Jukai's & Zeo's debate

[Jukai]

Okay, just checked back on an older Manga issue... the advent left 20 MILLION YEARS AGO! I was under the assumption they left only a million years ago. I don't care if they increase their technology at snail speed, they must be ludicrously advanced by now. Alcanphel is banking on numbers and his hopes he can bond with a Guyver unit... else they stand no chance in an all out attack.

It also makes me more certain that apollyon is not directly involved with the Advent. Twenty MILLION years and they give a damn now? Looking iffy.

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[Salkafar]

You're saying it took a thousand years to create humans,

Try 500 million years.

One of the animals that is shown fairly consistently in the flashbacks is Anomalocaris. A good choice, since it is the oldest top predator known, and is even pretty scary by our standards: a proto-arthropod (?), between two and seven feet long, with curved, segmented and barbed jaws, the size of human hands.

However, Anomalocaris is known only from the Burgess Shell fossil batch and that is over 500 million years old. In other words, it took the Uranus at least half a billion years to develop humanity.

Personally, I believe they did it in several main phases, each one ending in a mass extinction...

1 - (end of the Cambrian) After the trilobites, protoarthropods and early chordates proved a disappointment, most of them were destroyed so the strongest could develop in the open spaces.

2 - (end of the Ordovician) The former was deemed a failure, and the remnants were purged again. Interest shifted towards vertebrates.

3 - (end of the Devonian) Fish were deemed to develop too slowly. Most of them were made extinct to give the bony fish more space.

4 - (End of Permian) In order to favor a specific group of reptiles, considered to be extremely promising, nine tenths of all species of animal were purged.

5 - (End of Cretaceous) The dinosaurs, once the crown jewels of the project, were finally rejected for being too large and genetically stable. Final stage of project starts with their extinction.

Also... 20 million years ago the Uranus left? Um, no, that is impossible.

When they left, what they left behind were either modern-day humans, Homo Sapiens, or our immediate ancestors, Homo Erectus. In any case, this cannot have been more than one million years ago.

Twenty million years ago, there weren't even hominids yet. Also, twenty million years ago the modern series of ice ages had not yet started - that began about 2 million years ago.

200,000 years would be infinitely more probable. That is around the time the first modern humans appeared.

In any case... I don't think the Uranus would have very much more advanced technology. It is clear from their incredibly slow advancement in the development of humanity that they think very slowly, compared to us. They probably live very, very long lives.

By comparison, we may very well be like bacteria. We live very brief lives, but we breed insanely fast and we think very fast as well. Hello: from heavier-than-air flight to space travel in fifty years! Also, we are barely sentient by their standards, but we are still incredibly dangerous! Just like a strain of bacteria. We are bio-weapons, after all. We are the cosmic equivalent of anthrax!

All this makes the existence of the Guyver very puzzling. How could they make such an incredibly stupid mistake after all that work??? 500,000,000 years in the making and they all screw it up in a single hour. What a bunch of cosmic idiots.

Maybe, if Archanfel ever manages to build his fleet and find his masters, he might find that they were destroyed by their enemies... or that we are superior to them by now. Heck, if you have a 30-mile ship full of battle-ready super-humans (which is what Zoanoids are, after all) who have nothing to do for the years it takes to travel through space, they might well come up with some surprising new technologies.

Why not create Zoanoids that are physically feeble, but incredibly intelligent and inventive, while still being subservient to Zoalords?

Has anyone ever read Larry Niven's "Protector"? That's sort of what I am talking about. (Well, a protector is not physically feeble...)

One more thing.... People keep calling the planet the Uranus tossed at Earth a "meteor". Maybe it was a meteor in the strict sense, but I must reiterate that it was the size of a planet. I also read "Moon-sized" over and over again, but it is clearly half the diameter of Earth itself... the size of Mars, and significantly larger than even Ganymede, the largest moon of the solar system. They really wanted to be sure we would be dead.

[Jukai]

First off to Salkafar, Volume 11, Page 48.. exact quote we're talking here. The advents left earth 20 million years ago. Now, since in THE REAL WORLD ancestrial humans have walked around the earth for a good 200,000 years (unless we're talking about Neanderthals, which could send us back up to two million years, but I'd say Neanderthals would more logically have been the prototypes for human beings created by the Advent), I'd say that this is a little bit of a poetic stretch for Takaya. Even still, if this is how it's written, then there is no doubt that the Advent are WAY more advanced than Chronos could ever dream of being.

Let's say though, that this was just Agito using hyperbole to increase the drama in the situation. I'm still going to say that the advent are FAR superior to Chronos. To even build a warship, Chronos had to copy technology from the Relic that was GOD KNOWS how old. Sure, they're producing Zoanoids far more powerful than the Uranos did, but don't forget... THE URANOS MADE ALCANPHEL! They have the technology to make dozens of God-like creatures. I really feel that Alcanphel is banking on getting a Guyver unit before he begins his journey. There seems to be a consensus on this forum that thinks that if Chronos left now, with their army of a billion Zoanoids and the twelve supreme Zoalords, they'd battle the Advent to a standstill. I'd say they'd get annahilated in five minutes, TOPS... If earth was really such a threat, the Advent woulda made damn sure it was destroyed. They barely gave it a thought.

Also, while that was a brilliant breakdown Salkafar, I'm not sure real world time lines apply here. This is a world where human beings are turned into winged bats that shoot sonic beams at super powered humans wearing parasitic bio-suits of armor. Carbon dating in that world could have been vastly off target. You brought up a DAMN good point though... why not genetically alter ones brain to make them super smart? Moreso, do we know that Chronos hasn't?

As for Ghidorah, bro, I just think you're way off target here. With a thought, the Uranos put Alcanphel in a near coma state. Then, they teleported a MARS (thanks Salkafar) sized rock at earth to shatter it in a bajillion pieces. Alcanphel used up all his energy to destroy the rock and was then put in a REAL coma state. If the Advent knew that Alcanphel had destroyed the meteor, they would have also known it would have taken ALL his life force to do so (because, you know, they made him) and sent another one to really finish the job. Why spend half a million years creating a creature strong enough to take down Alcanphel when they have the mental control to crush him with their imposing will? Do you think it took half a million years to make Alcanphel? (although, if it did, then you guys maybe onto something).

I just look at the Uranos as a group of sloppy scientists. They made a product that was potentially harmful, and, pissed off (and maybe facing some litigation cause some of their partners died?) they decided to just ditch the crap and tossed it (moreso tossed something at it) without looking to see if they really got rid of it or not. Humanity was too unevolved to be any threat to the advent, they had no way of getting off the planet at the time! The Advent were probably more pissed that they had to scrap their experiment, they weren't worried about the future at all. This looks like it might come back to bite them in the ass.

If Apollyon really is from the Advent, it's cause they randomly looked towards earth's way and saw the Ark and said "Ohhhhh... fudge... uhm... guys...? Better come take a look at this..." This certainly wasn't in planning for sometime.

Also, as for the constant translation of Apollyon's name, this seems like a good generic name for an enemy of Alcanphel (who is God). It simply means someone who will lead an attack against God, so it could easily be another Alcanphel level Zoalord or a new strong member of Zeus' Thunderbolts, or a creation of Guyot's. As long as he's against Alcanphel.

I think I've debated enough. I'll let my thoughts drift until after the translation.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Jukai

[*zeo]

Just a few clarification, the Creators were on Earth for Billions of years!

They came here back in the primordial ooze period, which means around 4 billion years ago and spent billions of years before they got to humans!!!

Every mass extinction was explained in the Manga as the Creators deciding they weren't getting anywhere and reseting the evolutionary ladder.

The last 20,000 years is a drop in the bucket in the time line they spent on Earth, just to keep things in perspective.

If the same Creators were part of the experiment since the beginning then that means they are extremely long lived and long lived beings do not progress rapidly.

The Asteroid the Creators tried to smash the Earth with was really about Mercury size, not Mars size. Though that's still pretty massive and would pulverized the planet, making sure no life of any kind would have survived.

The Mars estimate came from a straight comparison of the Asteroid with the Earth but that doesn't take into account depth of field that two spherical shaped objects would have, since the Asteroid wasn't being shown smashing into the planet straight on but rather at an angle almost above the Earth in our point of view.

Taking that into account reduce the calculable size of the Asteroid to something the size of Mercury.

As for making super smart people, it took the Creators Eons to create humans as is. Creating something smarter would not be easy for even the Creators.

Archanfel can be seen as the epoc of human development to the limits of Creator technology.

Though this also shows Chronos has a long way before they can even match the Creator's level of technology, since none of the 12 Zoalords can match Archanfel.

That said, there are many possible explainations for Apollyon...

1) Could be a rogue faction of the Creators, who don't want to alert the other Creators to what they are doing and so sent a single agent to Earth.

2) Could be Agito, transformed by absorbing the full knowledge of the Creators contained in the Navigation Spheres. Possibly granting him Creator mental powers. The name would fit his personality.

3) It could be Imakarum, if Imakarum has developed a split personality. Possible considering his original personality is so different from his present one. The old Murikami personality could be coming out as Apollyon whenever Imakarum goes to sleep or something to that effect.

4) It could be another rogue Zoalord, unlikely to be Guyot but could be one of the remaining Zoalords.

5) It could be a new Zoalord, though unlikely as they would need a true Zoa-Crystal to make one anywhere near powerful enough to take on one of the 12.

6) It could be an agent of the enemy of the Creators, here to both examine the Creator technology and destroy what would be seen as a secret weapons cache.

7) It could be a Creator, left behind during the exodus. Possibly from one of the damaged Relics and presumed dead.

8) It could be something Created by either ZT or Barcus, though doubtful since it is basically calling itself the destroyer.

Then there's the really out there possibilities but that should give the general run down.

[Jukai]

A few misconceptions you're having zeo:

a) You're assuming that the timeline in real life correlates to the timeline in Guyver. I've already said that I've had my doubts about this. It might have taken the Creaters 100 million years to finish their experiments. This is a comic where ten foot rhino/human creatures breath fire while their beatle/human bosses back them up by firing photonic beams of energy. I'm not throwing in modern day carbon dating

b) the longer a persons lifespan does NOT correlate to how fast a person progressives on the scale of technology. If this was the case, fruit flies would be flying around in warships with giant laser beams conquering human kind. Yes, this DOES mean that lesser intellectual periods would last longer (baby, toddler, kid, teen, etc.) but that still gives the Uranos thousands/millions of years to advance their technology.

c) your mercury/mars comparison sounds totally pulled out of your ass

Also there is a poll for all those possibilities on the forum already.

[*zeo]

A few misconceptions you're having zeo:

a) You're assuming that the timeline in real life correlates to the timeline in Guyver. I've already said that I've had my doubts about this. It might have taken the Creaters 100 million years to finish their experiments. This is a comic where ten foot rhino/human creatures breath fire while their beatle/human bosses back them up by firing photonic beams of energy. I'm not throwing in modern day carbon dating

Nope, it's pretty much officially understood the Creators were on Earth for Billions of years.

Aside from the whole primordial ooze reference and that the planet's unique chemical properties are what attracted the Creators to Earth we have the reference to every evolutionary era being stated as influenced by the Creators.

Remember they kept using the term "Eons" to describe how long they have been here and the story is meant to blend in with our world for at least a moderate suspension of belief. Takaya didn't totally ignore the actual time line, even though he did take liberties with the details.

If you research the many references made in the Manga many things do correlate quite well with the real world. Especially the city battles, Ryuki did a comparison of Manga scenes and real life city images and found they matched up really well for example.

Many of the names are historical references, the geography at least is dead on, etc. So Takaya did do his homework.

Besides the Creators relied on evolution to develop life on this planet into forms they wanted and evolution is not an instantaneous process.

Even using asteroids to create a mass extinction to reset the evolutionary cycle would take millions of years for life to recover and get to an advance stage again as both life and the environment recovered.

Never mind things like ice ages, not to be confused with glacial periods, alone can last millions of years.

Besides, even if Archanfel literally slept for 10's of thousand of years doesn't mean he hadn't woken up many times between the time of the Creators and when Barcus found him.

After all someone built that temple for him on Silha island around the damaged Relic he slept in and 10's of thousand of years ago predates all historically known cultures that could have had the technology to create that temple. Meaning humans in the Manga have a much longer historical background.

Incidentally Takaya can get away with this since we have yet to discover a missing link and there are evidence indicating our race may be older than previously thought. Again, this means he has room to stretch things.

Besides which it never really said in the Manga that the Creators created modern humans exactly as we are now.

b) the longer a persons lifespan does NOT correlate to how fast a person progressives on the scale of technology. If this was the case, fruit flies would be flying around in warships with giant laser beams conquering human kind. Yes, this DOES mean that lesser intellectual periods would last longer (baby, toddler, kid, teen, etc.) but that still gives the Uranos thousands/millions of years to advance their technology.

Sorry, but the rate of technological change does correlate with average lifespan of a society. Not so much the short term but most definitely in the long term.

Simply put evolution and technological development progresses at a rate of change. If there is no change then there can be little progress.

We don't say things like "Necessity is the mother of invention" for nothing you know.

But a race of virtual immortals would have very little needs and thus little to no motivation for creativity.

This has been borne out throughout human history. Empires have risen and fallen exactly because of stagnation.

As for your correlation to bugs, the reason bugs like roaches are so hard to kill is exactly because of their short lifespans allow them to rapidly adapt.

Long lived species adapt at a slower rate, for example they have less need for children since the population remains steady for long periods of time and thus no need to replace anyone.

Stable societies are less likely to produce rogues or random thinkers that look at things from different perspectives.

Ergo no fresh thinkers, and lets not forget the if it ain't broke then don't fix it mentality.

Frankly put technologically advance species do not necessarily continue to advance at a rapid pace. Especially if they have everything they already need.

We ourselves for example have forgotten about as much technology as we have learned.

