Christian's Arrested At muslim Festivial In New York

[Aether]

no probs... it would make a change for the government to do something the people actually wanted!!

y know whenever i confront anybody on this sort of subject all i say is what goes around comes around. Britain is reaping what it sowed when we were the empire. we went and f**ed everyone over back then and now we are finding that karma is a bitch.

PEACE brothers and sisters !!

Edited July 25, 2010 by Eether

[Aether]

just to say, that i hope none of my posts seemed like an attack on ryuki as they wern't, i saw ryuki's post and really my distain for religion actually promted me to post, as i see it as the catalyst for many stupid events in the world.

kind of bringing this back onto the original topic, forgetting how they were handled etc. as that just highlights, incompetance, idiocy and corruption, i just want to say that this kind of situation shows that people hide behind religion to do stupid things.

matt gave a good analogy with the dog to the horse race.

i could really expand on why religion is antiquated and more hassle than its worth, but this is more about how peoples lawful rights are now entangled with their religious beliefs / rights? we have people, in what would be seen as a certain faiths country, having their human rights infringed by the fact that they believe something different than the majoritys beliefs who set the laws up!?!

what do we respect more peoples humanity or what they believe in????... its all a paradox, and forever will be until we end up destroying ourselves or just scrap the 3 main religions and start all over again.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Eether

[durendal]

I don't think it's religion that divides the people but rather the self-centerness of individuals who insists their beliefs into others. This issue is the prime example, that Christian guy was insisting his beliefs to a muslim community. Religion is not what people are arguing about, but rather who has the best religion. it's the age old vice of all men, trying to see who can piss the farthest. With the current issue at hand, I can simply substitue religion with a local sports team and you will still get the same result. Heck, I've seen a more violent reaction on a sporting event.

[Aether]

hmmm..the self centredness comes from their belief in their own religion, therefore it is religion that is the problem. if it didnt exsist they couldnt believe in it.

you dont tend to see religions other than the big 3 trying to impose there views on others or entering the whole' my religons better than yours' arguement.

i do get your pissing farther point but i dont think you can compare sports with religion. one is just enjoyment? the other can be looking at yourself, the world and exsistance in a profound way and giving thanks to a higher entity, or at least its meant to be. the fact some people care more about sports than other things is sad in itself. aslo sports are not intertwined within world politics and law, which the main 3 religions are.

to pit 1 religion against the other or to argue that one is better than the other is way beyond stupid. stupidty that causes stupid situations like the 2 given in this thread. stupidity that has given rise to pointless wars and countless deaths. which is why it enfuriates me. religion shouldnt be a free pass for humans to act like idiots towards eachother.

essentially the pinacle of all religion is the same, its just these fundamentalist retards on all sides dont seem to realise that.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Eether

[durendal]

True. But I don't believe what you call the "big 3" as the only propagator in conflicts. Perhaps that is what many think mainly because they are mostly covered by the news and a majority thus the frequent attention. I'm not even sure what your "big 3" is. What you refer to as those who become self-centered due to their beliefs are what you call fanatics. And we all know what happens to fanatics driven on the wrong direction. It's usually personal attacks and they are using religion as their justification for doing such. I won't argue about the sports/religion issue since it is not relevant.

And believe me, religion has caused far more stupidity than the one posted in this topic. Remember the crusades?

[Aether]

... I'm not even sure what your "big 3" is....And believe me, religion has caused far more stupidity than the one posted in this topic. Remember the crusades?

the big 3 are christianity, judaism and islam. over time they have messed up a vast majority of the world, europe, the middle east, africa, america, india and yes i include the crusades in the pointless wars i mentioned...its funny though that if there were no crusades there would probably be no USA as we know it. no crusades, no templars, no freemasons,who both founded and populated the country aswell as protestants to flee the hold of the catholic church.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Eether

[*Jess♥]

i'm not sure if i got this right, but i don't think it is part of islam to convert others?

well maybe not as much as in christianity?

