What real weaponry do think the Guyver armor could stand?

[LordSpleach]

We've definately seen the Guyver take handgun bullets, but I wonder how much it can from real weapons?

I think Dragon Skin body armor can provide a good example of what the Guyver could probably take.

[*BananaKing]

Well seeing how the guyver armor can be slashed, stabbed, bitten off, im not willing to say its uber tough. I mean it can't withstand a nuke but its definatly far superior and more protective than most armor

[*zeo]

Dragon Skin Body Armor is pretty impressive, despite the controversy over its development and the fact the military decided not to use it (mostly because of politics, which they justified by the early poor results that ignored the later model's improvements).

However the performance of this armor would still be poor in comparison to the Guyver's, even standard zoanoids have shown that at least most like Gregole can withstand 7.62x51mm NATO rounds (as demonstrated on X-Day). So the Dragon Skin Armor is more in line with Zoanoid level durability, though a human soldier can still get knocked down and suffer internal injuries (stopping the round doesn't stop the impact force) while zoanoids are pretty much impervious unless hit with even more powerful firepower. I would probably say you'd need a (12.7x99mm NATO) or .50 BMG round (the type used in sniper riffles that can hit targets up to a mile and a half away), especially the incindiary or H.E. type to overcome zoanoid body armor. Though hyper zoanoids are much more durable and can take small artillary fire.

Considering it usually takes Hypers to damage Guyvers, or something specialized like Enzymes, that we can pretty much say a Guyver is also in a similar durability range as the Hypers. In other words a Guyver is tougher than an Ambram's tank Uber tough compared to human body armor but not indestructable.

For example there's the sonic blasts that G1 withstood in the new anime that were stated that they could shatter steel, and G1 withstood multiple strikes that only succeeded in knocking him around. We also have the time G1 has withstood Darzerb's enhanced Napalm Breath, which is rated at 3900 degrees, which would liquidate and even vaporize most materials, even granite turns to slag at 3700 degrees and the Dragon Skin armor wouldn't protect against that kind of heat. But the Guyver can just walk through it unharmed, even the Guyver head beam that has been seen slicing through steel I-Beams with ease can not burn through the armor. It'll take high explosives just to break off the Guyver Sords and all that is not even counting the Guyver's ability to regenerate.

[*Jess♥]

it is worth noting that these exmples taken the 12 OVA may not be thorooughly accurate since that OVA was enhanced for dramatisation.

in the first parts of the manga, the guyver ws pretty much unscathed.

that's what made the enzyme fight even more shocking.

the only notable examples that i can think of is guyver 2 firing on him and aptom firing on him.

actually, I was quite shocked to see that aptoms fire power seemed to exceed guyver 2's.

[*Kenji Murakami]

I don't know about taking on a Guyver, but you could probably do some decent damage to Zoanoids with this:

Or, with a few modifications, this thing:

[Hyper_Guyvantic]

You know I have been wondering if that Baretta AS-50 Caliber Sniper rifle that was in a Futureweapons amd a weaponology epsiode on snipers could do significant damage to Guyver armor.

But most of all, I always wondered what would happen if a car hit the Guyver. Would he/she (since our favorite red head guyver has finally appeared again ) stand and cave the whole engine block in, alla Clark "I dont want to be Superman" Kent from Smallville? Or would he, like everything else be thrown about but with little to no damage done to his/her body?

[*Jess♥]

guyver one weighs 261kg.

a small car weighs about 1000kg.

a medium sized care weighs about 2000kg.

on initial investigation you would think that the care could send guyver flying.

that's not taking into account the momentum enhancers in guyvers legs.

it is stated in the VDF that the momentum enhancers increase guyvers stability and give it a steady base in cases of grappling.

I would hazard a guess that this gives him an incresed effective weight.

the description of teh momentum enhancers when referrig to punching power say it icreases effective mass by tenfold.

so that would likely increase effective mass of guyver to around 2610kg.

that would mean, if I am right in my assumptions, guyver would stand his ground against most regular cars.

a large car such as a 4x4 though... that would most likely send guyver flying.

[*zeo]

Well it would depend on momentum, the car's kinetic force is just like anything else. Mass x Speed!

All the figures you just gave are the rest mass but speed can multiply that very quickly. Conversely the Guyver could also be running towards the car for a counter force. In which case the Guyver might just tear through the car like tissue paper.

[*Jess♥]

that's true. also i guess there is the factor of the stress resistance of the material of the car. a guyvers leg is quite thin, it'd be like ploughing into a lamppost.

my expectation is that the guyver would be moved backwards. he wouldn't be bowled over, rather he would remain upright and his feet would create a furrow in the ground while the car wraps around him.

I haven't kept up with smallville and i haven't seen him get hit by a car, is this what happened in that?