Ancient Egyptians and Romans for example performed knee surgery and even put in replacement joint implants that bonded to the bone (according to recent findings), not to mention brain surgery like relieving pressure on the brain by cutting a hole in the skull, etc but that knowledge was lost and it took centuries to rediscover it.

Such examples can be seen throughout human history.

Even a long lived species can forget things after all. And the Creators gave up all their research when they left Earth.

There is also the tendency to over rely on technology, we ourselves are starting to suffer from this.

Just look at People from other countries that still use old methods of teaching, like using the Abacus instead of calculators. Kids from such countries can do advance math in their head while the rest of us struggle keeping our lives in order.

So a super advance race would be virtually handicapped by their technology unless

c) your mercury/mars comparison sounds totally pulled out of your ass

Why, because you never bothered checking the size to depth ratio?

The Asteroid isn't being shown hitting the Earth head on, it is shown hitting at an angle and both objects are thousands of miles wide.

You don't think that effects size perception?

It only appears Mars size if you look at them as 2 dimensional flat objects, and just compare the circumference of both, but they aren't!.

Taking the depth of both objects into account gives a depth distortion of over a thousand miles, and the Asteroid is closer to our point of view than the Earth.

[Jukai]

First off Zeo, too much use of the return key. Try to shrink some of that stuff up.

Nope, it's pretty much officially understood the Creators were on Earth for Billions of years.

You argue that Takaya uses exact timelines because he knows a bunch of cities in Japan and New York? That's a weak arguement dude. You can't tell me that Takaya uses the exact evolutionary timeline because of the creatures he shows, but then tell me that he uses a different time-line with the humans.

Besides, even if Archanfel literally slept for 10's of thousand of years doesn't mean he hadn't woken up many times between the time of the Creators and when Barcus found him.

Actually, Balcus has more or less stated that Alcanphel actually was sleeping the entire period.

Frankly put technologically advance species do not necessarily continue to advance at a rapid pace. Especially if they have everything they already need.

There is the flaw in your logic! You are saying that evolution correlates to the amount of technology a race of creatures would invent! I say LACK of evolution correlates to the amount of technology a race of creatures would NEED to invent. Your entire arguement is based on the fact that the Advents have everything they need. Since the Advent were creating a race of super adaptable warriors, there was clearly some sort of armed conflict going on, ala war. And if a species does not evolve fast enough, they will need to create many inventions to help them live... they are CLEARLY not very suited for multiple enviroment since that was the reason they were creating humans to go fight their wars for them.

A slower evolution, ALSO, does not correlate to how smart a race is. Tortoises live MUCH LONGER than human beings. Mice live much shorter. Dolphins are in the middle, and humans live inbetween tortoises and dolphins. Why do we ride in cars while the rest have little to no grasp of tool use what-so-ever? It's because we have evolved into a far smarter race then they have. How do you know the Advents are NOT just insanely smarter than your average human being? Regardless of lifespan, that still could probably mean thousands of technological breakthroughs between the time they left earth and now.

Still, let's say I believed you. Lastly, the Uranos were a GROUPING of species, not one type of species. For all you know, their numbers could include creatures that last a billion years and creatures that last five days. The collaboration of creatures, that, in your slightly flawed logic, learn and think extremely fast along with creatures that can retain information for eons, would invent things at a VERY fast rate.

Why, because you never bothered checking the size to depth ratio?

The Asteroid isn't being shown hitting the Earth head on, it is shown hitting at an angle and both objects are thousands of miles wide.

You don't think that effects size perception?

It only appears Mars size if you look at them as 2 dimensional flat objects, and just compare the circumference of both, but they aren't!.

Taking the depth of both objects into account gives a depth distortion of over a thousand miles, and the Asteroid is closer to our point of view than the Earth.

Okay, now this arguement is just ridiculous right now. The image of the FAR MORE MARS SIZED OBJECT crashing into earth is not viewed in third person. The image is Imurakami's thought process, looking at the asteroid approaching earth and then imagining what would happen if the meteor actually crashed into earth!! It could actually be moon sized and it could be just as large as the earth! What in the world are you trying to prove here? You're using vague scientific terms to try and win an arguement that is baseless.

Sheesh.

[*zeo]

I vote durendal :wink: Call me biased

jukai and zeo, can you guys get to the point and finish with the mega posts, or start a new topic.

Yes, sorry Ryuki, this should be my last substantial reply.

First off Zeo, too much use of the return key. Try to shrink some of that stuff up.

Sorry, that's on purpose since some on the board have problems reading text unless it is spaced. I got into the habit of doing that for their benefit.

Now for the corrections, I didn't argue that the time line was exactly the same I argued that the time line is similar. There is a difference you know... and I clearly said he also took liberties with the time line.

I only pointed out that many of his references were from actual history, he just changed details, and at least geographically he could be said to be accurate.

I emphasized the point that it was just close enough for a reasonable suspension of belief.

What is consistent is that life started on Earth about 4 Billion years ago, Takaya had the Creators come to the Earth back when life was just about to begin.

Takaya used mass extinctions to show the Creators cultivating life so it evolved the way they wanted it to, a process that takes time for life to both evolve and for the planet to recover from the damage each time.

This alone would account for millions of years, Takaya also included ice ages and we know they take place over millions of years.

Takaya clearly showed life forms from every evolutionary era, showing a correlation with known history. Again providing us an alternate history close enough to our own for a reasonable suspension of belief, which is I believe was his intent.

Of course he changed things, there isn't any evidence of alien activity in our real history after all but clearly Takaya based his story in and around known history.

Add the hidden meaning behind the Creators wanting to create a perfect bio-weapon is that to do so you basically have to start from scratch and on a planetary scale nothing is better than when life hasn't quite started yet to avoid contamination from evolutionary patterns you don't want in your design.

Sorry, but when I argue points I tend to be accumulative and list many points that all add together.

As to what Barcus stated, he really only stated Archanfel had been sleeping for 10's of thousand of years before he showed up, he never stated that this sleep period goes back to the time of the Creators, nor whether that was his only sleeping period.

We know for example that since Archanfel woke up and met Barcus 400 years ago that his periods of hybernation has progressively gotten longer. To the point that when we enter the Story he had already been hybernating for years. A period long enough for Guyot to not only be made a Zoalord but to also have never met Archanfel before he confronted him at Relic's Point.

So more than likely Archanfel had simply been time skipping, sleeping through human development, until humans reached a point that could be useful to him.

So we can't draw a accurate time line from that alone but practically everything else indicates that the time line basically follows our own with just some key changes.

There is the flaw in your logic! You are saying that evolution correlates to the amount of technology a race of creatures would invent! I say LACK of evolution correlates to the amount of technology a race of creatures would NEED to invent. Your entire arguement is based on the fact that the Advents have everything they need. Since the Advent were creating a race of super adaptable warriors, there was clearly some sort of armed conflict going on, ala war.

Sorry this isn't a flaw in my logic, the problem is you are assuming many things that don't really follow what we know about technological advancement...

1) Unless the war is still going on there would be no further stimulus and

2) It took Billions of years before they created humans, so their technological development was hardly going at a rapid pace to begin with...

3) My argument is not based on just the fact the Creators have everything they need, it is only one factor of many that I pointed out. My argument is based on what happens with an extemely long lived race.

The problem with long lived species is long life means there is less motivation for development, there is less to no pressure to change the status quo, there is no sense of urgency and thus they can easily take millennias on a single small experiment and consider it the same way we consider a one minute experiment.

There perception of time would be completely different from ours. . .

Few to no population increase means little to no new minds to look at problems from different perspectives, even geniuses need inspiration.

There is also the possibility the Creators are a uni or hive minded race, in which case there would be little diversity in thought.

All together means there is a good chance the Creators have made little to no advancements since they left, assuming they are even still alive if they were at war.

And if a species does not evolve fast enough, they will need to create many inventions to help them live... they are CLEARLY not very suited for multiple enviroment since that was the reason they were creating humans to go fight their wars for them.

Two problems, one the Creators had the technology to manipulate life and travel anywhere in the universe they wanted.

Meaning they could adapt all they wanted to and had virtually limitless resources... and Two the Creators had the Guyver Units, which to them granted them 1/10th the power it does a human host.

Meaning they were as powerful as a typical zoanoid physically and we know only Archanfel was their mental equal.

Even humans had to obey the Creators like zoanoids obey Zoalords, and presumably their mental powers extended beyond just telepathy just like Archanfel.

Additionally, the ability to tap the boost dimension meant they had limitless energy resources.

They could even take celestial objects, of at least small planetary masses and use them to smash other planets.

So on the contrary, the reason they were creating a warrior race is the same reason for slavery. They wanted something else to do the dirty work for them.

Only the hypers and Zoalord's would have exceeded the physical power of a Creator but they were never intended to be numerous.

The reason Archanfel only created 12 Zoalords is because that was the original plan by the Creators.

The Ark itself was the battleship they had planned to build.

A slower evolution, ALSO, does not correlate to how smart a race is.

Sorry but that is erroneous on two factors.

1) A species can't develop unless it evolves. So the faster the evolution the faster the development and the faster the progress. Two major human developments, like the switch to agriculture From the previous hunter gathering, correspond to the introduction of genes that effect the brain and altered the way we think.

2) We are talking about species who evolved intelligence, species that found other ways to survive don't need to evolve intelligence. You're confusing adapting with progress!

There were in fact other species that developed intelligence on this planet, it just so happens we beat them out and they became extinct while we thrived. Mostly because we were better at competing for Resources than they were, but it could easily have gone another way and one of those other branches of evolution could have become the dominant one.

We evolved the intelligence to survive. Most other species found other ways to adapt and survive and not all species have aposeable thumbs, which is a prerequisit for tool use. So let's be realistic about that now shall we?

All these comparison to other animals just shows life can choose many ways to survive, intelligence is just one of many tools in the evolutionary kit for species survival.

Predator species for example are almost always smarter than the prey species they hunt. Not so much because Predators are naturally smarter but they need to be in order to outsmart and eat their prey.

Again need is the mother of invention, and this includes mother nature. All species in the world evolved according to both the environment and the requirements of their survival.

There is also the fact there are other forms of intelligence, for example chimps can memorize sequential numbers sequences in a fraction of a second while human's find that practically impossible.

But unless you want to ignore human history, everything I pointed out about the factors involved for technological development are in fact true because they effected us.

So regardless of opinion human history has shown these factors to be what effects technological development over time.

How do you know the Advents are NOT just insanely smarter than your average human being?

It's irrevelant how smart they are as to whether or not they have evolved much since they left the Earth. As I stated before even geniuses need motivation and intelligence only counts if you use it.

The Creators are most likely smarter than humans, their technology is still far more advance than anything we have yet developed, but that doesn't mean they would develop at an accelerated rate from us.

For example, for the Billions of Years the Creators had spent on Earth they never changed the Relics!

In our own history technology did not always come from the smart People but by average People who either just had inspiration or got lucky.

Point being that being smart doesn't mean you will develop the next big advancement in technology. Sure it helps, but human history clearly shows that the greatest discoveries and advancements came literally out of nowhere.

Both plastic and insulin were discovered by accident for example!

Just recently a man dying from cancer got inspired to find a way to treat cancer without the side effects after seeing kids suffering from chemo-therapy. The thing is the guy had absolutely no medical background and was in fact an old fashion radio technician who just took his knowledge of radio waves and made a machine that kills cancer cells without effecting any surrounding tissue.

It's still in testing phases but so far it works and shows how such technology can come from the most unlikely of places and again shows that need is the true mother of invention.

But the Creators, being a long lived species probably never worry about such things as diseases or growing old.

Never mind just exploring space could take eons before they find anything significant to research.

Not to mention you are forgetting the Creators don't have human agressive tendency, it does make us violent but it also motivates us to invent and to compete.

Still, let's say I believed you. Lastly, the Uranos were a GROUPING of species, not one type of species. For all you know, their numbers could include creatures that last a billion years and creatures that last five days. The collaboration of creatures, that, in your slightly flawed logic, learn and think extremely fast along with creatures that can retain information for eons, would invent things at a VERY fast rate.

Possibly but not necessarily.

What we know for sure is that the Creators were on Earth for Billion of years, unless they had a colony or cycled personnel, possible but unlikely, then we must conclude they are extremely long lived.

Aside from guiding evolution they didn't directly genetic engineer anything until they decided upon humans being their chosen race.

So they took Billions of years just to get to human's! Despite the fact they could instantly zoaform humans into any form they wished.

Consequently, this does not lend itself to the idea that they would rapidly evolve technology in the relatively short period of time they have been gone.

Whether you believe the 20 million years or something shorter it is still a fraction of the time it took them to evolve humans.

Okay, now this arguement is just ridiculous right now. The image of the FAR MORE MARS SIZED OBJECT crashing into earth is not viewed in third person. The image is Imurakami's thought process, looking at the asteroid approaching earth and then imagining what would happen if the meteor actually crashed into earth!! It could actually be moon sized and it could be just as large as the earth! What in the world are you trying to prove here? You're using vague scientific terms to try and win an arguement that is baseless.

Sheesh.

Sorry but your reaction is not logical and ignores the evidence.

Yes it is an imagined image but nevertheless it is what we have to go on to determine the actual size of the asteroid.

First, the view is in fact not from the perspective of either the Earth or the Asteroid so it is indeed a third person perspective that we are shown of the two smashing into each other.

Second, the Mars size estimate came from just comparing the circumference of both to each other but that does not take into account the fact they are spherical objects, with the Asteroid being closer to our point of view than the Earth.

It really is a simple matter to use the Earth for scale and then adjust for depth perception distortion. The impact crater clearly shows that it is at an angle and not head on from our our perspective. So just take the radius of the Earth and add the radius of the Asteroid, can probably take away half for penetration depth, to get an approximate of how far the two circumference references are from each other.

This reduces the estimate of the asteroid from a Mars size Asteroid to a a bit smaller Mercury size Asteroid.

