Angels and Demons

[Archangel Ashes]

Both Angels and Demons are my favorite topics to have a debate about. Do you believe in their existence? What is their purpose? How did they come to exist? Was Lucifer the creator of demons? Does that make him a God? There are just so many things that surround them it is hard to just believe that their existence in cultures around the world was a coincidence. Both the angels Michael and Gabriel appear in almost every religion that has angels involved and they usually have the same position. Michael being the right hand of God and Gabriel being a messenger and sometimes the angel of death (I am saying almost because I am mostly speaking about Christian, Judaism, Islamic, and Catholic and I do not have much knowledge on Mormon and others like that). Not only that, so many people claim to have seen one of the two groups for what ever reason. Some people claim that houses may be haunted by evil spirits/demons while others claim that an angel guided them.

I for one am a believer of the existence of both groups. I also believe in Armageddon. I believe angels exist to help guide people to salvation and they also exist to help humans. Demons on the other hand I see as the servants of Satan. They exist to plague humanity and to tempt us. I have never seen an angel or demon before. I am going solely on belief.

So what does everyone else believe in?

[LordSpleach]

I personally see the Angels created by God(obviously), but the demons include other fallen angels like Lucifer, and evil spirits that existed before Lucifer's rebellion.

[*BananaKing]

I always liked demons over angels. Angels are pretty black and white but with demons their spectrum is just so broad. I'm talking about appearances of course. The theories and concepts behind the two are very complex when you really dive into them. I want to see a show having angels hunt down demons or the other way around. That way the whole concept could be explored in such a beautiful manner

[*Jess♥]

how about this :-

before humans ever existed, there were demons and angels.

demons existed in one realm and angels existed in another.

they had societies and relationships perhaps alilen to our own ideas, but they had a full society each of their own.

then they met.

they actually got along well at first. the angels were very emotional, the demons were very logical.

something bad happened and this brought the two to war.

at this time, it was decided that earth should be created.

the creator made the creatures of the earth and tied into these creatures the aspects of the angels and mixed in some of the demons as well.

he then provided a means for them to awaken and become mortal.

the first real choice came, and humanity was born.

since demons and angels still exist and still are against each other, they seek to control the humans and play out their war through influencing humanity.

the part of the demons that is within humanity is very logical, it helps us to survive. it is a very primal instinct and some refer to it as the 'reptilian brain'. it is responsible for the ancient instincts of survival. it rules fear and fear is the cause of many evils. this is why demons are seen as evil. but in reality they are simply misunderstood.

the angel part of us is what gives us emotion, empathy. love. this is where our society seems to be at teh moment. but of course in the middle of africa with lions and tigers it would not serve us. so in a survival frame of mind, this would give rise to negativity such as dying and getting eaten.

[*zeo]

Hmm, well if we go by history then it would be more accurate to say both angels and demons co-existed since both were the messengers of the gods originally. . . at least until the cultural divide between Eastern and Western cultures. . . with the west aligning angels with good and demons with evil while the eastern cultures primarily associated supernatural forces and beings in general to demons or at least creatures that looked like demons.

Not to mention the new age interpretation which portrays such beings from anything from being life from another dimension (meaning if you traveled to their dimension then you would be the demon) to beings created from the human group subconscious. . .

So, it depends on which version of them you are refering to?

[Mirabilis]

Well this is what I believe...

God (in my belief) created everything in exsitence. He created the unvierse, and all living beings both natural and super natural. HE created Lucifer and he created all the Angels. Demons were angel that fell hence "Fallen Angels" So in my belief Demons were angels that followed Lucifer to hell and praticed that evil arts. I then believe (though I have no proof to back this up) that it was during this time that God decided to create us, humans, on earth. He already had servants , angels, but i think he wanted someone, to want to love him (free will) instead of made to love him. So he created us and gave us a choice if we would want to have a relationship with him or not.

As far as appearances and physical forms, I believe that both demons and angels can take different forms and others may only be able to have one form. Many people usually think of angels as beautiful creaters that usually resemble a woman, as beautiful as this may sound I must disagree with this logic. If you read the Bible (and I am sure this quote is in any religious book, I am only saying the Bible because thats the only one I read) Everytime someone encounters an angel the angel says: Fear Not! I know that there are some angels in the bible that look like hiduos monsters one such creature (though I do not know the name) was one of the most powerful types of angels. It has the torso of a man 4 bird like wings, the legs of a goat, & 4 heads: 1 a goat, 1 a lion, 1 a bird, and I cant remember the last but I think it was a mans head. Also there are angels that gaurd the garden of eden, that have swords made purely out of fire. I dont know if this is true or not because I only over heard it in a conversation.