[*zeo]

Yes but Smallville doesn't exactly follow the laws of physics with any consistency. . . but you may be right, depends on the Guyver's footing and whether he was ready for the impact or not, since the Guyver has been knocked around by similar force from Hyper Zoanoids, like Zerebubuth, etc. while at other times, like the OAV grapple with the out of control G1, the Guyver has stood its ground.

[Hyper_Guyvantic]

But what about the AS-50 Calibler Sniper Rifle I mentioned?

[*Jess♥]

since we haven't seen the strength of the guyver armour vs penetration, we can't really say.

[*zeo]

I believe that since the Guyver can withstand attacks that would shatter steel, as shown in the new Anime as G1 withstood multiple high pressure sonic attacks, that the Guyver would be impervious to even the .50 BMG rounds that riffles like the AS-50 fire.

A .50 BMG can penetrate anywhere from 2-3 steel armor plates in a row but this pales in comparison to the force needed to shatter steel. Of course this doesn't mean it can't still hurt a Guyver, even if it is equivalent to throwing a pebble at someone, if properly targeted to a possible weak spot like the eyes, but it does suggest the Guyver is extremely resistant to at least low level anti-tank weaponry.

[Guest IC Ominae]

Armor as always is a question of what you want to protect against. For instance chain mail is the near ubiquitous historical armor favored against melee weapons for most of history. While research has shown it has to potential to help improve the performance of ballistic fiber soft body armor, it by itself would be impotent against a bullet. Modern soft body armor on the reverse will protect against small arms, but provide minimal hindrance to a kitchen knife.

It's not like those RPGs where things are measured by HP. It's about the intensity of the energy, momentum, and otherwise in addition to projectile design. The Bio-booster armor had with the formerly police standard 38 Special revolver in Episode 2, even when it was loaded with soft lead hollow points that deformed cleanly on impact. The originally tested hollow points in water tanks, before going to ballistic gelatin, which simulates normal human flesh so it's not like it's some great feat to make them deform as designed. Given that it honestly is very hard to justify any serious rifle caliber having issues with penetration.

Derzerb's Napalm business is largely irrelevant. During Vietnam combustion bombs, the Magnesium bomb in particular was able to reach 3,500 degrees Celsius but only saw service against soft targets. The real stuff being based on Napalm didn't behave like a guy with a spray can's interpretation of a flamethrower either like Derzerb is portrayed with. Napalm is very viscous sticky goop, hence very hard to get off.

Dragon Skin Body Armor is pretty impressive, despite the controversy over its development and the fact the military decided not to use it (mostly because of politics, which they justified by the early poor results that ignored the later model's improvements).

Uh-huh. If I could locate it again I could bring an article up from the guy that originally invented scale style ballistic armor about the issues with the Dragon Skin implementation of the technology he pioneered. He sided with the brass, by the way.

However the performance of this armor would still be poor in comparison to the Guyver's, even standard zoanoids have shown that at least most like Gregole can withstand 7.62x51mm NATO rounds (as demonstrated on X-Day).

Where? Most of the blazing away should be with 5.56x45mm, as appropriate.

To get 7.62x51mm you're talking about a machine gunner at the platoon level with the platoon GPMGs, a vehicle mount, a sniping platform, or the rare special issue ala the Denmark patrol issued 30-06 rifles and 10mm Glocks for defense against polar bears. Further what makes you think the 7.62x51mm shown wasn't ball in the case of a GPMG or a hollow point in the case of a sniper platform as is standard? AP ammunition can be issued with superior penetration, but doesn't exactly help you against soft targets.

5.56x45mm would probably have been SS109s as that is the NATO standard, as pitiful as it's terminal performance can be. As a matter of fact given SS109s known issues and Zoanoid regeneration capacity anything less then a SAW probably shouldn't be considered evidence one way or the other. There's been at least on incident where a accident have resulted in a SS109 going through a soldiers leg and just drilling through with no extra tissue damage, result was soldier was med up ridiculously fast.

I would probably say you'd need a (12.7x99mm NATO) or .50 BMG round (the type used in sniper riffles that can hit targets up to a mile and a half away), especially the incindiary or H.E. type to overcome zoanoid body armor. Though hyper zoanoids are much more durable and can take small artillary fire.

What are you on about? HE is to increase damage on soft targets and straight up incendiary isn't exactly that useful against a target that doesn't have something analogous to a fuel tank or powder magazine. Adding these features detracts from the penetration capability of a round verse dedicated AP.

Furthermore artillery fragments have been something one can provide meaningful protection against since the Flak jackets issued during Korea, nevermind the updated ones in Vietnam. Ballistic Nylon is adequate for that, without strictly speaking having to bring more advanced ballistic fibers such as Kevlar into the equation.

