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Posted

do we have a source for that?

 

I have not found any information on the Web to prove the rumor.  Otherwise, the news about the cancellation of the Guyver TV series by Yoshiki Takaya would have been included on my Web site with a reference to a credible source.

Posted

ok, thanks for clarifying. :)

 

 

I think the points that other people bring up are good points.

many of us do buy the manga. if they released more figures from the bio-fighter collection, a great deal of us would buy them.

 

perhaps our focus should be to simply get guyver out to as many people as possible and use that to push people to buy official guyver product.

 

if we make a concerted effort to put information on any materials we produce, we can do some good.

if we could sell the japanese guyver books on this site, I think that would be a really good thing.

if we were to do something like that, then we are actually putting money in the guyver producer's pockets.

Posted (edited)

Using the Naruto manga as an example for a marketing product is not an appropriate series to be used in the same context as the Guyver manga series. The Guyver manga was created at around a different societal culture with a very unique storyline in the mid-1980s. The Naruto manga, however, was created close to the year, 2000, where the storyline was developed for an evolved society in a genre that was geared to be much more relatable towards the general public. Due to its uniqueness and aggressive nature of the Guyver series (i.e., extreme violence and brutality), developing creative merchandise for the manga and anime has been, and still is, difficult to produce, as opposed to a light and flexible series such as the Naruto series. Yoshiki Takaya's Guyver and his manga was meant to be used not for the basis of product merchandise, but as his primary selling tool, as it has been seen in its past history. By removing the fundamental selling point of the Guyver manga with direct translations/scanlations provided by the Guyver Advocacy group, a publishing company to release its own translated version of the Guyver manga can progressively move further away from turning into reality, if this should continue to occur.

Yoshiki Takaya also had expressed his disinterest in an interview regarding the continuation of the Guyver television series of 2005 to 2006. From what that I was told, Yoshiki Takaya had cancelled the Guyver Project to his production company. However, the reason for Yoshiki Takaya's discontinuation of the Guyver TV series was not known.

My point exactly. Irregardless if my example is Naruto or not, the basic principle applies. Ok, if you don't want Naruto, then how about Gundam? War? Not really a children's cup of tea, but it has a huge market. Do correct me if I misunderstand from where you're coming from, but are you basically saying that doing scanlation is killing the Guyver Franchise? If so, then you are hosting a website doing exactly that.

Edited by durendal
Posted

My point exactly. Irregardless if my example is Naruto or not, the basic principle applies. Ok, if you don't want Naruto, then how about Gundam? War? Not really a children's cup of tea, but it has a huge market. Do correct me if I misunderstand from where you're coming from, but are you basically saying that doing scanlation is killing the Guyver Franchise? If so, then you are hosting a website doing exactly that.

 

durendal, I would suggest to you to review the messages that I have posted in this thread.

Posted (edited)

I resent the fact that someone would even dare to call us Guyver fans "closeted". I eat, sleep, breath, and crap Guyver! Every day! I preach about it like it is a holy text! There will never be a manga as magnificent as Takaya's magnum opus! To even mention Naruto in the same sentence as Guyver would be considered blasphemous in the highest regard!

Edited by Krucifer
Posted

I resent the fact that someone would even dare to call us Guyver fans "closeted". I eat, sleep, breath, and crap Guyver! Every day! I preach about it like it is a holy text! There will never be a manga as magnificent as Takaya's magnum opus! To even mention Naruto in the same sentence as Guyver would be considered blasphemous in the highest regard!

Pardon the jargon that I utilized. I did not mean any offense by this. I was merely stating that not all guyver fans are as zealous as yourself. If all readers share the same passion that you have shown, it might be much easier to convince english companies to take on Guyver.

Posted

My point exactly. Irregardless if my example is Naruto or not, the basic principle applies. Ok, if you don't want Naruto, then how about Gundam? War? Not really a children's cup of tea, but it has a huge market. Do correct me if I misunderstand from where you're coming from, but are you basically saying that doing scanlation is killing the Guyver Franchise? If so, then you are hosting a website doing exactly that.

 

durendal, I would suggest to you to review the messages that I have posted in this thread.

 

I did and that's the impression that I am getting.