The same applies to demons, they are usually shown looking like these dark/red monstrous beast that just want to eat your soul. Although I do believe that SOME demons look like this, I believe the majority look like beautiful creatures that want to persuade you and tempt you to do want they want you to do (because they are followers of Lucifer who is the known as "The Decifer") In the bible Satan takes many forms, I believe he can make his body look however he wants it to look like, but I also believe that his true form is a very beautiful form (since the bible says that) and so that he will make you think he is an angel and can persuade you to follow him/do what he wants. Although I also believe that he can also turn into a blood thirty monster with terrible awesome power (nothing comparable to God) as well.

All in all I wouldnt be surprised if the image that humans give angels are actually demons, and the image we give demons are actually angels. But I believe they both races are both appereances

Edited March 16, 2009 by Mirabilis

[Aether]

Goddamit theres always a good topic here .........

im gonna try n keep this brief! so it will be how i logically see angels and demons

to me Angels - wait for it -are higher dimensional beings that have been in exsistence way before we ever were and we probably couldnt even comprehend them, if any angels in the sense of the biblical exsist they are probably saintly spirits that look over people on earth to protect them from beligerant spirits

Demons in the sense of good vs evil are probably the beligerent spirits i just mentioned and the idea of them are an exstension of the myth of Satan who was Lucifer who was originally an angel who supposedly got too big for his boots thinking he could rule over God.......

in the bible satan seems to be an opposition to the will of god rather than an entity.... the image of satan is derived from ancient worship of the underground or 'underworld' deity of raw earth/volcanic energy which was akin to the goat god Pan this is where the imagery of baphomet the goat headed devil comes from........... i genuinely think its all ancient concepts that have snowballed to be missrepresented and taken out of context......

as for other fallen angels, are they the nephillim or the giants that took earth women for their own? if so then these guys were probably aliens rather than angels that were actually associated with the fallen angel Lucifer. i think these two 'evil' angels were two different types......... i have more theories on Lucifer as a concept rather than an entity but i'll leave that alone!!!

[*zeo]

Hmm, perhaps it may help if we wait and go see Tom Hanks "Angels & Demons" movie?

It continues with the same character from the "The Da Vinci Code", so expect more illuminati conspiracy insanity but this time around the conspiracy would be revelant to this topic. . . There's a nice half demon and half angel statue depicted in some of the promotional material.

[Guest Balanar]

Greetings dear friends…. This is an interesting conversation we seem to have on this forum; it fills me with pride and excites me to see that I am a member of a group that does indeed have truly eclectic matters to discuss including the supernatural. The topic in question has fascinated me for as long as I can remember.

Not to shun your exploration of ideas and contemplations thereof, I would like to lay down the correct basics (details cannot be explored by me as my knowledge is quite limited; I will hence steer to what I know as confirmed truth); I understand if some of you will disagree with what I state here, that is your privilege and right.

All beings and things are the creation of the one God (One of His correct names being Allah), the existence we know and are present in is set fourth by him and is governed by the principals and laws he has laid down; of these beings we are to focus on the three major categories:

Angels:

Angels have their own shapes usually carrying wings, but being formed of light (energy), they are easily capable of transformation, they can assume human features when necessary. The usual abode of angels is heaven where they praise God and pray for mankind; but they also come to earth on duty and call on people, with or without their recognition as strangers (to my understanding this refers to their usual use of invisible or usually subliminal means; it is stated that such matters are delivered not upon the mind, but rather upon the heart). God has paid testament saying that angels believe in him and implore forgiveness for those who believe (this is further quantified many places and builds our understanding that angels exist having only the ability to carry out the will of God, they cannot deviate from God’s will and do not make mistakes). Angels also particularly approach people at the time of their death with good or bad tidings according to their situation. They also descend with blessings on particular occasions.

Think of them as executing God's instructions.

Humans:

Human beings are created by God and beheld us the most beloved and superior creation (can be seen as the paramount). Man is a combination of soul and body. Soul springs from the sphere of command and Body grows from the sphere of Creation, both of which belong to the Creator. Human beings are given free will. Through this free will human beings may elevate themselves to a footing unparalleled even by angels, or may relegate themselves to an existence inferior to even that of a mindless beast. Human creation is from wet soil (mud; or more correctly potter’s clay) and its soul is introduced by the Creator.