I expect you're referring to when the tanks which had none of the characteristics of a Abrams other then looking vaguely like them, were shooting some kind of explosive round. Crew arrangement is so critical to tank design, I'm not giving that a waiver for literary license. Given what was shown it's hard to justify it as high velocity as opposed to low velocity explosives, not that it should matter. The Zoanoids portrayed were slaughtered by said rounds, sacrificed to get them in range of the Vamores. Canister shot is implied given the short ranges, and the fact they rarely make direct hits. Neither the Monroe or Misznay-Schardin effects work unless it's a direct hit so HEAT and HESH respectively would if anything decrease the threat to target in terms of what was depicted.

Of course this poor performance could be 90% blamed on usage of the wrong platform. IFV class vehicles with support of artillery and air strikes being the one's really tasked with slaughtering masses of lightly armored targets. Tanks are for bigger targets.

If anything one can argue that US troops are better protected then Zoanoids. All but the most hardened Hypers bow to a revolver firing 12 guage ala 20mm HESH for crying out loud. Even WW2 HESH makes that look anemic. You'd have a very hard time justifying 20mm Vulcan not being utter to slaughter even them. Thank God for spall liners.

Considering it usually takes Hypers to damage Guyvers, or something specialized like Enzymes, that we can pretty much say a Guyver is also in a similar durability range as the Hypers. In other words a Guyver is tougher than an Ambram's tank Uber tough compared to human body armor but not indestructable.

Scissors beats paper, paper beats rock, so scissors beat rock? If you want to make that astronomically improbable claim you will need better then that. Even a WW1 tank wouldn't be impressed by a guy with the police standard 38 Special revolver, which canonically gave the armor, albeit minor, issues.

I believe that since the Guyver can withstand attacks that would shatter steel, as shown in the new Anime as G1 withstood multiple high pressure sonic attacks, that the Guyver would be impervious to even the .50 BMG rounds that riffles like the AS-50 fire.

A .50 BMG can penetrate anywhere from 2-3 steel armor plates in a row but this pales in comparison to the force needed to shatter steel. Of course this doesn't mean it can't still hurt a Guyver, even if it is equivalent to throwing a pebble at someone, if properly targeted to a possible weak spot like the eyes, but it does suggest the Guyver is extremely resistant to at least low level anti-tank weaponry.

Are you seriously comparing resonance effects to projectiles, and ignorant enough to not recognize you need to specify more then a RHA plate? All RHA doesn't have the same characteristics, and you can be assured all plates are not made the same thickness or otherwise.

Nevermind that 50 BMG is powerful enough to have issues with shattering steel with modern AP rounds hence use of other materials for the penetrator, which destroys the whole dubious premise anyway. Steel Penetrators having issues with shattering due to the intensities involved dates back to the end of WW2. We've come a long way since then.

Edited April 15, 2009 by IC Ominae

[*zeo]

Uh-huh. If I could locate it again I could bring an article up from the guy that originally invented scale style ballistic armor about the issues with the Dragon Skin implementation of the technology he pioneered. He sided with the brass, by the way.

I'm aware of that, in fact it was why I originally didn't believe the claimed effectiveness of the armor (mind you I even questioned the Future Weapons Review on it), but that was in the beginning and ignores the later improvements for the final class III armor. Unfortunately the whole situation was mired in politics and the later test results from the improved model were mostly ignored, which is shame since they obviously made remarkable improvements to the design. But politics often effects the selection of military equipment, which is why I think we definitely need to establish trustworthy 3rd party testers in these matters.

Derzerb's Napalm business is largely irrelevant. During Vietnam combustion bombs, the Magnesium bomb in particular was able to reach 3,500 degrees Celsius but only saw service against soft targets. The real stuff being based on Napalm didn't behave like a guy with a spray can's interpretation of a flamethrower either like Derzerb is portrayed with. Napalm is very viscous sticky goop, hence very hard to get off.

You are correct that the fuel gel mixture of napalm is designed to be stringy and sticky, and readily adheres to most surfaces. But even with this property that doesn't necessarily mean it'll stick to the Guyver's Bio-Armor. Adhering to most materials does not mean it'll stick to all materials!

Though at 3900 degrees, assuming this is Celsius then 3900 degrees Celsius = 7052 degrees Fahrenheit, it would burn itself out relatively quickly in any case and that might make it appear like a typical flame thrower dependent on the amount of material fired. A fine spray for example will disappear very quickly for example.

However I should also point out that Darzerb doesn't always directly fire the napalm onto his target, many times he just targets the ground in front of or around his target. So we don't know how sticky his version is but the Guyver has walked through this flame unharmed, which translates to prolonged exposure and thus proves the Guyver is extremely heat resistant. . .

Also though primarily used against soft targets, napalm has been used against a variety of targets including tanks. Basically all materials, if heated to high enough temperatures will burn, including tank armor!

