The Soul

[ErutanXiku]

All this talk about God and Religion in my other thread reminded me of the time I was having a discussion with a colleague at my previous place of employment. The guy was great; he was great to talk to, very experienced about the world and had a military background. He was great company and I loved talking to him about anything philosophical and learned a lot from him.

I can't remember what made us get onto the topic; he was born and raised Catholic but renounced his faith and became an Atheist through his personal experience. I asked him that fair enough, he doesn't believe in God, but what was his opinion on the Soul since both are pretty much hand in hand. He said that there was no Soul; it's all chemical/electrical firings in the brain.

Now, I have a great faith in Science. I believe that Science and Faith can co-exist. However, that response didn't satisfy me as that only applies to the present state of ourselves. Thus, I would like to know, preferably from another Atheist or someone who can put forward a non-spiritual argument, a possible theory on what the Soul could be.

During this discussion with my colleague, he almost admitted that there may in fact be a Soul, or something within us that we can't explain, but I screwed up my line of questioning. I wasn't on a mission to convert, it was just to see what his opinion on the issue was.

My argument regarding the existence of a Soul, or something unexplained within us, is the intial Spark that let's us be who we are. Going back to the development stages of a foetus in utero, where does the Spark come from? From the moment of conception, if all we started out from was a simple ball of cells - cells that naturally possess electrical signals - what separates the ones that make it and those that don't? Where does the Spark come from that causes the brain or the heart (depending which has priority) of the foetus to "Switch On"?

I feel it is important for me to reiterate - this is just discussion, and I'd like to know what others can contribute to the subject.

[*Jess♥]

it is something that is beyond most people to understand or comprehend.

I'm not sure if i fully understand it...

but mostly your friend was correct.

most of our make-up is simply synapses firing and electricity etc.

this thing we call our body is a marvellously complex machine.

this machine is driven mostly by instinct just like many animals and as a machine, when it stop, it just stops.

but there is something in this machine.

something that is watching as these instincts play out. and this thing that is watching is also pulling strings and using this machine like a puppet.

this thing is ever knowing, ever present, is eternal and perfect. but when using the puppet has shut out the eternal knowledge in order to gain a fresh perspective. this method of shutting out the eternal gives this piece a designation. a name. but none of us know our name, we just know we are us and we are not everyone else.

this separation gives us an identity.

it's not very scientific though is it.

let us look at it from quantum theory. quantum theory states that an unobserved particle can be in any state. when it is observed, it becomes a set way.

what is it that observes the universe? if we are IN the universe then something must be observing us.

otherwise we would be everything and anything. we would be a mess of everything and nothing.

and of course each of us has this experience of watching. observing. we do it within ourselves. it's not very easy to measure though so we can't really stick a science label on it yet.

[Aether]

Ok after ediing my first post i'll just say what youre asking for is impossible...

thats a big thing to ask for a non spiritual arguement to what the soul may be???

im not someone whos against people believing in what they want to believe in, but to me aetheism is stupid. theres youre arguement. look around you, the divine is everywhere.

Ryuki pretty much summed it up in his non scientific part, and thats the thing,you can only dicuss this in terms of spitritual as youre talking of spirit.

there are only two things that actually exsist in the universe - consciousness and energy. wavicles and dual particle pairs support all this. this is the reason science will never know it all, you can not quantify consciousness , soul or spirit. or even energy ...you can say everything is electricity, but electricity cant be broken down or described anymore than saying its power or energy. but just think about that, what is electricity? what is inside electricity? what powers this energy. we will never know.

if scientists cant fully explain energy something tangible as such, how will they ever explain consciousness??

our physical bodies are energy at a state that seems solid- our brains are the computer that runs the body through the central nervous system and houses our consciousness. switch off communication from the consciousness and the body will live as a vegetable or just die. reverse the situation and its not the same, consciousness will live on.

the ghost in the shell.

depending how you think or what you believe ,you hit some semantics (my pet hate - the fact nothings clearly defined in stuff like this) the soul is that ghost that inhibits the body and will live on (forever????) where as the spirit is the life force, or the 'spark' that drives you . you get that from your parents, an original energy combined of both parents, that keeps you going until you die.

i think we are a mix of

our superconsciousness- that of the soul that inhibits the physical

the souls energy body

the energy/ spark/spirit given to us by our parents

the DNA of our ancestors

the influence of the planets and galactic alignments we were born and concieved under

our conscious self- the sum of the total of our experiences now in this life

what is it that observes the universe?

its us. every living thing observes and experiences, we are all one consciounsess experiencing itself subjectively.

we are 'everything and nothing', the ego is the only thing that stops us being one, but also allows us to experience ourself. the UNI verse.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Eether

[durendal]

To clarify my position, I was raised a Catholic, but now I'm agnostic.