Regardless it is still a planetary size asteroid, Mercury is a planet after all (just smaller than Mars), and far bigger than a moon.

It's only Mars size if you assume the two objects are on the same axis from our perspective, but they aren't and thus my correction on the size estimate.

[Jukai]

Oh swet jesus... Before I BEGIN this phase of responses, I'm asking for a moderator to both move this to the scientific discussion forum and edit Zeo's posts so he STOPS USING THE RETURN KEY SO MUCH. It's aggrivating.

First point (I don't usually do the whole quote thing):

You're assuming. Stop assuming. The exact text in the Manga says that the Advent came to earth because it could substain life, not because it was beginning to substain life. This could be exactly four billion years ago, or a hundred million years ago. You're assuming the Advent would create cellular life, then wait for it to evolve. There is little to no evidence of this in the story.

Takaya shows (in only one picture in the entire manga) multiple steps in the evolutionary circle as a colorful effect to show that the Advent created all the creatures on earth from the beginning to end. You're assuming that this also shows some sort of timeline. For all we know, they could have created the entire Jurassic time period in a day, watched it for a week, then obliterated it in a day. They only brought meteors on the earth when they realized that their next experiments needed a different climate. If they have the ability to create and predict cellular life, it's reasonable to believe that they can speed up climatic and enviromental changes.

Of course, I'm just assuming. We have no way of knowing how long things took.... so I'm saying your next point, which is VERY wrong, is also irrelevant because we have no idea how long it took to create earth. Keep assuming though, I'll just keep reminding you how your points could also be wrong.

Anyway, I thought about it for a while, and I'll use your logic against you. For shits and giggles.

You're claiming it took the Advent 4 billion years to create the earth. You're claiming the advent advance at a snails pace, maybe a scientific breakthrough every 10-100 million years. If this is the case, and the universe has only existed for 13 billion years... even assuming that the Advent have existed since the BEGINNING OF TIME, how in the world did they progress to the level of creating cellular growth in the blink of an eye and traversing lightyears of space in a matter of minutes? This makes zero sense if you're trying to convince me that the Advent both evolve and advance at an unimaginable snails pace. Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Second point:

I'll just point out this:

3) My argument is not based on just the fact the Creators have everything they need, it is only one factor of many that I pointed out. My argument is based on what happens with an extemely long lived race.

You do not KNOW what happens to extremely long lived races. How many extremely long lived races do you know? Assumingggggggggggggg.

Two problems, one the Creators had the technology to manipulate life and travel anywhere in the universe they wanted.

You make them sound technologically unlimited. If this is the case, then YEAH, if they have unlimited technology and can do whatever they wanted, I guess there is no longer a need to progress, and but then there's absolutely no way for Chronos to catch up with them. Great!!!

Just some other points that annoyed me:

Meaning they were as powerful as a typical zoanoid physically and we know only Archanfel was their mental equal.

Alcanphel isn't their mental equal... please show me the chapter+page where this is stated. Alcanphel was stopped dead in his tracks with a thought by the Advent. This really doesn't show mental equal. Also, you go on and on about mental powers which is completely off subject.

1) A species can't develop unless it evolves. So the faster the evolution the faster the development and the faster the progress. Two major human developments, like the switch to agriculture From the previous hunter gathering, correspond to the introduction of genes that effect the brain and altered the way we think.

Yes, this is true... sorta a decent point, but I woulda ironically responded with what you said next:

2) We are talking about species who evolved intelligence, species that found other ways to survive don't need to evolve intelligence. You're confusing adapting with progress!

Actually sir, I think YOU are confusing adaptability with progress. That was my whole point of my previous post. Considering we only know of one species that have evolved intelligently, we cannot assume that all species evolved like us. We have only RECENTLY evolved into intelligent creatures and we are having VAST improvements in technology only in the last two hundreds years of our 200,000 years of existance. But alas, YOUR entire previous post was telling me that creatures that evolve slower take longer to create technology. Now you're verging on a tangent. I only brought up the other animals because you tried to convince me that roaches, with small life spans, evolve VERY fast.

So regardless of opinion human history has shown these factors to be what effects technological development over time.

Computers, spaceships, submarines, HDTV, vibrators... did these inventions come out because of evolution, or random scientific advancement? Did we NEED to invent these? No. They came out because of wants, or major events (war, international rivalries, sexual drives but unable to pick up men) in our timelines. This had nothing to do with Evolution.

There is also the fact there are other forms of intelligence, for example chimps can memorize sequential numbers sequences in a fraction of a second while human's find that practically impossible.

I don't know why I quoted this, it's a completely worthless point.

It's irrevelant how smart they are as to whether or not they have evolved much since they left the Earth. As I stated before even geniuses need motivation and intelligence only counts if you use it.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY AREN"T MOTIVATED? You're assuming! These are made-up aliens in a comic! They could evolve everyday and have billion year lifespans! CAP LOCK!

For example, for the Billions of Years the Creators had spent on Earth they never changed the Relics!

They never changed the outward appearence of the relics. Assssuuuuuumingggggggg.

Not to mention you are forgetting the Creators don't have human agressive tendency, it does make us violent but it also motivates us to invent and to compete.

They brought a giant meteor down to earth.... Not violent?

Third point:

Uh, you may be completely right, but I'm not exactly understanding how you're coming to this estimate. You're using terms I don't really understand

But your final estimates don't seems to make much sense... if the asteroid is 1.8 kilometers long from pole to pole, it's about as big as pluto, and much smaller than mercury. It's a dumb point though.

[*zeo]

Okay, short reply...

1) That's a comma, not a dot. So 1,879.5 km for the flat estimate. And the Relics are shown both when they came to Earth and when they left and they are exactly the same. Ergo no assumption!!!

2) Read books 14 and 15, they show things like fossilized dinosaur (that process does take millions of years you know), and states things like they wiped out the dinosaurs with a meteor (something the planet would most definitely take millions of years to fully recover from). Among other nice points that completely blow your arguments out of the water.

3) Fact is Barcus stated Archanfel can command even humans and lost numbers, Aptom is an exception because he has no telepathy whatsoever. The only way for the other Zoalords to match this is with the psychowave amplifier which amps them 12 fold. Next we know the Creators gave Archanfel mental powers like they possess and that they admitted to him that he was on the edge of their control tolerance (it's right there in the translation in book 15 as the Creators are leaving).

But the reason they can still control him is because he is still a zoaform, so is genetically bound to obey them. Never mind even with equal mental power there was still many of them and just one of him.

4) The exact text says the Creators came to Earth long ago, and even call Earth Gaia and say that was its original name. And ever since then they had been guiding the development of life on this world, which was when they showed the picture showing the linear chronology of life forms from single cell to man.

But you seem to want something that blatantly says they came during the primordial ooze period, so give the intro narration of the original OAV a listen. It pretty much just comes out and says it!

5) I'm not assuming how a long lived species will behave, I'm logically pointing out the consequences of being a long lived species. It is something many People have been thinking on for a long time. We also have history and patterns of nature to back up those conclusion.

From our own history we can draw many factors to support the premise.

Like the fact over time we have practically doubled our lifespans.

Life was once a lot shorter than it is now, Romeo and Juliette for example (just a few centuries ago) were only 14 and already thought themselves almost too old to marry.

There are still parts of the world that would consider a 35 year old a grandparent.

Even our modern world proves it every single day.

People in developed nations live longer, but those nations develop at a slower pace than less developed nations.

Even with countries of equal technology, a smaller nation like Japan can more rapidly change than a big country like the US.

For example, the NYC subway still uses technology from the early 1900's, while in Japan they have Maglev and Bullet trains.

Japan has the next gen in cellular technology, the US is just catching up.

Third world nations have a much greater population growth than first world nations.

On and on, example after example. The fact is the more secure and long lived we get the slower we advance.

It's simply conservation of energy, which applies to cultures as well as to physics.

We don't need to know how smart the Creators are, just what factors are influencing their society.

6) Chronos may never catch up to the Creators, as is most of their technology is jury rigged Creator tech. The Ark itself was something the Creators had planned to build and they just followed the plans and used the remains of a Relic for raw material.

7) Human technology has been growing in bursts off and on throughout history. Many of our so called modern advancement isn't really modern, just rediscovered.

Roman's had indoor plumbing, running water, indoor heating sytems, Saunas, swimming pools, ice cream, valves, pleasure ships equivalent to our cruise ships, concrete, roads, etc.

Egyptians and Roman's had access to brain surgery, knee replacement surgery, birth control, disease control methods similar to modern hospitals. Even the tools used would be recognizable to modern doctors.

It's really shocking how much we had known and forgotten...

But the changes you point to contradict your argument, we advanced because of change. Not from simply being smart!!!

A species that does not change does not advance. Pure and simple FACT!!!

I pointed to roaches to contradict your fly reference, they do in fact adapt and evolve but they don't follow our path. Which is why you can't use them to dismiss the fact evolution plays a role in intelligence. It's the same as an animal evolving to run faster, stronger, etc.

Our brains are the result of our evolution, plain and simple. Every characteristic of our intelligence played a role in our survivability.

Which is why we share so many traits with our simian cousins. Chimps for example do occassional gather into groups and go out to find other groups and if smaller will attack and kill them. So war is something in our evolutionary tree.

We also share 98% of our DNA with chimps, so only 2% makes us human versus a chimp.

Intelligence is also specialized, we for example don't have instant photographic memory. A chimp however can take a fraction of a second and memorize a complex sequence of numbers and follow the pattern exactly every single time.

Flash the same numbers in front of a human and we barely get 1/3 on average correct.

Yet we are clearly the more intelligent species, because we traded instant memory for other mental traits that better suite our needs for survival.

Also nothing prevents us from de-evolving as well. Just like a muscle non-use would cause our brain to become less advance over time.

As living beings the Creators would not be immune to such factors. And the fact remains that everything we know about the Creators suggest they are already at a technological epoch and would not be prone to rapid advancement.

[Jukai]

More quick responses:

1) So it's a pluto sized astroid. I mean, you totally kicked my ass with that mathematical equation you made there, I'm just picking hairs on this one.

also:

And the Relics are shown both when they came to Earth and when they left and they are exactly the same. Ergo no assumption!!!

No, this is an assumption. They're living ships, so chances are the outside is going to remaint he same, but the insides could have changed drastically. This actually makes sense, since

2) Sorry, but unless it' the translation, I read books 14 and 15 over again and I'm more convinced they drastically spread up the process. They talk about things like altering the earths enviroment for their causes, and increases the size of dinosaurs to make them more savage for their needs. And yes, you see a fossil of a dinosaur, but I'd like to also remind you that ALCHANPHEL FOUGHT A DINOSAUR that the creaters just randomly whipped up for him. I'm not saying the Advent's process didn't say millions, if not a billion years, but I just can't conquere with you that it took exactly 3.3 billion years. The Creators don't say "we came eons ago to your planet" but "many many years." They also say they created Alcanphel just like they "created all life on this planet," so you can take this phrase like you are taking it ('tweaking life") or I am taking it ("THEY LITERALLY CREATED THE LIFE). I've read these books before, you know.

3) Quote from book 15, "what would become of us if any other should possess a unit... such accidents may very well occur in the future... We realized it during the recent experiment... in the end, we consider you almost outside our control tolerance. We have no defense against a being out of our control."

Now, I may be completely wrong on this, because I think everyone agrees with you that the Creators are actually talking to Alcanphel in this quote... but I think that the Creators are talking about the HUMAN RACE. This is digressing here, but I don't think they were really worried about Alcanphel. When they saw that a human with the unit wouldn't be controlled by their mind control, they realized how fragile their mind control was over humans, and realized they couldn't control them 100% of the time. You may be right though, as everyone seems to agree with you on this.

4) The intro to the ova says no such thing. And I see that picture you're referring to... I see the quote... and I can see where you are GETTING all this...

but that still doesn't mean the process took 3.3 billion years. This is a comic book. What if the entire process took the advents 500 million years? Or 250 million? They have the technology to change the enviroment, to speed up evolution, and there are CONSTANT quotes on tweaking a lifeform to their needs, or creating life. I've never said this process took a day, but it doesn't make SENSE that the Uranos are 5 billion years old.

5) First off, I still find huge flaws in your logic (if life span was much shorter back then, why are we inventing things at 50x the speed when our lifespan is TWICE AS LONG/Less developed nations do NOT develop faster than developed nations... they develop slowly and only increase in their technology because they're taking it from other countries/Later developed countries have better implimentation of technology because they impliment it after better things are already made... this is a completely mute point, I did an entire 12-page paper on this in my tech class/) but you're still using HUMANS as your base example, and you have no other lifeform to compare to this. And another thing, you DON'T know the factors that influence their society. So stop pretending you do.

6) This we agree on. This was actually my entire point of arguement from the beginning. If we agree on this, I'm not sure why we're going to continue this debate. However, I guarentee we will!

7) First off, we didn't "forget" technology, they were lost in times when we had no means of storing this information properly for future generations. I guarentee, unless there is a nuclear war, no one is going to forget about the refridgerator.

Secondly, the fact that you mention that different species evolve differently, at different paces, because of different factors, is something I can now USE to say you have no idea how the Uranos evolved, at what pace, and because of what factors.

Look, I'm reading what you're writing, and a lot of it is not only far outside the realm of anything remotely related to this arguement (and incredibly boring), but I feel we're splitting hairs here. I'm just SAYING that you're assuming the Creators are just like us, but who live 8 billion years, and advance every second, and this was throwing fuel on the fire to all those People who were arguing that Chronos can eventually catch up and SURPASS the technology of the Advent. I was saying that no one knows how long lived the Creators were, nor do you know the factors that are effecting their lives. They had a 100 million-3.3 billion war project that failed, and if they are in a global war, who the hell KNOWS what technology they were forced to come up with in those 10-100 thousand year.