Mind you normal napalm doesn't reach 3900°C and may only induce limited and probably indirect damage to a tank, dependent on how effective the tank's environment is controlled and how well everything is sealed, but Darzerb's 3900°C is closer to say what you would get from a Thermite bomb which can burn through most materials. Iron Oxide based Thermite, which is used for things like welding, burns at about 2500°C for example and can in bomb form turn a typical engine block to slag. So the more intense 3900°C should be able to damage even modern tank armor, at least with prolonged exposure since you need close to 5000°C for more instant results.

In comparison you only need 1050°C to cremate a human. So nothing human would survive Darzerb's Napalm breath.

Where? Most of the blazing away should be with 5.56x45mm, as appropriate.

The FN FAL, which was still in use during the 80's and early 90's, uses 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and is the weapon I've identified the soldier is holding in the scene shown during one of the X-Day event panels, the one that looks like Paris. Remember the Manga dates back to the mid-80's, so much of Takaya's military references would of course appear outdated now. The Air Carrier shown on X-Day for example was retired right about the time that issue came out back in the 90's.

We have no way of knowing if AP rounds were used or not but a 7.62 is a heavy round in any case and would cause significant damage to soft targets regardless of type. In regards to the topic, this at the very least shows that standard zoanoids can be durable enough to withstand virtually any amount of standard small arms fire. Though not all zoanoids are equally armored, some have very little armor while the majority (at least those shown the most) appear unaffected by small arms fire. While hypers are rated for much higher durability, with some even being specifically stated as able to withstand artillery fire (as in direct hits!).

In comparison the Guyver's sonic busters for example can vaporize standard zoanoids at relatively close range but have limited effect on Hypers.

What are you on about? HE is to increase damage on soft targets and straight up incendiary isn't exactly that useful against a target that doesn't have something analogous to a fuel tank or powder magazine. Adding these features detracts from the penetration capability of a round verse dedicated AP.

I would think this obvious, zoanoids are still primarily organic living beings. HE or more specifically HEIAP rounds, once a round has penetrated the outer armor layer can cause significant internal injuries as it explodes within the soft tissue areas. Since zoanoids can apparently take severe damage before dying it would be wise to use rounds that maximize damage. While incendiary rounds can prove effective with those zoaforms that use chemical based weapons.

Furthermore artillery fragments have been something one can provide meaningful protection against since the Flak jackets issued during Korea, nevermind the updated ones in Vietnam. Ballistic Nylon is adequate for that, without strictly speaking having to bring more advanced ballistic fibers such as Kevlar into the equation.

Show me one Flak jacket that will let someone survive a direct hit from an artillery shell? A Direct Hit!? Never mind bazooka, RPG's, and other similar weapons hyper zoanoids have been shown being hit by.

Sorry, but it's quite a stretch taking something said to be able to withstand artillery fire and switching to surviving explosive fragmentation fall out. Whenever range is not given it is a given that the reference is to a direct hit. Never mind the definition of artillery includes all types of cannons including tanks, covering basically all types of coordinated heavy firepower, including AP, and not just the anti-personnel types.

If anything one can argue that US troops are better protected then Zoanoids. All but the most hardened Hypers bow to a revolver firing 12 guage ala 20mm HESH for crying out loud. Even WW2 HESH makes that look anemic. You'd have a very hard time justifying 20mm Vulcan not being utter to slaughter even them. Thank God for spall liners.

Since you are referencing Murikami's Zoabuster gun, you should note that Darzerb was impervious to it as shown in the new anime series. The weapon was only really useful against the standard zoanoids. Also something with the power of a 20mm HESH would defeat any standard issue body armor, except maybe a level IV and even then only for a single hit.

A 20mm HEI

And a regular size comparison between 20mm and 50 BMG's, with a golf ball for scale.

The WWII HESH were much larger but they were used against tanks and other armored targets, usually killing with the conducted shock wave rather than with penetration. You'll need a lot less to handle infantry with only body armor, human bodies break apart much easier than zoanoids.

Are you seriously comparing resonance effects to projectiles, and ignorant enough to not recognize you need to specify more then a RHA plate? All RHA doesn't have the same characteristics, and you can be assured all plates are not made the same thickness or otherwise.

It's called physics, the sonic hyperzoanoids fired soliton sonic shock waves, not resonance blasts! All sound is simply a series of shock waves traveling through the air. You need a series of shock waves timed to the resonance frequency of an object in order to destroy it with resonance. Since they were firing a single pulse at a time this is thus the same as any physical impact weapon capable of shattering steel.

As for RHA, it's only relative if we are comparing to the thickness of the armor of the subject matter. In this case the Guyver probably only has about an ~1/4 to 1/2 inch of armor averaging over its body, which is about the 10 mm thickness of most armor target plates used on rifle target ranges.

Nevermind that 50 BMG is powerful enough to have issues with shattering steel with modern AP rounds hence use of other materials for the penetrator, which destroys the whole dubious premise anyway. Steel Penetrators having issues with shattering due to the intensities involved dates back to the end of WW2. We've come a long way since then.