 

durendal, judging by your immediate response, I would suggest to you to review them all again.  For to, at least, be making a bold conclusion as to say that my Web site provides scanlations of the Guyver manga is not only entirely inaccurate, but it is an improper statement.

Enough of my thoughts concerning this topic have been thoroughly conveyed.  As I have previously mentioned in this thread, it is at the discretion of the Guyver Advocacy group to decide about what the outcome will be.  At the time of this message, it is now apparent that the Guyver Advocacy group has decided to continue to, at least, provide direct translations of the Guyver manga series.

Posted

could i be so bold as to elaborate on what i took from this?

I believe guyver four was stating that a translation was reducing the impetus for a company to publish guyver in english as a translation already exists and the market opportunity is reduced.

I think durendal, you may have implied with your words something different. that a translation is damaging all of guyver including the original publication.

to conclude that guyver fours website was doing this is not entirely accurate. guyver four's website contains the latest chapter and no more. the tankoubon is not available there so the only thing that could be damaged is the sale of shonen ace, but it is not generally available in the west anyway.

now to follow on from that,

even if durendal's post did imply that damage was being done to the franchise, including the original publication, I believe there is a difference in focus. to deter publication in english could be damaging 'the franchise' in some people's view.  but as the franchise currently exists, there is no damage being done to it. as it exists. i think it depends if you consider the franchise as it is, or the franchise as an ambiguous bubble of potential.

I hope that helps a little?

Posted

could i be so bold as to elaborate on what i took from this?

I believe guyver four was stating that a translation was reducing the impetus for a company to publish guyver in english as a translation already exists and the market opportunity is reduced.

I think durendal, you may have implied with your words something different. that a translation is damaging all of guyver including the original publication.

to conclude that guyver fours website was doing this is not entirely accurate. guyver four's website contains the latest chapter and no more. the tankoubon is not available there so the only thing that could be damaged is the sale of shonen ace, but it is not generally available in the west anyway.

now to follow on from that,

even if durendal's post did imply that damage was being done to the franchise, including the original publication, I believe there is a difference in focus. to deter publication in english could be damaging 'the franchise' in some people's view.  but as the franchise currently exists, there is no damage being done to it. as it exists. i think it depends if you consider the franchise as it is, or the franchise as an ambiguous bubble of potential.

I hope that helps a little?

 

Ryuki, your interpretation of my messages in this thread is correct.  Directly translating/scanlating the Guyver manga series does not impact its primary target audience.  It is the consequence(s) of this activity that affects the impression of a publisher in obtaining the Guyver manga series on a global scale.

The Guyver Solution Web site, including its predecessors, was designed to be a collection of Guyver related information found from across the World Wide Web, presented in a form that helps promote and enhance the Guyver series experience.  As the Guyver Solution Web site was built specifically for English literate visitors, providing pages to the raw formats of the Guyver manga in a small amount on the site is possible, as they cannot be read and understood by the average visitor.  However, full volumes of the Guyver manga will not be placed on the Web site in the future.  The only Guyver manga that will be available on the Guyver Solution Web site is the latest chapter to the series in its raw format.  All references and files to previous chapters of the Guyver manga that was once found on the Guyver Solution Web site are immediately removed.

Posted

durendal, judging by your immediate response, I would suggest to you to review them all again. For to, at least, be making a bold conclusion as to say that my Web site provides scanlations of the Guyver manga is not only entirely inaccurate, but it is an improper statement.

Enough of my thoughts concerning this topic have been thoroughly conveyed. As I have previously mentioned in this thread, it is at the discretion of the Guyver Advocacy group to decide about what the outcome will be. At the time of this message, it is now apparent that the Guyver Advocacy group has decided to continue to, at least, provide direct translations of the Guyver manga series.

Alright, to be fair, I may have over stepped my boundaries which is why I will retract my statement about your site. However, my opinion on the rest of my statement still holds true. Let's stop right here as I do not want to escalate this particular issue any further. Obviously both of us agree to disagree.
Posted

so what are our options.

we were going to carry on by doing a public html page form of translation.

but obviously that will not work if people can just take that translation and typeset it anyway.

we can go two ways.

A) do a scanlation and only give it to people who we know and trust.

B) do a scanlation with the intent to spread it as far and wide as we possibly can.

 

I like Guyver, and I want to read it. Quite frankly, I can translate it myself and read it pretty well.