And ANOTHER note, who knows what OTHER technological breakthroughs the Creators were working on at the same time as the Gaia Project which upped their technology by a thousand fold.

Also, you never responded to this, so I'm going to post it again because I think it's an awesome flaw in your arguement:

You're claiming it took the Advent 4 billion years to create the earth. You're claiming the advent advance at a snails pace, maybe a scientific breakthrough every 10-100 million years. If this is the case, and the universe has only existed for 13 billion years... even assuming that the Advent have existed since the BEGINNING OF TIME, how in the world did they progress to the level of creating cellular growth in the blink of an eye and traversing lightyears of space in a matter of minutes? This makes zero sense if you're trying to convince me that the Advent both evolve and advance at an unimaginable snails pace. Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

LARGE NOTE: I am much more prone to agree that they have advanced pretty much unimaginably and there's not much else to advance on at this point. So you may be right on their lack of development at this end of the arguement.

[*zeo]

Again, fossilation takes time. Millions of years of time, which means the Creators changes paths and went with mammals to create humans which at the minimum means the dinosaurs were killed off millions of years before Archanfel was created.

And Archanfel did not fight a dinosaur, Guyver Zero did and it wasn't a normal T-Rex but one that had been zoaformed and thus was as powerful as an entire squad of normal zoanoids.

Never mind when they mention altering the environment they show things like Mass extinction size Meteorites smashing into the planet. Again, no matter what else the Creators did it would take millions of years for the planet itself to recover from such events.

You are also blatantly ignoring the fact they also said they let nature take its course! Nowhere did they ever say that they accelerated the process.

Quote: 1) So it's a pluto sized astroid. I mean, you totally kicked my ass with that mathematical equation you made there, I'm just picking hairs on this one.

Quit it with the misquoting already. I said Mercury size, Pluto is not even classified as a planet anymore.

I didn't show you the math I used to calculate the actual size of the Asteroid, I only pointed out the revelant factors and the approximates you would need to consider to get the right figure.

Quote: No, this is an assumption. They're living ships, so chances are the outside is going to remaint he same, but the insides could have changed drastically. Sorry, but the burden of proof is on your side of that argument. The fact is there is nothing to indicate any change.

For one thing a living ship, is a ship so the things that would be changed would be its exterior since that is what is used to allow it to function as a ship. For another we have a diagram of the Relic's interior and there is nothing to indicate the Creators had been tweaking it in any way. And for a third a living ship means all its systems are integrated just like a body and so any significant change would be apparent throughout its structure.

Yes, the Creators talked about manipulating the environment. The only thing is the modifications they speak of include things like dropping asteroids on it every now and then to change the course of evolution.

Which only means they triggered the changes, not that they speeded it up.

Point of fact they used evolution to evolve life on the planet, evolution is not an instantaneous process. At minimum they needed to wait for many generations to pass for any change to occur.

Yes, they increased the size of dinosaurs to make them more savage for their needs. But they also increased the oxygen ratio of the planet and that takes time to do. \

Note they told Archanfel that the planet no longer had the level of oxygen needed for the T-Rex, but they had zoaformed the T-Rex so it was a T-Rex in appearance only.

Correction, on your point abou Archanfel and the dinosaur, they cloned and zoaformed a T-Rex to fight Guyver Zero and Archanfel only witnessed the fight and didn't take part in it. Archanfel did not fight the dinosaur, only Guyver Zero.

This however, only proves they could clone something up from the DNA they had already developed and had in their data banks. Fact remains they specifically let nature take its course to evolve humans.

It can be debated what the Creators actually said, the Advocacy translations aren't always right... But regardless they never said how long ago they came to Earth!

Never mind other sources definitely say Eons!

But there are examples, like when they told him they use to call the planet Gaia, and that was in fact it's "ancient" name! A clear indication they arrived long ago since they also show an image of them approaching the planet in the same page.

The very next panel on the next page shows them landing on a volcanic Earth, which means they landed before the planet had completely cooled and thus before life had stated. Placing their arrival at about 4 billion years ago in geological time.

And only then are we shown the linear time line image of life evolving on this planet, with the pre-man up front indicating the progression leading ultimately to humans.

Nowhere is it indicated that they rushed the process and the image of the Relics landing on a pre-life Earth, along with examples like dinosaur fossils, all clearly indicate that literally Eons of time has passed since the Creators arrived on the planet.

No one disagrees that the Creators manipulated life on Earth, it's the whole reason they have claim to having created the many life forms on the planet. But it's a very different thing to say they directly manipulated and accelerated things when the whole point of an evolutionary experiment is to let evolution take place.

It's not evolution if they engineer what develops!

Now, I may be completely wrong on this, because I think everyone agrees with you that the Creators are actually talking to Alcanphel in this quote... but I think that the Creators are talking about the HUMAN RACE. This is digressing here, but I don't think they were really worried about Alcanphel. When they saw that a human with the unit wouldn't be controlled by their mind control, they realized how fragile their mind control was over humans, and realized they couldn't control them 100% of the time. You may be right though, as everyone seems to agree with you on this.

There is also the image of a Guyver Zoalord that was used in book4 when Murikami was telling everyone the history of the world according to Chronos.

We also have the memories of the Relic in book 7 when G1 linked up with the Relic, which also shows the Creators landing in a primordial Earth and starting to evolve life from the very beginning, and it also showed the evolutionary eras in linear order which again emphasises that the Creators had been evolving life on the Earth for an extremely long period of time.

4) The intro to the ova says no such thing.

True, it is only mentioned when Guyot is explaining the Guyver history and says "After Eons of trial and error" the Creators created humans. The intro just showed a primordial Earth and says that led to the Guyver, a more summarized version but still emphasises the same thing.

This is a comic book.

Doesn't matter, it is a comic book based on an alternated interpretation of our own world. Takaya only ever suggested that what we saw as random events was actually aliens tampering with our evolution.

It isn't suggested that they accelerated the process from what we know of history. It's just an alternate time line but it takes place over the same time period since it is based on our real history.

It wouldn't be able to give us a reasonable suspension of belief otherwise.

Whatever your arguments you can't get around the fact life on this planet started about 4 Billion Years ago and the Creators are shown landing at that time. So it doesn't matter if they accelerated evolution.

I could also easily counter that it simply means it would have taken even longer for humans to have evolved naturally. It doesn't mean we change the time line from established time scale.

You're also forgetting the Creators were constantly experimenting, even if they accelerated evolution it still takes time to test out every evolutionary design and the near infinite number of ways they could alter evolution.

The mass extinction of the dinosaurs for example, they specifically said it made room for mammals to evolve. Nowhere did it say, "oh lets forget the dinos and lets make humans"!

And letting nature take its course does not mean they micomanaged every second of the evolutionary process but rather the opposite.

Never mind they also had to maintain an ecosystem for each evolutionary era as otherwise there would be no way for life to survive and evolve without the Resources to do so.

There is also the perception of time factor a long lived species would be effected by that you seem to completely have ignored as a factor.

To put it very clearly, to a species that can live virtually forever an experiment that takes millions of years to complete is but a blink of an eye to the time scale considerations of such long lived beings.

You're treating 10's of thousand of years from a perspective of how we would view such a period of time.

But to a virtually immortal race it might as well have been a single second of time. Basically the point you are missing is they can be extremely patient and have no reason not to take all the time needed to get a job/experiment done.

5) First off, I still find huge flaws in your logic (if life span was much shorter back then, why are we inventing things at 50x the speed when our lifespan is TWICE AS LONG/Less developed nations do NOT develop faster than developed nations... they develop slowly and only increase in their technology because they're taking it from other countries/Later developed countries have better implimentation of technology because they impliment it after better things are already made...

Nope, developing nations are changing at a far greater pace than already developed nations. Just look at the development over time of each country around the world and the pattern becomes clear.

Like the example of NYC transit still using technology from the early 1900's. Developing nations can grow and advance much more easily, while developed nations start to slow down and get bogged down with older tech that for one reason or another hasn't gotten replaced.

For example, the US may be leading the world in computer technology but we aren't the leaders of cellphone technology development.

And a lot of our rapid development came about simply because we have more Resources and more People working on problems together than before.

But there will come a point where this rapid development will slow down again.

And again none of this avoid the issue that we invent things because we need things, we have problems that need solving, etc.

While the Creators have virtually everything they could ever want already and as a long lived species, they wouldn't have our level of urgency in getting things done.

this is a completely mute point, I did an entire 12-page paper on this in my tech class/) but you're still using HUMANS as your base example, and you have no other lifeform to compare to this. And another thing, you DON'T know the factors that influence their society. So stop pretending you do.

Sorry but humans are what we got to make comparisons to and the fact is the idea of the Creators was created by a HUMAN!!!

Regardless of intent or interpretation we invariably embue our fictional creations with at least some aspects of ourselves.

Never mind just like physics and mathematics there are things that are frankly universal and would be true of any intelligent species.

Like my reference to conservation of energy, this applies to social structures and technological rate of development of a given society.

What your studies of technology development may not have gotten across to you is that we do have theories in place for the different possible alien cultures that may be out there and scenarios like extremely long life spans have been considered for both ourselves and possible alien cultures. And it is these theories that I'm basing my opinion on along with what I can logically draw from what is shown in the Manga.

6) This we agree on. This was actually my entire point of arguement from the beginning. If we agree on this, I'm not sure why we're going to continue this debate. However, I guarentee we will!

Accept this point actually goes against your argument that the Creators would have greatly advanced. Conceeding that Chronos may have a very difficult time to catch up to the Creators, and they got Creator tech to help them along like a cheat sheet, but yet you expect the Creators to advance even further than them.

Not to mention the additional burden of creating new tech would be greater for them since they are already advance.

Just like we know Moore's law for computer advancement will not hold true forever, we can only make electronics so small and no smaller.

The Creators would have similar barriers in their way.

You also claim we don't forget technology, Really, then tell me, how many modern People know how to survive in the wilderness? Or know how to forge damascus steel?

Sorry but we do forget technology, especially if we don't see an immediate every day use for it.

And losing technology is the same as forgetting it for humans as a race.

The Creators for example gave up all the technology they had developed on Earth when they left and tried to destroy the Earth.

They didn't even take Archanfel with them as so much as a consolation prize to recoupe their losses.

Secondly, the fact that you mention that different species evolve differently, at different paces, because of different factors, is something I can now USE to say you have no idea how the Uranos evolved, at what pace, and because of what factors.

True, but the fact is I don't need to know they came to be. The only thing revelant is how long it took them to make any advancement while they were on Earth to predict what could have happened in the intervening time.

Frankly the evidense overwhelmingly suggest they took an incredible amount of time to make any significant advances and still they were more or less exactly the same as when the first came to the Earth to experiment.

I'm just SAYING that you're assuming the Creators are just like us

Not really, just that they are a long lived species that made advances over millions of years compared to our scale of just decades.

To be clear, I'm not assuming they are 8 Billion years old, only that they are older than 4. It all depends how long ago they discovered the Guyver organism and started using the units. Up till then they could have been very short lived, as that would explain their high level of technology.

Maybe someday Chronos will catch up with the Creators, but it's just going to take some time. But like the Creators Chronos has time.

Remember Barcus is over 400 hundred years old, Shin is about 30 years younger, and Prug'stall was over 215.

Yet despite having the power of Zoalords' they waited centuries before actually taking over the world. In no small part this was due to the simple fact that as zoalords they don't have to worry about time. So they could afford to wait and develop the Resources to make the take over easier and more efficient.

I was saying that no one knows how long lived the Creators were, nor do you know the factors that are effecting their lives. They had a 100 million-3.3 billion war project that failed, and if they are in a global war, who the hell KNOWS what technology they were forced to come up with in those 10-100 thousand year.

Problems...

1) We're assuming they were at war, yet they took nearly 4 billion years to develop weapons for that war? Unlikely, more likely is they were just the Creator equivalent of weapon manufacturers making weapons to be used later.

2) We have the near 4 billion year period to compare and see if the Creators altered their technology in any significant way but no such indications are apparent.

3) We know the Creators were here since the beginning, and nowhere does it say they ever left or changed personnel, leaving us with the only remaining logical conclusion that they simply extremely long lived beings..

As to what breakthroughs they could have made during their time on Earth? Again, can you provide any examples? No, then logically we can't assume they made any significant advances to their technology other than developing their human bio-weapons.

And on your point about how could the Creators have evolved? I never said they started out as extremely long lived beings!

Obviously they evolved and became the beings they are, but that has nothing to do with what they are NOW!!!

We started out as Apes, or something very much like apes, but that doesn't change the fact we are NOW human beings for example.

My argument is simply that based on what we know it is unlikely that 10's of thousands of years is necessarily enough for them to have made significant advances.

Of course this doesn't exclude some advances, it's just not likely that their super tech has become super super tech is all.

[Jukai]

Point A:

You are not allowed to use "burden of proof" for any of your counter-arguements. Everything you have said is lacking any sort of direct quote or mention in the series. You are banned from using the term "you're making an assumption" or "You have no way of knowing that" either. You are not allowed to talk about an inability to suspend beliefs if I'm right, because the entire story focuses on a cybernetic symbiote alien bonding with a human to fight a giant freakin' eel creature. I'm sorry you're having trouble suspending your beliefs the things I am telling you here.

Point B:

Someone said "mars sized" and you arrogently said "closer to mercury sized" so I'm saying "much closer to pluto sized" which is technically a dwarf planet.

Point C:

Guyver Zero fought a T-Rex. This means the Creators can whip up dinosaurs whenever they want. Kinda worthless to let nature take its course, eh? Yes, they used meteors to cause mass extinction but you're ASSUMING this is the only thing they did. I have pointed out quotes which state they altered the size of dinosaurs to make them better predators, and created specific humans from nothing. Stop ignoring the quotes that don't work for you and throwing in my face repetitively quotes that DO work. You are ASSUMING the quotes the Uranos used were only for dropping meteors on the planet. I am assuming they are not. Why are you telling me evolution cannot be sped up? There is NO WAY to break the speed of light, humans cannot be turned into fish creatures, there is no such gene in a humans body that allows them to be controlled telepathically. URANOS DON'T EXIST. Stop using common sense scientific fact to back up a comic book.