Yes, steel tends to be pretty brittle under stress but the force needed to consistently shatter steel, of undetermined size, thickness, and alloy density means we are dealing with a force approaching the kinetic energy level of a typical solid tank shell. Since tons of force per every square inch has to be applied faster than the steel could absorb it and to cover a mass of about the size of the Guyver.

In comparison a .50 BMG API was recently shown fired through a stack of 18 hard drives, which are mostly aluminum. The round was stopped by the 17th drive and none of the drives were shattered.

http://gizmodo.com/5180227/how-many-hard-d...-piercing-round

Giving us a good indication that it'll take a quite a bit more than a .50 BMG to make something the size of a Guyver, and made of steel, shatter.

[LordSpleach]

In comparison the Guyver's sonic busters for example can vaporize standard zoanoids at relatively close range but have limited effect on Hypers.

That may be true, but remember Guyver III was injured and carrying Mizuki and Tetsuro while flying when he used his sonic busters on Gaster. He might not of had the concentration he needed to focus on Gaster's frequency.

[*zeo]

Vaporizing, using sonics, does not require specific frequency... Just raw power, your body doesn't have a specific frequency to vaporize it. You're not a single material object, density varies from your bones to your individual cells. And the same would be true of zoanoids.

Only when using resonance do you have to worry about frequency, but your whole body would have to have the exact same properties throughout, but sonic vaporizing works by brute force. Basically more energy is delivered per pulse than the material can absorb or conduct, forcing the material into a higher kinetic energy state.

Also we have the new anime series, in which the same scene had both Guyvers using the sonic busters repeatedly on Hyper Zoanoid Team 5.

In comparison, G1 more recently in the Manga took out a whole squad of Vamores with the sonic busters (while just in his normal G1 form). While much earlier a similar scene with G0 was shown vaporizing a whole group of zoanoids that were charging towards him.

[*Jess♥]

why are we talking about vapourising zoanoids?

i have not seen a single zoanoid get vapourised. to b frank, that is a bit far fetched , how much power would that take? and it would shatter everything in radus! not just the zoanoids.

I have seen teh sonic busters used on zoanoids with hte result looking kind of like they are being popped.

it seems to me, they have an effect on certain materials in hte body, with some of them, it seems they shatter bones structures... like the times when he used the sonic buster and it seemed to just give the zoanoid a nasty nose bleed. i can imagine that is to do with the bones in the front of the face shattering, or perhaps the cartelidge which is in the nose area.

i think it would be a good point that guyver 3 was pretty badly injured, however, isn't it at that point that guyver 1 also uses his sonic buster to keep them at bay?

i do think range is a factor, since sound oughta dissipate over distance.

[*zeo]

Well, generally speaking when an object is reduced to individual atoms then it has been atomized, aka vaporized. . . Regardless of how the process is carried out, if nothing remains of the original mass then it is safe to say it has been vaporized barring energy conversion or other method of transference like how a atomic bomb translates mass into different forms of energy. The bubbling effect shown in the anime is consistent with a sonic based vaporization as organic matter would produce a bubbling effect (gasses for example) as the molecular structure of the mass is broken down and everything basically disintegrates apart before the same sonic pulses blasts the disassociated particles away until nothing is left.

The energy requirements are quite high, for the sonic busters to consistently vaporize a target in just a few seconds requires the equivalent kinetic energy of about something in the order of a ton of TNT to be outputed per second. This would consistent for example with the example of G0 obliterating a whole group of zoanoids that was rushing him and G1's example of taking out a squad of vamores on the side of the Chronos building.

As for energy dissipation it varies according to how the energy is propagated and whether that energy bleeds off as it is propagated. A soliton wave for example is essentially self contained and thus does not lose energy over distance and would be like the sonic pulse cannon attack shown in the anime by the two Sonic Hyper Zoanoids.

The sonic busters aren't like that however and emit sonic pulses in a radiating arc, so would lose energy over distance. But the OAV example with Self Defense mode G1 grappling with Darzerb before blasting him with the sonic busters shows the effect on a Hyper is limited compared to what would have happened to a normal Zoanoid at that same range.

Though both of the sonic zoanoids were also hypers, they were not the durable heavy armor type like Darzerb and Zektole. So for clarification I'm refering to the heavy armor type Hypers, since we are comparing them for guess estimating how durable the Guyver is. While many hypers are specialized, just like standard zoanoids, for specific weapons types. For comparison to the Guyver we have to group many of their attributes since the Guyver functions on multiple levels that only the Hypers appear capable of matching to a pretty good extent.

Darzerb for example withstood an enhanced vamore bio-laser blast from 2nd combo form Aptom, just after he had absorbed Elegon. Considering even a normal Vamore laser blast can vaporize up to 30 cm of concrete and have been shown taking out certain tanks that Aptom's enhanced lasers clearly show Darzerb is more than capable of taking his own heat and since the Guyver can also take the heat it gives us a starting point at least to consider how heat resistant the Guyver is.