I believe that religion and science can be mixed together as long as the church stops being a hypocrit. As for the soul, our current technology may be insufficient to measure this, or even detect it's tangibility. Everything has a science to it, and only things that are unexplainable do we refer this to Religion. But as technology progress, some beliefs we have in our religion are being explained through science, and I believe this may also be true with the soul. The soul may be waves, radiation or some form of invisible force. When one passes away, why are there ghosts? Perhaps these ghosts are the remnants of the conciousness of those who passed away. What are these remnants? Could this be the very soul that we are talking about? Who knows, we still don't have the technology to know the truths behind these. But I still believe that what we call a "soul" may be called another "medium" in science.

[ErutanXiku]

(I apologise, but this is going to be a long post.)

Very interesting...I know this is a difficult topic, and I'm not looking for an easy answer. This is something that can be debated on for infinity, until someone finally figures it out...but I doubt it's something anyone will ever know. It just interests me, since the existence of the Soul is considered a Spiritual belief enforced by Religion, but Atheists don't believe in Religion (or a Soul for that matter, as perhaps admitting there may be such a thing somehow infers that you are Religious) however...there is definitely something unexplainable within us.

I guess I should make this clear, but the definitions as pertains to me (since I brought it up) are as follows:

Soul - The unexplained entity within us.

Spiritual - The belief that there is a higher power, not necessarily God, but follow no Religion or don't practice it. Perhaps this is really Agnostic? But what makes me not label it as such, is that Agnostics infer the possibility but fall back and say that nothing's for certain. Being Spiritual, in my definition, is knowing/accepting that there is something out there, but unless you follow a Religion or actively practice it, your belief isn't Religious-based.

Religious - Beliefs based on the Religion you follow.

Religion gives us the easy answer - the Soul; we are all Spiritual entities inhabiting Physical Vessels. However, this doesn't satisfy me as it only explains consciousness and the reason for our awareness. It also takes it that step further to be a lullaby; to make us feel better about death in that when we die, we pass on into the afterlife - Heaven; Hell or Purgatory. For some, the Soul is reincarnated until it reaches a level of enlightenment that makes it elegible to enter Paradise - whatever your faith, it promises that you will live on eternally since not doing so frightens us. This is why so many people are desperate to leave a mark; some proof that they existed...I'm no different.

Science gives a slightly more complicated answer, but again it explains consciousness and our present states. I accept the Scientific view - it does more to explain what we are and the complex network of cells that make us up. I accept that the reason I like a particular flavour of ice-cream is down to how my sensory receptors relay the message to my brain and set off the synapses and promotes the release of the appropriate "feel good" neurotransmitter. Though, what interests me about this example is other people - if we both eat the same thing and they both taste the same, why might our reactions be different? Is it down to genetics or upbringing? I, in particular, do not like the feeling of Suede fabric, but have known people who love it.

But that's besides the point. Science can't explain the Soul. It can explain what we are in our present states, but not what the Soul is. I don't think the Soul is what it is in the Religious sense either - if they were divine entities, then surely they wouldn't be capable of evil acts and wrongdoings; everyone would have more respect for each other. Behavioural Psychology explains a lot of the reasons behind the things we do.

For me, as stated in the opening post, the Soul is something from the very beginning. The "Spark" that switches us on...where it comes from is the question.

For a long time, I believed that the Soul was the way people depict it in TV - a Spiritual representation of our present selves. But my thoughts changed when I watched a documentary on Head Transplants. It's hard to tell if the animal was the same as it was before the transplant, since there's no way to tell if it liked the same things or not (assuming the Soul really is Spiritual). Obviously, for ethical reasons, they haven't done it on Humans yet...as far as anyone knows.