How in the world is using earth's ancient name proof that the earth was created 3.3 billion years ago? You're stretching man. The earth had areas covered in valcanos all the way up to 200 million years ago, and more to the point, you're STILL arguing that real world carbon dating and aging studies are correct. My entire arguement has been based on the assumption that the Creators may have created the world in 100 million years, we do not know the exact date, so stop assuming.

Now there are lots of lines, as I've pointed out, which I consider that the Uranos were tampering with us at stages of our evolution, rushing the process along, altering us step by step. You have straight up told me that everything I have told you is either wrong or "Advocacy mistranslating lines." Maybe some of them are right. Think about it.

Point D: Just a side note, those "blueprints" aren't original creator plans, sir. These are the blueprints of the information CHRONOS got from the ship.

Point E: Another side note, you must be reading a different translation from me. They never mentioned anything about oxygen content. They just said the enviroment wasn't suited for the T-Rex. You're probably throwing in more scientific details which have nothing to do with this discussion.

I've only judging on the Advocacy translation. If you have other translations, feel free to show me sir.

Point F: You seem to be claiming the Creators did nothing but launch meteors at earth and watch what happened and hoped for the best. Let me ask you, if the Creators had enough technology to take humans and turn them into rhinos and beatles and gods, why did they wait to see what evolution would give them? It is LOGICAL to assume they helped speed up evolution.

Point G: Because this is still obviously lost on you, I am saying in the story that the earth may not be 3.3 billion years old. For the comic book. Not in real life.

Point H: You are still using that NYC subway technology thing to make your arguments. I did a research paper on this specifically. It's not that these nations are developing faster than us, it's that the technology is ALREADY LAID OUT FOR THEM and new materials are available for them, new ways of constructing tracks properly are laid out for them... so they have greater technology available to them. Back when the NYC subways were made, that was top notch. Unfortunately, we cannot simply tear up the tracks and replace them. This has nothing to do with developing nations developing faster than us.

Also, I'd stop using Japan as your key example, cause Japan as a nation has been around much longer than the United States.

Point I: In my lifetime, I have never seen a Guyver. Or a Zoanoid. Or a Zoalord. Considering these are completely alien concepts to us Humans, I am going out on a limb here and saying the Creators may be as well. Also, adding onto this point, some universal constants do not hold in the world of Guyver, like, let's say, creating mass (a human turning into Gregore) or gravity (from Guyot's fists) from nothing. Sure, you can give me a bullshit fake scientific explanation, but I'll bet ya no matter how advanced humans get, we'll never be able to make a human sporatically turn into Gregore.

Point J: To correct another assumption you made, my entire point of this arguement was to inform everyone that you're assuming the earth, in the Guyver universe, was made 3.3 billion years ago, and my point is you don't know that. Capish?

Also, since you're asking:

How to Forge Damascus Steel

How to survive in the wilderness

GASP! That information is readily available to us! Instantaneously I know how to survive in the wilderness AND forge damascus steel! God bless the internet, one example of the PROPER STORAGE OF INFORMATION I was talking about that someone missed.

Point K:

True, but the fact is I don't need to know they came to be. The only thing revelant is how long it took them to make any advancement while they were on Earth to predict what could have happened in the intervening time.

Wrong. War is known to spur incredible growth. Disease advances technology incredibly. The need to communicate, the need to transport, the need to entertain ones self. You're assuming they have all the answers to everything. As-sume.

Point L:

Remember Barcus is over 400 hundred years old, Shin is about 30 years younger, and Prug'stall was over 215.

Yet despite having the power of Zoalords' they waited centuries before actually taking over the world. In no small part this was due to the simple fact that as zoalords they don't have to worry about time. So they could afford to wait and develop the Resources to make the take over easier and more efficient.

so... if these guys are seemingly immortal... Why did they go from sailing ships to building spaceships in 400 years? Hmmm..... This goes against every single thing you have said to me since the beginning of this arguement!

Wait, don't tell me why, I know the answers. Factors.

Point M:

1) We're assuming they were at war, yet they took nearly 4 billion years to develop weapons for that war? Unlikely, more likely is they were just the Creator equivalent of weapon manufacturers making weapons to be used later.

But... but... to a race that lives eight billion years, wouldn't war be like... a million years and a bajillion casualties is like... a second? Man!!!

Also, why the hell were they building a race of warriors in warships if they were at a time of peace? According to EVERYTHING YOU HAVE TOLD ME, there would be absolutely no reason for this if they have everything they need.

2) We have the near 4 billion year period to compare and see if the Creators altered their technology in any significant way but no such indications are apparent.

There's a few things I have to say about this. A) we don't know it was 4 billion years, you really wont get off that. B) We only literally see the Creators at one time period. For you to make such an assumption is astounding. C) Creating anthropods to human beings shows serious technological advancement.

3) We know the Creators were here since the beginning, and nowhere does it say they ever left or changed personnel, leaving us with the only remaining logical conclusion that they simply extremely long lived beings..

Oh jesus... where does it say they didn't??? Doesn't it make LOGICAL sense for a few staff changes if they've been working on a project, with your guestimation, of 4 billion years? You're saying because there is an absence of knowledge, we must logically assume that all that exists is all we know. If that's the case, then if I break my gas guage, I will NEVER RUN OUT OF GAS EVER AGAIN.

Point Z (my favorite point):

You're claiming it took the Advent 4 billion years to create the earth. You're claiming the advent advance at a snails pace, maybe a scientific breakthrough every 10-100 million years. If this is the case, and the universe has only existed for 13 billion years... even assuming that the Advent have existed since the BEGINNING OF TIME, how in the world did they progress to the level of creating cellular growth in the blink of an eye and traversing lightyears of space in a matter of minutes? This makes zero sense if you're trying to convince me that the Advent both evolve and advance at an unimaginable snails pace. Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Jukai

[Toku Warrior]

How about you guys just agree to disagree and be done with it? This argument/debate is just nothing but one person saying one thing, the other counters, then the latter tries and uses the same response in a different way. It's an endless waltz of repitition.

[*YoungGuyver]

Man, I can't believe I read all that.

Some things were interesting though.

Anyway, I just wanted to toss a few things in.

-For one thing, there are theories out there that there are other universes in existence. That when a universe is coming close to death, the inhabitants may develop the technology to cross into a new universe in order to survive. The Uranos may have entered this universe from another. We DO know they can cross the dimensional barrier, at least cross into the boost dimension. But in the end, this is speculation. There is also the theory that our universe is composed of other universes, that the law of conservation of energy is absolute, that the big bang was feeding off of others.

-Zeo, stop ignoring his point about third world nations taking the tech that others develop. He made a good point there. It would be good to counter it with an example that disprove it. Japan is an interesting case though. They had regular trains for quite a while, they have a HUGE population, and they replaced it all with mag levs and the like. Can we get some stats on that? Or should we bother?

-we actually do have a suggestion that the Relics changed over time. when the relics were first drawn descending to Earth, they were drawn as kind of a mushroom shape. Or at least they were 'flatter' on the bottom. Later, they were drawn in more of an egg shape. This could be interpreted as developing style of Takaya, or the Uranos advanced. Take your pick, it's open to debate.

-Define evolution. Shall we use a more liberal, poetic interpretation? If the Uranos said they made the dinosaurs bigger, I think we have to give them at least a few liberties. What about Waferdonas? I'd have to read the translation again, but wasn't he made to terraform Earth a little? Or at least as a part of a terraforming project that was abandoned? Genetic engineering HAD to be involved with his development.

-If the Uranos were at war, that would be MOTIVATION to develop weapons quickly. I think Jukai tried to make that point earlier. But being long lived is no excuse in that case for developing slowly. Urgency would be a factor in many types of war, which leads into my next point/topic

-I'm really curious about the type of war the Uranos wanted us to fight. Always have been. Why did the Creators want to develop foot soldiers? Aren't foot soldiers rather primitive? We ourselves are developing weapons that destroy the enemy from a distance. Bombs and the like. Or why not diseases? What kind of enemy were they fighting? The Uranos clearly demonstrated the ability to cause MASS EXTINCTIONS, so why the foot soldiers? Why zoanoids?

There are reasons in battle why you don't destroy everything. Such as if you want to preserve the buildings and the other spoils of war. You may also be mixed in among them, such as if you are a slave, or you want to keep your slaves in line. You may also want to conquer your enemy, to enslave them. Many reasons for fighting with foot soldiers. It really suggests the kind of scenario the Uranos were facing.

We know the Uranos had time. They took a long time to develop zoanoids. They developed foot soldiers. And in the flashback, one creator suggested the Guyver experiment, which suggests that even though they were all in agree-ance, they had individual minds. After the Guyver 0 disaster, they commented on how they communicated with the central federation (or whatever it was called) for advise on how to deal with the situation. So they had a controlling body.

I suppose the Uranos could have been slaves that secretly went out to try and develop a weapon to overthrow their task masters. But the central federation sounds like a big government type thing, and even though it 'could' have been the organizing body of the slaves, it sounds more like the official powers that be, and I doubt slaves would report their rebellion to the task masters.

Were the Uranos themselves task masters? Were they facing an uprising?

Personally, I think they were trying to conquer someone and use them as slaves. I'm bored of writing, so I'm gonna stop.

Oh, and another idea I had. Maybe the Uranos were rather slow with their experiment because they had to run the data through a variety of scenarios. What if they had to number crunch to make sure their weapons could work on different worlds. I mean, giving them unit-g was an after thought. I think we can assume that the zoanoid was meant to be an all in one system

[*BananaKing]

You know YG, you're now gonna get sucked into this debate. You'll turn into one of them, its like a zombie infection, and you're gonna make it spread!

[*zeo]

A)"burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: So it is perfectly valid to point out to you that you are suggesting something that is not what is being shown and thus the burdern of proof is on you to prove your theory is correct and that the obvious direct interpretation is wrong. Sorry but you can't disallow it just because it sinks your argument and I have provided direct quotes, like "letting nature take its course" and examples throughout the Manga. You just chose to ignore them!

So don't be disingenuis and actually consider all the evidence and not just defend your opinion by dismissing evidence that doesn't support your claim.

B)I was part of a debates on the Asteroid size, there was nothing arrogant about my correcting a misassumption based on incomplete objective considerations, which is why I had access to the image used to argue for that size. And Pluto is no longer classed as a planet and is much smaller than Mars or Mercury. If you don't know how big these objects are then just say so and not just grab a random name and say compare it to that!

What you didn't get is that we also compared the size to the moon, which is 3475 km wide. The asteroid is even bigger! The Earth is 7926 miles across.

Mars is 6794 Km across, while Mercury is 4878 km and Pluto is 2390 km.

If the circumferance comparison gives us a Mars size Asteroid, you don't go to less than half and say it's Pluto size when you compensate for depth perception.

Never mind you tried to put words into my mouth that I simply did not say by willy nilly replacing what I did compare it to to something else.

C)This doesn't mean they could create one from scratch without having developed one first! Really that's like saying a saveman could just whip up a modern car without going through all the intermediate time of technology development needed before they knew how to create a car.

Sorry, but you forgot the Creators had Billion of years to create a very large data base on different life forms and the zoaforming process allows them to mix and match all they want for different combinations and properties.

Never mind it clearly says they processed that T-Rex just like they do zoanoids.

And no, I'm not just assuming, I'm logically concluding from common sense what they meant since they also combined the comment with the visual aid of the biologica time line.

What you apparently didn't get from the Meteor Mass extinction was the fact the Creators were altering evolution through the environment and not direct genetic manipulation.

If they were taking a direct hand in the evolution and not simply guiding it then they could have simply caused the dinosaurs to die off naturally, but instead they smashed a big freaking rock into the planet, causing massive devastation, and thus instead made it impossible for the dinosaurs to survive.

The problem is this completely blows your theory out of water because manipulating evolution through environmental changes takes time, especially on a planetary scale.

Even if they could rapidly alter the weather, life itself would have taken eons to evolve through that system.

You are also failing to realize the Creators did not start out knowing what they wanted to create, they let nature create it for them. They just controled the conditions so what came out was close to what they wanted.

So they would have gone through many variable before they got even anywhere near a human being. Again, all of that would have taken time and could not be accelerated.

The point of the story is also that despite the tampering the People of that Earth could still believe the same things of their history as we do, so we could put ourselves in their shoes and imagine what it would be like, which is part of Takaya's story telling process.

D)Hello, the ship is a Relic with knowledge from the Creators, we also have the memory of Archanfel when the Creators told him they were going to build those ships!!!

E)Try understanding what was said, they said the dinosaurs would have problems with the atmosphere sustaining them. Now what is in atmosphere that sustains us? Oh, right oxygen. Again another example of Takaya refering to actual history since the oxygen levels of the planet were higher back in the time of the dinosaurs.

F)Because they didn't know what they wanted to create, they had to go through the process of evolution before something turned out they could use. Remember they clearly said they were developing dinosaur for weapons but ultimately decided they weren't adaptable enough and too dumb. Things they couldn't know without thoroughly testing them out, never mind leaving their remains all over the planet to show how wide spread that branch of the project had been.

G)What is lost is the fact that Takaya created the Guyver world around our world, it's the whole point to the story that we could believe this could happen with just a reasonable suspension of belief.

It's why the story is so engrossing and interests so many different people. And Takaya never changed the geological time frame, and consistently showed the Creators arriving back when the conditions of life were just about to begin.

Never mind 3.3 Billion years is still an extremely long period of time, you're only shaving 700 million years off 4 Billion.