Demons or “Devils”:

The third class of creation is referred to as Jin or Jinii. Jin stand halfway between angels and man, sharing the nature of both parts. They are created from fire; they too are also primarily unseen, possessing the capability of transfer and transformation. They have families, cultures and even religion. Just like human beings, they have free will… some follow the path of good while others follow the path of evil. They are known to lead people astray, to interfere with people directly or indirectly or to help people directly or indirectly. They may at times choose to interact with humans in various forms. They can cross over into our dimension (space of existence).

Jinii CAN BE GOOD OR EVIL (even inbetween I recon).

Hence evil jinii (in cases playing the role of Satan's minions) are the ones that often end u being attributed as demons or devils.

Some humans have the power to interact with Jinii, this may be achieved in a positive sense through various forms of channeled worship (of God) and/or ritual, it may also be achieved in a negative sense through black magic rituals and practices… some people are also naturally God gifted and achieve this without any particular effort.

The Devil / Satan:

Contrary to popular belief, Satan (or more correctly, Iblees) is not a fallen angel (as angels follow only God’s will and do not even have the capability of making mistakes). He was never an Angel; he is a Jin and was in fact held as the head of this creation on account of his actions which were to only worship and please God (which was unparalleled). He fell from grace upon defying God’s will, to bow in front of Adam; saying that he would not bow to an inferior being… the conversation ended with the theme of the devil seeking permission to mislead this inferior creation (permission had to be sought, as a single leaf my not move from its place except with God’s consent).

Human Souls:

Death is the separation of the Soul from the physical body in all practical terms and the souls wait in the grave for the coming day of judgment. The living can in some rare cases have contact with souls of the departed, even apart from dreams, but it demands a separate treatment. They apart from this have no role to play in the world of the living. Contrary to popular belief, they cannot intercede in our lives of provide assistance to us; they are rather themselves in most cases in need of assistance via prayer. They cannot haunt houses (which is usually the existence of jinni, making mischief, doing evil or even simply trying to communicate inconvenience felt by them through some act of the humans living there), possess bodies (also done by jinni), reveal secrets (Im not 100% sure on this one or to the extents that it applies) or be re-incarnated into the world of the living.

That pretty much cover’s the basics, further matters may be explored upon the interest of the members… I will share my limited knowledge (I known only the basics) and also share my theories.

I thank you for taking the time to read what I have put fourth.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Balanar

[*Jess♥]

Not to shun your exploration of ideas and contemplations thereof, I would like to lay down the correct basics (details cannot be explored by me as my knowledge is quite limited; I will hence steer to what I know as confirmed truth); I understand if some of you will disagree with what I state here, it is your privilege and right.

"correct basics" according to your belief.

and..

"confirmed truth" in your own mind.

let me elaborate.

even if something seems true to our own mind, we must accept that other people's mind works in different ways and works with different types of data. other people may say the same thing but use different names or explainations. in the spirit of different languages, it is a kind of different 'vocabulary' for different people.

none is fundamentally 'true' and none is fundamentally 'false'. just different perspectives.

let us please shy away from trying to confirm something as divine truth. we must allow for the different 'languages'.

once we can work in this way, people are far more likely to listen and try to understand.

[Guest Balanar]

"correct basics" according to your belief.

and..

"confirmed truth" in your own mind.

let me elaborate.

even if something seems true to our own mind, we must accept that other people's mind works in different ways and works with different types of data. other people may say the same thing but use different names or explainations. in the spirit of different languages, it is a kind of different 'vocabulary' for different people.

none is fundamentally 'true' and none is fundamentally 'false'. just different perspectives.

let us please shy away from trying to confirm something as divine truth. we must allow for the different 'languages'.

once we can work in this way, people are far more likely to listen and try to understand.

Not An Issue Lets stick to the larger picture.....

[*zeo]

Well, even with that be careful. . .

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_M_M3uQQ42FA/R3ME...t_be_unseen.jpg

The big picture can be quite shocking for those not ready to see it

Btw, this is a good article to read on the matter. . . http://www.cyberspacei.com/jesusi/inlight/...gels_demons.htm

[Archangel Ashes]

that God decided to create us, humans, on earth. He already had servants , angels, but i think he wanted someone, to want to love him (free will) instead of made to love him. So he created us and gave us a choice if we would want to have a relationship with him or not.

As far as appearances and physical forms, I believe that both demons and angels can take different forms and others may only be able to have one form.

