YoungGuyver

I think we might disagree. I don't want you to change your views on death to suit my theories. But I don't think Yaweh is some ultimate god in the sense that WE believe in. Did he and his buddies create our universe? Maybe. Did they create his original universe? Doubtful. Is there a god above all else? Possibly. Is it interfering with any universe? Not that I've seen. But we can argue till we are blue in the face, and I don't think we'll ever truly convince each other. I'm just scared that someone will actually give Yaweh what he wants. Then I see us either being put into slavery, or death. Which is an alternative way to look at revelations. Should we submit to our parents just because they are stronger? Or that they are our parents? Should Hitler's children obey him without question? How can humanity ever gain true maturity without being responsible for its own actions and actively questioning?

For all I know, any creator in these kind of conditions, it wouldn't really matter what the physical form of such a creator is. But in order to 'fear' the death of your own universe to the point where you create an escape, it suggests mortality on some level. Reptilian, human, cloud monster, whatever. I'm really curious about the extent of dimensional cross over and its full capabilities. If Genesis has any accuracy, then the molten core formed with the water/firmament around it. The growing of the Earth then makes more sense when it says that the firmament was divided-when water begins to evaporate into cloud cover; unless this is a reference to the water existing first and the core formed inside it. That is the one thing that model in the link is missing; higher water levels that would show the Earth flooded

Wouldn't the borg be immune to their own weapons? Shouldn't they already know how to adapt to them?

Sorry Ryuki. I agree with adding more ideas. I took offense because the line of logistics you were using is usually used to show how difficult, or next to impossible something is. I am suggesting that Yaweh, Baal, El, and all the gods of that kind are in fact mortal, and created this world, if not universe, in order to escape their dying universe. You make a good point about death, but... does that then meen that it is alright to kill someone that noone knows? If there is noone to miss them, how could it then be wrong? Is it then ok to kill the homeless people in the streets? Or the forgotten prostitutes? To me, you are stealing someone's life. There is a value to life. We don't just exist to make others happy, but to exist for ourselves. Else, you might argue that we might as well commit suicide in order to avoid the negative emotions associated with death-as life would be completely meaningless. Instead of testing the phase of particles (which is next to impossible with our current technology), we may just analyze to composition of the Earth's core, and study it for transdimensional properties. Of course, it would make sense from an engineering perspective that the core would be a receiver, and that in the original dimension would be the transmitter. So working out how both ends of the gateway would work might be a bit of a challenge. Unless we study any supposed transdimensional references, and search for keys (yes, I have ideas already). But we could also model how the early Earth worked as a transdimensional creation, and start a study from there. It might give us ideas on what else we might want to look for

It would be fun and weird if 'this' Kirk met the original Kirk. If Spock got hit on from nurse Chapel, and 'this' Uhura got offended. That would be fun. I like that even this Kirk got to do the Kobiashi Maru in the same way. The Apple was priceless (funny, someone mentioned that in Trek 2, Kirk was eating an apple while talking about the test, and this Kirk was eating an apple while doing the test) What is weird, is that this Trek movie made more in its second weekend than it did in its first. 77 million compared to 75, for a total of 152. Not bad. Looks like they might makes the other two movies in the trilogy after all. What voyage, what portion of the universe will the Enterprise explore next?

I took offense because you were asking logistics questions that would only be asked if questioning the reality of it, or if one were preparing 'the day of' doing it. What I thought would be obviously premature to ask, as there would be so much more important work to do before hand. I define evil as that which causes unnecessary harm. Or rather, harm that is not truly required for it's survival, broadly speaking. We kill to eat, we eat to survive. Thus, killing to eat is morally acceptable. Torture yield inaccurate tactical data, and we can clearly survive without it. Thus, torture would be evil. Yaweh killed an innocent baby to punish king David for murdering a man in order to get away with committing adultery. David was wrong in what he did, but was Yaweh right by default? Simply because we consider him all powerful? Because he is our creator? Does that make abortion right? Would the baby not be innocent? In the old testament, it reads as if humanity is a crop, something to be cultivated. That humanity is a strain, and that our genes directly dictate our actions. Have we no soul? No free will if we are merely the product of our fathers? Hopefully this story was never meant to be taken literally, and that it's true message is that we can not profit (gain rewards such as children) from our evil acts. But if Yaweh were real, would this not give insight into his mind? Describe our relationship? So many places where it is mentioned the killing of children-though in many cases I mnyself vie it to be a poetic killing. Interesting. But if the transdimension thing were real, with the theory that god would be mortal, and seeking survival, why would rules be given for slavery? If other things had been banned, why allow this to exist? Gay is evil, and beating slaves is ok? The bible does not say god is omnipotent, but rather almighty. If almighty extends to omnipotent, then would he not predict the future in order to include what the bible would need to truly extend to future generations? I'm drunk right now, heading to bed tired, and I must stop. I like you Ryuki, and I look forward to talking to you some more good friend