At the root of it, I'm not asking for a definite answer. Perhaps, I phrased it wrong, but if you don't believe in the Religious Soul, then how do you explain the "Spark"? How do you explain that fundamental difference, between those that make it and those that don't? Foetuses all develop in the same way; some are completely healthy throughout, but what causes the Spark to never occur, despite being the union of two cells that contain their own electrical energies, that were healthy enough to unite in the first place? That's something that can't be explained, but surely it points to the presence of something? The cells can create the heart and the brain, but something has to tell it to do its job - the brain, which governs our bodies in life, didn't govern our development at conception.

Regarding electricity and what it is, I was under the impression that Science had explained it. It's the movement of negatively charged atoms attracted to positively charged ones? Or is that just my interpretation of what it is based on what Science has given us?

That leads me onto another line of thought that I've been entertaining, but it's for a completely different topic...

As for the presence of Ghosts/Spirits...you have to believe in that for it to apply, and I don't...well not really. But then, there are so many things that will be left unexplained and will denounce any non-Spiritual argument, like people who claim to have past lives and out of body experiences...

Though I have an interesting theory that involves String Theory/Multiple Realities. I will deviate from the subject just for this - based on these theories, our Reality inhabits the same space as all other Possible Realities, and thus each one quite possibly developing at different rates. Thus, at the time our present is occurring, an event in the past (or future) of our timeline is also occurring in another Reality. Our brains have hidden potential, and perhaps there are those who are more sensitive than others to these kinds of things, but perhaps the "Ghosts/Spirits" one may speak of are actually visions of the Alternate Reality where the deceased still exist? The accounts I've most often heard, have ghosts/spirits repeating the same actions they did in life. This would also, perhaps, explain the "deja vu" sensation...

Of course, that's just my unfounded theory. If this piece is too distracting, I'm happy to put it in another thread?

Edited March 29, 2011 by ErutanXiku

[Aether]

i'd say considering that the topic of the soul is so vast it might be an idea to start a new topic for alternate realities

the last i read of superstring theory i didnt like it and i dont really agree with your paticular alternate reality theory with ghosts etc. but i'd say that every sperm and egg is a potential different reality. wether they manifest somewhere else or not is another thing.

after a first draft of this reply and pontificating on a lot of points im just going to leave off and address a direct comment to me

Regarding electricity and what it is, I was under the impression that Science had explained it. It's the movement of negatively charged atoms attracted to positively charged ones? Or is that just my interpretation of what it is based on what Science has given us?

science has explained it as much as it can.

these are only descriptions of what is happening not really explanations or definitions . like electromagnetism they cant explain it, only describe its properties. charge is the word we use to define an amount of power. read anything on electricity and it mentions charge.what is charge?.it exists in the opposed atoms that make up electric currents ,so electricity is a product of 2 charges, and these two atomic powers make a third power, but what is charge/power itself?? motion?vibration?but still what causes it in the first place?

lets look at what they use to describe electricity. the atom. what makes up the atom ? science says sub atomic particles, neutrons, quarks, leptons, gluons, photons etc. and then of course the now popular search for the higgs boson particle to confirm their new subatomic model theories. say they find the higgs boson. then what? it will enable us to no doubt to understand a little bit more of the universe WE inhabit and build some more advanced stuff, which is all very nice, but then dont you want to know what the higgs boson is made of? whats inside that? then whats inside that which is inside that?? then how does that relate to dark matter and dark energy etc etc. im sure you get my point.

do i need to understand how light works to see? or how sound works to hear?? no. i just can. it's not blind faith if its experienced. i experience it everday. when over the course of thousands of years certain humans have experienced esp, telepathy, claravoiyance, astral travel etc.how can you deny they exsist? just because a physicist hasnt written an equation to explain it or built a machine to measure it, doesnt mean it doesnt exsist?? this applys especially to the soul.

over the years ive come to find that the more you look at stuff you should realize, that theres always a deeper level when it comes to science and always a higher level when it comes to spirituality.

[*Jess♥]

do i need to understand how light works to see? or how sound works to hear?? no. i just can. it's not blind faith if its experienced.

Eether FTW!!

I love this. very cool.

[ErutanXiku]

Oho! Ow, I felt that one! XD

I never said you had to like my theory on Ghosts/Spirits/Alternate Realities, I just put it out there to highlight what helps me sleep at night since I don't believe in Ghosts/Spirits. I don't need one more thing to be afraid of in my life - yes, I'm a creature of convenience.

I am curious though, what did your original draft entail?

