Energy to Matter Conversion

[*Youngtusk]

I've been reading a lot about converting energy into matter. I know that certain reactions can convert matter into energy, like fire. But what about the other way around? I've read that it can be done in super colliders but on a very small scale and at the expense of a lot of energy. Does the Guyver have the capabilities to pull this off on a more practical level?

The Gigantic has plasma jets but as far as I understand that uses collected atmospheric gases in its reaction. Is there anyway a Gigantic could use this ability in total vacuum without charging up with matter first? If it could possibly be done, how?

I ain't looking for any canon-official stuff here, just the potential or technical aspect of it.

[Super Existence]

Well perhaps Gigantic Exceed is energy into matter to feed it's massive transformation.

[durendal]

I was under the impression that guyvers draw their energy by siphoning from the boost dimension. Perhaps the time/space continuom in the boost dimension is totally different from ours.

[*zeo]

Well that's pretty much a given considering it is another dimension from our own, even if it coexists with the rest of our universe...

I've been reading a lot about converting energy into matter. I know that certain reactions can convert matter into energy, like fire. But what about the other way around? I've read that it can be done in super colliders but on a very small scale and at the expense of a lot of energy. Does the Guyver have the capabilities to pull this off on a more practical level?

Basically, yes, the Guyver doesn't need to eat and can regenerate from just a few cells. The energy for all that has to come from somewhere and we know the Guyver uses the Gravity Control Orb to siphon energy from the Boost Dimension.

We however don't really have this technology yet, basically it's a lot easier to destroy than create. But we are developing the technology to someday do so. Star Trek style replicators are one vision of what that technology may eventually look like. In the meantime we are slowly learning how to assemble single atoms and from there we will learn how to make larger objects until we can re-create anything we want. It's just going to take a long while before we have the technology and power to do so.

The Gigantic has plasma jets but as far as I understand that uses collected atmospheric gases in its reaction. Is there anyway a Gigantic could use this ability in total vacuum without charging up with matter first? If it could possibly be done, how?

I ain't looking for any canon-official stuff here, just the potential or technical aspect of it.

A plasma propulsion system is basically a kind of Ion thruster which uses plasma in some or all parts of the thrust generation process. But just like a conventional rocket the fuel is internal, plasma rockets are just far more energy efficient and can provide variable thrust. Though generally less powerful than conventional rockets, at least with all present real life versions, they allow the same amount of fuel to last far longer. So with a plasma rocket it is possible to continuously accelerated to you destination, like Mars and use the thrust to generate artificial gravity with the constant acceleration.

Fusion Rockets are literally a Fusion version of a Plasma Rocket and of course provide an incredible amount of potential thrust, it is unknown whether the Gigantic's propulsion is the Fusion variety but it would explain the level of thrust it demonstrates.

[*Youngtusk]

Well my concern is in the GUyver's ability to convert the energy feed from the gravitational siphon into matter? Maybe with the gravity control orb or energy compresssors?

[*zeo]

Or the organism itself, it is called the "Bio-Booster Organism" after all, and managed to create a whole body from just the severed forearm of G1.

[durendal]

There was also the matter of Bio energy being used as a source of energy.

Well, to save us from the enormous headache from figuring out all the scientific details, lets just call it magic.

So anybody seen the Guyver Magic before?

Edited October 14, 2008 by durendal

[Moonraker One]

I mean, we can sort of assume, that since energy and matter are two sides of the same coin, that you can convert between the two. That's what a nuclear reactor does to fissile material (nuclear fuel). The formula for matter - energy conversion is:

E=MC^2

E equals M times C squared, where E = energy, M = matter, and C is the speed of light.

By the formula, the Guyver would have to use up a tremendous volume of energy to form a very small amount of matter. I'm glad the boost dimension is an entire dimension that theoretically could have unlimited energy, otherwise it would run out if the Guyver got all its energy from a finite source.

[*V Guyver]

The Concept of the Dimension seems to have a lot more in common with the String Theory then anything else in relation to Physics. Not that one should take String theory with full open arms, but fiction wise, it makes sense.

[*Youngtusk]

I see, the Guyver doesn't eat or drink, so when it regenerates it must get that matter from somewhere, and that somewhere is the conversion of energy from the boost dimension.

So...anyone have a theory of how it works...?