Also, Durendal can read it just fine. He doesn't need to do any release.

If people are going to treat us with such disdain as to steal our work etc. then we do not need to gift our skills to anyone.

But of course there are many loyal fans who we know and trust. people who we would be happy to share with.

I also like Yoshiki Takaya. I think he's a stand up guy who brings us a wonderful Manga most months.

I don't want to screw him.  Our original plan was to translate so that anyone with the manga can read it.

If we had an ability to sell the tankoubon from this site, then we could provide a translation with the tankoubon.

I'm not sure what format we could use but I think it could work well.

We wouldn't be screwing Yoshiki Takaya because everyone who is given the work done by us, would be buying a tankoubon and the money would go to Yoshiki Takaya.

I think this is a good concept.

But right now, I am thinking mass publishing of our translations may not be the way to go.

Guyver Four has brought up some excellent points here and that is partly my reasoning for thinking this way.

Does it seem right to widely publish Yoshiki Takaya's work in a form that English speaking people can freely access it? or should we do it in a form where people are forced to actually purchase the original books.

of course the latter is the best thing to do. the right thing to do.

 

I welcome your feedback.

Posted

Option B is viable if we know it will attract attention is such a way to get the guarantee we need that Guyver will publish in English in most if not all English-speaking countries, and Guyver Advocacy doesn't get sued. The thing is we don't have a guarantee and the scanlations are slowly getting leaked to manga hosting sites.

Option A is probably viable, but Ryuki if it is possible for you set up a merchandise section for that would not only Guyver merchandise, but Tokusatsu, and (maybe) Mecha merchandise as well. Obviously, it's a monetary issue, and I think if we had ad revenue (reserved for the merchandise section) that may help.

Honesty, that may be the Option C we need.

Posted

A translation group that provides direct translations, leading in to scanlations, like Guyver Advocacy, cannot have their loyalty to both the author and the public simultaneously, as they have no authoritative right from the author expressing consent to the group for producing such work on the material.  ...

 

... Does it seem right to widely publish Yoshiki Takaya's work in a form that English speaking people can freely access it? ...

 

Ryuki, as it was previously mentioned, the Guyver Advocacy group has no authoritative right from the author of the Guyver series permitting the production of direct translations/scanlations on the Guyver manga.  Direct translations/scanlations are classified as derivative work.  However, the Guyver Advocacy group is not entitled to hold copyrights on its direct translation/scanlation work of the Guyver manga series, as sufficient consent requirements from the author are unavailable.  As the Guyver Advocacy group's intention is to provide accurate direct translations, leading in to scanlations, of the Guyver manga, the meaning of the work at the end result remains unchanged.  Providing an accurate representation of a manga series by a direct translation/scanlation in to another language does not exhibit substantial originality for individual copyrighting.  Intellectual property may be claimed by the Guyver Advocacy group on its direct translations/scanlations.  However, direct translations/scanlations of the Guyver manga is not copyrighted material by the Guyver Advocacy group when it is distributed.  The copyright stays, and will continue to remain, with the author of the Guyver manga series, until proper authorization is given by Yoshiki Takaya to make the actions of the group permissible, unless that the direct translations are part of a paid service by the group.

If the Guyver Advocacy group will continue to act as a publisher for the Guyver manga series, it must reconsider its position and activity by carefully evaluating the following quotations and their articles outlined below:

 

... Translations are a derivative work, and only the copyright owner can authorize a translation that will be distributed.  This envisions a work that is translated into another language and distributed in the parts of the world where that language is spoken.  Derivative works are infringing if they are not created with the permission of the copyright holder.  Thus, a work of fiction or a best-selling biography cannot be translated into French and distributed without the original author or copyright holder’s permission.  If the author authorizes a French translation, the author owns the copyright in the translation since it is a work for hire.  According to the statute, for a work for hire, the employing party is the author.  In fact, the translator’s name may not even be revealed in the work. ...

The translator is paid for his services, but in no way claims copyright in the translations he produces; the copyright is in the underlying article.  What happens when a company decides that it wants to digitize these works and make them available over the Internet?  Over the corporate intranet?

The answer is clear for distribution over the Internet:  the company has caused  an unauthorized derivative work to be created and has infringed the copyright in the original article by distributing the translation.  Posting something on the Internet is the equivalent of publishing the work.  Absent permission from the owner of the copyright in the article, posting is infringement. ...

