Theories of female optimization

[*V Guyver]

It could matter when it comes to the Guyver though the Guyver OVA movie had a female guvyer on equal grounds with a male guyver... then again it was sho. A Guy who really couldn't put up much of a fight and was more likely to fight like steve urkel then a warrior (seriously, he pokes the eyes out of zoanoids at one point instead of simply outright killing them efficiently). So we don't really know for sure how equals would be in terms of skill. I think it applies to zoanoids too to some degree on how females effect zoaforming... come to mind I think I may have hit on an explanation for the lack of female zoaforms.

I remembered something about both the Guyver story and human Genetics. Human genetic trails can only be traced through direct male descendants. So if you want to track people who may have a genetic relation to someone who shared the same father 10,000 years ago, you'd need to test males to do so because females wouldn't have the genes.

Now when Zoanoids interbred with humans, the zoanoid bloodlines thinned to nearly extinction with only a few natural born zoanoids popping up occasionally through out history. Now, what if those few individuals capable of zoaforming are all males because they had direct male ancestors to those original zoanoids, meanwhile the females lacked that same set of genes. This could mean that only males were the most potent and easiest candidates to be zoaformed. Males with broken male lines could probably only have trace amounts and to be zoaformed, directs were more likely to be hyper zoanoid candidates, and others who've had too many female generations before a male child popped up may be some of the few who are incapable of be zoaformed. Meanwhile females tend to lack the needed material or are too difficult to zoaform in great numbers. Just a theory.

[*zeo]

Human genetic trails can only be traced through direct male descendants. So if you want to track people who may have a genetic relation to someone who shared the same father 10,000 years ago, you'd need to test males to do so because females wouldn't have the genes.

Uh, a bit misleading... Y Chromosome changes can be traced from father to son, so you can trace who was your great great great great great grand father but mitochondrial DNA can only be traced from female lineage and you need both for the complete picture of your family tree.

[*V Guyver]

not so, well according to the PBS genetic history oh humanity program a few years ago. The entire research managed to prove every single human race from every corner of the world that they were related by finding at least one person within each of them who's had an direct uninterrupted male heritage. This history went back tens of thousands of years. You don't need two peoples sets of DNA to prove your related to one person at one point. Maybe to complete a family tree, but not prove a common heritage as stated by the PBS hosted research they stated they couldn't do the same research with females at all.

I didn't realize about the mitochondrial. I ended up researching the DNA and learned nothing special about it as it functions much the same as male DNA. The exception being that it's actually got more DNA and can rapidly change. But I have to admit that just because a lineage is easier to trace through male DNA, I guess it doesn't actually give any real foundation for my theory. It just sounded like a good idea at the time.

[Enzyme-eternal]

As I understand it the Creators wanted a base for their genetic weapons so they began the development of life on Earth and manipulated the resulting organisms until a species evolved that met their needs (humans). After they had their base species they began directly altering them (us) until they got Zoanoids…then of course the Guyver disaster occurred and the Creators left.

At this point we now that the existing Zoanoids crossbred with humans but there are two facts that suggest that every modern human has the gene (or genes) required to become a Zoanoid.

The first is that both parents transfer all of their genetic code to their offspring and over such a large time scale it is hard to believe that anyone would not have the gene at this point. Essentially if you consider that the gene is dormant and artificial so it would probably not be effected by normal evolutionary processes.

The second is that anyone that has this gene can apparently be optimized and re-optimized into any zoaform. Why that matters is that it suggests that the gene isn’t what makes the Zoanoid, rather it facilitates optimization but that actual Zoanoids are developed by the optimizers. So the Creator era Zoanoids could have been very different to the ones we know now, probably stronger because the Creators were better at optimizing.

All of which pretty much boils down to, if males inherited the gene then so would females, though there are genes that only effect one gender I’m almost certain they are inherited by the other gender they are just dormant. Also the Zoanoid gene would only bypass females if the Creators designed it to and since we’ve established that by and large both genders have adequate combat potential I don’t see why they wouldn’t weaponise all of humanity.

By the way it was my fault things got of track when I made a perfectly innocent comment about the combatant uniforms so sorry for inadvertently making you think about what Balcus does or doesn’t have on under his robs.

[*V Guyver]

Alright, so my theory is out of the bag. Could it simply be a macho mentality at Chronos?

[*zeo]

It's always good to remember that despite our differences we're all still the same species (male/female and every color). Reasons for the lack of female optimization are more likely due to philosophical reasons than biological ones in my opinion.

Biologically speaking we all start out female and only develop into males as the fetus develops. After all both sexes carry at least one copy of the X chromosome.

Not to mention tales of werewolves and such were not limited to just males, if we are to indeed attribute zoanoid heritage to the source of such legends as suggested in the Guyver then it should be noted many of those legendary creatures were also female.

