were than there is for who wrote the plays attributed to William Shakespeare. The Bible is disbelieved from a lack of faith not a lack of evidence proving it true.

[Super Existence]

What maes me laugh is the way the bible is altered as civilisation grows more accepting of difference e.g. homosexuality, theres already rumblings in the vatican they will write out that gays will go to hell.

This is the problem with Doctrination you have no idea how the future will pan out when it was written in times long before medievil times.

[Wiedergänger]

Yeah, the Bible was created what? About 400 years after Christ's death.

And the Dead Sea Scrolls shows it was an edited compilation in which the church picked and chosed what they wanted included in the Bible and what was to be excluded.

Not to mention the translation errors as the Bible got converted into different languages like the Reed Sea got converted to the Red Sea, etc.

Ok, first: did the church took out some of the books of the bible? Yes, the church took out some of the books, but with good reasons. The reasons being, they were made way after the other books of the bible, the People who wrote the books made more of an educated guess than actually knowing what the Lord God has said, because Jesus spoke to the disciples. None of this other stuff about having to change the Bible because of gays...well being gay. Also, all of this talk about having to kill some one who doesn't go to church on Sunday, or because they disobey their parents. This was all said in the old testament, which unless you are Jewish (nothing against you if you are), is not what Christians attempt to live by. Jesus gave us the New Testament, in which we are told we are no longer to be 'eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth' that we are to 'turn the other cheek'

Edit: I'm sorry I forget to add this bit in before hand. But the 22 psalm was written approx. 1000 years before Jesus was crucified.

An example of prophecy is in the 22 psalm were it is said, and I quote: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

Jesus cries out to his father, the Lord God; God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It goes even further saying: "He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him." Did the People watching Jesus die not say that if he was the messiah, meant to save all of mankind, why would he not save himself?

Even further still: "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax." In the Bible during Jesus' crucifiction that he bleed blood and water, And that he had been torn to shreds by a cat of nine tails.

More still: "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." Jesus' hands, feet, and hip were pierced by spears and nails.

Again more: "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture." During Jesus' crucifiction roman soldiers gambled for Jesus' clothing.

Edited May 25, 2007 by Zerrei?en!

[Guest jimi_the_saint]

You ask any priest, of any denomination of catholicism, and they'll tell you that you can't pick and choose which parts of the bible to believe, it's all or nothing. Even the parts which seem to be contradictory.

It's all the word of god.

As for the prophecies, it's all in the same book. How do we know what actually happened? Or that the author got tired and started reusing and mixing his metaphors?

[Guest DarkSunLord1]

I notice that most, if not all of Jimi the Saint's quotes come from the Old Testament, which took place before the birth of Christ, and also the Old Testament was meant for a people, the Hebrews, who not only technically don't exist today (All that remains is their descendents, the Jews), but said People lived in an area infamous for social, political, and religious turmoil; of COURSE the old rules would be bloody back over 2,000 years ago And another thing, for those who followed him, Christ REWROTE the rules, saying it was now okay to work on the Sabbath, and also eat pork, for another.

As for slavery, the New Testament speaks out against it.

We read from the Book at weddings and funerals because the ones who the weddings and funerals are for normally belong to that religion. People read from the Bible at these times because it isn't a bad idea to want to ensure the happiness (Weddings) and peace (Funerals) of those who the affair is for.

You obsess over the Old Testament, a set of writings and rules that belongs to a bloody-time in a almost traditionally war-torn desert area, and ignore the fact that Christ said as plain as day (I don't know how to superscript):

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."

-Matthew 6:43-48

And just before that:

"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on [your] right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for a mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow."

-Matthew 6:38-42

You say that any priest of any denomination of Catholism will say that you can't pick and choose what you believe in the bible. This is true about the OLD Testament, but you also ignore the fact that the NEW Testament was written to supersede the Old Testament. As I noted about, Christ called out against the bloody old ways. A priest will also a admit to THAT!