I mean, I know full well what the word evangelism is. and some christians can be pretty aggressive about it.

the thing about islam though... the written penalty in islam for turning your back on islam is the death penalty.

so if these christians at the event had any real sense, they would have learned this and would not even be trying such a silly thing as they did. even if they weren't bluntly telling people to convert.. it's clear what their intention is.

saying religion is to blame..

in some ways correct in some ways not correct.

I think because the term religion is actually fairly ambiguous.

I mean, if somebody reads the bible, makes their own interpretation but does not go to churches and does not wear cross etc, are they religious?

what are we calling it?

or is somebody who never read the bible and yet wears a cross and just follows what their dad says....

I think it's more as durendal said. fanaticism. and fanaticism exists in all places. most definitely sports. this is where the violence comes from.

i believe it is psychological in that this person has such personal issues, they have to engross themselves completely in what it is they become fanatical about.

it becomes their whole world and is why they would then live or die for it.

[Aether]

we can blame fanaticism, but like i said if religions didnt exsist people couldnt be fanatical about it. if someone has a pyschological predisosition to fanaticism theres nothing to say it will manifest as religious but the fact that religion is indoctrinated into people will increase the chance of it being religious fanaticism. which is dangerous. that is not free will. religion is powerful and can be used for good or bad... the big 3 like i said are intertwined in world politics and law. these effect everybody. not just a fantaical individual. being fanatical about something other than religion (or world domination)really doesnt matter to a good portion of the world in the grand scheme of things.

what defines someone as being religious? is a good question, it really is an ambiguous term...

i suppose you could say there are 4 types

1.non practicing - born into but doesnt care

2.religious - believes in that religion but doesnt practice or engage in thought of the faith

3.practicing religious - part of religious community that has faith, recognises and practices beliefs and customs of that religion

4.religious faith - not necessarily part of that religions community but believe in that god and draws some spiritual gain from the faith

its hard to say from your examples, the second one is obviously no.1 or 2 ,but the first does not mention wether they believe in the christian or catholic god? - because remember according to the different religions theirs is the true god! i have read portions of the bible apart from the mandatory studies at school , but that is just through my own theological and historical research not for any spiritual gain. to me its just a book attributed to a certain set of beliefs, same as the torah or koran or the rig veda would be. i dont gain anything spiritual from it... if that person does read the book and gets something from it that enriches their spirit and they continually use the book for such reasons then i would say that they are no.4 in my list and are in some way of that religion...

i'd say the only way you could practie something of a religion and not be classed as being part of it in some way ,it is something like people who do yoga or work with chakras etc. - they are really practicing a portion of esoteric hinduism but does that make them of the hindu religion? not really

i'll say aswell that anyone from the first 3 of my list could very well act idiotic and use religion as an exscuse, but no 4 would not. in this way i would say that no 4 are truly spiritual rather than religious its just that they use that religion as a spiritual crux because they either dont know or wish to know any dfferent or believe its the best form of faith for them.

i think ive made it pretty clear what i think, and any more would probably be best off in a seperate topic anyway,as i feel ive hijacked this thread with my view on organised religion enough already!

Edited July 27, 2010 by Eether

[Yamato381]

Oh boy.

Well.

I think I'll just start with a question, since I can't listen to or watch the videos...

Were the Christians invited to answer questions, or did they hop onto the stage and spew Gospel?

[durendal]

In this case, it would be much better if you can watch it yourself. But I will try to convey to you what happened. Although my description would contain events not necessarily neutral but based on how I see it.

The event started out with the guy praying over another person. With a crowd slowly gathering in this guy, a few people approached and asked questions. Of course, the guy answered in return. The most notable question that I can remember is one boy asked why is "Christian better than muslim", and he asked this with a smirk on his face. And the question and answer continued with the people asking question in a sarcastic way. Minutes later, a few police officers arrived, asked the guy to come with him and handcuffs him. All of this happend in a casual way, no shouting, no violence, no sharp reaction. Only notable points about this is the hidden contempt on the faces of the crowd.

Just to add my two cents, if the crowd was trully interested in learning what was being preached, they wouldn't have that scornful smile on their faces.

[*V Guyver]

In this case, it would be much better if you can watch it yourself. But I will try to convey to you what happened. Although my description would contain events not necessarily neutral but based on how I see it.