Edit: The more I think about it the more it makes sense. The Guyver must be able to convert energy into matter on some level. The host needs oxygen to survive, and although I'm sure the Guyver can obtain that air supply from the atmosphere or water(when submerged), what about when Sho and Agito entered the Relic ship for the first time? It was filled with an unkown liquid solution. It could have been water I suppose, but if it wasn't then there wouldn't be oxygen in it for the Guyvers to absorb. So how would the suit give them oxygen?

I also think it makes sense that the Guyver is capable of long-term survival in vacuum. Heck, if Aptom could survive in space long enough to launch his huge beam against Sho Gigantic, then I think its in the realm of plausibility that the GUyver can survive space.

So where do these molecules come from?

[*Jess♥]

it all depends on what kind of energy that is....

i mean energy takes on all sorts of different forms.

at it's basic level.. we just need to remember that matter is simply a form of energy.

the fields and forces caused by the way the energy is interacting is what makes mass 'solid'.

by manipulation of energy fields, I am sure that the guyver can simply create the necessary energy patterns to form atoms. and so on.

[Guest Wyrm]

Unfortunately, energy-to-matter conversion in this universe (and any universe where humans live) involves more than accumulating the requisite amount of energy for the mass. There are other considerations, such as the conservation of certain quantum numbers. The one that most concerns us is baryon number — the number of protons plus neutrons. Without this important conservation law, atoms would dissolve instantly. In order to create a 50 m high Exceed from a 2.7 m Gigantic, requires about 6350 times the Gigantic's normal mass of 393 kg, or 2495 metric tonnes. But this is normal matter. In order to conserve baryon number, you need an equal amount of antimatter (that is antibaryons of equal number to the baryons in the Exceed's body) to be created, which doubles the energy requirement.

Altenratively, since we're already siphoning energy out of nowhere, why not matter, too? The obvious source of the extra matter in the Guyver is the bio-boost space itself.

[*V Guyver]

considering Sho can fight and survived with several destroyed organs and arteries. It's possible the unit is supplying Sho with energy to Sho's vital systems directly instead of having to actually go through the normal process of the human body converting oxygen and food into energy. It's just easier with the organs, but the suit can probably mange without two functioning lungs. Oh, well that's one theory.

[*Jess♥]

the guyver is said to siphon energy from the boost dimension.

but not matter.

sure, we could assume that there may be some form of matter in the boost dimension...

but what we know is that it siphons energy.

we don't know what type of energy it is. it might be very similar to hte type of energy that makes up atoms.

who knows.

[Guest Wyrm]

the guyver is said to siphon energy from the boost dimension.

but not matter.

And the official documentation is never inaccurate, ever.

Wait a minute...

sure, we could assume that there may be some form of matter in the boost dimension...

but what we know is that it siphons energy.

And given that there is energy in the boost dimension, we can safely assume that there must be particles there, too. Because energy is always associated with particles in this universe. And, yes, the Guyververse. That there exist matter in the boost dimension needs hardly any justification at all.

We therefore have two competing models:

A) the model stating that the extra mass comes from the boost dimension.

B) the model stating that the extra mass comes from elsewhere.

Both models have several common assumptions (like being able to rearrange matter willy-nilly, which we see, so they're verified). However, model (A) has in addition only this unverified assumption:

1) we can siphon matter from the boost dimension as well as energy.

This is the only assumption needed to solve all our problems.

Model (B), on the other hand, makes the following unverified assumptions:

1) we cannot siphon matter from the boost dimension.

2a) we have a place to dump all the antimatter we generate from increasing the matter in bioforms,

2b) there is a way to generate matter without generating an equal amount of antimatter, OR,

2c) there exists a matter reservoir that is not the boost dimension to draw matter from.

(That is, choose at least one of (2a), (2b) or (2c) to add to assumption (1).)

Any way you count it, that's two unverified assumptions. Occam's razor says to put your money in model (A).

we don't know what type of energy it is. it might be very similar to the type of energy that makes up atoms.

Um... mass energy?