Similar comparison can help flesh out other durability consideration for what the Guyver armor can withstand.

The Guyver enemies for example also gives us clues, like when Khan was controlling Chaos Aptom he suggested the possibility that the Bio-Armor may survive the vibrational spear weapon he was using but it would liquidate the Guyver's soft internal tissue. So even though we are not given many specifics we can draw all these examples together to give us a ballpark idea.

The anime series for example was the first to show that the Guyver armor has an adaptive reactive property similar to Zektoles, allowing it to more efficiently absorb impacts. Adding another piece to the puzzle. . . Sorry, lots to consider, writing too much again. . .

[*Jess♥]

Well, generally speaking when an object is reduced to individual atoms then it has been atomized, aka vaporized. . . Regardless of how the process is carried out, if nothing remains of the original mass then it is safe to say it has been vaporized barring energy conversion or other method of transference like how a atomic bomb translates mass into different forms of energy. The bubbling effect shown in the anime is consistent with a sonic based vaporization as organic matter would produce a bubbling effect (gasses for example) as the molecular structure of the mass is broken down and everything basically disintegrates apart before the same sonic pulses blasts the disassociated particles away until nothing is left.

zeo, this is insulting. we each know how small atoms are.

you cannot claim the zoanoids in the manga have been atomised or vapourised. at best you can say SOME of them were severely fragmented.

stop trying to stretch it.

[*zeo]

Sorry, I don't see how that was insulting? If everything breaks apart and disappears then what would you call it?

Fragmentation suggest there would be something left but there is nothing left shown. . . there would be for example blood everywhere if they were just fragmented. If you still disagree then please provide examples that would indicate fragmentation?

[*Jess♥]

you want examples? then look at your manga.

how can you prove that there is nothing left by saying there's nothing shown? absence of evidence is not proof.

you claim to love science, where is your scientific method? you would be laughed out of the lab.

looking at the sky, he proclaimed "i canot see my feet on hte floor, therefore i must be flying"

those drwings we are shown show particles that can't be smaller than the size of a grain of sand. any smaller and you can't show it on a page that is printed at such a size.

teh one showing the vamores for example shows particles. it doesn't show teh trajectory of thos particles. it doesn't show teh floor to show there is no debris.

it just shows teh vamores fragmenting and also shows blood splatter.

this is such a stupid argument. I feel so embarrassed to be arguing such a thing.

just keep it on topic and quit with any references to atomisation or vapourisation.

that's not a request, if you keep this off topic, you get a warning

[Guest IC Ominae]

I'm aware of that, in fact it was why I originally didn't believe the claimed effectiveness of the armor (mind you I even questioned the Future Weapons Review on it), but that was in the beginning and ignores the later improvements for the final class III armor. Unfortunately the whole situation was mired in politics and the later test results from the improved model were mostly ignored, which is shame since they obviously made remarkable improvements to the design. But politics often effects the selection of military equipment, which is why I think we definitely need to establish trustworthy 3rd party testers in these matters.

Apparently you didn't. Part of the trick inherent to its increase in effectiveness is that the scale plates lay at an angle. This is why Army test protocols which demand straight on relative to the plate render different results from the OEM. Multiple plates as has been recognized for a long time helps to localize damage to the ceramics increasing multi-hit endurance. The problems with the scale technology revolve around the realities of deployment. Maintenance of scales and designing a retention system able to meet the necessary requirements of real deployments are serious issues, that last I heard the OEM has not adequately resolved.

At present the current vest and its solid plate technology is still arguably the best solution that respects deployment realities. Until I hear something that about the retention system being upgraded so soldiers running around in full kit and otherwise will result in the plates not being moved out of place, I cannot agree with it being a good technology for actual deployment. Under less demanding conditions perhaps, but not actual deployment conditions.

So unless you have some very solid and thorough studies showing the retention system now meets spec, it's not just politics.

However I should also point out that Darzerb doesn't always directly fire the napalm onto his target, many times he just targets the ground in front of or around his target. So we don't know how sticky his version is but the Guyver has walked through this flame unharmed, which translates to prolonged exposure and thus proves the Guyver is extremely heat resistant. . .

Then run the heat transfer equations for convection and give an intensity, with your stated assumptions. Your claim, your paperwork. You yourself just asserted that it was indirect, so you cannot portray it in that fashion.

Actually save that for another thread, because that's not a conventional kill mechanism with present weapons. Hence not relevant to the main topic.

Also though primarily used against soft targets, napalm has been used against a variety of targets including tanks. Basically all materials, if heated to high enough temperatures will burn, including tank armor!

What are you referring to? Beyond airborne vehicles made of a magnesium alloy I am not familiar with any reports of armor itself burning. The temp figures I recall for the Firestorm phenomena were streets and other stuff that normally doesn't burn does exceeds 5000 degrees Celsius, so I doubt you allude to that.