In the end, You seem to be crying out in ignorace of some 2 millennia of teachings. You seem to be delibertely ignoring informaion that disputes your claims!

Edited July 31, 2007 by DarkSunLord1

[Wiedergänger]

Immer die ruhe der darksunlord!

Take it easy! Jimi has already said that he wasn't the one who wrote this, he was just presenting it as an interesting piece of information.

[Guest Bio-Booster]

After having a good portion of the bible, I can say that there is no thing so wise yet so simple, than the teachings of Jesus. Especially the teaching of "Love thy enemy" is unique and I have never heard a similar Commandment anywhere before. The rules of the old testament however are to me not any more binding, than laws from old Greece or Egypt.

[*Youngtusk]

After having a good portion of the bible, I can say that there is no thing so wise yet so simple, than the teachings of Jesus. Especially the teaching of "Love thy enemy" is unique and I have never heard a similar Commandment anywhere before. The rules of the old testament however are to me not any more binding, than laws from old Greece or Egypt.

Martin Luther KIng Jr. advocated loving those who hurt you, in his writing "Strength to Love." He has some very good essays. I wish I could have met him.

As for the whole bible thing; whatever, no one really beleives in that stuff nowadays anymore than People believe in Magic and the Easter bunny.

[*Jess♥]

As for the whole bible thing; whatever, no one really beleives in that stuff nowadays anymore than People believe in Magic and the Easter bunny.

well actually I know some People who would disagree.

I actually go to a weekly group "Christian Union" every monday to learn about christian faith and about the stories in hte bible.

I find it very interesting to study as a lot of things are similar to my own beliefs.

obviously there is much that i disagree with, but I find it challenging to translate my own beliefs into some form that the christians can understand and agree with.

soe of the People I talk to actually take a lot of the bibles word LITERALLY.

the way they put it sometimes is that... really we all have FAITH in scientists when really all this complex maths and such (most of which isn't even complete) can't actually be proven very easily.

I mean it can't be proven to be solid fact when there is so much 'known unknowns' and 'unknown unknowns' such as dark matter and the like.

[*Youngtusk]

True, science is based on a materialistic philosophy, but the scientific method itself plays as a shield from Philosopher's twisty logic. Basicly, its a fact as long as it works(and as long as we know why it works and that it will work again if tested), and as you can tell from using your computer to connect and log into cyberspace to chat with others around the world; it all works pretty damn well.

As far as i'm concerned, Science has done a lot more for human progress in the past few hundred years than religion has, so I invest my stock in science.

"If we don't play God, who will?"

-Dr. James D. Watson, Molecular Biologist

[The Crimson Guyver]

I my self am a Lutheran. I believe that most teachings of the bible have altered my behavior. Most likely if I didn't go through all that I have, I would probably a drugee and a girlfriend beater. So I know so many People (mostly atheists) attack christianity and the bible such as christians prosicute the Koran and Islam. The one thing is though the difference between Jesus and Muhammad. Islam says Muhammad is the example of the perfect man (so does christianity with Jesus) but he Muhammad fought in wars and executed over 90 men with his own sword. While as all of you guys know Jesus was kind and although probably had emotional breakdowns, became annoyed by others and such he controlled his anger. And I know some one on this forum will probably attack me for this comment but I think Islam is a over sensitive religion. I mean Youtube was closed/blocked for over 6 hours or so by Iran because there were hundreds of anti-islam videos and comments. But if you look there are hundreds/thousands of anti christian videos and we don't block it. We can't even show Muhammad's image? But we can show Jesus. Eh anyways I'am also a person who believes in Evolution. So many People think that God's plan of life was like Kindegarten. Some christians (what I call super christians) believe that Earth is only 4000 years old based on God's 7 days creation. My mom says maybe the time frame was different such as 1 day may have been millions and millions of years. God could have also created Evolution and when man finally formed he claimed him as his followers. But thats my opinion

[*Jess♥]

youngtusk, yes i agree with you mostly, but I do sometimes have problems with science, in times when ideas are proposed to be 'impossible' because it's against the laws of physics.

there is so much unknown.