 

Source: www.unc.edu/~unclng/copy-corner73.htm

 

... Only the copyright owner can authorize a translation that will be distributed.  This includes works that are translated into another language and distributed in parts of the world where that language is spoken.  Derivative works are infringing if they are not created with the permission of the copyright holder.  Thus, a work of fiction or a best-selling biography cannot be translated into another language and distributed without the original author’s or copyright holder’s permission.  If the author authorizes a translation, the author owns the copyright in the translation since the translation is a work for hire. ...

The translator is in such cases paid for his services, but in no way can s/he claim copyright in the translations produced; the copyright is in the underlying article.

However if the company digitizes these works and make them available over the internet, the company has caused an unauthorized derivative work to be created and therefore the company will be infringing the copyright in the original article by distributing the translation.  Posting something on the internet is the equivalent of publishing the work.  Therefore posting an article without permission from the owner of the copyright in the article is infringement.  Therefore even if it is possible that the publisher would grant permission for posting the translation on the intranet, permission should be requested before undertaking such distribution. ...

Source:  http://copyright.uslegal.com/enumerated-categories-of-copyrightable-works/translation/

 

... But if a bilingual speaker of one of those languages decides to translate the work so that a new audience could read it, he'd have to privately negotiate permission--a daunting task for someone already likely separated by geographic and linguistic barriers from the lawyers administering the book's copyright. And acting without permission evidently can have dire results, as some Polish movie fans discovered earlier this year.Yet these potential translators are trying to do something that will ultimately spread the knowledge contained in the book--the entire purpose of copyright in the first place. Copyright owners and their lawyers, of course, get concerned that the translated version doesn't result in compensation for the original author.

So let's compare these practical problems with the rationale for treating translations the same as other derivative works. The translated version, of course, flows from the original--the translation would not exist without it. Yet the translation isn't usually a creative alteration of the original author's creativity. In most cases, a translation is the same expression of that original author's creativity, merely reformatted for a different audience. ...

Source:  www.publicknowledge.org/node/1165/

 

... Making a derivative work

Permission.

Legally only the copyright owner has the right to authorise adaptations and reproductions of their work - this includes the making of a derivative work.

The copyright owner is generally the creator of the original work, or it may be someone the creator has given copyright to (i.e. next of kin).

Unless you are the copyright owner of the original work, you will probably need the permission of the copyright owner before making a derivative work. ...

Source:  www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p22_derivative_works

 

... According to the Copyright Advisory Network of the American Library Association, translators have a copyright to their translations, but need to obtain permission from the rights holder of the original work in order to publish that translation. ...

Source:  http://reliable-translations.blogspot.ca/2012/01/copyright-for-translations.html

 

... Since translating a novel or play from English to French creates an infringing derivative work, ...

Source:  www.mccormacklegal.com/blog/copyright-law-seattle/copyright-infringement-derivative-works-translating-computer-code-from-one-language-into-another

Posted

regardless of whether or not we are authorised to distribute our translation, it is still copyright to us.

we are not work for hire, so our translation does not belong to Yoshiki Takaya.

that is not to say, if he asked us to stop or to destroy our work, we would not listen to him.

If I got an email from Yoshiki Takaya asking me to remove all of our work from this server, including translation texts, then I would do so.

But it doesn't change the fact that I was not paid to do the translations I did, it is my own work and regardless of distribution rights, my work belongs to me.

The articles you provided underline those facts.

 

What I want to know is, what are you getting at, what was your specific point.

 

I'm not going to contend that what we have been doing is not legitimate, it's not authorised. If I could get an email to Yoshiki Takaya, I would do so, but in the past when I tried, it was impossible. So all any of us could do, to read guyver, is to do it in an unauthorised way. otherwise, every person here is forced to learn Japanese. What we do is unauthorised, but what is the bigger issues here is the issues of right and wrong.

two wrongs don't make a right for example.

I don't really like having to address legal definitions of what is somebody's property etc.

the fundamental basics of what copyright laws are supposed to be about, basically, what a person creates or works on producing is theirs and they decide what happens to it. if that person is unavailable to ask permission etc, then people need to work in a way that has that persons interests in mind. we do work and endeavour to look after yoshiki takayas best interests. that is our focus. that is our responsibility, to use what we do to try and benefit him. that is the spirit of copyright laws, and that is what we try and work by.

after all ,what is copyright law for, if not to help the creator to profit from their creation? 