See, here's the dirty little secret about energy they don't tell you until you get to college level: Energy is just a number... a number that, whenever you calculate it, always has the same value. Energy has a diverse variety of forms: heat, kinetic (heat is a form of this, by the way), potential (chemical, electromagnetic, gravitational), and mass energies. However, given the appropriate mechanism, you can convert between them, but the sum of the numbers you get for those energies will remain constant, even if the individual values do not change. (Under the caveat that none has escaped the system, but if you account for that, the energy calculation balances again.)

Assuming energy is constant in a system allows you to detect when there is a new form of energy to take into account. That's one of the ways new forms of energy are detected. Furthermore, Noether's theorem tells us that, if we assume the laws of physics do not change depending on when you start an experiment, then energy is conserved.

The energies that make up atoms are the mass energies of the constituent particles, and the binding energies of those particles in an atom.

[*Youngtusk]

That makes sense to me; theres no reason why matter can't be drawn through the siphon. Sure it may jsut be speculation, but its an educated guess and thats good enough for me.

[durendal]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Guyver unit can regenerate very very quick? And that the matter we are talking about comes from the regeneration of the Guyver unit? Could it be possible that the time needed to generate additional mass is equivalent to the energy that is siphoned from the boost dimension? So in effect, the mass of the Exceed comes from the amplification of the Guyver units regenerating ability?

[*Jess♥]

And the official documentation is never inaccurate, ever.

Wait a minute...

wyrm, I am sorry your post is quite complicated and I'm tired, I'll read it when i am more fresh, but i must say this.

the manga is canon. you can't really make a judgement on how accurate it is.. or how accurate you think it is. what it says is what we have to work with. so we can say for sure that the guyver siphons energy, but we can't say anything else for sure. anything else is pie in the sky.

[*YoungGuyver]

Noether's theorem tells us that, if we assume the laws of physics do not change depending on when you start an experiment, then energy is conserved

Unfortunately, alternate dimensions usually do have alternate laws of physics. Just changing the temperature of our universe changes the laws of physics, or at least the dimensional fabric (string theory). So a lot of what you said can become a mute point.

and its really nice that you are learning -one- way of generating matter, but there can be others. Consider that matter and mass are related. If you generate mass, do you generate antimatter? No, not unless you are generating matter in the conventional way. What if you can generate mass in the same way that you 'increase' mass, thereby avoiding the antimatter problem?

Sorry, I'm just looking at this from an engineering perspective.

[*Jess♥]

ok I'm a little more alert now.. and to be honest I am still finding it difficult to follow...

anyway.. I get the impression from a couple of things.. that a coulpe of people think that the guyver is pulling this energy through a little door...

but I think that's a little unrealistic. I mean, if we think about it on that terms.. you can pass anything through hte door..

but i think that it may be more like a filter?

you know when you make coffee, you put the coffee in hte filter and teh water goes through it.

nothing else goes through, just the water.

I think it has to be a controlled process.. because if you don't have the filter, you will have all sorts of spillage coming through.

also, since we are told that the guyver siphons energy through.. it does not say anything about matter.. so we must assume that it does not draw matter through. if it did draw matter through, it would say so. it's not even necessary to make a big deal about it... it would say that guyver siphons energy and matter. but it doesn't say that.. so we should just forget it. when i said we could assume that there may be matter there.. I was just sayoing that for arguments sake but i don't believe it has any bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

anyhow.. guyver can make all sorts of elements. so it has the power of fusion or fission at the very least.

we don't know the lemental makeup of the guyver organism.. but this organism can freely replicate itself without the need to feed.

we saw one arm turn into an entire body in what seemed like a short period of time. the idea of calling it chi is a good one.. it is also bio energy... but we can also attribute this to hte filtering mechanism i mentioned.

ok, I just read a little about perfect conversion..

I liked the part that mentioned monopoles.. this is a kind of particle that will cause protons to fall apart. if you can create a monopole using massive amounts of energy, then you can surely do the other wayaround? it doesn't seem to be such a difficult thing to simply manipulate the massive amount of energy so that it creates protons and electrons. fusion does the rest.

I mean... we don't know how much energy exactly that can be siphoned from hte boost dimension... but with a huge concentration of energy you can create matter. thats what happened at the big bang.

[Guest Wyrm]

wyrm, I am sorry your post is quite complicated and I'm tired, I'll read it when i am more fresh, but i must say this.

the manga is canon.