H)It's not just because the technology is already laid out for them, it's because they have the room, resources, and the need for those advancements. Unlike more developed nations they aren't burdened by all that came before. They don't have to replace old tech if nothing is there to replace, everything can be new.

But as these nations develop they become burdened just like the already developed nations and their advancement will slow down in the future.

Again it breaks down to conservation of energy, it's a lot easier to keep something old going than to constantly replace it with something new.

Other examples, the Katrina disaster could have been a lot less if they had just updated the system used to control flooding. They had known about the problem for over 40 years but did nothing until disaster hit.

In comparison to the Creators, they would be like the developed nations, they can still make advancements but because of their sheer size, galaxy spanning empire, and age it would be harder for them to empliment changes.

Take something like Aerol Gel, a super light and super insulating material invented back in 1931 and only now is finding applications. Such materials have been used in Europe for decades now but the US is only now starting to use it.

I)You also probably never seen a UFO, big foot, Lock Ness, sub atomic particles, another planet outside our solar system, etc.

The point being the story is just close enough to be believable with a slight suspension of belief. Just like People can believe in UFO's, etc. which is what I meant by suspension of belief.

J)The Guyver universe follows ours, never mind the Creators didn't create the planet, only manipulated life on it. I'm not assuming when the planet was ready to sustain life, it is a known factor that scientists agree on. So we know that the Creators couldn't have started to nearly 4 Billion years ago.

The only thing Takaya changed was what caused life to evolve and what influenced its evolution.

K)Again, if it took them nearly 4 Billion years to create humans then they obviously weren't in any life or death situations. You are only assuming they were at war because they were developing weapons. But no matter how you look at it they took their sweet time to do it and that shows slow progress.

L)No, they had access to Creator knowledge. Like I said, like a cheat sheet, which is completely different from having to invent and create the technology from scratch. They also had scientist on staff that were just human and short lived like the rest of us.

M)I never said they didn't have any progress, just that it would be slow. The fact is they took an extremely long time and were not rushing to get humans to the front lines. Even after creating Archanfel they only planned on taking everyone to another planet for the next phase of experiments.

This is no different than us developing new weapons even if we never use them. They didn't need to be at war to want to develop weapons!

And we don't just see the Creators in one time period, we see them in two, when they arrived and when they created humans, giving us a time frame of how long they had been here.

We aren't shown them either leaving or arriving in between so there is nothing to suggest the Creators that landed are any different from the Creators that left.

And again, I NEVER SAID THEY WERE ALWAYS LONG LIVED.

You are totally misinterpreting things when you say things like that.

Of course they evolved rapidly, it doesn't change what they were when they landed.

Did you not read my Ape to Human comparison?

Do you not understand we are now different? That you can't use how we are now and assume we were always as we are now!

They didn't always have the technology they had when they arrived on Earth, but what they are now and what they have done shows there present progress is slow.

Of course things could have changed since then but from what we know it wouldn't seem likely.

So sorry but your argument doesn't work and though some of the things you have supposed are possible, it doesn't fit with what we are shown.

[Jukai]

Point A:

Burden of proof on you:

Where to the uranos say anything about "letting nature take its course?"

No quote exists.

YOU have just added new information. Burden of proof on YOU sir...

And to answer your "burden of proof" question

we actually do have a suggestion that the Relics changed over time. when the relics were first drawn descending to Earth, they were drawn as kind of a mushroom shape. Or at least they were 'flatter' on the bottom. Later, they were drawn in more of an egg shape. This could be interpreted as developing style of Takaya, or the Uranos advanced. Take your pick, it's open to debate.

I'm sure you'll ignore this like the majority of my points.

And I told you to stop using that term cause you have said things without any shred of storyline evidence quite a lot during the arguement. Saying the Advent could have evolved much quicker with a Guyver unit... saying Alcanphel got up and walked around before Balcus got to him... you do it a lot too. We all make assumptions (key word here). The point, STILL, of my arguements is that all you're clammering at here are assumptions, and that you could be wrong and others could possibly be right.

Point B)

What actually happened: someone said the asteroid was much bigger than the moon, closer to Mars. You chimed in and said it was closer to Mercury. I questioned you, you answered, I didn't understand HOW you determined your measurements, but from the picture, you claimed the asteroid was 1,800 Kilometers in diameter. If this is the case, the meteor is closer to Pluto. And Pluto is a Dwarf Planet.

I don't understand why you keep chiming in about the angle of impact, nor do I understand why you keep talking about dividing its size in half. I'm sure you can take time out of your busy schedule to explain this to me.

Point C)

No, it's not saying a caveman could whip up a car in a scratch. If the Creators can WHIP UP a T-Rex from nothing, LOGIC dictates they have enough technology to put it together through guess work. Logic also dictates that if the Creators can WHIP UP a T-Rex from nothing, they have the ability to speed up the enviroment and alter the creatures living on the planet. This can be done not just through altering their envoriment, but flooding it with viruses/proteins/nanomachines/whatever into the air, or picking up and altering creatures and putting them back into the area to breed, they could bombard them with different radiation... anything!

it's not also completely out of the realm of possibility (this is a hard term for you, I know) that they picked up the majority of the race to alter them because they had pretty much turned the entire human race into Zoanoids.

You end your arguement by saying the human beings in the comic COULD believe the same things as we do... but you're missing my point. I'm sure they DO believe the same things as we do. I'm saying the People in the comic could be mislead completely.

Here are the quotes, in the book, that make me believe that there was more of an aggressive approach at developing life:

"we have been manipulating this planet's ecosystem ever since in order to create beings like you"

Book 14, page 78

"to attain the desired qualities, (the dinosaurs) dimensions had been increased further, but they failed to overcome the problem of intelligence and adaptation..."

"in short, we develoepd some multi-purpose bodies to create superior combatants, and we decided to process various biological weapons to attain the requirements!"

book 14, page 82

"we have ceased (the dinosaurs) production because of atmospheric incompatibility"

book 15, 08

Yes, I can understand where you are coming from. But you're still assuming, just like I'm assuming. You're claiming you have logic on your side by deciphering as many quotes as I have deciphered and by looking at two pictures of life spiralling from simple to human... that's not logic dude. It's way too weak to be logic.

You add in a lot of worthless details in your arguements. Who cares that they processed the T-Rex. What does that have to do with anything?

Point D:

The Creators did not bestow any knowledge of the Relic ships to Alchanphel. If they did, I'd say Chronos would have fleets of them by now.

"Burden of proof," ya know?

Point E:

No, he's not referring to history really. The exact passage is dealing with atmosphere, and has nothing to do with oxygen. It's a no brainer the atmophere was different back in the days of the dnosaur, I hope you're not taking that as "proof" Takaya wants us to believe this is just like the real world the same way you tried to convince me by informing me he was using cities like "Tokyo" and "New York."

Point F:

Actually they had a perfect idea of what they wanted to create, Zeo. It is not a stretch to think they would modify a creature on the planet and watch him for a couple of million years then scrap it when it doesn't turn out the way they want it to turn out.

Point G:

I find it funny you keep using "reasonable suspension of belief." I'm sorry, but I can't reasonably believe anything in this comic could ever happen. That wasn't the American president OR the Japanese prime minister they showed in book 9. Why not use real-life political figures if the time-frame is so important for your ability to grasp the story without making it feel "too fake" for you.

Takaya ONLY wanted to give the comic a feel that this entire thing could be happening around us... that the Guyvers could exist, that Chronos could secretly be conquering the world, that everything we know is wrong. If the Uranos shaved off two or so billion years creating the Earth, as long as the scientists in the Guyver-world still believed that the earth is 3.3 billion years old, well, all is well.

Also, there's no such thing as Mount Minakami.

Point H:

It is MOSTLY because the technology is already laid out for them, good sir. This is a well documented fact.

Now, you seem to have shifted the arguement towards the NEEDS of a nation. Yes, if a nation does not "need" anything, it will slow down it's production. This has nothing to do with developed nations vs undeveloped nations. A developed nation (Iraq) was developing a lot faster than its undeveloped neighbor (Iran) during the 1990s because it felt the need to become more industrialized to compete with the western worlds, while Iran thought it should be true to its customs and use very little western technology. To Iran, they had everything they needed without advancing (how I wish that were still the case).

Are you saying over the last five years, Zimbabwe and Uganda and Togo have advanced more than the United States? I'm going to 100% give you a no here. Most developing nations don't have these Resources you're talking about. If you take a nation with all farm, no technology, and compare it to a nation of all technology, that technological nation is going to advance faster. They not only have more tools and more know-how, but because they can produce things faster, they can also work on many breakthroughs at once.

We also seem to differ on the term "advancement." If that farm nation discovers the secrets of irrigation, and the technological nation creates a new supercomputer that is twice as fast as the old ones, who is advancing more?

I'm not sure why you added anything about the Aerol Gel.

Point I:

.... you're claiming that your father being genetically tampered and turning into a purple werewolf is inside the realm of believability to you? You kidding me? I'm watching Guyver because it is OUTSIDE the possible realm of believability for me. I know this drenn wont happen to me in real life. EVER. That's why I watch it.

Point J:

You know, the least you could do is admit you're wrong. I mean, I know I don't do it, but you could say "yeah, good rebuttal on my assumption that humans have lost technology. You are right that because of our storage methods of data today, it is very hard to completely lose a skillset or a part of technology."

Also, I know scientists agree that the earth is 4.54 billion years old (actually, I didn't know until I looked. I have no idea how outdated my info was, but at a time, Scientists believed the earth was below 4 billion years old. Just noting that). I know that probably in the Guyver world, scientists believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old.

Scientists probably didn't think Zoanoids existed until they took over the world. So, likewise, Scientists could be a little off on their measurements of when life took place on earth. If the Uranos really did alter life, sped things up, changed around things... they could make it LOOK to scientists like the earth and creatures are much older than they are. After all, where is that dinosaur carcus that Guyver 0 killed, the one that is only a few million years old!

I mean, do you still not understand what i'm saying? I've tried to explain this point several times already.

Point K:

Wasn't ten pages of your counter-arguements rants about how because the Advent were so ancient, millions of years to us were like minutes to them? War doesn't correlate into your assumptions sir?

Don't think it doesn't urk me a bit that you're still answering this question with the mindset that earth is 4 billion years old.

Point L:

So you're saying one of the reasons Chronos wanted to invent this stuff as fast as possible was because they had staff that had a finite age limit?

Didn't I suggest that the Advent may be made up of short lived races along with the ultra long lived ones, and that might spur growth on their side?

Just to tell you, I know I did suggest that, I'm just phrasing it in a sorta dickish way.

Point M:

See, now if I were arguing with you, the fact that you never said they weren't always long lived would be fine. However, if you were arguing with yourself, you'd hear yourself screaming "BURDEN OF PROOF" at the top of his lungs. Because you have no proof that says the Advent haven't lived for 8 billion years, the fact that, to you, they have lived 4 billion years means they must have always lived like that. Funny how that drenn gets back to you, huh? Weren't you the one talking about things not fitting as shown?

To evolve incredibly fast, into a race that lives 5 billion years and barely evolves, makes no sense. It's actually FAR FAR FAR more feasible that the Advent have technology that can prolong their lives to near infinity. I wouldn't mind that assumption, had you said it to me. However, to you, that involves adding a few details that weren't necessarily given, and that's a big "no no" in your books.

It's sort of batshit to ignore the possibility that the Advent could have left and returned to earth inbetween all their experiments, changing their staff, gathering supplies, informing their leaders of their progress. I'm not saying evryone got up and left, I'm saying a few ships every couple of hundred years. The fact that you refuse to think of this as a logical theory because it isn't shown in the Manga is pretty ridiculous.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Jukai

[Super Existence]

The advents use a stasis field on Guyver units to preserve them.

Why not on themselves.

The books made out that dinosaurs were a mistake as they didn't develop in the way they'd hope so they demolished the experiment with a meteor.

This gives the impression that they waited for the millions of years for the dinosaurs to play to see what would happen but they proved a genetic dead end.

What if they use a similar stasis field on themselves as the G-unit. They set an experiment in motion, put themselves into stasis, then thousands or millions of years later come out of stasis to see the results.

Any intelligent life form even ones as potentially long-lived as the advents would surely suffer from mental stagnation just sat waiting over the eons for experiments to play out.

A form of stasis makes their long lived capabilities a moot point.

[*zeo]

The use of stasis fields is a reasonable possibility, though if that was the case then it would further give reason why there advancement would be slow. Since they can't do anything while in stasis.

Point A:

Burden of proof on you:

Where to the uranos say anything about "letting nature take its course?"

No quote exists.

It says it right where the Creators are explaining the history behind how he and the human race were developed.

Sorry, it's an actual quote!!!

And I'm not the one coming up with a theory that doesn't look at the evidence in the Manga. You just want to ignore the things that disagree with you or at least that's the impression you are giving me.

I'm the one pointing to actual examples in the Manga, books 4, 7, 14, and 15 for example, not you. So how can you complain I'm not providing proof when I am?

Saying the Advent could have evolved much quicker with a Guyver unit...

Where did I say that?

Nope, never said that which means you either skipping over what I did say or simply refusing to properly process what I say because you might actually have to change your opinion then.

I said once they created the Guyver Unit is probably when they started to have long life spans, or as SE said they could have started putting themselves in stasis, either way the Earth experiment took them a long time to complete.

You erroneously took the idea that they are now long lived and slow advancing to mean they were always that way.

Never mind all my examples show that my argument is for more advance societies to become slower, but when they started they would have been a lot faster.

Especially my comparison to humans, showing your assumption would be the same as using how humans are now to say they were always like that when the fact is we evolved and were once very different from what we are now.

Similarly the Creators would have been very different in their origin but since the time they came to Earth we are shown little to no change other than the experiment itself.

Something you are ignoring in order to cling to your theory that they could have rapidly advanced in the last 10 thousand years when the pattern shown does not follow that.