As for what "charge" is (I realise we're going off topic, but it'd be rude to just ignore it) I'm under the impression that it has no definite Scientific Property/Value, but is a term to describe the state of an Atom, i.e. if it has more electrons than it should, it is negatively charged. As for the source of the vibration - Atoms vibrate due to the presence of energy, the more energy there is the more violently they vibrate and they begin to collide with each other to make new substances. The source of this energy could be anything; present from the Earth or the light from the Sun. It's been a few years since I've had to think about all of this and my Physics is a little rusty, so if I'm mistaken anywhere, I'll rectify it once I get through the research.

Regarding the Higgs Boson, isn't that just to prove the theory that all Matter has Anti-Matter? I think it came about because of Quarks - they exist, but are too small to measure the matter of and so they need to prove the existence of the Higgs Boson to enforce that...? Again, despite having read about this a few times, the information still likes to wander off...Scientists are a tedious bunch, but hey, they need something to occupy their time with and yeah, it may lead to new breakthroughs that will ultimately aid or destroy us, based on who pulls the strings.

---

Now, time to get back to the original programming...

do i need to understand how light works to see? or how sound works to hear?? no. i just can. it's not blind faith if its experienced.

I agree, this statement is good, but it's natural argument is to turn it against itself. If a person is born deaf, thus never being able to experience sound, does that mean that they can never understand how sound works?

I'm not saying that Science can quantify everything. I did highlight that whatever Science may say to explain the Soul, will be disproven without the proper thought, as there are phenomenena like ESP; Telepathy; Astral Travel etc. that may not be taken into account when forming Scientific theories.

Though, once again, I have my own theory on this and I doubt you'd like it since it's suited to my needs and helps me sleep at night, because again...I don't need something else to fear

But bottom line, I do believe in ESP; Telepathy; Astral Travel...all those things that can't be explained, but I don't have a Spiritually-based theory to support it. Rather, it's based on the idea that there are hidden secrets to the brain that we haven't evolved to the level of unlocking yet, as well as a smidge of my Atomic-based theory that I alluded to in my earlier post.

[Aether]

Oho! Ow, I felt that one! XD

hope im not coming accross as attacking your thoughts because thats not what im trying to do

I never said you had to like my theory on Ghosts/Spirits/Alternate Realities, I just put it out there to highlight what helps me sleep at night since I don't believe in Ghosts/Spirits. I don't need one more thing to be afraid of in my life - yes, I'm a creature of convenience.

thats fair enough but dont be afraid..then thats half the battle won. i might be scared of sharks but its very unlikely i'll ever have to confront one!

I am curious though, what did your original draft entail?

life the universe and everything

As for what "charge" is (I realise we're going off topic, but it'd be rude to just ignore it)

ive already explained my thoughts on energy.

---

Now, time to get back to the original programming...

do i need to understand how light works to see? or how sound works to hear?? no. i just can. it's not blind faith if its experienced.

I agree, this statement is good, but it's natural argument is to turn it against itself. If a person is born deaf, thus never being able to experience sound, does that mean that they can never understand how sound works?

i get your point but, no. a deaf person can experience sound - as vibration - they just cant hear it. that wasnt the point anyway.

the point was that theres no need to understand something for it to work or for it to exsist.

therefore people who say that the soul doesnt exisit because theres no offical explanation of it are kind of denying that they are even alive.

its hard to put myself in the position of such people. they just dont think or see the world in the same way.

some say our spirit leaves us everynight. that would be the same as the deaf person scenario. as the deaf person can experience sound waves but not hear them, we can astrally travel but we dont readily experience it, apart from in a skewed way through parts of dreams. nevertheless it could still be happening. do i need to understand how it works for it to work, or for it to happen??? no.