Sorry to be brusque, but totally irrelevant. The manga never mentioned the bio-boost space or its properties, period. The VDF is what mentions the bio-boost dimension, but the VDF is not the manga. (And it's not like the VDF says that the boost dimension can't serve as a source of matter, either.)

-----

Unfortunately, alternate dimensions usually do have alternate laws of physics.

Except that in the section you were responding to, I was taking about the Guyververse, which has rather severe restrictions on how different the physics might be, due to the fact that there are people living in it.

Just changing the temperature of our universe changes the laws of physics, or at least the dimensional fabric (string theory). So a lot of what you said can become a mute point.

Sorry, sport, but that's pop-sci rubbish. That's like saying the laws of physics are different for ice and for water, on account of temperature. They aren't, it's just that at certain temperatures, H₂O undergoes a phase transition, where the same laws of physics apply differently. The same thing happened to the universe from the GUT era to the present — three times it went through a phase transition that didn't change the physics but how the physics applied to its particles (including its force-carrying bosons). However, the laws of physics are the same as they've always been: describable by an SU(5) Yang-Mills theory. The theory merely behaves like a separate SU(3) color interaction, an SU(2) weak interaction, and a U(1) electromagnetic interaction at lower energies.

String theory seeks to explain, in terms of high-dimensional vibrating superstrings, why we see the SU(5) Yang-Mills interaction at low energies. The phase transitions and the resulting physics will be the same, because that string theory will still look like the four basic forces at low energies.

and its really nice that you are learning -one- way of generating matter, but there can be others. Consider that matter and mass are related. If you generate mass, do you generate antimatter? No, not unless you are generating matter in the conventional way. What if you can generate mass in the same way that you 'increase' mass, thereby avoiding the antimatter problem?

Are you suggesting proposing speculations out the yin-yang without supporting evidence? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the Guyver Science Lab, is it not? We're supposed to be using the methods of science to decide how the Guyververse works, right?

If it's not, then I'll get out of here and let you do your thing. If it is, then I will try my hardest to put your speculations to the test, including subjecting them to Occam's razor. Because that's what scientists do: they're paid to shoot down each other's ideas.

I'll respond to Ryuki's most recent message in a few moments.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Wyrm

[Guest Wyrm]

anyway.. I get the impression from a couple of things.. that a coulpe of people think that the guyver is pulling this energy through a little door...

but I think that's a little unrealistic. I mean, if we think about it on that terms.. you can pass anything through the door..

but i think that it may be more like a filter?

you know when you make coffee, you put the coffee in the filter and the water goes through it.

nothing else goes through, just the water.

I don't think that analogy works. Water is still matter, just really, really fine grained. A filter will still let solid particulate through, if those particles are smaller than the filter can strain.

Besides, reasoning by analogy is a fallacy. Hate to break it to ya.

EDIT: Reasoning by analogy is useful only as an explanatory tool. The primary argument should always avoid it.

So I must ask you the hard question: why do you think matter cannot be extracted from the bio-boost space?

also, since we are told that the guyver siphons energy through.. it does not say anything about matter.. so we must assume that it does not draw matter through. if it did draw matter through, it would say so. it's not even necessary to make a big deal about it... it would say that guyver siphons energy and matter. but it doesn't say that.. so we should just forget it.

To take omission of a statement as proof of its negative is sophistry. Consider the following statements:

A: "I left the window open last night to let air in."

B: "I got bit by a mosquito last night."

Does statement A mean that, because I omitted the fact that opening a window would let bugs in mean that opening the window did not let the bugs in, and that the mosquito spontaneously generated itself out of the brackish water in the toilet? Of course not! Omitting the statement of that fact does not make it false.

There's a more subtle error in the fallacy: not only did I not say that opening the window would let bugs in, but I also did not say that opening the window would not let bugs in. That would force me into a contradiction, to say nothing of the literally infinite things I could've said but didn't and their negatives, each of which would be its own contradiction, so the principle is clearly wrong.