This doesn't mean the pattern stayed the same but we aren't given any other references to their culture and so we only have the Earth experiment to base the conclusion on but given that the logical conclusion is there advancement would be slow, at least compared to us.

I could be wrong, there are unknown factors, but I'm only following the logical conclusion from what is shown and pointing out what is known doesn't support your theory.

What actually happened: someone said the asteroid was much bigger than the moon, closer to Mars. You chimed in and said it was closer to Mercury. I questioned you, you answered, I didn't understand HOW you determined your measurements, but from the picture, you claimed the asteroid was 1,800 Kilometers in diameter. If this is the case, the meteor is closer to Pluto. And Pluto is a Dwarf Planet.

They changed the classification recently, and as I stated I was part of the debate on determining the size of the Asteroid, the claim was for a Mars size in the debate and that was what was quoted. I didn't make the image of the size comparison, so it may be labeled wrong but I did do a comparison with the moon and verified the math and yes it would be Mars size if you only consider the circumference and not the depth perception.

The Asteroid however isn't a great distance from the Earth so the size difference is only about a few thousand miles at most. Thus the correction to Mercury size which is close to Mars size, while Pluto is closer to the size of the moon.

No, it's not saying a caveman could whip up a car in a scratch. If the Creators can WHIP UP a T-Rex from nothing, LOGIC dictates they have enough technology to put it together through guess work.

No, because a T-Rex is a complex life form. It simply means they have a huge data base to draw from but that took time to develop. Otherwise they would have gone straight to humans from the beginning.

Also, when you are trying to get something from evolution it is generally the rule to interfere as little as possible other than guiding the general course it is taking.

Never mind the quote specifically says they manipulated the ecosystem!!! Ecosystem is the environment!!! Yet somehow you jump from that to direct bio-engineering?

Yeah sure, believe the incredibly sloppy and best way to mess up an experiment that most definitely doesn't limit itself to the ecosystem to be the likely possibility.

Yes, I can understand where you are coming from. But you're still assuming, just like I'm assuming. You're claiming you have logic on your side by deciphering as many quotes as I have deciphered and by looking at two pictures of life spiralling from simple to human... that's not logic dude. It's way too weak to be logic.

No, your reasoning is not logical. You are drawing a conclusion opposite to what is shown, which is not logical. It's guessing and drawing up conclusion simply on possibilities instead of likely probabilities!

A lot of things are possible, you can suddunly quantum tunnel to the otherside of the planet according to quantum physics. It'll just take a time period longer than the predicted lifespan of the universe for it to happen.

Doesn't mean it will happen and doesn't mean you can say that is a strong possibility. Course your theory isn't that far off of a possibility but it still goes against everything that is being shown.

You add in a lot of worthless details in your arguements. Who cares that they processed the T-Rex. What does that have to do with anything?

Everything if you just thought about it. They couldn't do that without developing a data base of biological designs.

But data bases don't build themselves, it takes time and research to create data bases and they would need an extensive one to zoaform. Especially to create something as advance as Archanfel, which they said was the result of the culmination of all their research.

The point of the zoaform also dismisses your argument that they just whipped up one when the fact is they took an older design that had naturally evolved and simply recreated it.

It's the same as us taking the design to an old WWII tank and building a new one that looks the same but has modern technology in it. It doesn't change the fact it took a lot of technological evolution to create the original tank and doesn't mean we could always have whipped one up. It only means we had developed it and can create it again if we wanted to.

As to actual People in our society, they did make references to actual People but the fact is the story isn't set in a specific time. Remember Takaya started it in the mid 80's and according to the Manga only a few years have passed but it has been over 20 years for us.

So exactly who would you have him present in the Manga that wouldn't nail the time period and force him to account for all the time that has passed?

And if you can't suspend belief, even for a moment, then you probably don't have much of an imagination, no insult intended just an observation because that is part of the point of enjoying reading such things as the Guyver Manga in the first place.

If you can't get into the story then you can't fully enjoy it, this is true of any good story.

Really, it's like enjoying watching the X-Files, it may be wild and far fetched but is based with a grain of truth using real world examples to make it so you don't immediately recognize it for fiction without thinking about it for more than a second. Course some episodes were less believable than others but you get my point.

You want total fantasy then don't watch or read something that even remotely classified as a sci-fi then.

Takaya uses names from history, he uses actual locations to show what is happening. The battles in Japan can even be placed side by side actual photos of Japan and you will see the same buildings in the same locations as shown in the Manga. Showing an attention to detail that simply can't be dismissed.

If Takaya is vague, it is on purpose and to not distract from the story. But when he does use things, like showing primordial Earth, it's for the definite purpose of showing us how the story would fit into our own understanding of the world and its history.

He didn't create a universe in which the Creators came to Earth and just created humans. He created a story that blends in with our own world history and twists them around to create a different origin in which aliens not only visited Earth but were responsible for our existence.

Like how he uses zoanoids to explain all the legends of shapeshifters throughout human history, like werewolves, etc. Again showing how he tries to integrate his story into our own world and to explain things we would otherwise dismiss as just myths and legends.

In the X-Day issue, the Navy ships were given names of actual ships. Just some like the Carrier had recently been decommissioned at the time and thus could be written about being destroyed without any real world repurcussions.

On point E, fact is the atmosphere during the dinosaur era was much more oxygenated than when humans showed up. It's one of the reasons they grew so big!!!

But they changed the whole planet when they killed off the dinosaurs and that includes the atmospheric percentages of oxygen, which was probably one of the reasons they used a meteor to do it since it killed both the dinosaurs and a lot of the planet life.

Which is why they said the T-Rex was discontinued and wasn't compatable with the present atmosphere.

Lowering the oxygen level also ensures the remaining life forms wouldn't also grow to massive proportions, which suited the Creators admitted change in goals to get what eventually becomes human beings.

All of which shows Takaya was following a logical progression in describing what the Creators were doing and why.

We also seem to differ on the term "advancement." If that farm nation discovers the secrets of irrigation, and the technological nation creates a new supercomputer that is twice as fast as the old ones, who is advancing more?

Simple, look at countries like South Korea. Before the Korean War it was mostly farmers and such, but now they have industry and are even competing with Japan.

Companies like Samsung, Kia, etc are now known around the world.

Showing a level of advancement that was far faster than say the US.

The US doesn't have Maglev trains, it doesn't even have bullet trains. Many of our hospitals were build up to a century ago and are still in use.

The NYC subway is just one example, other places in the world like France sewer systems is centuries old. Even New York City's systems date back over a century.

The only places you see anything really new is places that had been destroyed for one reason or another.

Simply put People don't replace things just because there are better things now, especially if it will cost money to do so. Like replacing a bridge even though it had been build up to a century ago and doesn't do well with modern traffic conditions.

The Aerol Gel demonstrates how something that has a clear advantage and would revolutionize the market of insulation with a material nearly as light as air but can withstand extreme heat of over 600 degrees doesn't immediately get adopted by developed nations that already invested in tried and true technology that works but is far older tech and far less efficient.

Yes computers are advancing quite rapidly but it is practically the only US industry that still is developing rapidly. Not to mention many of the factories aren't in the US but third world nations so how much can actually be credited to the US versus just taking advantage of developing nations? Never mind how many scientist working in the field were born American?

Like when you call for tech support, are you talking to an American or someone in India who just mimics a US accent?

When was the last time NASA sent a mission to the Moon? Has space technology rapidly developed in the last 50 years or stagnated and limited itself to research?

Course progress hasn't stopped, but not everything is moving at an Accelerated rate of development like you said it was.

Take for example an idealized vision of the future like Minority Report, minus the justice system of course it depicts that in just a few decades we would have cars driving up the side of building along with many other revolutionary tech.

The thing is tech wise it may be all true but to implement that vision would require the entire present system, roads, building designs, etc to all be updated and that would cost so much we won't actually get that level of technology for close to a century from now instead of just a few decades as the movie predicts.

This is the difference from what is possible to what is practical.

Every factor I mentioned that would slow progress of the Creators are valid and present in what we are shown in the Manga. So unless the Creators made some changes to how they did things and diversified more, and like you admitted they already have very advance technology that would be hard to top. All means it is likely there advancement is slow compared to our own.

I:Enjoying the fantasy aspect is one thing but the fact remains the story does draw upon real world elements to make the story more believable. Just with a fantasy element added as otherwise Takaya might as well have placed the story on another planet and not bothered with any human history comparisons. Again, imaginations to place ourselves in the story is the primary point.

Otherwise Sho could have been like Luke in Star Wars and grown up on an alien world.

Fact is we have a history filled with myth and legends and Takaya just used it to give his story a little bit more believability. Like nay sayers would ask why we have never seen or heard any evidense of zoanoids for example. Takaya gave an answer by saying all the myths and legends were based on zoanoids.

He basically filled any holes in the story that way and made it all the easier to fantasize about the story he was creating.

Btw, it doesn't matter that it irks you that the Earth is over 4 Billion years old. Because the Earth is over 4 Billion years old.

What are you, a creationist who believes the Earth was created in 7 days or something?

Sure, let's ignore all scientific evidence that says otherwise and just go with your theory. Is this really what you want us to do?

We got carbon dating, we got magnetic layers (since Earth's magnetic field flips every few million years).

We also got continental drift, which is a process still going on and can be measured.

Silha island in the Manga was created by continential drift, do you have the slightest clue how long that takes? Hint, a lot longer than 10's of thousands of years.

Never mind our time line of biological evolution is also backed by continental drift as species got segregated onto different land masses.

Here's a website with an animated globe that shows how the land masses has shifted position since the time period that the Creators arrived to now.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/geology/anim1.html

Besides technically speaking the Earth is 4.5 Billion years old. It just took about 500 million for the Earth to cool down enough for water, etc to be in place so the materials to form life were available.

Another Billion years more before anything complex formed, etc. It was a long process.

We also have Earth rocks which we have definitely analyzed to be 3.8 Billion years old, while we also have meteorites up to 4.5 million years ago giving us a time scale between the time solid material formed in our system and when the Earth had cooled enough to support water, etc.

There is also the fact we have fossils of primitive life forms in rock we know are up to 2.5 Billion years old.

So the time frame isn't an assumption. At least for when the Creators landed and the establishment of the building blocks of life as we know it as the atmosphere was oxygenated and the temperature became moderate enough to support life. So the Creators would have to have terraformed the planet just to set up shop. Not to mention they couldn't really accelerate the planet cooling, which along with the terraforming would have taken them at least a billion years before they could even have started evolving life forms more complex than bacteria.

It's sort of batshit to ignore the possibility that the Advent could have left and returned to earth inbetween all their experiments, changing their staff, gathering supplies, informing their leaders of their progress. I'm not saying evryone got up and left, I'm saying a few ships every couple of hundred years. The fact that you refuse to think of this as a logical theory because it isn't shown in the Manga is pretty ridiculous.

No, just logical observation.

We for example know the Creators contacted their superiors back home because that is what they told Archanfel, who would most definitely have noticed if any ships left Earth or arrived. The fact he didn't and they got an answers means they didn't need to leave to communicate with the rest of their people.

Second manipulating the ecosystem is a constant affair, especially on a planetary scale open to influences from random meteor strikes, solar flares, etc. They had to stay to monitor things and to gather information on their experiment.

Even with their technology they couldn't control things like we can say a petri-dish inside a well equiped labatory. And they did say they achieved their creation via manipulating the ecosystem, not the life directly.

SE's theory that they may have put themselves into stasis makes more sense as then they could be awakened in a moment's notice if anything called for their direct intervention. But also suffers the fact they wouldn't have anyone to keep records if they went into stasis.

We can also make note of the fauna that was growing on the Relics, indicating they had been there for a very long time.

We also have the fact the Relic at Relic's Point was beneath a mountain, something that could not happen without millions of years of time for the land mass to change that much, which along with Silha island being created by techtonic plate movement both showing the time the Creators left alone would have been a very long time ago, longer than what Barcus stated was Archanfel's nap time.

I could really go in depth to why I don't think your theory works but I'm not in the habit of doing the thinking for other People when what I already stated is more than sufficient.

Sure, we can entertain the possibilities but we should also keep in mind what is likely from what is only a possibility, not to mention the actual intent of Takaya and what aspects of the story he is telling us versus what we may think of these characters.

[*zeo]

Sorry YoungGuyver, I didn't notice your post before...

-Zeo, stop ignoring his point about third world nations taking the tech that others develop. He made a good point there. It would be good to counter it with an example that disprove it. Japan is an interesting case though. They had regular trains for quite a while, they have a HUGE population, and they replaced it all with mag levs and the like. Can we get some stats on that? Or should we bother?

I'm not ignoring that point, in fact it supports my argument... A fact I thought was obvious but apparently not.

To make it clear the 3rd World Nations comparison to 1st world Nations are like comparing Chronos to the Creators.

The point being to show how it is a lot easier to copy tech than to invent it and the more advance you get the harder it is to top it.

The less developed nations also like Chronos have more untapped resources, which is one of the reasons they advance so quickly. It cost them less and nothing is in their way so they can advance rapidly in the same time frame that a larger and more complex entity like the Creators would develop slowly.

I also pointed out examples like South Korea that most definitely has seen major advancements and are also pushing the envelop in producing new technology. Their robotics development for example is rivaling Japan's.

-we actually do have a suggestion that the Relics changed over time. when the relics were first drawn descending to Earth, they were drawn as kind of a mushroom shape. Or at least they were 'flatter' on the bottom. Later, they were drawn in more of an egg shape. This could be interpreted as developing style of Takaya, or the Uranos advanced. Take your pick, it's open to debate.

G2 also looked like G1 at one time, those early images of the Relics are also less detailed.

But the fact the later images references the exact same time, of the Creators arrival on Earth, then we can safely say Takaya just improved his drawing style. Just like he changed G2's appearance.