But bottom line, I do believe in ESP; Telepathy; Astral Travel...all those things that can't be explained, but I don't have a Spiritually-based theory to support it. Rather, it's based on the idea that there are hidden secrets to the brain that we haven't evolved to the level of unlocking yet, as well as a smidge of my Atomic-based theory that I alluded to in my earlier post.

you dont neeed a spiritually based theory to prove any of those things apart from astral travel . and really its the other way round, we do have the ability to unlock the hidden secrets, we always have from a certain part in time. its just that its not so easy. especially with the way modern civilization lives.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Eether

[ErutanXiku]

Oho! Ow, I felt that one! XD

hope im not coming accross as attacking your thoughts because thats not what im trying to do

On the contrary, your words had quite an impact in that I remember feeling the same way about everything before I became who I am now. Not saying that you'll end up like me, but I respect and recognise your opinion and I understand it because I shared them at one point

As for everything else you said, true. You don't need to know how things work for it to happen/exist/be a possibility. That's enough for most people who just accept things as they are, but then you have the inquisitive minds who, as you know, ask "Why?" These people are just not satisfied until they have a quantitative answer to explain something that otherwise is accepted to be "just is". I am perhaps one of those people, to an extent. When I can't find an answer, I leave it be, otherwise...I would like to know the reasons for why certain things happen, and the more complex it is, the more I'm convinced of a higher power at work.

Regarding Astral Travel, with my theory, it may work, but then its just something I think about for entertainment. You may be right in that we do have the ability to unlock the hidden secrets and potential within ourselves, but think about it for a minute. You may not agree with me on this, nor accept it, I don't mind, but this is my reasoning:

Our subconscious is a very complex part of our brains. It's locked away from us and governs everything that we do naturally, like breathing and regulating our heartbeat. If these important tasks were left up to our conscious selves, we'd have to remember to do it. Also, the subconscious knows what it needs for the body to survive. Our conscious selves may not consider eating certain things, like the eyes of an animal, but with no other option, the subconscious will make it appear appetising and we'll eat it for the nutrients we need to ensure our survival.

These are examples to facilitate my reasoning as to the subconscious being more aware of ourselves than our conscious selves are. Thus, I believe that only the subconscious knows the true extent of what we're capable of, but because we're too immature to use our full abilities responsibly, these secrets are locked away until we as a species are worthy for the keys, and until then the subconscious protects our individual beings for fear that given the knowledge too early, we may cause severe harm to ourselves and everything around us. This lock isn't only imposed on Humans, but is also placed upon animals, though certain animals have abilities that we would deem unnatural because we can't do them, like regrowing limbs or switching genders. Could you imagine the chaos that would ensue because there are those who would misuse these abilities?

My theory on Atoms earlier - I figure I may as well go into it - started out as a simple idea on Humans being able to one day harness the natural bio-electricity generated by our cells. Doing so would grant us electrical-based powers, or perhaps allow us to regulate the burning of excess energy. Then, thinking about it deeper, we're all made up of Atoms, so if we can harness the energy in our cells, then surely we could manipulate the countless number of Atoms that make up those cells? Doing so would give us an even greater range in the possibilities of phenomena that we could create, such as creating fire without fuel or changing the properties of objects...perhaps even changing the nature of our bodies.

However, that in itself is dangerous because of all the different ways one could harm/destroy themselves and their surroundings, and so we have these limitations placed upon us.

I know...sometimes I wonder what the hell kind of trip I'm on, but it makes for good Sci-Fi talk :/

Anyway, not that I'm bothered by it...but I'm very bad at keeping this topic on track...If anyone wants to discuss the whole Atom theory in more depth, I'd be happy to start a new topic on it, or feel free to do so yourselves

I apologise for side-tracking too much.

[Aether]

dont feel bad for going off topic. i m probably more responsible for that than yourself

ha ha... you never know -you might end up back like me again. i never just accepted things though, i was very inquisitive, always wanted to know why and researched a lot of historical and metaphysical stuff over the years. any small amount of ''knowledge'' i spew in the theories and ideas thread is mostly from stuff i read over at least 5 years ago as thats when i stopped my active search, i often have trouble recalling exact pieces but the general stuff is there. i know i dont have all the answers as a cohesive whole but i have a few of the pieces. enough for me anyway.

eventually i came to the understanding that all you need to know is that you'll never know it all.

instead of chasing massive questions i try to find the answers in front of me. this might be cryptic, but then its useless giving someone else advice who hasnt had their paticular thirst quenched. of course i still have an interest but i used to be obsessive. im no longer like that.

i agree that the subconscious is locked, but its able to be opened. i dont think you can talk of it happening as a species,except over a vast period of time where it may catch up to everyone. we may be all human but as much as we are the same physically there are a lot of different types of people where the conscious is concerned.

of course there needs to be security , for the individual and those around them. there are people who would not be fit to wield such power and even if a person is ready to experience it they may not like it. i think to begin with you have to have to be a certain type of person and think in acertain way to entertain this stuff seriously...only a certain amount of people seriously think of the stuff we are on about here. and then out of those people only a portion of them will pursue it. out of those only a few will find the means to pursue it and out of those only a few will attain it.

i'd say your theory on atoms is correct . and that this isnt really sci- fi its sci- fact. its just to what degree. yes we might not be talking yoda n his prime powers, but some of this stuff is real.

ill leave this now to get the topic back on track

Edited March 31, 2011 by Eether

[*YoungGuyver]

Religion vs Science?