The event started out with the guy praying over another person. With a crowd slowly gathering in this guy, a few people approached and asked questions. Of course, the guy answered in return. The most notable question that I can remember is one boy asked why is "Why are Christians better then Muslims", and he asked this with a smirk on his face. And the question and answer continued with the people asking question in a sarcastic way. Minutes later, a few police officers arrived, asked the guy to come with him and handcuffs him. All of this happend in a casual way, no shouting, no violence, no sharp reaction. Only notable points about this is the hidden contempt on the faces of the crowd.

Just to add my two cents, if the crowd was trully interested in learning what was being preached, they wouldn't have that scornful smile on their faces.

Yeah that disturbed me a little. Like I said before, the Muslims were not much better. In religious practices, in many faiths, you are supposed to ignore people. It's considered a temptation, but starting up an arguement with them over nothing is a form of tempation, at least that is what some schools of thought preach. You only take action when fellow person is threatened. On the other hand they probably thought they were doing a service to the gathered community by starting tat, and their goal (And I'm certian about this) was to provoke them and/or get them kicked out.

My advice to the christian when asked "Why are Christians better then Muslims?", I would of responded. "It's not that Christians are better, neither is. But I believe they have the better understanding of God's will." Or something like that, don't just rebute their beliefs. When chistianity spread, it wasn't originaly through "My religion is better then yours" It was a message of saving your souls and christs teachings. then some hundreds of years ago some crazed spanish fanatics decided force feed everyone christianity or kill them. Even the Muslims didn't do that in their cnquests, they instead converted peopel via economics and politics.

[Yamato381]

I see.

Well, yeah.

I guess faults lie on both sides of the border.

I mean, I'm not all too proud of my faith's history, with the Crusades and all that.

Something tells me "Christians" still get the message wrong a whole lot.

At the same time, it is best to start a religious conversation if you're willing to listen...and the Muslims asking them questions (I watched a few of the videos) seemed as if they had been planning to put these four in prison the entire time.

Human nature strikes again.

I guess it's kind of a balance of evils, then.

[Mirabilis]

Well ryuki, there are other situations like this. For instance a friend of mine who goes to church told me, about two weeks before I posted this topic, that a christian was arrested in New York for flying the Christian Flag in his yard, and wouldnt take it down, when his offended neighbor asked him to.

And, something, that I think is horid personally, happened. New York allowed a mosque to be built on ground zero! Now, I do not have issues with muslims, or islamic belief. but I think that building a mosque, right where over 3 thousand people died by people who claim to be muslims is not a good thing for anyone. Now imagine how bad things will be for the muslims who go to that mosque. Harrassments and profantiy at them will probably be increased. Now people who go to show respect at the towers can turn around and say to their children "Those people across the street did this."

Do you see what I mean? This will not end good for anyone. Especially the muslims who are going there. But I also think that this was very disrespectful for the ones who died. They should have put it somewhere else in NW, not right ontop of the death site of over thousands of people.

P.S. As I said, I do not think that muslims are bad, or horid, I believe that what the U.S. government did is horid. Approving the mosque showed not have happened. They should have relocated it somewhere else. Muslims have rights too. But I strongly disapprove of this.

[durendal]

Although I don't believe that building a mosque over ground zero is something to build up controversy, I firmly believe that people who brands Muslim as the one responsible for the attacks as a much more inappropriate action. The actions of a few people does not neccessarily mean that they are all alike.

Additionally, the Islamic center is not going to be built on ground zero itself, but a few block away from the former site of the World Trade Center.

What upsets me about religious issues is not about the actions people would take, but the way they are thinking. It simply shows how narrow minded most people are.

[Mirabilis]

Well As I said before, I personally do not have problems with muslims or islam. They have the right to pratice their beliefs too. Islam is not the issue. The problem is a few people who claim to have killed those people, also claim to be apart of Islam as well. Doing so would give the masses a reason why to hate or dissaprove of Islam.