To answer any of that would require more information. Many problems are seemingly complex until you find ways to engineer them out. What if, for instance, objects of extreme gravity were attracted through the dimensional fabrics? What if every star was naturally attracted to a counterpart across the dimensional threshold due? That would be a great way to cheat. Unfortunately, we would have to understand the exact nature between the dimensions before we could answer that question. And before bothering to enter that entire line of research, one might have to test to see if Earth is indeed extra dimensional. Hence, the particle test, assuming it hasn't been contaminated. And of course, we would never know if they tested with other planets before unless we saw exact evidence. A theory requires scrutiny, and experimentation. Not ridicule without serious thought. This is the closest I've come in recent years to believing in the bible. It's not my fault if I suspect that Yaweh might be evil.

I was reading on M-theory a while back, and how some versions of it suggest how we might survive the death of our universe. How not only we might escape into an alternate dimension, but how we might possibly create a new universe with just and ounce of energy (all the positive and negative energy almost cancel out, leaving just an ounce worth). That's very interesting when I started reading the bible again last year, when some of these crazy theories start stirring some things that most would say come from science fiction. Things like this: If this universe were created, and -this- planet were added in later through a dimensional gate way... if it's core were a dimensional gate that allowed it the planet's mass to come through? I really want to take particle samples from deep into the crust and compare it to particles from off world. Such an extraordinary, yet mechanical creation of our world is disturbing. If indeed our world has a trans dimensional genesis, then it very well suggests why our world was created. The 'why' suggests that our gods may have been mortal. As an explanation for their actions, I find it very scary. In terms of repercussions any way

Oh come on, it's been over a hundred years since Darwin! Are we stuck in 1850 looking for evidence? There has been tons of evidence since. Complex yes, but not irreducible. Look at the genetic code, and you can start to spot the mutations. For instance, the wings of a bird are virtually the same as the gills of a fish. The bible was poetically right when it says that birds came from the oceans. Genes can double, creating a useless set, until that set takes on a whole new role. Eyes are reducible (a better example), as we have photo sensitive single celled creatures. And yet, the MODERN version of the eye is very complex, with many components. One of the tenets of evolution is that CHANGE occurs in order to manipulate life. Which leaves us with many questions, such as what changes have occurred? What were the exact conditions when life first formed? What was the first life like? Let's keep researching, things could get interesting. And since 1926, we have so much more evidence on how mutations DO occur, and how new species develop. Some mutations within human genes that are currently considered 'diseases' may actually be the beginnings of new species, considered a sickness simply because it is different. Asperger's may be a very good example of this. I'm sorry, but how does a scientist guarantee a politicians power? That doesn't make much sense to me. The science of this on the other hand DOES offer benefits, such as showing us how to better manage our fisheries (Taking only the big fish results in fish evolving to be smaller-suggesting that we should vary our fishing habits. Also, having a varied gene pool makes it harder for virus to destroy an ecosystem, suggesting we should have variety in our gardens in order to get better yields). Though if you want to talk about morally questionable geneticists gleaning up to politicians, then perhaps you might be interested in looking up some of the major chemical companies, and how Bill Clinton appointed one of their vice presidents to the head of the genetically modified foods division of the FDA, which ends up approving GMO's by default. I'll side with you on that due to it's unscientific and amoral basis. Just as the bible itself has been used as rationalization material for countless atrocities. People that wish to do horrible things will find both truth and lie alike in order to justify it. We could even say slavery is alright, because the bible dictates the rules for treating your slaves. Does that make slavery morally right?

