zeo

Yup, being navigators means they have to be good at math and other mental disciplines. . . except they don't need special guns to tap the power hidden in their body.

The original Out of Control F-G2 is already in the WG fan fic, the original Risker controlled Cyber Guyver Dark brought her to the WG universe with him, after recovering her CM from her universe, during Time War story arc. So we would either have to use an alternate of her, meaning there would be two of her, or create a new character. . . Though at the rate the other writers are progressing right now I think it'll be better if someone just write their own fan fic based on this idea and we can post it in the fan fic section of the site. . .

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Actually if you think about it, all zoaforms are specialized for a specific purpose and for the Navigator Zoalords their purpose is powering and controlling the Ark. . . So don't think of them in conventional zoalord terms, they are more like a cross between a Bio-Titan and a Overlord, providing energy reserves for the Ark and controlling it in the absence of the higher zoalords but they aren't intended to replace the higher zoalords and as such their telepathy is more precision than power. Which reminds me, has anyone here ever watched the anime "TRIGUN"? If you have, you can think of the Navigator Zoalords as Telepathic versions of Vash and Nails.

Hmm, well if we go by history then it would be more accurate to say both angels and demons co-existed since both were the messengers of the gods originally. . . at least until the cultural divide between Eastern and Western cultures. . . with the west aligning angels with good and demons with evil while the eastern cultures primarily associated supernatural forces and beings in general to demons or at least creatures that looked like demons. Not to mention the new age interpretation which portrays such beings from anything from being life from another dimension (meaning if you traveled to their dimension then you would be the demon) to beings created from the human group subconscious. . . So, it depends on which version of them you are refering to?

Of that list. . . Cyber Guyver Dark doesn't have a gravity control orb, his has been replaced by a EM Control Orb and is one of the reasons he often needs external energy since he can't really siphon from the boost dimension like other Guyvers. While Angel has both Gravity and EM control! Also remember Dreadnought's is augmented by his gravity shield as well as his Matrix powers.

Man, that would be one heavy sleeper Course if that is the case then if god ever awakens then we may not even be a memory Unless we create the uni-mind and become part of the sleeper, then when god awakes we won't be forgotten and can stick around for the next time god sleeps.

Not necessarily, it complicated but quantum also allows objects to act independantly. Like Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, the whole earth was a computer but not a single part was consciously aware of the process. It would be more accurate to say we would become part of god, like a vulcan mind meld. Essentially the ultimate level of communication, separate but intermingled. This may give us access to all knowledge, but it doesn't mean by itself that we become god. Basically awareness and control don't always go hand in hand. So let's call that plan A, result is we get to know all the answers and god finally tells us what it was all for before rebooting and starting the whole process again because omniscience would be ultimately boring. Your scenario would be far more likely if there wasn't already a god, then sentience becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as we create the cosmic uni-mind and the universe becames aware and at the end of time the cosmic consciousness creates a new universe to start the whole process over again. Something I would call plan B Plan C though is probably the worse case scenario, no god and no answers means cosmic consciousness goes insane, crashes and the universe reboots to start the whole process over again. Mind you, I've just built myself a new computer from scratch to save myself 2-3 thousand from the cost it would have taken if I just ordered the damn thing. A 3 day process btw, so I really got computer on the brain right now Later!

Good distinction, though I believe god is more than just knowledge and understanding. Thus it would take more than knowledge to ever become god. But I also believe god is part of everything, and so the potential to know what god knows is there I believe. Scientifically, if we could turn the entire universe into a single super quantum computer and then hooked all sentient brains into that then potentially we could know everything.

