Any World War II era weaponly effective against Zoanoids?

[Tora Tan]

We haven't seen barcas even have a zoalord form, so we don't know if he was fully processed ever.  I don't think we can take the appearance and abilities he shows to mean that he is a fully processed zoalord.  I mean, I suppose the bare minimum had to take place to insert the zoacrystal and allow it to be used, but is that a full processing, or can you just shove it in someone's head and it's all good or can it be done with archanfels pod simply by placing them inside  and adding the crystal? maybe it does a basic automatic process. but not on the level of what we see when shin transforms for example.

[Larz Zahn]

heres a good example to set a template by if anyone is interested. 

A guyver's head beam can kill most normal zoanoids. and it couldnt pierce a concrete wall. as seen in the second manga... 

 

wait...

 

i had it wrong, that was vamor's biolasers that melted the walls behind sho and tetsure in the second issue... i think  second issue, definetly the first volumn.... heck, the first fight he had with vamor!! 

 

so ignore all i just said, my entire basis for a template just went out the window.

 

as for balcus being a processed and non processed individual.  alky was the general of the advents army... and someone had to coach dear old "venerable" Balcus on how to hot wire advent tech... so im willing to submit to the high council that alky has science skills. and tutored balcus to some extent. 

 

then balcus had to literally backwards engineer any advent tech he could find while maintaining the kronus organization, all while alky slept.

 

 

one thing i do find interesting... as tora tan pointed out, heckering did help balcus with the zoalord processing... so i wonder. 

can existing zoaforms be upgraded like powered zerebubuth?  like have all previous zoalords already been created and processed, but every few years they go in for a tune up and upgrade procedures. nothing to collaborate this theory, but we have seen some zoanoids get upgraded. powered z wasnt a lost number but he probably had a pretty simple upgrade. neo extole was upgraded to a lost number, but he also was pumped so full of everything that his body just couldnt handle it. 

 

so are zoalords also a lost number, but their zoacrystals keep them in good health?

 

back to the topic, sorry i tend to ramble, what all normal weaponry have we seen be used against a zoanoid? i think all i remember pre xday, is a simple pistol and a grenade.

[Larz Zahn]

ok so i used lost number loosely. i realize that a lost number is accidental result that cant be replicated. at least, thats my take on it anyhow. not sure i understand the rest of the reproduction debates on the site. haha.

just wanted to clarify that remark before it set off an alarm.

[Matt Bellamy]

13 hours ago, Tora Tan said:

We haven't seen barcas even have a zoalord form, so we don't know if he was fully processed ever.  I don't think we can take the appearance and abilities he shows to mean that he is a fully processed zoalord.  I mean, I suppose the bare minimum had to take place to insert the zoacrystal and allow it to be used, but is that a full processing, or can you just shove it in someone's head and it's all good or can it be done with archanfels pod simply by placing them inside  and adding the crystal? maybe it does a basic automatic process. but not on the level of what we see when shin transforms for example.

We do know he can do something... As during the Gigantic Dark attack on Arizona, he was thinking of entering the battle, and was stopped by the other two Zoalords because they said his ability for the protection Archanphel only. ( I am at work without access to the page of manga)

It's true we don't know the scope of his abilities, other than enormous telepathic powers... And he is likely very different than the Zoalords he made... And I mean, Waferdanos wasn't even human at first... So Barcas could be anything.

But so far, per your argument, you've not stated any evidence to support that he isn't a "Processed Zoalord", other than speculation. And speculation is fine, unless evidence contradicts it... 

I'll be splitting this conversation as it has little to do with the topic, but definitely worth saving. *edit... or not. The split function has changed a bit in a previous update. Going to have to play with this.

[Tora Tan]

Isn't it all relevant, since we are using this to ascertain if zoanoids were likely around in world war 2? 

in any case, I am not really trying to support or promote any idea that barcas wasn't processed, just that i think we need to accept that we can't really say for sure to what extent that technology was available based on what the manga shows. is that fair to say?

[Larz Zahn]

one thing that will bother me is, if zoanoids did exist back then, even as far back as the american revolution, or the crusades... how come they haven't took over the world by that point... they would of vastly outclassed anything they came across.

 

so if balcus was 400+ years old during the 80's... well say 1985 just to make it even... 1985-400=1485...

 

then chronus started in the 15th century... (i think i have that correct.)  

lets be conservative and say it took balcus 100 years to figure out basic zoaforming technology. any longer and i'll start having doubts about balcus ineptitude.

 

it would be 1585.... then another hundred years to supplant and replace existing influential people with their own or clones...  ( was mizuki/zoanoid a clone, or a person undergone a procedure to keep her face? i literally have no recollection on that particular zoanoid... wasn't its name like bongo or something?)

 

so now its 1685.... with basic zoanoids and secret organization people... vs muskets and cannons. 

 

any problems with my math?  because i'll be the first to tell you, i have no idea whats needed for a world wide coup, nor would i realize how long it would take to organize such a thing.

 

[Salkafar]

1 hour ago, Larz Zahn said:

any problems with my math?

Yeah. 1985 - 400 = 1585.

Remember the science did not exist yet. At all. Even in concept. Archanfel had the ability to control Zoanoids, but I doubt he had the knowledge on how they were created.