Mind you normal napalm doesn't reach 3900°C and may only induce limited and probably indirect damage to a tank, dependent on how effective the tank's environment is controlled and how well everything is sealed, but Darzerb's 3900°C is closer to say what you would get from a Thermite bomb which can burn through most materials. Iron Oxide based Thermite, which is used for things like welding, burns at about 2500°C for example and can in bomb form turn a typical engine block to slag. So the more intense 3900°C should be able to damage even modern tank armor, at least with prolonged exposure since you need close to 5000°C for more instant results.

A Cool White compact fluourescent light bulb operates at 4000 degrees Kelvin or roughly the same ball park. If temperature was the only factor as you allude, these bulbs would have a very impressive and devastating effect when turned on. I suggest you come back when you can establish with heat transfer energy transfer rates instead of alluding to raw temperature figures.

The direction of the heat transfer you indicate is clear enough, sir. The relevant rates are more important, and blob of dense solid is not the same as a breeze.

Further what makes you think the tank crew would allow prolonged exposure? The extra materials have him heating up his body and ramming a early steel-oil-steel etc. engine armor layered Merkava as I recall. The implication being they were on patrol and had an accident. Derzerb is never implied to be able to survive a tank unloading a normal AP round into him.

That is a discussion for another thread if you insists on pursuing it.

The FN FAL, which was still in use during the 80's and early 90's, uses 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and is the weapon I've identified the soldier is holding in the scene shown during one of the X-Day event panels, the one that looks like Paris.

France was not a customer of FN, and by the late 70s already had the FAMAS in service. The SIG SG-540 preceeded it as an intermediate solution and could be mistaken for a FAL. It is chambered in 5.56, so you want to prove that's a FAL shooting 7.62 you have a lot to work to do seems as how the French never used them, and the gun they did use that looks like it is a 5.56 Swiss made rifle.

In comparison the Guyver's sonic busters for example can vaporize standard zoanoids at relatively close range but have limited effect on Hypers.

Resonance phenomena is not relevant to the failure modes conventional arms use, so I fail to see why you insist on mentioning it.

I would think this obvious, zoanoids are still primarily organic living beings. HE or more specifically HEIAP rounds, once a round has penetrated the outer armor layer can cause significant internal injuries as it explodes within the soft tissue areas. Since zoanoids can apparently take severe damage before dying it would be wise to use rounds that maximize damage. While incendiary rounds can prove effective with those zoaforms that use chemical based weapons.

No depiction has ever shown HE detonation inside as opposed to a intentional or de facto HESH effect. If you're simply stating that penetrating their hide isn't overly difficult and thus lost penetration for HE increasing effectiveness if it detonates inside target, feel free.

That however is more or less what was already stated, and pretending you never made a error and restating the other person's comments as if it was something new wastes my time and yours.

Show me one Flak jacket that will let someone survive a direct hit from an artillery shell? A Direct Hit!? Never mind bazooka, RPG's, and other similar weapons hyper zoanoids have been shown being hit

Show me one example of a direct hit with these weapons instead of near hits with fragmentation grenades and similar ordinance. As already stated Misznay-Schardin and Monroe effects require a direct hit or they're inferior to the straight up frag in terms of effect on target. If the Zoanoids slaughtered by the tanks were not killed by fragments they were by the significantly less lethal blast effects.

What's this heavily armored hyper you claim takes direct hits from artillery and what form is the artillery in? Mortar shells aren't howitzers and a 75mm piece isn't a 8" one.

Since you are referencing Murikami's Zoabuster gun, you should note that Darzerb was impervious to it as shown in the new anime series. The weapon was only really useful against the standard zoanoids. Also something with the power of a 20mm HESH would defeat any standard issue body armor, except maybe a level IV and even then only for a single hit.

Spall liners are in vehicles, and soldiers are not perpetually on foot. I'm sorry you had difficulties the statement was not made to trip you up.

It's called physics, the sonic hyperzoanoids fired soliton sonic shock waves, not resonance blasts!

A soliton mean a single pulse and we saw not only more then one pulse but extended pulsing at high frequency, as is speced to the equipment. So you seem to be off in some kind of AU. Especially given I've never seen reference to wave pulses going fast enough to be classified as shockwaves or seen a visual depiction of the bomb based form of it outside of real combat footage anywhere. Hollywood and others prefer low velocity explosives without frag in their depictions. It allows the excitement of explosives without the action hero being swiss cheesed or pulped.

Seems as how you have yet to justify your rock-paper-scissors supporting logic adequately it has nothing to do with the topic. In the interest of discouraging off topic discussion I'll leave it at that.