Two flaws in that line of thought... One, god is immortal. So no worry of him taking the secrets to the grave (though we may need to go to the grave or otherwise transcend our mortal shells to get access but that's a whole other issue). And two, a student may never surpass the master but it doesn't mean the student can't know all the secrets. For example, a student with a handicap will never be able to do the same things as the master without any handicaps but doesn't mean the student wouldn't know how if it wasn't for the handicap. It's like knowing how a magic trick is done, it doesn't mean you can do it yourself. No, science isn't devoid of faith or the desire for meaning. But rather like I stated before it is just "more" concerned with the how, because only through the how can we expand our knowledge and understanding. For example Einstein originally opposed quantum mechanics because he didn't like the idea that god would gamble. His philosophy was a search for order and purpose of everything and only when faced with evidence did he finally adjust his views that the meaning he sought for existence wasn't the version he originally contemplated. Being a scientist doesn't mean one has to be an atheist or forgo the desire for a greater meaning, it just tempers it with logic and what can be proven. But is otherwise very flexible in the realm of what could be imagined as being possible and why. . . Except science isn't the polar opposite of the metaphysical or the philosophical views. A good example is the law, it concerns itself a lot with what is provable but it also retains meaning and purpose. Neither science nor the law fully divorce themselves from philosophy or metaphysics. Science is just a tool for finding the truth, much like evidence is for the law. Scientific ethics for example cover morality and purpose. Only when science is abused would it divorce philosophy and become some monstrosity. You want polar opposite though then that would be mathematics, it is inflexible and absolute. Seeking neither meaning nor form, it simply is! A machine can do mathematics, but when dealing with a scientist or a metaphysicists you are still dealing with a human being. . . So I put forth to you that it is no more fanatical to seek knowledge with a possible ultimate goal of knowing everything versus seeking meaning and the possible ultimate meaning of everything. Both a metaphysicist and a scientist have similar ultimate goals, it may be your opinion we may never achieve those goals but it doesn't mean we can't or at the very least that we shouldn't continue to try. . . Really, would you tell someone with only one real leg that they can't run a marathon? The one thing about human nature is we're very stubborn but this has allowed us to accomplish many things that should have been beyond our capacity to do. . . A boxer with shorter arms indeed doesn't have the reach of someone with longer arms but that doesn't mean they can't box. But I'm not saying we will ever be god's equal. Even if we do one day understand everything, it doesn't mean we become gods equal any more than an audience who understands how a magician does his trick can necessarily do the trick themselves. I don't believe our philosophies are really all that different, just our level of optimism of the potential future differ. So whatever your conclusions are from this discussion, we can at least agree it was an interesting discussion.

Ah, but lets use an entertainment comparison and say does the audience have to be on the same level as the performer in order to understand the skill and accomplishment of the performer? I believe in many ways we are god's audience, we may never be god's equal but that doesn't mean we can't understand and admire what god has created. Sure thing, we all have our strong points and the differences as stated are what make these conversations interesting. However, you miss the point that we also have things in common. Metaphysics and Science aren't totally divorced from each other, there is overlap. Uh, I don't recall ever labelling you anything. I was under the impression we were just having an honest conversation of what we believe metaphysics and science entale? I'm obviously the wrong person to be chatting with then, just ask Ryuki, I can go on for ages and ages and uh, what decade is it again? I don't believe so, metaphysics doesn't require a how only meaning. It wouldn't be metaphysics if it went into the how and came up with an answer, it'd be physics then. Though Ryuki, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that point? As for transcending, yes metaphysics transcends science. It's why it's called "meta" I believe. . . However this is only because metaphysics often deal with things that can't be proven or disproven. Such as the existence of god. But my point is that as our accumulated knowledge increases things that were previously only under metaphysics slowly switch to science. Lightning for example was once purely metaphysical but now it falls under science because our knowledge has increased to include it. You can't really say for certain that the barriers between metaphysics and science will always be there, the one commonality is time changes all things. I never said there was nothing before the singularity, I said you have to think outside the box to understand there was something before the singularity. If you only think of a single segment of time then you of course will not be able to think of any other. Thus explaining the folly of the chicken and the egg question, regardless of the egg, if you limit the extent of your questionings then you will always leave possible explanations out of the context of your inquiries. . . Ergo, you can't find something you aren't looking for! Neither you nor I know the full potential of the human mind, to put a limit without knowing the full potential is also pretentious and arrogant to call anyone deluded. Only god knows what our limits are and it is simply my belief, I have them just like you, that god intends for us to one day know all. Whether we have to die and become one with god in order for that to happen is the question, but it is undeniable that god gave us intelligence and the desire to learn and understand. We only differ in what we believe the reason for this is. . . Btw, did you know science was started by the church? Scientific questions were once a part of the branch of metaphysics known as "natural philosophy". In fact the term "science" itself meant "knowledge" in reference to the limits of what is known. But with the advent of the scientific method, testing and so forth, that the natural philosophy became more limited to theorizing until the scientific method could either prove or disprove it. . .