The bottom of the neck to the front of the deflector dish is the reference point I was using. The point for me that makes noticeable space, Or rather, seems to fit. But it's weird, the neck connection on the back end is the same, and aligns with the connections on the old saucer, but the new saucer is bigger

Ryuki, I take it back. I'm disagreeing with you. The alternate time line Enterprise hull doesn't look too far forward. Seeing them together in profile, the outline of the original matches the new version, and the new version is using the design style of the A. What looks odd about it is the bottom of the hull. It slopes up Way too fast, and throws the sense of balance off. The alternate time line engineering is just as forward as the original, from those pics. What's interesting is the Enterprise C was a concept for the D before production on Next Gen began. They needed a ship design and decided to use it. A poetic precursor. I'm not so fond of the NX Enterprise. That series as a whole seems so pointless. They forget about the Horizon class ships that StarFleet was supposed to start with (just like the original Enterprise, only a sphere instead of a saucer mostly), beat the name Enterprise to death, and start using modern trek tech so that the characters don't have to 'struggle' in a script to do anything. Weren't holograms everywhere enough in Voyager? I loved it though when they showed the rivalry between the Andorians and Vulcans; it's excellent to see how the federation could truly be built, and see what difficulties they had to work through. Instead it becomes a waste by making it a time war. Which is why I was so twitchy going in to watch this new Trek. There are things I love and hate about every ship design. I'm not too much of a fan of the original, as its angle jarr at me, and its colors are so full you could be driven to commit suicide on that ship after a year. The refit/A was great! Don't like the warp pylons, but its still pretty good. And the A bridge tops the list as my favorite. On the whole though, it's still very angular and scrawny, but it makes it look good. The B is big and sleek in EVERY way. The only problem with the bridge is that they ripped off the helm consoles from next gen (how cheap); but hey, even the A borrowed next gens warp core to save cash. The C is a bubble ship for me. Not really interested in it. The D is big and sleek, but from some angles it looks awkward. It's interior has some great intersecting angles, but then has some square angle right next to them which makes it look unfinished in design. The E is sleek and looks like its either fast or powerful at will. But the consoles on the bridge are rainbow colored, and in both exterior and interior the angles intersect oddly, breaking symmetry, and resulting in a horrid look for me. It would be great, but needs some refining. And some color on the bottom of the warp engines!

yeah. He just commented that the universe was trying to prove him wrong

Here's a different theory for the origin of the parasite: There is a species of whale like creatures. Huge behemoths, that suckle the juices of their world. And once a year, or century, they migrate. But this migration is unlike what salmon, or hawks undergo. These creatures release their accumulated energy, and push themselves into a flight far above the clouds of their world. They defeat the gravity of their planet, and begin a journey through space to a second home. Perhaps they take this journey to breed. Perhaps they take this journey to stay on a planet that is closer to the star during its orbit. We may never know. There is however a passenger. The parasite is a creature that absorbs the dna of its prey in order to hunt. Perhaps the whale like creatures have an immune system that can fend off the parasites; it would be interesting to test. But the parasites would find ways of digging into the whale creatures skin, and being carried across to the other world. Perhaps once this voyage mattered little to them. Mattered little until the star at the center of their binary system died, and fell in on itself. The worlds of life in this system were fortunate to not be swallowed in the wake. Over eons the pull on them has increased. Their energy within the gravity well becomes ever greater. The parasite learns a new trick-how to manipulate that energy during its hunt. The parasite hunts as a true metamorph now. With a sample flesh, it can assume the size and shape of its prey by hiding parts of its body as a shadow. (sorry, being flowery with words is really working for my narrative here) The dark star is a link to a realm that so few can see; and as flowers glean from the sun, the parasite gleans from the black hole. (Ok, I can't explain this idea any further without getting into techno terms, and I'm having fun with this, so I'll continue with the fun part. Maybe explain the science part later) Adrift in space was a metal craft. A ship of refugees, of slaves in hiding from their empire. It is suicide to drift so close to a dark star system; and thus they hide for many weeks. Many months, until the passing of the behemoth. The whale like creature scares them, sends them screaming in fear of being caught by the empire. It inspires them, brings them an explosion of euphoria upon discovering a creature so majestic, gliding through the stellar wind with a grace unfathomable. What man could not follow such creatures of wonder? They landed upon the alien world that the behemoth had led them to, and pitched tents in hopes of making this their new home. For many weeks they camped; free from the empire. Free, and happy. Until one of them disappeared. They missed him for only a day, because it was later again that night that it took its next victim. The parasite had hunted, and had taken one of them. It was using their form, the face of one of their own to consume them one by one. They banded together, to use what tools and weapons they could to defeat the monster that wore the face of their former friend, only to have it double to muscle, double the tooth and claw, pervert the nature of their brother into a hideous, unstoppable force. It would pick them one by one. They ran. Every world has its dangers. Every world has its wonders. But what are the wonders if we have no one to share them with? What are they if we leave behind the ones we love? If we leave them to die? The refugees returned to space, the alien world leaving a bitter taste in their mouth. Perhaps the empire was lucky to catch them, or perhaps they wanted to be captured; how could they continue living their immortal life in freedom while their comrades had fallen so tragically? Years went by, and they kept their voyage silent, unwilling to speak of it. Their masters comfortable that such harsh a journey had tamed them. Their masters continued to taunt them, to torture all the slaves of its empire as it had for millions of years, and as it would for millennia more. Years went by, until one of them devised a weapon... A single weapon to stop the beast, to stop the parasite in its tracks. The small cadre of once refugees gathered together, thinking the lone rebel in their group a madman. But he persisted, urged them to remember how hopeful they had once been for their freedom. One of them argued that she could not live with the though of abandoning her people again; and he reveled in it! He argued that it was wrong for any of them to be left behind, and wrong for any of them to ever live as slaves again! He argued that the wrath of that parasitic monster, of -all- monsters is what their masters deserved! That if they could harness that power, then they could finally receive their justice. It was that day that they made a pact. In secret would they begin a new journey. In secret, would they begin a war