There are several religions, each a set of beliefs and doctrines. Many try to convince you that they are describing the universe. Science, when used by people that don't let their egos get in the way, is a method for LEARNING and discovering what the universe really is. In other words, religion is an entity or group of people telling you, and science is observation and experimentation to discover it for ourselves.

And it is true, science can never define the complete universe/multiverse. Neither can religion. Unless you are using basic terms that is. And if you use basic/generalized terms, there will be exceptions to the rules that you create. A full explanation is impossible because any book/brain that is used to define the universe is also a part of the universe, and you would need another book/brain to explain the first. It would be a turtle on a turtle, unless done as a mobius loop (which is an interesting infinity), which would wither mean that the book defines the universe is already defining the book. The probability of that being true is small.

Ultimately, science is a tool. The whole universe CAN be understood, just never all at once. That would violate the laws of thermodynamics. So neither religion or science will ever describe the universe completely.

As for the divine being everywhere, where exactly are you pointing? What are you referring to as divine?

That is a very interesting statement, and one that you will have a tough time proving, as it is a matter of opinion. Best of luck to you. People go on about how the complexity of the human body is equivalent to exploding random parts into the air and having them fall to the ground in the form of a working computer, but they forget that the human body is filled with bugs and errors and things that constantly fail and serve very little purpose to begin with. They say the universe is so big, and so it must have been created by a powerful god-but if a god really created a universe, it would more likely be small, with no NEED for it to be this wasteful and big. Why would a god even bother with something the size of a galaxy with so few potential stars capable of life? How many planets in our star system actually serve a purpose on a day to day basis? How significant are things such as Jupiter's gravity and faint light to our souls? The larger the universe is, the far more likely it is that our existence is created by nothing more than random chance reaction-for in a large enough universe, the chance of life randomly forming becomes higher, and the need for a god to 'assemble a computer', lower.

As for souls, brain damage.

If a soul is the essence of what puppets our body, then we must acknowledge the possibility of our body shaping and changing a soul. Indeed, it must. What would be the point of interacting with the universe if it does not affect you? In other words, a soul would not be puppeteering a body, it would be linked with a body in some way shape or form. And that leaves it vulnerable to brain damage.

We can argue against the existence of a soul by remembering that people whom suffer from brain damage in certain parts of the brain can have complete personality changes. It is as if they become different people. If the soul is what makes us who we are, then brain damage should NEVER affect us in this way.

Don't get me wrong, for some reason I believe in a soul, and am spiritual. I am also scientific. I am really curious to see what the soul is, as I do not believe it would be anything separate from the universe. So perhaps one day, science will be capable of defining it if it really exists.

[*Jess♥]

Why would a god even bother with something the size of a galaxy with so few potential stars capable of life? How many planets in our star system actually serve a purpose on a day to day basis? How significant are things such as Jupiter's gravity and faint light to our souls? The larger the universe is, the far more likely it is that our existence is created by nothing more than random chance reaction-for in a large enough universe, the chance of life randomly forming becomes higher, and the need for a god to 'assemble a computer', lower.

This is interesting because it mirrors the self centred nature of our race.

we assume that life is the only worthwhile thing.

what brings us to the conclusion that is something is not alive, it is worthless?

what is so worthless about a dead piece of space dust?

can't a dead piece of space dust be just as worthy of marvel and wonder?

as we are not a god, we do not have any experience of what is important to a god and for all we know the way a piece of dust moves and floats is just as interesting as how we behave on a day to day basis.

also, who is to say that a dead piece of space dust does not have soul? since we do not have any real way of describing or detecting a soul, then how can we really say otherwise?

personally, I don't see a soul as the sum of my personality. a vast percentage of my personality is determined by my life experience and the things my brain has learned. when it comes to deciding which parts of me can be considered as my soul, I find it difficult to quantify. but my feeling is that it is the thing that decides how my thoughts and experiences are used. it is the manner in which i make decisions. it is the manner in which i make those decisions that are thought of as irrational. not based on weighing up alternatives and making a logical choice.