So I believe it's Chronos mentality, after all except for Guyot and Imakarum most of the zoalords predate the woman's movement

[Enzyme-eternal]

The lack of female combatants in Chronos is almost definitely down to sexist views resulting from the ancient cultural background of most of the Zoalords. I don’t think this applies to Waferdonus or Arkenfel though.

I imagine Waferdonus, not being human, would view gender among humans with the same indifference we do to other animals (a dog is a dog and a cat is a cat, we don’t really care about their gender).

Arkenfel was developed during the Creator era so it makes sense that he wouldn’t favor one gender over another because his only cultural background was “we all live to serve the Creators…no exceptions”. Still, since he is asleep most of the time I doubt he really had much influence on Chronos’ recruitment policies.

As for the general populous, if we except there is no biological reason that women can’t be optimized, statistically there must be female Zoanoids. However, since it as only been a year since X day and optimization is still a relatively new thing it could be that most women consider it to be more of a guy thing. It isn’t a good comparison but consider tattoos, they have been around for years but they are still considered by some to be largely just for men. Indeed in the early days it was only burly sailors and the like that had them.

My point is that if such views still exist about ink images implanted on peoples skin imagine being genetically modified to turn into a nine feet monster with lasers sticking out of its shoulders.

Oh and gender is decided, along with every other trait, during the conception phase of development but during development the thetas has both gender traits (at a severely underdeveloped level obviously) but only one continues to develop to become functional. So technically we all start out as hermaphrodites during our thetal development and incidentally that’s why men have nipples.

[*Jess♥]

a foetus goes through many stages. at early stages of foetal development there's not much to distinguish a human from fish.

so it's hardly surprising that gender differences take a while to arise.

[Toku Warrior]

Still, it truely makes ya wonder what was going through Barcus's, Waferdanos's, and Yenstui's minds when they saw Griselda. Even more, it makes me wonder what was actually going through Barcus's and Shin's minds when they saw the female Guyver (G4).

[*Jess♥]

Still, it truely makes ya wonder what was going through Barcus's, Waferdanos's, and Yenstui's minds when they saw Griselda.

how about -

"ooh... well, technically she is naked.... boobies.."

[Enzyme-eternal]

Well Yenstui might think that and Balcus defenetly would (poor guy probably hasn’t had a women in centuries).

Waferdanus on the other hand would be thinking “oh so the bumpy ones can be optimized too…why don’t we have one of those?”

[Toku Warrior]

Here's my representation of those three when they saw Griselda.

Barcus -

Yentsui -

Waferdanous -

[Larz Zahn]

ya know... waferdonos isnt human. so he might not even get it... his expression would be more like... why is everyone staring?

[Enzyme-eternal]

Yeah and Griselda would be thinking “I wish I had one of those stretchy battle suits, and why are my boobs so much bigger in my battle form? Hekkering, you damn pervert!”

Moving on…

I’ve been thinking about why we haven’t seen any female Zoanoids and, looking at it from an in-world perspective, there is no real reason why there shouldn’t be. I think its safe to assume at this point that there is no biological reason and the exclusively male forces of chronos are down to sociological reasons. Which brings us to the other perspective, the real world perspective or more specifically the creator’s perspective (not THE Creators but the people that making the manga).

If you look at the cast you’ll note that they are predominantly male, which is not necessarily a bad thing i.e. there is virtually no women ergo its sexist. The female characters have quality over quantity, especially with a year of growing up. Looking at the earlier chapters, when Mizuki was practically the only female character (baring miscellaneous student), she was in my opinion the voice of sanity during the exposition moments and a normal teenage girl. She screamed a lot but wouldn’t you if people were turning into monsters all around you and that wimp you knew way-back-went was suddenly butchering said monsters in a living suit of armor. I’m amazed she ever stopped screaming, that’s enough to drive anyone to the nut house. However, the true worth of the character came (as I see it) when Murikami explained about the Creators and the origin of humanity. Of course she’s going to freak out and question why she’s the only one not acting like Murikami just made a comment about the weather.

My point is that from a story point the normal Zoanoids are meant to be faceless cannon fodder and (double standard as it is) it is easier to dismiss males as expendable minions then females. As for the character Zoanoids like the Hyper Zoanoid Team Five or the Lost Numbers Commandos, while I think a female team member would have added to the poignancy of their deaths for Zx-tole and Aptom it still works. Any way, I think the reason we haven’t seen any female Zoanoids is the same reason we haven’t seen a female Guyver until now, the story.

I would like to remind everyone of the OVA, in particular the part when Valcuri bonds with the Guyver. That’s the sort of thing a Manga like Guyver could do but rather then have naked women every other page (a realistic scenario if their were female combatants) we only get plot necessary female characters. If we do see a female Zoanoid, and I think we will at some point given there is a female Guyver (and hopefully not just for fan service sake), she will hopefully be a fully realized character on pare with her male predecessors.