Star trek already had fighters in DS9, during the Dominion war. They were two man ships (assuming) as they looked like the ships the Maqui used. Don't forget the Valkyrie class shuttle, which has been used like a fighter in Insurrection. It's interesting how the loss of the Kelvin delayed the launch of the Enterprise by 13 years Enterprise launch 2245 Alternate Enterprise 2258 Enterprise A launch 2270 Kirk enters the Acadamy 2250(?) New Kirk enters the Acadamy 2255 Kirk takes command of the Enterprise 2265 New Kirk commands the Enterprise under Admiral Pike in 2258(?) Pike must have written one interesting dissertation on the Battle of the Kelvin to convince Starfleet to delay christoning a ship.

I thought it was interesting that in trek 2, they mentioned how Kirk 'cheated' on his Kobiashi Maroo test; and in this one, they showed him 'cheating' on his kobiashi maru test. It's interesting to see how a young Kirk reacts to things, especially when this version grew up without a father. Sulu is still a fencer, though has a nicer sword (Man I want that!) Remember in Insurrection, the open girder work in the Captain's Yacht? Girders make more sense in 'engineering' than they do there. True, they probably should have added a few more bulkheads, but the ship hasn't even been chrisoned yet.

You know Ryuki, you feel about this Star trek how I feel about bayformers. What is interesting is that you are referring so much to engineering design. That they don't have enough walls in engineering? Startrek started as an underbudget tv show with small sets. When they did the first motion picture, if you look down the warp core in engineering, it horizontally goes down all the length of the ship. It may not have been executed as gloriously as this, but they tried. When Kirk first came aboard, we saw the shuttle bay from the front end of the inside, a multi-level facility, that even had turbolift tubes extending through it. Granted, in movie five, the chopped it in half. It would have been great to see the insides of the main shuttle bay on next gen, that takes up a full four decks, and wraps around the innards of the saucer section. A pity that we never got to see that. I liked how this captains chair still had the same black square cushions. That the helm had those angled light bars over the console instead of the microphone lamp. The bridge is still pretty much a circle, with everyone is pretty much the same location. What I really liked were the transparent water lines! Damn that is a great idea. You can see the flow, and where potential clogs are! So useful! But I will agree with you, from the outside, the engineering looks way too far forward. It looks gimpy. Though some shots of the movie look fantastic, where it's rising out of Titan's atmosphere. Nice. All in all, it was far more faithful to to star trek than bayformers was to Transformers. Checkov acted like Checkov, while Iron hide acted like Sun streaker. They referenced the original timeline with Kirk asking if he knew is father and everything. The biggest part I didn't like was with the swelling of hands. A little too much humor, but ok.