I don't want to profit from my translations. if that isn't clear by now, then I'll state it to make it clear.  I want to take the work I do, that is my property, and any benefit that comes about from my work, should go to yoshiki takaya. That is my wish for my work.  so if some other site takes my work and uses it for their own profit, I think i have a right to be upset about that.

 

same goes for anyone else who contributes to the project.

Posted

scrutinize what? that they are yet another site that have took our work without permission?

the fact that they have removed our credits page?

the fact that our requests not to mirror our work have been ignored?

yes it is very gracious that they voted guyver at 97 percent when they are essentially violating the very i9dea of guyver advocacy. ...

 

In response to Ryuki's initial message in this thread, the Guyver Advocacy group does not have the right to feel violated, as its direct translations/scanlations cannot be claimed as copyrighted material by the group due to the lack of authorization for the direct translations/scanlations from the author of the Guyver manga, regardless if that the work was paid to the group.  Once that the direct translations/scanlations of the Guyver manga provided by the Guyver Advocacy group appear on the Internet, the group's unauthorized work is not permitted to be copyrighted by the group.  The Guyver Advocacy group does not have the right to claim copyright on its direct translations/scanlations of the Guyver manga series.  However, other parties to distribute such unauthorized direct translations/scanlations is not excusable as well.

 

... What I want to know is, what are you getting at, what was your specific point. ...

 

Ryuki, as it appears that you has started to reconsider your decision of the Guyver Advocacy group's activity on directly translating the Guyver manga, the previously posted message was intended to reinforce the state of your group's situation to ensure that it makes a well-informed decision of its future.  This will be the final attempt to answer questions that the Guyver Advocacy group may have lingering in the minds of its members, as there is no longer any more significant issues left to be expressed.

Posted

I'm getting a little bit tired of this.

Guyver Four, you are starting to come across as aggressive.

The last thing I want is to become on bad terms with you. I hope you don't have any ill intentions towards us.

the following page fully addresses the rights of a translator. the issue here is not the rights of the creator or if the work is authorised or not. everyone here is clear that the work is not authorised by the creator.

everyone here is clear that we are not legally entitled to distribute the work that we do.

 

however, you and somebody else keep saying that we do not have any right over our work. you are wrong.

http://www.cblesius.co.uk/articles/CopyrightAndTheTranslator-WhoOwnsYourTranslations.html

 

Does copyright subsist in a translation?

Even if you are infringing someone else's copyright or even if you are unlawfully translating someone else's work, your work will itself qualify for protection as an original copyright.

As a translator you have created something original. As long as you have not copied someone else's translation and providing you have not pledged your right to someone else, you still own the copyright.

 

Who owns the translation?

The author1 owns the translation. As a freelance translator, you as the author1 own the translation. However if you are an employee or a salaried worker, your employer is the owner of your translation. Authorship does not necessarily mean ownership in copyright terms. Under American law you can sign away your author's rights.

1. The author of the translation is me or durendal therefore we own it.

 

Now, we don't need to be flooded with multiple references to unrelated things. this article makes it very clear and is the first link in google for the terms 'translators copyright' .

please don't drag this out any more and please don't bleed this issue into other areas of the forum.

 

  • Like 2
Posted

I'm getting a little bit tired of this.

Guyver Four, you are starting to come across as aggressive.

The last thing I want is to become on bad terms with you. I hope you don't have any ill intentions towards us.

the following page fully addresses the rights of a translator. the issue here is not the rights of the creator or if the work is authorised or not. everyone here is clear that the work is not authorised by the creator.

everyone here is clear that we are not legally entitled to distribute the work that we do.

 

however, you and somebody else keep saying that we do not have any right over our work. you are wrong.

http://www.cblesius.co.uk/articles/CopyrightAndTheTranslator-WhoOwnsYourTranslations.html

 

 

Does copyright subsist in a translation?

Even if you are infringing someone else's copyright or even if you are unlawfully translating someone else's work, your work will itself qualify for protection as an original copyright.

As a translator you have created something original. As long as you have not copied someone else's translation and providing you have not pledged your right to someone else, you still own the copyright.