-Define evolution. Shall we use a more liberal, poetic interpretation? If the Uranos said they made the dinosaurs bigger, I think we have to give them at least a few liberties. What about Waferdonas? I'd have to read the translation again, but wasn't he made to terraform Earth a little? Or at least as a part of a terraforming project that was abandoned? Genetic engineering HAD to be involved with his development.

I addressed this, the Creators specifically stated they developed their creations by manipulating the eco-system. Ergo the environment!

Since evolution is partly adapting to one's environment as well as developing into more complex life forms means all they had to do to make dinosaurs bigger was adjust the environment to promote larger growth.

For example the Paleozoic era was so high in oxygen that bugs, who have to breath through their skin and don't have lungs, grew to fairly large sizes that would be unheard of today. The concentration of oxygen was so high that a typical forest ran the danger of literally exploding into fire during a lightning storm.

But that would make the atmosphere incompatable for the time period man shows up since the oxygen levels were much like they are now and far lower, making it very hard to support such massive bodies.

Waferdanos was one of the later experiments that they abandoned and was for terraforming other planets, which either means war wasn't the only purpose in the project or that making the battle field compatable for their living weapons was one of their side projects.

-If the Uranos were at war, that would be MOTIVATION to develop weapons quickly. I think Jukai tried to make that point earlier. But being long lived is no excuse in that case for developing slowly. Urgency would be a factor in many types of war, which leads into my next point/topic

Which is part of my point, they weren't in any rush when developing their bio-weapons. We only assume they were at war but they could just have been the equivalent of a gun company making a new gun. They knew they would eventually need it but they had plenty of time to develop it.

Most of our own weapon's development is during peace time for example, we develop weapons for when we will eventually need them. Not just because we need them.

And I believe I addressed this point in my arguments, but like the point with the 3rd world nations it may not be as clear as I thought it was.

-I'm really curious about the type of war the Uranos wanted us to fight. Always have been. Why did the Creators want to develop foot soldiers? Aren't foot soldiers rather primitive? We ourselves are developing weapons that destroy the enemy from a distance. Bombs and the like. Or why not diseases? What kind of enemy were they fighting? The Uranos clearly demonstrated the ability to cause MASS EXTINCTIONS, so why the foot soldiers? Why zoanoids?

They wanted loyal soldiers, able to adapt to any battle conditions. -That much we can clearly gather from what they told Archanfel about the motivation behind the experiment.

The flexible part could indicate they didn't want them for a particular war but just wars in general. Such an army could be used as an effective peace keeper force or just wipe out a less advance world so the Creators could move in and take its resources.

The zoaforming process also meant they could be adapted to any type of warfare and not just the physical type.

Aptom for example is an indication they could have developed other types that could have acted like a sentient disease for example. The potential was there in any case.

But the telling thing to me was the fact they weren't going to take humanity to war but just to another planet so they can run more experiments. Even with their weapons they were still going to do more experiments, which is more the behavior of weapon smiths perfecting a weapon to be sold to the market rather than scientists developing weapons for an eminent war.

Personally, I think they were trying to conquer someone and use them as slaves.

That is a possibility, they could have been for example preparing to expand the empire and needed something to do the dirty work that such expansion would eventually entail.

Oh, and another idea I had. Maybe the Uranos were rather slow with their experiment because they had to run the data through a variety of scenarios. What if they had to number crunch to make sure their weapons could work on different worlds. I mean, giving them unit-g was an after thought. I think we can assume that the zoanoid was meant to be an all in one system

I think that is a safe assumption and research was a big part of their experiment and one of the points I mentioned was that would take a lot of time, especially with so many types of life forms to work with.

[*BananaKing]

Zoe, I don't know hwo you do it, but you always write way too much for me to read, no offense but I never read your posts, and if I do, then I don't go past 2 paragraphs. I have a really short attention span.

[*YoungGuyver]

Sorry:

Also, there's no such thing as Mount Minakami.

But I just have to correct you on that. It's real. Mt Mina Kami (remember the space when usig the real world version, this isn't a fan translation) Was one of a few mountains that the Emperor of Japan used as a refuge during world war 2. Or at least he had teams digging in the rock to build bunkers. Mina Kami is one of the lesser known. There are hot spring resorts in the group of mountains in modern times. I found it a while back while trying to research it. Not much on the pyramid theories though, not that I can find. I'll just have to take Takaya's word on that one.

Yeah, I like that stasis theory. It's pretty good. I like it a lot.

And Zeo, he did make a good point with his third world developing things. He showed that it is not all dependent on one factor. Those third world nations that YOU point out being given the actual jobs of building the tech, you left something out. They were given the jobs due to cheap labor. Companies in the first world go over to the third world and hire out. Economics is a factor there. That doesn't mean THEY are advancing, it means they are being used for the benefits of others. Like ants farming the aphids. I wouldn't call an aphid an ant. (sorry, I know that analogy is a stretch for the direct symbolism, but its making a skewed point)

Sigh. Do we really have to argue the size of the asteroid? It was really big, that's all that matters. It's like saying you got shot with a AGM Maverick missile vrs a Taurus KEPD 350. Either way, you probebly wont live if it hits you. No sense in really debating the EXACT size. It's close enough to still be devastating. It's all in the same ballpark. Get the point?!?!?! Do we really need another exercise in futility here?

And yes Zeo, I know the Relic drawing were open to artistic interpretation. But that's the point, it is open to interpretation. But at the same time, it could equally be counted as evidence. None of us here have the authority to dictate which is it. So we MUST keep an open mind on that. In the end, no matter what 'logic' we try and involve for that point, it would boil down to personal opinion.

[*zeo]

Zoe, I don't know hwo you do it, but you always write way too much for me to read, no offense but I never read your posts, and if I do, then I don't go past 2 paragraphs. I have a really short attention span.

The price of an over active mind I'm afraid, but unfortunately all that was the abbreviated version. Now it seems I must go into more of the finer details... case in point...

And Zeo, he did make a good point with his third world developing things. He showed that it is not all dependent on one factor. Those third world nations that YOU point out being given the actual jobs of building the tech, you left something out. They were given the jobs due to cheap labor. Companies in the first world go over to the third world and hire out. Economics is a factor there. That doesn't mean THEY are advancing, it means they are being used for the benefits of others. Like ants farming the aphids. I wouldn't call an aphid an ant. (sorry, I know that analogy is a stretch for the direct symbolism, but its making a skewed point)

Again, I included that it is easier for third world nations, which includes cost of labor. Never mind the 3rd world thing was really my point, and I didn't leave anything out. I may not have worded it in simple enough terms but even cost of labor was included in my analysis.

Never mind it all only helps my argument since without a 3rd world nation the 1st world nation wouldn't have access to cheap labor and the higher cost of production would slow them down.

Really, this should be obvious. We all know the differences between 3rd and 1st world nations, do I have to explain every aspect of them just to get my point across?

Like it should be obvious that the 3rd world nation benefit by having access to more advance technology and the Resources of the 1st world nation, which in turn speeds up their advancement (we are comparing speeds of advancements) while the 1st world nation may benefit by cheaper labor but their advancement slows down as jobs becomes fewer and research and development are done elsewhere.

Eventually some nations like Japan and South Korea can not only match the first world nation but start to rival them.

While Chronos may be like the third world nation equivalent in terms of technology, they however had access to Creator technology while the Creators had no access to them. Giving them a lopsided advantage and the Creators no such advantage.

The Creators would thus progress like a 1st world nation with no 3rd world nations to support its economy and development... Clear enough or do I have to go into the details of economic theories vs technological advancement patterns over time?

The whole they may live extremely long and/or uses stasis to time skip, along with how hard it would be to further advance their already advance technology, factors would just makes there rate of progress even slower, giving us an accumulative effect more than a little lopsided in Chronos's favor.

And the whole point that I list things is to show there are many factors but that the pattern of them all add up to supporting my argument and not his.

[Jukai]

Point A:

Good debating skill, claiming I haven't done something I did throughout the previous post, dur hur.

You didn't even address the quotes I gave you.

And you still haven't shown me where your quote is, you're just claiming it exists

Also, it's a great debate skill where you talk about "burden of proof" and you agree with Super Existance on stasis fields, which is a complete and absolute assumption with no proof ot the novel. Lame.

Also, what is necessarily known doesn't support your logic. No matter how many times you TELL me it does, it's not going to change the fact that you're completely guessing. Also, telling me you've given me proof when you haven't reallllly isn't a good debate skill either. A lot of the stuff you said was random and doesn't prove much.

Point B:

So, you didn't make that image, which said ON the image that the asteroid was pluto sized?

GOOD GOING MAN!!!!

I had thought you had created the image yourself. What the image did was count how many pixels there was from left to right on both the earth and the asteroid. Then, knowing the diameter of earth in real life, he figured out how many kilometers equals one pixel. Then, using multiplication, he figured out the asteroids size. Which was slightly larger than pluto.

Incase you couldnt' figure out what the image you had shown me said.

I like the image idea better than the "well it looks like Mars but it hit on an angle and depth perception so mercury" thing you're floundering about

Also, pluto is a dwarf planet. No matter how many times you tell me it's not, it is. I gave you the link so you could educate yourself.

Point C:

Oh... so they manipulated the ecosystem... like, let's say, altering it more than a meteor?

Also, they manipulating the genetic structure of humans so they could turn into werewolfs, which is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CREATURE, EVOLUTIONARY WISE, THAN A HUMAN BEING

stop using this odd scientific logic on me, you're forgetting that Khan can turn into a buggering awesome dragon by absorbing other human beings into his body. Can you scientifically explain THAT to me? Shouldn't evolution have taken part in that? Well... if you can't, then maybe the Creators can create a T-Rex!

I'm not saying they were able to guess work it, but if they do some mucking around, and see a smaller, more primordial dinosaur, couldn't they easily turn it into a bigger, badder version of itself? Wouldn't that cut down on evolution about 100,000 million years?

I know they could, but you're going to say "burden of proof" as you're talking about the Advent stopping their aging when they found their Guyver units (edit: I'm phrasing that simply, I know you're babbling about statis fields and some stuff)

Also, my reason is as logical as yours, you just think because you're using REAL WORLD SCIENCE instead of details left in the book that defy logic, you are more right than anyone else with an idea. Yet, you still forget the book is not based on science what-so-ever. Throw that idea away. Throw it out completely!

Also, that entire page on the T-Rex stuff you wrote is mostly irrelevant. You can do me a favor and cut down on that bulk so I can respond easier.

Okay, I'll throw this zinger out at you, I know you'll debate it but whatever..

What, if a dinosaur, as small as my thumb, that only took 200,000 million years to create was the "world war II" tank, and what if the T-Rex was the new modified awesome bad ass Iraeli sand stormer?

My "proof" is the fact that they were able to further genetically enhance the T-Rex. This makes perfect sense. I'm sure you'll argue otherwise.

Point D:

You skipped a buncha what I wrote. It's cool.

You also ignored a lot of my points.

the ADVANCEMENT THAT SOUTH KOREA HAD WAS BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY WAS ALREADY LAID OUT FOR THEM! They didn't have to recreate the wheel, or the engine, or the breaks or the anti-lock breaks or the air conditioning or the emissions or suspension or chassis... it was already made! Hell, Kia hasn't even had anything NEW or INVENTIVE in their cars, they're just compact.

This information was readily available to South Korea. That is why they have a far faster level of advancement.

The Japanese did not invent trains, and Japan as a nation was made BEFORE the US as a nation, so stupid point anyway

A lot of this stuff has absolutely nothing to do with any of your point... undeveloped nations wont even be working on space technology!

Those People in India who are in tech support, where do you think they went to college to get their education!

Your definition of 'advancement' is truly flawed.

But I'm assuming what you're really saying is that because developed nations have already laid down an infrastructure, undeveloped nations have an easier time laying down a more advanced infrastructure

but that doesn't mean they advance faster. If they had to relearn everything themselves, you'd see the US coming out with new computers and faster planes and space ships to mars while they were just learning about some sort of primordial sewage system

So your point is not only subjective but inherently wrong.

Point E:

Saying some things you want to believe need to be based on a scientific reason while saying others don't is a real asinine way to be.

You seem to be angry at religious People who believe differently than you. This could possibly be a reason why it's HEARSAY to think that the Creators rushed the evolution of earth

However, I do believe the earth was made from stardust and rock 4.5 billion years ago.

I just don't believe it in the context of the Guyver universe.

It could be one or two billion years. Maybe 100 million.

But with such vast technology, there's no reason to believe otherwise

I'm going to ignore pretty much everything else you said because you're bringing in real life irrelevant details to the arguement

Just because we have 2.5billion fossils of primative life form, doesn't mean our science in carbon dating could be wrong, in both REAL LIFE and the story.

In real life, we probably wont be too off, in the ball park of half a billion.

In the story, well, since I see aliens and dragons and blackholes, I'm going to say the difference could be much vaster

edit:

After reading a few more posts, I am want to go back to point D

Zeo is 100% right

he's just phrasing it in a really odd and confusing way

He doesn't mean that 1st world nations, as a universal constant, advance slower than third world nations

He was saying that on earth, because of cheaper labor, newfound techniques, greater technology, global trade, newly discovered resources, and a completely unlaid infrastructure, the 3rd world nation will advance MUCH faster than the fully developed nation

and he was comparing this situation to Chronos and the Advent (being third world and first world respectively) since Chronos has all the Resources that the Advent did

He didn't mean it was universally constant

I think...

Anyway, it is a very good and apt comparison, so ignore my point D

I'll leave this thread with an awesome quote that zeo didn't really address, but should be addressed anyway:

And yes Zeo, I know the Relic drawing were open to artistic interpretation. But that's the point, it is open to interpretation. But at the same time, it could equally be counted as evidence. None of us here have the authority to dictate which is it. So we MUST keep an open mind on that. In the end, no matter what 'logic' we try and involve for that point, it would boil down to personal opinion.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Jukai