EDIT:

I checked all I could to try to give benefit of the doubt, but I cannot find any reference to the 20mm HESH rounds you claim being used in WW2 against tanks. 20mm rifles were relevant early in the war, but obsolescent rather quickly, and I can't see them not using them in the velocity envelope if they could. Actual HESH rounds have always been recoiless or tank launched affairs, that were significantly larger and are largely obsolescent against armored threats. As the Misznay-Schardin effect maximizes blast wave instead of the concentrated beam of the Monroe effect it serves exceptionally well against other targets.

Further while a M67 grenade is not HESH, and Composition B is not plastic enough for to make HESH rounds out of, it's none the less significantly bigger then the Zoanoid Buster's truncated 20mm round and a High-velocity Explosive. Seems as how you're the one advocating Dragon Skin, and don't debate Future Weapon's little stunt, I'll let you sort out that one on your own.

I should emphasize with present evidence calling the Zoanoid Buster rounds HESH is not technically proper terminology. I however am using it to emphasize the phenomena that should be in play under optimum conditions. Just as 12 gauge or 0.729" is more accurately about 18.51mm, but outside of the mini-grenades used by 12 gauge arms such as the AA-12 is not a standard caliber. Hence calling it 20mm due to being close to that ballpark. Ballpark figures are good for giving a sense of things, but I feel the need to clarify this as some have taken this terminology too literally while at the same time missing the point of statements made.

Edited May 17, 2009 by IC Ominae

[Astramentous]

You can't see sound - if it got to the point where the air was vibrating enough to see vibrations like that, without causing airflow in the surrounds(shock waves) then the laws of physics are already broken. The Guyver has been shown to blast just about anything with that sonic buster of his, but that could be brute force or resonance. If you produce consecutive resonance waves, you can cause destruction like that to individual molecule types in succession, destroying just about anything, mixed materials or no. If you use brute force, rather than bubbling up, it'd be more likely to cause immolation - molecular vibration = heat in that case. I'm inclined towards the resonance, mainly because that makes the computational and analytical capacities of the control medal more impressive.

Wasn't the original disscusion here about how much the guyver can take? It can take anything that doesn't destroy or damage the control medal. That includes 1.5 mega-smasher blasts hitting directly - which have been shown to cause atomization in just about anything they hit - stone, metal, zoanoid, zoalord - makes no difference at all. If the Control medal can survive that, the guyver can probably survive a nuclear explosion as well.

If we're talking about body armor strength, the guyver's body armor has to be strong enough to resist its own blows - if you assume the guyver's arm weighs around 20 kg, and that increases to 200kg for a heavy punch, and factor in that a normal human punch already hits with close to ten fold the weight of the arm - then you get that the force of such a punch is around 2000kg - or close to five tons. Compute the PSI of that for the front armor on the guyvers fist(which is among the thinnest and weakest on the guyver) and you get ~370 PSI. If the guyver can punch with that much force without damaging its hand, than its armor can stand up to any of the weaponry used in any war to date, excluding nuclear devices and large explosives. If you consider heat, a 3900 C flame thrower having so little effect the guyver didn't even show discomfort means it can stand considerably more heat than that.

Also, about filament bulbs - they do indeed get hot, but the source of that heat is extremely small. With a flame thrower, the heat is spread over a much larger area, but is measured at a selected point - usually in the center of the flame, at about half the effective damage range. Therefore a flame thrower with the same heat output as a filament bulb has hundreds of thousands of times the amount of energy being delivered to a target. If you want to argue with this, first go find out what a normal flame thrower outputs and its temperature - because I seem to recall they don't come anywhere near as high as 3900 C, and still somehow do a lot more damage than a 4000 kevlin bulb.

Edit: When I say PSI here, I'm referring to impact PSI, not static PSI. Completely different formulas and methodology there.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Astramentous

[Night]

Wasn't the original disscusion here about how much the guyver can take? It can take anything that doesn't destroy or damage the control medal. That includes 1.5 mega-smasher blasts hitting directly - which have been shown to cause atomization in just about anything they hit - stone, metal, zoanoid, zoalord - makes no difference at all. If the Control medal can survive that, the guyver can probably survive a nuclear explosion as well.

Exactly what Ive been thinking myself, I too have noticed that the control medal has gone undamaged in the reversal of the 1.5 megasmasher blast that hit it directly.

As for the Guyver itself, well human weaponry is uselsess against such a advanced bioweapon developed by a race far supiriour to our race.

The guyver getting slashed and stuff is by Hyper-Zoanoids developed by Cronos, the organization which took over the world with zoanoids and Hypers, humanity didnt stand a chance, and seeing as a guyver is able to punch through a Zoanoid with such ease that Guyver2-F remarked that it was like punching eggshells, and fighting was like in slow motion.

Also dont you think Cronos would have used its soldiers with their machine guns and such if they thought the Guyver was able to be harmed by bullets? Thats why Zoanoids and Hyper-Zoanoids are called upon to try and deal with such a opponent right?