So in practice, nobody on the planet knew what DNA was, or even what cells are, let alone how they worked. Barcas would have had no idea where to even start (Did Archanfel even ever witness Zoanoid production at all?). Nor did he have the tools. They should have made more out of the concept that Chronos guided human civilization to develop science.

Shin never said he had been processed 370 years ago. The Zoalords' battle forms may well be a recent development, planned for centuries, but only put into practice once technology caught up enough and they had had plenty of time to experiment on Zoanoids. Remember that Caerleon started to age rapidly the moment his Zoa-Crystal had been removed, which suggests to me the aging retardation is caused by it, not by being processed (although we don't actually know what effect processing has on aging. How old do Zoanoids get?).

The Zoanoid who imitated Mizuki was called Gelpess. It was a Lost Number with the unique ability to take on any human form. We have never seen Chronos make a clone, which is unnecessary anyway since Zoanoids can control anyone who has been processed, and it was stated that, for instance, any human could be made into a Ramotith.

[Larz Zahn]

15 hours ago, Salkafar said:

Yeah. 1985 - 400 = 1585.

Remember the science did not exist yet. At all. Even in concept. Archanfel had the ability to control Zoanoids, but I doubt he had the knowledge on how they were created.

So in practice, nobody on the planet knew what DNA was, or even what cells are, let alone how they worked. Barcas would have had no idea where to even start (Did Archanfel even ever witness Zoanoid production at all?). Nor did he have the tools. They should have made more out of the concept that Chronos guided human civilization to develop science.

Shin never said he had been processed 370 years ago. The Zoalords' battle forms may well be a recent development, planned for centuries, but only put into practice once technology caught up enough and they had had plenty of time to experiment on Zoanoids. Remember that Caerleon started to age rapidly the moment his Zoa-Crystal had been removed, which suggests to me the aging retardation is caused by it, not by being processed (although we don't actually know what effect processing has on aging. How old do Zoanoids get?).

The Zoanoid who imitated Mizuki was called Gelpess. It was a Lost Number with the unique ability to take on any human form. We have never seen Chronos make a clone, which is unnecessary anyway since Zoanoids can control anyone who has been processed, and it was stated that, for instance, any human could be made into a Ramotith.

lol!!  my math sucks! 

thanks for the info on gelpess.  kinda sucks that  it was a lost number, you'd think a zoanoid with that ability would be invaluable to a shadow organization like cronus.

 

I still have a hard time dealing with the fact that processing of any kind wasn't available back then... hard for my brain to accept a zoalord with a zoacrystal in their head without a little bit of bio engineering... not to mention that they had to of cloned alky zoacrystals to give to each high commander... unless... he just pulled 12 crystals out... but i think it was that the crystals were cloned.... someone is going to have to verify to make sure i'm not lying thru my teeth. i dont have access to the manga anymore, im working purely by memory... (my hard drive with all the manga is stored and locked away for about a year now. Moving sucks.)

 

[Gazham]

I seem to recall the zoacrystals being part of Arcanfel's own zoacrystal.

[Tora Tan]

he said that crystals taken from archanfel were cleaved and cultivated.
the crystal itself seems to be pretty marvelous. barcas maybe used archanfel's pod to do some work, or he used a well equipped chemistry lab.

we had a scene in the manga where barcas was able to locate the nav spheres in arizona. I believe it was said that was the source of all his information. he could scan it for data on zoanoid production. from that, he would mainly be limited by technology available. no computers. since the process is also called 'adjustment', I think it's necessary to be able to make slight variations in various chemicals and possibly genetic engineering etc. this stuff needs complex lab equipment so over time they would have had finer control.

just thinking now... the other zoalords have never seen silha so they were not processed in archanfel's pod. they needed a proper processing tank for it. they wouldn't even be able to do that without having the necessary materials science for it. they'd need vats that are strong and able to be kept adequately sterile etc. is there even anything we could compare it to? I am tempted to think of a brewery because that is a process that deals with fine biology and careful measuring of different chemicals.  could we extrapolate from that?

[Larz Zahn]

there were also the remains of other advent ships and sites. (i assume sites, i wonder if the advents did all their work in their ships) so its likely they found other... 1st gen pods and tanks. and they did also turn a entire lake into a processing tank as well.

[Tora Tan]

I find that really interesting actually. if they could have turned that lake into a processing tank earlier, they would have.  so perhaps that suggests they just couldn't do that kind of thing until recently.

 

I just had another thought.  they can't get inside relics normally. the time they did, and got the guyver units, the zoanoid melted as son as he got back outside. the one in arizona was pretty much dead.  i think the pod where archanfel was found, was a very rare occurrence. I think that relic, that was shot by guyver zero was very much dying, but maybe held on for a long time and provided some sort of sustenance for that pod?

[Salkafar]

Or maybe there really still is a living ship under the temple. The ship's acids would not prove a problem for a Zoalord: they can all generate force fields capable of stopping directed attacks, so what mechanically amounts to water would be no threat.

Which makes it a little strange to think Barkas didn't simply go in himself. Perhaps he was forbidden to do so by Archanfel. In fact I think he probably would have had to.

Mystery...

[Tora Tan]

perhaps the barrier technique is not an airtight/watertight bubble?  what do we know about it?

 

[Larz Zahn]

murakami used a barrier at a protozoalord level to prevent the group from being buried by guyot when he attacked them in the forest. other than that, there isnt alot of examples against physical things.