Innate problem- Darwin was 200 HUNDRED years ago! Science advances. Darwin is not the end all be all of evolution. We actually have researched, and understand more about how the process actually works now. And even if he did make it up (that is a rumor, not historical fact) it wouldn't change the evidence for the theory. (Zeo, do you want to tell the tale of the lady who claimed Darwin recanted the theory on his death bed?) Instead of getting overly preachy or high and mighty, here is some lite reading to explain more of what the -modern- theory is currently like: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1362...onceptions.html

Salkafar, I think you have worded that perfectly. And nice backing him up Zeo. As Einstein once said- 'Reality is what exists, even after you stop believing in it'. We have, what is it now, four major religions, and hundreds or perhaps thousands of little ones? The odds of picking the correct religion the first time rounds are astronomically against you. So if a religion attempts to describe the universe (and not just a philosophy for coping within it), then science can be used to narrow down the list of religions as possible truths. Depending upon interpretation also, but that's really getting into it. How much poetry do you want? I believe in evolution yes. Did aliens engineer humanity? Maybe. But ultimately, life has to start somehow. If an entity is a force of energy that interacts with the world around it, triggering reactions within chemicals, eventually building into cells, and ever increasing complexity. What really has me though is fire. To me, it is life in its most primitive and chaotic. It is so dependent on its fuel supply; it has no reserve in most cases. Our form of life matches the energy reaction of fire, but has the reaction control and regulated. Perhaps life itself was not born in water, but in ashes, where the energy reactions could find chemicals to carry it further. A field of ashes would be required, and a medium for mixing different forms. So I guess water then comes into it again. Granted, it would have to be very polluted water in order to continue such a high energy reaction. Something like a thermal vent would probably be the closest equivalent. Who knows if Earth is even the proper chemical mix for the original start of chemical life? But a start is a start.

If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you

Newfoundland declares war on the U.S.A. President George Bush was in the Oval Office wondering which country to invade next, when his telephone rang. "Hallo, President Bush " a heavily accented voice said. "This is Archie, up ere at the Harp Seal Pub in Badger's Cove , Newfoundland , Canada , eh? I am callin' to tells ya dat we are officially declaring war on ya!" "Well Archie," George replied, "This is indeed important news ! How big is your army ?" "Right now," said Archie, after a moments calculation "there is myself, me cousin Harold , me next-door-neighbor Mick, and the whole dart team from the pub. That makes eight!" George paused. "I must tell you Archie that I have one million men in my army waiting to move on my command." "Holy jeez," said Archie. "I'll have ta call ya back!" Sure enough, the next day, Archie called again. " Mr. Bush , the war is still on! We have managed to acquire some infantry equipment!" "And what equipment would that be Archie?" George asked. "Well sir, we have two combines, a bulldozer, and Harry's farm tractor." President Bush sighed. "I must tell you Archie, that I have 16,000 tanks and 14,000 armored personnel carriers. Also I've increased my army to one and a half million since we last spoke." "Lard t'underin' b'y", said Archie, "I'll be getting back to ya." Sure enough, Archie rang again the next day.. "President Bush , the war is still on! We have managed to git ourselves airborne! We up an' modified Harrigan's ultra-light wit a couple of shotguns in the cockpit, and four b'ys from the Legion have joined us as well!" George was silent for a minute then cleared his throat. "I must tell you Archie that I have 10,000 bombers and 20,000 fighter planes. My military complex is surrounded by laser-guided, surface-to-air missile sites. And since we last spoke, I've increased my army to TWO MILLION!" "Jumpins," said Archie, "l'll have ta call youse back." Sure enough, Archie called again the next day. " President Bush ! I am sorry to have to tell you dat we're callin' off dis 'ere war." "I'm sorry to hear that" said George . "Why the sudden change of heart?" Well, sir," said Archie, "we've all sat ourselves down and had a long chat over a bunch of pints, and come to realize dat dere's no way we can feed two million prisoners." CANADIAN CONFIDENCE CANNOT BE SHAKEN!