Similarly, the VDF says the Guyver siphons energy, but it doesn't say that it syphons matter. To conclude from this that the Guyver doesn't siphon matter from the bio-boost space is sophistry. The point may simply be unimportant at that point in the book, or at the time it was written, so it was omitted. Or the capability might be unknown at the time of the book. But to say, "the book doesn't state it, therefore it's wrong," is a fallacy.

anyhow.. guyver can make all sorts of elements. so it has the power of fusion or fission at the very least.

we don't know the lemental makeup of the guyver organism.. but this organism can freely replicate itself without the need to feed.

we saw one arm turn into an entire body in what seemed like a short period of time. the idea of calling it chi is a good one.. it is also bio energy... but we can also attribute this to the filtering mechanism i mentioned.

The Chi has to be some kind of flux into organisms with an external source, otherwise you run right into the first law of thermodynamics. Conservation of energy is hella important, so waving it off if we can avoid it is a no-no.

ok, I just read a little about perfect conversion..

I liked the part that mentioned monopoles.. this is a kind of particle that will cause protons to fall apart.

Peer reviewed source, please, because I've heard about detection of magnetic monopoles being used as an alternative to proving GUT theories in lieu of proton decay, but I have never heard that monopoles themselves cause proton decay.

I mean... we don't know how much energy exactly that can be siphoned from the boost dimension... but with a huge concentration of energy you can create matter. thats what happened at the big bang.

Minor detail, but that's with a HUGE overabundance of gammas. For each excess baryon, there was obscenely large number photons (I think it was 10²¹) of about ~1000 MeV each. That would cause some serious sunburn.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Wyrm

[*Jess♥]

I don't think that analogy works. Water is still matter, just really, really fine grained. A filter will still let solid particulate through, if those particles are smaller than the filter can strain.

Besides, reasoning by analogy is a fallacy. Hate to break it to ya.

EDIT: Reasoning by analogy is useful only as an explanatory tool. The primary argument should always avoid it.

So I must ask you the hard question: why do you think matter cannot be extracted from the bio-boost space?

To take omission of a statement as proof of its negative is sophistry. Consider the following statements:

A: "I left the window open last night to let air in."

B: "I got bit by a mosquito last night."

Does statement A mean that, because I omitted the fact that opening a window would let bugs in mean that opening the window did not let the bugs in, and that the mosquito spontaneously generated itself out of the brackish water in the toilet? Of course not! Omitting the statement of that fact does not make it false.

There's a more subtle error in the fallacy: not only did I not say that opening the window would let bugs in, but I also did not say that opening the window would not let bugs in. That would force me into a contradiction, to say nothing of the literally infinite things I could've said but didn't and their negatives, each of which would be its own contradiction, so the principle is clearly wrong.

Similarly, the VDF says the Guyver siphons energy, but it doesn't say that it syphons matter. To conclude from this that the Guyver doesn't siphon matter from the bio-boost space is sophistry. The point may simply be unimportant at that point in the book, or at the time it was written, so it was omitted. Or the capability might be unknown at the time of the book. But to say, "the book doesn't state it, therefore it's wrong," is a fallacy.

in my view there's a lot of misdirection here, wether intended or not. the crux of teh matter is teh literature does not state that mater is siphoned through so you cannot say it for sure. it is baseless and thus doesn't hold any ground at all. that is my sole argument.

the analogy is a way of explaining what is in my mind, that doesn't make it a fallacy. it just means i don't know all the fancy words you do so I have to find some other way of explaining it. what i am suggesting is that teh way it is siphoned could simply be like a net that only allows energy through. perhaps energy is allowed through in the same way that xrays pass through matter. perhaps teh matter in this universe prevents matter from coming through in the same way as a brick wall doesn't allow you to walk through it. does that explain it enoguh for you? it's just an idea. it's not really that importand because we can't make any asumptions about it. all we can say for sure is that energy comes through.

I never once said that it is not possible that matter came through.. I said it is not something you can say for sure since it is not said.

if you want to use that as a basis for a theory of any kind, then I believe we can start saying that guyver gains help from angels. because the manga never says he doesn't get help from angels.

let's keep this within the realms of what is written and work from there please.

that is why we are working from an energy point of view. because that is what we know. we know tha tguyver siphons energy. we know that it can do incredible things with degenerating matter and reconstructing a human body perfectly, cotrolling energy fields. we are told tha tthe guyver reconstructs the body. it makes most sense to base our ideas on the guyvers abilities and only bring in wild theories that are baseless when we have exhausted the options that are more sensible.