The same applies to demons, they are usually shown looking like these dark/red monstrous beast that just want to eat your soul. Although I do believe that SOME demons look like this, I believe the majority look like beautiful creatures that want to persuade you and tempt you to do want they want you to do (because they are followers of Lucifer who is the known as "The Decifer") In the bible Satan takes many forms, I believe he can make his body look however he wants it to look like, but I also believe that his true form is a very beautiful form (since the bible says that) and so that he will make you think he is an angel and can persuade you to follow him/do what he wants. Although I also believe that he can also turn into a blood thirty monster with terrible awesome power (nothing comparable to God) as well.

All in all I wouldnt be surprised if the image that humans give angels are actually demons, and the image we give demons are actually angels. But I believe they both races are both appearances

Very insightful. I believe this also, but how I believe that when the angel says "Fear Not!" is because they are descending from the heavens and have bird like wings. I would also find that cause for fear if a being came to me like that if I had no prior knowledge. It would make sense for demons to be able to shape shift like that but I do believe their true form is monstrous. When I think of angels I do usually do picture them as having the beauty of a woman but when I think of the angels Michael and Gabriel I picture them in medieval armor like they are ready to go to war. The reason I picture them this way is because some translations of Gabriel's name means "Strength of God". As for Michael, it is a common thought to picture him in such a manner because in art he is wearing armor (not all the time though). There are other angels that do not look how we typically view them, I believe they are called "Thrones". If my memory serves me right, they are wheel shaped and covered in eyes. Those guardians that you are referring to Mirabilis I think is the angel known as Uriel. He is the angel whose name means "Fire of God" and he does have a "fiery sword".

As for Lucifer, I do believe that he was an angel that fell from grace, but there have been theories that the being known as Satan was created by God to test humanity even though people of the Christian faith commonly identify Satan as Lucifer. Another theory I know of is, Lucifer wanted to take Jesus Christ's place so that humanity would serve God eternally much like the angels do. God rejected this idea and so Lucifer rebelled. BUT out of all the theories about Lucifer the one I believe is that he rebelled because of his pride.

[*zeo]

Side note, there seems to be certain benefit to having faith. . .

Religious people less anxious, brain activity shows

In other words this discussion could potentially be perfectly beneficial to your mental well being.

[The Luna Diviner]

Side note, there seems to be certain benefit to having faith. . .

In other words this discussion could potentially be perfectly beneficial to your mental well being.

i agree with that. i feel that faith gives the followers a sort of calmness that can only be brought about by a divine force. its something to believe in that is higher than themselves, something they can devote all their attention to without having to have concrete and absolute proof, something that requires the highest level of devotion to give yourself to something you cannot see, that is why they call it faith, becuase you simply must believe.

that is, for people who are religious. im not saying you have to be, im just saying as someone who wasnt before, and then converted later in life when religion seemed to make more "sense" to me, it has given me something i never had before, something i would never give back, that sort of calmness or sense of security. because my close family is not religious i had to find religion on my own, somehting i have been happy to have as i went through life.

however, that deviates away from the topic, so i dont want to elaborate too much on that.

[*YoungGuyver]

Man, there's so much to reply to on this topic.

Religion makes you less anxious? Understandable. I mean, the idea that you can rely on someone stronger than you has to be very comfortable. That you could even kill and commit any number of acts that you would normally question all because you believe your higher power sanctions it as right (that morality is dictated by a created, and no matter what the dictator decides, it is automatically morally right and justified). It's just so easy to relax as a child in the comfort that a parent like god can take care of everything for us.

Both the angels Michael and Gabriel appear in almost every religion that has angels involved and they usually have the same position. Michael being the right hand of God and Gabriel being a messenger and sometimes the angel of death (I am saying almost because I am mostly speaking about Christian, Judaism, Islamic, and Catholic

Maybe that's because they all have the same original source. Christianity, Catholicism, they stem from Judaism. That's not really impressive. Now if there were the Angels Michael and Gabriel in native American culture, THAT would be impressive (and possibly justify some of the Morman claims).

And Mirabilis, that four winged, four faced creature that you described was called a Cherub-im. It's first described in the book of Ezekial. It also had the weird wheel at its base with the eyes on the outer rim- and the four wheels within it. Kind of sounded like a flying saucer. The description of the wheel was so hard to visualize. It also mentioned the dome that enveloped them. If I'm right about Yaweh being and transdimensional entity, this dome detail would be very interesting.

What is an angel and demon? Ultimately, I don't know. There has been so much crap handed down through so many religions, that if there ever was anything real about it, it's been polluted by too many peoples opinions and theories. The source material is too corrupt for any intellectual to be able to make a claim that he has found the truth. If god had any competence, he would stop relying on prophets and dictate his messages to ALL of humanity simultaneously (I mean, he is supposed to be omnipotent, right? He can't figure out a way to do that?) so that the message doesn't get screwed up.