I don't think -EVERY- zoanoid is based on a creator design. I think Chronos scientists do come up with original designs. Sure, the first few zoanoids were probably creator based, but I think that the biggest thing they did was take the 'zoanoid process'. I'm not saying they are encoding DNA from complete scratch, as it would take a very long time to write every single letter of the genetic code. But I think they are learning how to mix and match various segments to mimic different wild life creatures, such as mimicking segments of code from electric eels, and chitin armor from crabs. Chronos just might be coming up with combinations the Uranos hadn't processed yet. The hyperzoanoids are the best evidence that the Chronos scientists are coming up with a deeper understanding of the genetic structure. So its kinda doubtful that a complete list of modern zoanoid tech would be in the Relic's hard drive. Though you made a very good point about the twelve zoalords being within the presence of the Relic, and that it could have scanned them. Scanning creatures within the vicinity is a very good point. The degree to which the Relic can scan is a question though. Can the Relic scan DNA with its equivalent of hyper sensor orbs? Does the range of the orbs permit that? Or do they need physical contact for that level of detail? Or must they be put in a womb in order to undergo a full analysis? My, this is getting a little off topic, so I'll stop

I find it interesting that the Gigantic has a docking port such as the Chrysalis. Oh, I know we can explain the need and such, but its still interesting-given how the regular armor seems to work without it.

Kind of reminds me of Aptom in a way

Good point. But your logic still baffles me, because as Ryuki pointed out, everyone was long lived back then. Suggesting that Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden because they were long lived doesn't seem logical considering that. And if you are pointing out that good portions of this are symbollic (which I agree with, it did have god confessing to speak in riddles), then why are you making statements such as the length of time that Adam and Eve lived in Eden? Yes, I know. I was the one that pointed out that names have meanings. That for the true meaning behind the bible we must take into account every word in order to figure out the riddle. Remember? I was arguing against you simply taking the meaning that the modern church dishes out. No Zeo, I'm working the riddle and the meaning, and incorporating every fragment. I'm not dropping the parts that don't fit into my world view. I'm trying to incorporate them in order to see what this particular religion was actually trying to say. Oh, and about the bible being a law book-the first five books of the bible are the Torah. That literally translates into 'law'. Remember how many rules it lays down? And punishments? And descriptions for becoming clean? Though honestly I think the clean part relates into the presence of the Ark. The Ark was just really weird. True, no argument. But the prophecy came from god, and god gave it in order to save David from Saul. God interfered with Saul's free will. That is what we were debating. You were taking various examples of free will from other stories, I took an example of free will being over ridden from this one. That is the only reason I brought it up That's why the church originally started arguing for free will. Without free will, people didn't see the need to work for going to heaven. They felt they were either going or they weren't. Fate was dangerous as a concept to the church. Prophecy was dangerous as it was-(If I am prophecized to commit a sin, is it destiny? If it is, is it really my fault? Because god made it all and set me up to fail?) This is under the same lines as why the church created Purgatory. (What good is going to church if you have already sinned-better to have a place to work the lesser sins off). The church created and twisted many concepts. Free will became absolute, when that is not what the bible was suggesting.