Peer reviewed source, please, because I've heard about detection of magnetic monopoles being used as an alternative to proving GUT theories in lieu of proton decay, but I have never heard that monopoles themselves cause proton decay.

sorry, I was reading wikipedia.

it's not ultra important since it was only a suggestion of the possibilities that have been brought up in some physics.

Minor detail, but that's with a HUGE overabundance of gammas. For each excess baryon, there was obscenely large number photons (I think it was 10²¹) of about ~1000 MeV each. That would cause some serious sunburn.

the megasmasher would cause sunburn too

but anyway that's irelevant in my view. if the guyver can manipulate that energy, then it won't get any sunburn because it is manipulating the energy. logic really..

[*YoungGuyver]

Man, in two debates at once. I'm already bored with the other debate I'm having with Zeo, but I'll get back to that one in a bit. Anyway:

Except that in the section you were responding to, I was taking about the Guyververse, which has rather severe restrictions on how different the physics might be, due to the fact that there are people living in it.

But the guyververse is applying trans dimensional technology to it. The tech specs make reference to the 'boost' dimension in order to explain how it works.

Sorry, sport, but that's pop-sci rubbish. That's like saying the laws of physics are different for ice and for water, on account of temperature. They aren't, it's just that at certain temperatures, H₂O undergoes a phase transition, where the same laws of physics apply differently. The same thing happened to the universe from the GUT era to the present — three times it went through a phase transition that didn't change the physics but how the physics applied to its particles (including its force-carrying bosons). However, the laws of physics are the same as they've always been: describable by an SU(5) Yang-Mills theory. The theory merely behaves like a separate SU(3) color interaction, an SU(2) weak interaction, and a U(1) electromagnetic interaction at lower energies.

String/M theory also states that the calabi-yau manifolds can change in different conditions, which will affect the way in which the sub dimensions are curled up in on themselves, which will change the masses of particles. I don't know about you, but having the forces of gravity, magnetism, and both nuclear forces as all one force kind of sounds like a different set of physics to me. Now we may be able to calculate how the physics in that state of a universe work, but gravity is a force of the universe on its own, according to the physics of our modern universe. And that's not even throwing in the violation of the law of conservation of energy of the big bang.

Are you suggesting proposing speculations out the yin-yang without supporting evidence? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the Guyver Science Lab, is it not? We're supposed to be using the methods of science to decide how the Guyververse works, right?

Guyver is science fiction. Which means that we are seeing things based on science that might not exist yet. When Jules Verne wrote 'From the Earth to the Moon', and 'Around the Moon', did science fully support it? Did we have actual rockets at that time? It took until the 1960's to actually fire cannons as powerful as suggested. Science fiction doesn't just deal with science in the present, but also what science may develop into. So yes, based on science, but also allowing for a theory to develop further into something new.

So when I pointed out that mass can be generated without the generation of anti-matter or many of the other hindrances, it should count as a valid point.

You did remind us that technically energy is merely a number value that is transferred from medium to medium. Many of the Guyver's abilities have been gravity themed-energy being siphoned from an alternate dimension through a gravity controller. Momentum amplifiers that are powered by energy from the gravity controller. Energy compressors that form pressure canon 'black holes'. The gravity controller making a connection to the boost dimension to store and retrieve the armor with blast field results. I was originally thinking that the gravity controller disperses the energy from the boost dimension as a spherical gravity like field, along with bio-energy to make this work. Instead of any direct gravitational like particles coming across, perhaps the gravity controller simply bends space (think space time matrix depression) into something not quite a worm hole. Allowing the -transfer- of energy to certain particles that could be receptive, such as something weird about bioenergy. Basically like an inductor. A really weird inductor, that uses alternate dimensions, gravity controllers, and bioenergy as a part of its mythos, but an inductor none the less. (I really hate the bio energy part, but its a part of the franchise and mythos. It really muddles things up)

[Guest Wyrm]

in my view there's a lot of misdirection here, wether intended or not. the crux of the matter is the literature does not state that mater is siphoned through so you cannot say it for sure. it is baseless and thus doesn't hold any ground at all. that is my sole argument.

The possibility of getting matter from boost space is neither established with certainty nor denied with certainty, or even close to either extreme. The theory is live, whether you like it or not.

the analogy is a way of explaining what is in my mind, that doesn't make it a fallacy. it just means i don't know all the fancy words you do so I have to find some other way of explaining it. what i am suggesting is that the way it is siphoned could simply be like a net that only allows energy through. perhaps energy is allowed through in the same way that xrays pass through matter.