[*Kenji Murakami]

It's a depressing but true fact, that: male deaths have often been seen as less important than female deaths. And the deaths of children; but then anyone who would kill kids is pretty vile.

[*V Guyver]

It's possible that he wanted to avoid having giving the series a reputation for female nudity. It's something he didn't want attached to his real name, and why he did Zeorymer under a pen name. Well that's my theory at least.

[*Kenji Murakami]

That's also a possibility; Guyver has really never gone down the 'fetish' rout that so many other Manga take sometimes. They do have a lot of male nudity, true, but none of it has been emphasized.

Even Alkanphel in volume 15, and he spent the entire time - when he wasn't in his battleform - completely nude.

[*Jess♥]

thats a very good possibility and i really like that.

considering that Guyver is all about tentacles... and that bonding with hte guyver...

and also considering the well known japanese 'entertainment' with tentacles and women... it's actually not surprising that Takaya san would want to avoid having a lot of women in the manga.

if there were a lot of girls in it, do you think it would have been quite so well respected?

actualy I think it would not have been.

one of the things i really like about Guyver is that it has no sexual connotations at all.

the story is really pure. there is a tiny bit of female nudity but there is never anything that cheapens it, it is all pure.

[*V Guyver]

There have only been 2 or 3 scenes of female nudity in the franchise. Nude mizuki with Aptom, nude Shizu, and the OVA movie with valkyrie's shower and bonding scene. That's over the span of over two decades. It's safe to say that he's not trying to go for sex appeal in his Manga unless you count the female (and gay dudes) point of view on the male characters.

[Larz Zahn]

Course another reason we dont see any female zoanoids is because of the same reason you dont see many female soldiers in war movies. they dont fit in the sterotypical role.

and i very much enjoy that he's not mucking up the waters with a lot of nudity and sexual situations. so far he's only put it what absolutely had to be done. hes not going out of the way to emphasize body parts like some animes do.

and even with most nude scenes he's still being conservative.

[Enzyme-eternal]

Nudity, like violence, is all down to how you use it. If you have people’s heads exploding every page for no reason then its gratuities and pointless but if the reason their heads are exploding is because of a virus that doesn’t effect people with certain trait then it’s a dramatic (if admittedly odd) plot device. The same goes for nudity, it is perfectly possible to have an entire cast completely naked for the duration of a film without having lurid sexuality ruin the plot (by the way I’m talking about a real film, I think its called nude or naked).

I suppose that’s the line things like Guyver have to walk, between maintaining a solid plot with credible characters and making sales. Of course it is possible to have sex appeal without shoving bare breast in your audiences faces, if anything a subtle nudge if done right can go a lot further then a full body tackle. Which, now that I think about it, is what Guyver may be doing. If you look at Griselda’s data file you can see that her breasts are made to stand out and note those lines on her crouch and rear. Not overtly sexual but you certainly now you’re looking at a women.

I love the female form and believe that if depicted tastefully then how sexual the image is boils down to the individual viewer (that goes for the male form as well by the way). That being said, I would rather see more feminine zoaforms like Griselda then human women for two reasons.

The first is that one of the things that got me interested in Guyver in the first place was the Zoanoid designs and adding feminine forms would not only add an aesthetic appeal but add greater design variety. The second is, well this isn’t Victorian England, you can get magazines and stuff for that plus the way most women dress is hardly conservative (not a complaint) so why saturate every form of media with something that is already widely available.

[Toku Warrior]

True but the Manga started back in 1985 so times were different back then so it's kinda following those yearline guidelines.

[Enzyme-eternal]

Actually, if you think about Guyver is much more conservative than its contemporaries as far as nudity was concerned. If you look a the OVA, which is typical of Anime of that time, Valcuri (a female character inserted for sex appeal only) takes a shower right after being introduced. Compare that to the slightly more original accurate series and you’ll notice the only to nude scenes aren’t completely redundant to the plot, ok we real didn’t need to burst in on Mizuki changing. However, if I was Aptom and I wanted to get Sho mad, striping Mizuki with my blades would seem like a good way to do it.

I’m not sure if this applies to the Manga as I can’t think of any other Manga in Guyver’s categories to compare it to but another thing to consider is that Takaya could be trying to distance himself from his more sexually orientated work to the point of overcompensation. Understandable if he wants to be taken seriously in the mainstream but after so lone he seems to be easing up a bit with the inclusion of the female Guyver (a bold decision considering the connections that could be made to that unfortunate OVA).

[Renegade]

Oh come on! They're scientists (Well Barcus is) that have learned that all of history and religion are false. I think there a little more open-minded than just sexist old guys who are looking for new members in their elitist club.

Oh but that is definitely what they were thinking when they saw G4 and Griselda. I would think being in an organization exclusively made up of men would make you think along those lines.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Renegade

[*V Guyver]

So they are basicly the skull and bones club or the Masons?