Are all Muslims terrotist? No. Are all terrorist Muslims? No. Remember the bombing in Chicago? Their are christian terrorist too. And they cause many problems. As my brother said "You should not say to someone, you cannot be (and then any religious belief behind that sentence)."

[*Jess♥]

this is what happens when you have a US constitution.

people are free to practice their religion where they want subject to appropriate laws.

it was a city planning issue and as such there was no reason to possibly deny the plans.

I think it was handled correctly. there should be no link between islam and the trade center attack.

it was al qaeda who attacked the trade center, not islam.

so i believe that by building the mosque there regardless of any persons mistakened linking with any event of the past, is the correct thing to do.

this is actually a positive step towards reversing the overly-PC and judgemental culture we have in the world today.

because let's face it. if they deny the building of a mosque within 2 blocks of 'ground zero', how many blocks does it have to be until it is ok? and who gets to make that decision?

there was a very interesting programme on TV yesterday.

it was a programme against the battle with drugs. the programme covered the cultivation of poppys and production of opium in afghanistan.

there was a man who was on trial by the new court system created by the allied forces in afghanistan. he was a night watchman in a place where they stored the opium. this mans home had been obliterated by an allied forces attack. he had nothing, was completely destitute and had to find a way to support his family of 12. now, in sharia law, he would be allowed to take whatever means necessary to support his family given his situation, but under this new legal system, there was no leniency. the man was in distraught and pleading with the judge, he had no alternative, and was getting paid hardly anything anyway, however he was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment and a $12,000 fine. this is what our governments have done to these people.

his cousin came to the city to try and appeal his brothers case. the most poignant part of the documentary was the man shouting while in tears "it's this demonic law system, those british have ruined our lives" .

now being british, this weighs heavily on my heart. my government never did a public opinion poll on whether or not to go to war in afghanistan. there was no opinion poll, no referendum. nothing. in fact, our prime minister of the time lied to us all in order to justify his actions. now the people in this country are cursing all british, and i am left feeling the weight of this and also feeling utterly betrayed by my government.

so is this all a religion issue? no. actually i think the current attitude towards the differences between religions.. i think is a smokescreen.

[river_chaos]

Mind if I ask a stupid question? I've noticed that some people call what those four Christians did as racism. Can someone enlighten me where the hell that came from? If it were an all black-skin Muslim festival, I might understand.

Am I just missing something here entirely?

[*Jess♥]

i think it's just that more recent times, racism has been used as a catch-all phrase for discrimination.

[river_chaos]

Ahh. That I can understand.

[symbol]

Fear, propaganda, lies, deception. This is how our lives are ruled. Words like 'terror' and 'drug war' are nothing more than farces to keep the cattle in line.

The truth is that truth does not exist.

As for this being a remote incident? This is anywhere in the world, folks. I see it every day. Open your eyes, and you will too. If choose to.

Most people are content living in the lies, because to see otherwise would be overwhelming. Understandable, but I would rather live a day in truth than in lifetime of lies.

[durendal]

Well, best wishes to you then. Because frankly speaking, the history of the world was built upon lies and deciet. When nations are at war, it doesn't matter who is right and justified, it is the victor who will dictate what is right. Who knows, God forbid, should Hitler had won World War II, we would have deemed Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchhill as the demons of their era. We say that let the future generation judge the history of the world, but truth be told, it is the victor who writes the history.

How this relates to the topic? I don't know, but I'm sure that no matter what kind of religion there is, there are bound to be half-truths.

[Yamato381]

Well said...

I've already recognized some half-truths in my own church and in Christianity in general and it drives me straight up the wall.

Which is why denominations exist.

Unfortunately, I think it'll be a long while before any of us ever agree on what's actually according to God.

And it's education that changes our views. A North Korean woman firmly believed in the teachings of her government just because she was kept completely in the dark about the rest of the world. Of course, with all the hunger and power outages she came to realize this was probably wrong, and was eventually convinced to escape N. Korea and defected through China into S. Korea.

She's even featured in a novel about this.

So it's not even a victor that matters; that will only matter after a war. But education is what makes the difference.

We were taught the Nazis were evil and twisted and madmen. In Nazi Germany the opposite was true.