Well that is where we differ Eether, I believe nothing is beyond our eventual understanding even if we have to evolve quite a bit before we achieve it. If we acted like things will be forever be beyond our reach or understanding then we would never have evolved to the point we have now. For example we routinely do what our ancient ancestors would have thought impossible in our everyday lives, centuries to millennias from now who knows what we would have achieved and learned. Though I honestly question your conclusions. For example I do not believe metaphysicists have to ask what came before the original egg because metaphysicists primarily deals with concepts and their meaning(s). This often boxes the analysis to a simple beginning and end. If you only consider the egg and chicken then you box yourself in from any outside answer and thus can't answer the question, the answer requires you to go beyond just the egg and chicken. It's like science with the singularity that led to the big bang, there simply may be that there was nothing before. But yet science can imagine what may have created the singularity and the big bang (brane theory), but it requires thinking outside the box. For metaphysicists it is like asking where did the first thought come from? In a universe born from consciousness, as metaphysics often stipulate, then the answer is it sprang from nothing. To take it further then you have to ask what did nothing come from or is it really nothing? Or spiritually it is like asking what came before god? You'd have to denounce the idea that god is the beginning to even consider it. So metaphysics doesn't necessarily preclude the idea that the egg came first and doesn't necessarily ask what came before. Though, I believe you misrepresented the difference between science and metaphysics on the chicken and egg question. Science came up with evolution exactly because they did consider what may have come before. The difference is science tests its ideas and backs it with research and accumulated evidence. Again, BOTH start out with concept/ideas! Remember, both the scientist and the metaphysicist use the same human brain to think on these things. So there is some overlap such as the process of conception and imagination of an idea. A more accurate difference would thus be to say Metaphysicists are more concerned about the "meaning" of something but Scientists are more concerned about the "how", even though both start out asking "why" and is their common ground. A good example is intelligent design versus evolution. . . Or you can just compare the answers between myself (the admittedly scientific minded) and Ryuki (who is far better at metaphysics than I am) Edit:> Notice for example the overlap on the god point? Mind you I started writing this post before Ryuki's response and so we similarly came up with a similar point but did so independently. So despite the differences in our philosophies we do have a similar basis from which we work our ideas out from. So the differences are in how we process the ideas and what we use to judge them by. . . Understand?

Guyot shielded himself with the Zoalord Barrier Shield, even then he barely survived the single mega smash from G3. However he bluffed them well enough for G3 to think the attack was ineffective. But as soon as the battle is over we see Guyot revert to his human form and collapse and then later back at base he is all bandaged up and it takes him at least a day or more to recover. Basically zoalords aren't generally known for their durability but rather their raw power, all zoalords possess the ability to create a barrier shield. Not to mention there is an upper limit to how durable any material can be, so even a Guyver Zoalord would need shielding to fully realize a level of durability equal to its power level. For example the same is true of the Gigantic, the armor is suppose to be denser than normal Guyver armor but attacks that can damage the regular Guyver can also damage the Gigantic Armor. The only real apparent difference is the Gigantic is thicker and generally harder to incapacitate than the regular Guyver. But otherwise the Gigantic depends on its barrier shield about as much as Zoalords do, though obviously a Guyver enjoys a far better regenerative capacity. The thing about the Guyver Zoalord though is that its power was so great that its aura alone acted as a shield, similar to say how the WG body shield protects him though GZ's is more of a side effect than intended.