The word you're looking for is "selective". The gravity orb is selective about what it gets from boost space. Quite frankly, I think this says more about the gravity orb and its function than boost space. That the guyver organism doesn't have one means that its purpose is necessitated by the things that the Guyver has but the guyver organism does not: the bio-weaponry.

The gravity orb seems to be a boost space engine that extracts usable work from boost space and makes it availible to the Guyver, with the primary function as the source of the energy used by the Guyver's energy weapons. It also has the secondary function as the locus for gravity effects.

X-rays don't pass through materials with high atomic number very well, by the way. That's why lead is used as X-ray shielding.

perhaps the matter in this universe prevents matter from coming through in the same way as a brick wall doesn't allow you to walk through it.

This selectivity on the part of matter in "this universe" is based on... what exactly?

I say this because matter seems to be created willy-nilly in the Guyververse, violating very well-known, well-tested, and extremely vital conservation laws, at energy densities that are routine in high-energy physics, and so if there were anything to this as a part of normal physics, they should've been seen already. You're contemplating handwaving away seriously important physical laws when the cleanest solution should be obvious: all that matter is leaking in from outside the universe. This solution neatly sidesteps those conservation laws, and there's already a likely candidate for the source... 'likely' only because we know it exists.

And you base this selectivity of universal matter on... apparently, nothing but a single statement (albeit reproduced twice in slightly different wording) in supplementary material to a manga... in one inset box... in regards to one speciallized organ in the Guyver. Don't you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You're trying to squeeze too much blood from this stone, Ryuki. A single statement can only tell you so much.

does that explain it enoguh for you? it's just an idea.

In science, ideas are to be tested as ruthlessly as possible. You must realize that nearly all scientific ideas are eventually disposed of. The scientific ideas you see in textbooks are only the ideas that survived the most punishing tests during multiple passes through the peer review literature — the peers being amongst the top specialists in the area the idea lives. Those ideas are the best of the best.

So, please do not be shocked, disappointed or discouraged when most of your ideas end up in the rubbish bin.

I never once said that it is not possible that matter came through.. I said it is not something you can say for sure since it is not said.

It seemed that way to me, the way you were harping on the VDF statement that the gravity orb only extracts energy from the boost space to counter my siphoning matter argument. Maybe you were taking exception to my characterization of the boost space as the "obvious" source. However, I meant "obvious" only in its dictionary sense:

Obvious:

1. Easily perceived or understood; quite apparent. See Synonyms at apparent.

2. Easily seen through because of a lack of subtlety; transparent: an obvious political ploy.

3.

Archaic

Standing in the way or in front.

I fail to see how any of these definitions implied I thought the bio-boost space to be the sure source of the extra matter. This is why your argument against the point puzzled me.

if you want to use that as a basis for a theory of any kind, then I believe we can start saying that guyver gains help from angels. because the manga never says he doesn't get help from angels.

Let's not be ridiculous.

Also, help from angels is a far more complicated answer than it appears to be; Occam's razor slices them off from consideration, too. :wink:

but anyway that's irelevant in my view. if the guyver can manipulate that energy, then it won't get any sunburn because it is manipulating the energy. logic really..

Well... I wasn't talking about the GUYVER getting sunburn.

Just for curiosity, I ran the figures. 2960 t of nucleons is about 1.76968e33 nucleons, which requires ~1.8e54 gammas, with a total energy of 2.83533e44 J. (Just to put that in perspective, this is about 1.23 trillion times the gravitational binding energy of the Earth. Ouch!) To protect Tokyo from a lethal dose of gamma radiation, it has to catch enough gammas so that everyone in a 25 m radius of the Exceed receives maybe only light radiation poisoning. That's an exposure of 1 Sv. The Q factor for gammas is 1, which makes things easy: 1 Gy for an average human at 25 m, with an average cross section of 0.445 m² and mass of 68 kg, means that only 300 kJ got loose, so the effectiveness of Guyver catching gammas is about one part in 9 x 10³⁸. (If you produce 2960 t of nuclei this way.)

Edited October 18, 2008 by Wyrm