Do I deny the existence of Angels or Demons? No. I believe that many different forms of alien life are possible. Cell structure and DNA are what we commonly see and define life by, and we have very little experience outside of our dimensional realm. I once woke up to being pulled across by bed, and had to fight to break free. I believe we can catalog our experiences in order to try and figure out what these things are. But we must realize that they are all just theories. Making a theory based on desires and prior myths we grew up with and love is simply foolish.

[The Luna Diviner]

if angels and demons do exist i think their existance has become somewhat diluted over the years and the many different religions. if they were in fact an acting force in the beginging of times, or still are, residing in heaven and hell, doing the bidding of the lord and of satan, than thats fine, but nowadays, i think angels and demons represent somethig different.

i dont think generally people think of an angel or a demon without thinking of good or evil. Demons have allways been represented as generally malevolent spirits, and angels as peaceful and holy messangers of god, and so i think that in present times, when the idea of a physical angel has become so diluted, that angels and demons are more sometihng people use to represent good and evil. angels, the soldiers, messangers of god, who loves and protects everyone with his power, is something very good and angels are seen as a force of light. Demons, a malevolent spirit bent of destroying humans and only willing to do satans bidding, very evil and corrupt. this is what i think of angels and demons now, that they are much less something that is going to posses you or protect you (guardian angel) but as a general concept to describe good and evil.

im not saying they dont exist. i still believe in them, so just to clarify:

Demon- a force used by satan to posses the spirits of weak willed humans, corrupting them, turning them against their lord and savior, preparing their souls for the coming of the antichrist so that satan can have an army ready to use on earth through all the corrupted souls. he will use the demons as a mediation to get to the humans so that his aquisition of earth goes more smoothly.

Angels- messangers of god, with gods infinite power and wisdom, he often times needs help looking over the billions of people who need his protection, so he sends angels to do that (where we get the term guardian angels) they protect the individual that they are looking over, transmitting them a more concentrated form of gods embrace. in the end times, during the final battle and the second coming, i feel it will be the angels who fight to rid the souls of the demons and of satans embrace to prepare them for their ascent into the kingdom of god.

(note, this is just my personal beliefe, im not saying its correct, and im not saying you have to listen to it, im just giving my response to the topic for the sake of conversation, if you dissagree, say so, i am open minded about my beliefes.)

[*Jess♥]

one of my favourite quotes is from beetlejuice.

Barbara: [reading the handbook] In the book: "Rule Number Two: the living usually won't see the dead".

Adam: 'Won't' or 'can't'?

Barbara: It just says 'won't'. God, this book is so stupid. I can't understand anything in it.

this applies to how i view demons and angels and other things usually reserved for fairy tales.

i believe that under certain circumstances, humans may easily be able to sense the astral plane and view etheric beings. etheric beings would be things like magical creatures that don't actually occupy the physical world, only the astral plane. if you were fully aware of the astral plane, you would 'see' these things as plain as day. but as the quote says, the living won't see the dead. the dead, or ghosts, being the imprint of a human that sometimes remains in the astral plane instead of moving up to the spirit plane (or heaven).

so, as humans don't usually notice these things, they are seen as hocus pocus. you can't detect the astral plane using technology. not yet anyway. one day maybe we could do that, but well...

so well... it's not exactly talking about it scientifically, and scientists would say it is silly stories. but i think that these concepts are generally accepted by most people. i don't see why it should be branded as silly just because technology is not at that level yet.

i think that demons and angels are ways that some religions use to describe certain etheric beings. of course some of them will align with what we view as good or align with god. some will align with what we view as evil or malevolent, or the devil.

of course i think that other beings such as dragons, centaurs, unicorns etc, can be classed as being demons or angels. but it depends on each persons own view.

[*V Guyver]

I tend to view the more cultural and historical reasons for the existence of traditional western angels and demons. The Angels started off as guardians of pagan gods in babylonia, and demons were really an adaptation of thousands of years of myths from countless European legends and pagan religions to create demons. Before that in the old testament they were simply cursed monsters descent from Kain and Lilith.

I find that many cultures and religions share many of the same concepts in demons and angelic beings. I used to think it was rather odd until I learned that Jews had progressed as far as Japan during the time of Rome dominence. Which might give a reason why these similar story's came about.

[*YoungGuyver]

he often times needs help looking over the billions of people who need his protection, so he sends angels to do that

Are you suggesting that god would not be omnipotent? That an all powerful entity would need help? I find that strange, for someone in modern culture to suggest that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with the point