I'm not necessarily advocating some of these ideas, but here is one idea that was given.

when you put an animal in the zoo, you give it a habitat to let it grow and develop.

if it is a chimpanzee enclosure, you give that chimpanzee all tools and interesting things to play with.

so perhaps the world appears the way it does because whoever made it wants it to be interesting and challenging for mans intellect?

and so they made it appear to be the way it is, when in actual fact for all we know... the world could have blinked into exhistence like a millisecond ago. 'evidence' relies on so much faith. our eyes for example. our eyes interpret the world and we simply gotta have faith that what our eyes show us is true.

oh well i may be going the pedantic route now... but hey.

personally, I like science as an explaination, but never as an answer.

I love your quote btw. I feel it rings so true with my own beliefs. quite literally in fact.

Crimson, that is so great to hear. I find the one great thing when People FIND religion is that they become better people. more able to love and help people. notice i said FIND in bold..

when People are INDOCTRINATED from birth, i feel that is wrong, because it is a form of brainwashing. when People are forced into it and not given all the information, it can be harmful because those People gain a blinkered view of the world. end of the day what makes each persons individual faith so wonderful is teh fact they have freely chosen to celebrate life in this specific fashion.

I found an interesting thought the last meeting with CU.

they posed the question "what is a good way to thank god" and everyione was saying "praise him" and so on...

I felt that was utterly wrong, because if I gave somebody a gift, I wouldn't want them to say 'thank you' to me every time they saw me, I woud actually get quite fed up with it. I wouldn't want them to worship me because thats not why i gave it in hte forst place. If I give somebody a gift, I want them to enjoy it. nothing more and notheing less. if I see them enjoying the gift, that makes it worthwhile.

so In conclusion, I told the group that the best way to "thank god" is to simply enjoy the Life and the world around us.

And I know some one on this forum will probably attack me for this comment but I think Islam is a over sensitive religion.

It's your own view and I'm sure many will agree. but to attack you would get them a one way ticket out of this subforum, so I don't think thats gonna happen

[Salkafar]

I can never work out which I find more repugnant: the Bible or the defenses misguided People make up for it.

And the claims that it is in fact supported by archeology. It is almost funny.

Almost.

[*zeo]

Well the fact is many of the references made in the Bible are actually historical, though of course many scenes are viewed in a religious light.

Like a natural disaster would be seen as an act of god, etc. Many of the events listed in the Bible actually happened, just not necessarily exactly as described. It is after all one of the first written/printed documents in the history of mankind and thus the first method by which historical events were documented.

Just because you disagree with the message doesn't mean you can just ignore all the evidence.

I'm not even really religious myself, I basically believe in god just not in religion as I see that as an invention of man and just like politics it can become corrupted.

Most who know me know I'm heavy into logic and science. Religion has its place in civilization, exactly how can be argued to death.

But one thing I know for sure is that the only misguided People are those who think they know for a fact that other People are misguided for not believing what you believe.

God is neither provable nor disprovable by any logical means, it is simply a matter of faith and no one has the right to judge someone elses faith. It is something each and every one of us must do ourselves.

[*Youngtusk]

Of course God cannot be disproved, but then again neither can Unicorns, or Merlin, hell, even Guyvers can't be disproven if you truly believe that.

I don't believe in GOd in any religious or spiritual sense. But I honestly do wish there was a god watching us, just so I could curse into the sky and shake my fist, knowing that the almighty would percieve my angst.

But I don't even get that! My Prayers, curses, and hopes go unanswered into the stars.

So I say, if theres a god or not, it doesn't matter to me at this moment; i'd live my life the way I want. And if god don't like it, let him hit me with a divine strike.

[*Jess♥]

But I don't even get that! My Prayers, curses, and hopes go unanswered into the stars.