 

Who owns the translation?

The author1 owns the translation. As a freelance translator, you as the author1 own the translation. However if you are an employee or a salaried worker, your employer is the owner of your translation. Authorship does not necessarily mean ownership in copyright terms. Under American law you can sign away your author's rights.

1. The author of the translation is me or durendal therefore we own it.

 

Now, we don't need to be flooded with multiple references to unrelated things. this article makes it very clear and is the first link in google for the terms 'translators copyright' .

please don't drag this out any more and please don't bleed this issue into other areas of the forum.

 

The above quotations, within themselves, state that the author is given the copyright to a piece of work as being original material.  However, in conjunction with your initial message in this thread, the bigger issue with the Guyver Advocacy group's direct translations/scanlations is at the moment of when such works are presented out in an open space, in this case, the World Wide Web, as it is expressed in the following quotation taken from the same article:

 

... The term 'copyright' is selfexplanatory. It is the right to copy. This means that if you own the copyright in a literary creation you can prevent other people copying your work, issuing copies to the public, lending, renting out your work, and performing it in public (but not in private). You can also stop them from broadcasting it, making an adaptation or a translation of it.

This last point is important because a translator can only translate or adapt a work (to the extent that an adaptation is involved) with the consent of the original copyright owner. However, if this consent is granted and the translation is then produced, the work of the translator – who essentially is an author, too – is itself protected by copyright. ...

Source:  www.cblesius.co.uk/articles/CopyrightAndTheTranslator-WhoOwnsYourTranslations.html

Once direct translations/scanlations of the Guyver manga produced by the Guyver Advovacy group, without the proper authorization given from the author, are sent to the public, this is where that the power of the copyright for the group ends.  The Guyver Advocacy group cannot instruct others of what they can, or cannot, do with its direct translations/scanlations of the Guyver manga series.  If the direct translations/scanlations of the Guyver manga created by the Guyver Advocacy group are kept in private possession of the group, copyrights on the works would be a non-issue.  It is with the complete collection and connection of subjects contained in this last, and previously outlined, articles that a full comprehension on this matter can be attained.

As you have expressed dissatisfaction of my previous messages, further conversation of my thoughts concerning this topic will cease to exist in all threads, and apologise for the extended discussion that was introduced in the other areas of this forum.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I'm sorry for budging in and being a "closet fan" rather than a passionate contributor I would just like to give you another point of view on this whole business.

First of all:

after all ,what is copyright law for, if not to help the creator to profit from their creation? 

Thank, Ryuki, I had a good laugh. No offense, but copyright law nowadays suits the needs of the publisher, not the needs of the creator. We live in an imperfect world and that's just how it is. 

Secondly, Guyver Advocacy should continue their awesome work, because you guys are the ones who make a HUGE difference to all of the Guyver fans around the world who do not have the opportunity or will to learn quite complicated Japanese language. I, personally, live in Russia and here there is absolutely no chance of getting my hands on ANY Guyver merchandise that hasn't been released in the previous millennium. Literally.

Thirdly, no matter how hard you try and whatever you do, if people want to steal something they'll do it. And there is no preventing that. That's a sad truth. So maybe, instead of finding a way to PREVENT people from stealing your work, you should consider doing something that would PROMOTE your site. I believe this idea has been around for some time, but the way I see this is posting small bits of text on pages of scanlation advertising japan-legend and asking fans to be with the original scanlators. Idea's imperfect, but maybe it's boost the brainstorm.

Fourthly, being a Guyver fan ever since 1993, I really love the series and ache to know the story up to the end. However, being a rational man, I wouldn't do "anything" for that cause (and I believe that I represent the opinion of the most). I wouldn't want to buy original manga from Japan, as I hold no use for it. I don't need action figures or toys to play with, I'm just not a collector. What I want is to buy translated tankobons from whoever gives me such an opportunity. As it is impossible now, I would simply resort to paying Takaya-san for every issue he does directly, so that it would be more of a Kickstarter type of relations. I mean, I'm eager to give money to the series, I just don't want unnecessary things clogging my living space.

So, my question to the community is: Is there a way of supporting Guyver series and Takaya-san financially and directly? Hopefully, opinions I've shared won't offend "true" guyver fans.

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