Hmm. Back to your original example Ryuki, I wonder if parents somehow want their children to steal the cookies from the cookie jar. The bible gives us examples of Yawah's limitations. It points out that he is almighty, as in incredibly powerful, but modern thought has us twisting this into omnipotence. Um, are you serious? I have shown examples of trying to find out what the words actually originally mean, and you are saying that I am looking at this from a modern mindset? Seriously? Looking at the meaning of each word can give context to what the meaning is. You suggested that we ignore individual words and follow modern interpretation of the meaning instead. Unfortunately, meaning over time can be like rumor, and twisted and perverted. Yes, these are examples of free will. I at no point said that we did not have free will, but I did point out that it can be over ridden. Providing more examples of free will does not prove your point for you. Writing half a dozen pages of free will examples will not prove you right. Do not confuse quality with quantity. In your examples, you ASSUMED and interpreted the first sin as a significance to free will and such. That can also be interpreted as a limitation of god-that at that point in time he lacked the foresight to see exactly what human nature is like. The church has trying shaping up the image of god over the years in order to try and convert as many people as possible into the religion. For instance, as you pointed out, skewing Sheol into heaven and hell, and later inventing Purgatory. The bible never covered purgatory at all. And mention a promise of god for mankind to enter heaven or hell in the bible. Yahweh promised a good life if you worshiped him (which can be tough for the church if good people actually suffer in life), and to curse and disease those against him (again, tough for the church with real world examples-Karma blending in with heaven and hell was an excellent thing to incorporate into the religion) But you are right I suppose, that the hardening of Pharohs heart can be interpreted in other ways. Though how you ignore other things from the bible, such as his laws concerning slavery. Which seem to treat the human slaves as having no free will in the matter at all. After all, they are 'property'. It even uses that excuse when defining to what extent you are allowed to beat them. And points out that slaves are to be obedient. Where is the free will of the slave in that? But I suppose that if you wanted a real example of free will being over ridden, you could look at King Saul, in the book of Samuel. Instead of saying 'hardened heart', as with Pharaoh, we have a different phrase here. 'An evil spirit from Yhwh (what I spell and pronounce Yaweh) tormented him' was first used in Samuel 16:14. Of course, in the beginning there, it is used as an excuse for Saul to bring David as a Lyre player to ease his spirits. It definitely does not sound like an over riding of free will there, but more like harassment, or possibly even guilt-not the point of this part of the debate. What is interesting is its usage later on in Samuel 18:10. After Saul and David return from the war, and David killed Goliath and received more of the glory Could that not be interpreted as god manipulating Saul to -attempt- a murder? Why would it say the spirit was from god if it was Saul's feelings of abandonment? Unless the wording of 'spirit' is meant to describe that, and not a power of god. But then we look even further, in Samuel 19:23, when Saul had clearly hunted down David to murder him (you can't really argue with the repeated phrasing of Saul asking for David's location so that he may kill him), Saul was interrupted by god Now, VGuyver really should have mentioned that in his debate with you earlier. VGuyver was making a point about the pic that this thread is based on, about God's will, and interfering with evil. You argued against V that God could not interfere in human actions, as it would violate free will. But this is an example of God interfering in order to save the life of David. V was saying that God could prevent evil, prevent was, and you said that he could not. But he did, at least according to the bible. And it is clear that this is interference, because after wards, Saul still wanted to kill him (Samuel 20:30). Yes, but you said how long Adam and Eve had been in Eden before their expulsion, which was not exactly given. You example did not show math to calculate how old they were when expelled. Now if you had taken the age of Cain and Able at the death of Adam and Eve, then that would have been far more suggestive. But you spent a few chunks of text giving examples that don't really prove your point. You do that a lot. What? um, ok. Are you just spouting random things to make me look things up and actually reference them in order to refute them? Are you just trying to get me to waste my time? Are you referencing movies like Eric the Viking now? Kinda reminds me of when you tried referencing Marvel comics for science to try to use in Guyver. Because God is almighty, but not omnipotent. He has great power, but there are limitations to it. Since we're using movies, why not make a simile. The agents in the Matrix movie had great powers in the matrix. They created the matrix, and could change it. They could even over ride a human in it to get certain actions done (taking over bodies). In the second movie, if a computer program person looked at you, it was revealed that they could read your code and learn truth about you. But they were still limited, they couldn't see everything in their world at once. The rebels were capable of hiding to some degree within the matrix. I know, this is a movie, but the relationship of power is what I'm alluding to. Please note that there are limits to how well this simile works Um, Christ was declared by the Constantine government to be of god. Before that, the exact nature of Christ was in dispute. Some considered him a very good priest, and other considered him god on Earth. But you just referenced a government opinion and said it was a source of god. Kind of an ironic argument. But you said the stories that are against free will are from people with agendas? What about the stories FOR free will? Are you suggesting that you want to pick and choose from the bible? Are you saying that you only want to pick out the ones that back your beliefs? A little bit biased there in my opinion. That would sounds as if you already have a religious belief, and are then trying to validate it with scraps that you can gather from here and there, and leaving out the rest. Oh, and the first five books of the old testament were supposed to have been written by Moses, who walked with god. would that not count as a first hand account? It says Moses wrote the law/torah in Deuteronomy 31:24 That is assuming that Jesus was an actual person. Riiiight. Not if you misuse it. I'll trust my soul to myself, thank you very much. I think the Karaite's have the right idea. They might use the bible, but they at least take responsibility for themselves.