So I say, if theres a god or not, it doesn't matter to me at this moment; i'd live my life the way I want. And if god don't like it, let him hit me with a divine strike.

of course some would say "the lord works in mysterious ways".

also there was something somebody said i can't remember where... the voice of god would make your head explode?

to get a direct communique from god would likely kill you so he has to work in ways indirectly.

in new age belief, some would say that there are spirits that may contact you if you were open to it, but many People are not open to such things and so cannot percieve teh spirits. (maybe analogous with angels)

this kinda also links with karma. if you do good deeds, it'll come round to you in the end.

lastly, there is psychology.

if you constantly curse the world, the world will always seem a hostile place.

it is because you would see an enemy around every corner.

every awkward bottle lid is out to get you!!

personally i don't think the wishes of one can overweigh the wishes of the many. also when a wish is purely selfish it should be ignored.

if someboy came to me and asked me for all my money, i would tell them to go fish.

I would be more likely to help People that i see are wanting to help others. thats just hte way i am.

I actually think prayers are answered by the People around us.

I think that the psychic network of the world passes hopes and dreams along to thos who have the power to do something.

that is how i think certain 'messiah' arise. lots of People have so much hopes and dreams. and they see one person who may do something that makes the People think he/she is special. the opsychic energy fro all those People then gets directed towards this person and they become able to do extraordinary things.

if you saw teh last episode of doctor who season 3... thats what I'm talking about.

[*zeo]

That's an interesting theory Ryuki, believe it or not science actually has a running debate on something of that order.

Basically the idea stems from quantum physics and chaos theory, in that consciousness can effect the universe just like an observer can force a quantum object to take on a particular state.

Accumulatively this effect, could theoretically re-shape the universe as we know it if we all agree on what state the universe should be in.

The problem being we are a divided People and not everyone wishes for a better world, at least not the type of world that includes all of us in it.

hell, even Guyvers can't be disproven if you truly believe that.

Sorry, but you're over reaching with that one.

Takaya is still alive, he has never claimed his work to be based on reality, and his work is well documented so there can be no doubt exactly what the Guyver is.

The only ones who could believe the Guyver to be real are those who do not consider logic or reasoning and base their beliefs on faith alone.

Please do not try to put People of faith in that category when many believe what they do because they reasoned their way to that belief!

That is the difference, there is plenty of evidense showing the Guyver is fictional but this is not the case for god.

Reaonable People can thus agree the Guyver is fictional but reasonable People can argue to the end of time for the existence of god.

In comparison, since you brought up unicorns and Merlin, the truth of many things can be determined if you just look hard enough and use reason.

For example the origin of giant cyclops in ancient greek myth stems from their discovery of extinct animal bones, which included everything from dinosaurs to mammoths. The Mammoth bones were in fact the origin for the one eyed giants, the ancient greeks just put the bones together thinking it was some sort of giant and so it looked like a cyclops and thus the legend. It never occurred to them that it could be some animal they've never seen before.

And though Merlin remains a mystery, other seemingly fictional characters like Robin Hood and King Arthur actually have evidence showing that they were based on actual people, it's just the details about them were exaggerated and fictionalized. Something on the order of saying something like Babe Ruth could have hit a home run to the moon kind of thing.

God however goes back to the creation of the universe and thus you can either consider the existence of the universe as evidense of god or you can think it's just all coincidence and discount the existence of god.

Unlike those other legends and myths there is nothing we can point to really question the existence of god. Only debate the interpretation of what some would call evidense.

Thus even reasonable people, those who do not judge by faith alone, can argue all they want without coming to a real conclusion on god because there is nothing definitive to either prove or disprove god.

Only interpretations that can be viewed in any number of ways.

So whether you believe in god or not, in either case it simply breaks down to a matter of faith.

The person who claims to not believe in god can only do so on faith because there is nothing to prove that belief any more than a person who believes in god can prove that as well.

[Salkafar]

Nevertheless, it does not require faith to not believe in the existence of a god.