[ErutanXiku]

As for the divine being everywhere, where exactly are you pointing? What are you referring to as divine?

That is a very interesting statement, and one that you will have a tough time proving, as it is a matter of opinion.

True, but as you said it is a matter of opinion and as such one's interpretation of what is "Divine" is not necessarily the same as someone else's. The common meaning of "Divine" relates to God and his work, however, for me it's the belief that the world itself has a deeper plan. Everything, no matter how insignificant we think of it, is in balance and that is itself "Divine" to me. I don't think it's done to a plan dictated by a disembodied "Higher Power", I find it fascinating that even if our existence is an elaborate accident, that under normal circumstances this Planet of ours is in balance. Everything that exists upon it works to maintain it. There is surely something Divine and Beautiful in how it all works.

Going deeper, have you heard of the Divine Number/Golden Ratio (1.618)? It, apparently, exists everywhere - from the arrangement of branches on a tree to the branching of the veins and nerves of all animals. Even underlying the clock cycles of our brainwaves.

As for souls, brain damage.

If a soul is the essence of what puppets our body, then we must acknowledge the possibility of our body shaping and changing a soul. Indeed, it must. What would be the point of interacting with the universe if it does not affect you? In other words, a soul would not be puppeteering a body, it would be linked with a body in some way shape or form. And that leaves it vulnerable to brain damage.

We can argue against the existence of a soul by remembering that people whom suffer from brain damage in certain parts of the brain can have complete personality changes. It is as if they become different people. If the soul is what makes us who we are, then brain damage should NEVER affect us in this way.

In the case of the Religious Soul, this is where Daemons come in. Since Science hasn't attempted to fully explain the Soul - I highlight a marked difference in explaining how we operate day-to-day and what operated us before we had the awareness to - their take is the more logical one that is backed up with quantified evidence; that changes in personality are due to certain parts of the brain being damaged that otherwise played a part in regulating our behaviour.

So, YoungGuyver, if you don't mind me asking, what is your take on a non-spiritual theory for the Soul? As I have said, I don't think the Soul is who I am now - the "awareness" of my conscious self. It would be nice and to be proven wrong in the end, that I am a spiritual entity inhabiting this body, but I don't believe that...I just believe it is something there, from the beginning and it's probably locked within the subconscious - with it our bodies are allowed to live and develop, without it our bodies die. People in a coma or life-support still possess it as their bodies continue to function. I know you can say that they're kept alive because of the machines, but then what about in an operating theatre? If it was the machines that kept them alive, then why can't they keep a body that has already stopped alive? Surely it's all about shooting in a voltage of electricity before the brain completely switches off (it's been said that it still fires signals for some time after "Death") and stimulating the heart to pump again?

I guess this is why a Spiritual argument is also more favourable, and perhaps it is true - that were all spirits controlling puppets.

[*V Guyver]

As a former catholic myself, I've dabbled in philosophical and scientific nature of life and life after death, and the universe itself. Currently, I follow a mixed number of concepts, Individualism being what I consider the closest to me.

From what I've read, this has proven to be a very fantastic topic, Haven't seen this open minded and multi-viewpoint oriented format in a while. Usually I discuss this and people ramble on about what someone TOLD them or lecturing me about god and how any other idea is ridiculous, even when I discuss the parallels to religion.

I always figured a human soul, if it exists is a form of energy. Since Energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. I can't but help think that it's something that fits the description. If you dwell further in, you can find more paralleled aspects. No one knows what happens to energy after it's use. Granted there is a process of converting it, even after we die, what reminds of our body is energy that is in essence broken down and given to the next life form or stored as a mineral, but what about the left overs, and the dispersed energy that isn't used up? it disperses, I have yet to be given an explanation nor read of one. I can only conclude two things, it's absorbed into other things like electrons are, or dispersed into subspace. Frankly, energy is something that's eternal, reusable, and if a soul is in existence, it can very well be the source of reincarnation.

I've been attacked once for talking about how souls if in existence likely inhabit all life and not just humans, I can't limit the scope of what a soul, and much less energy is in the function of something alive, even if it's merely a philosophical quasi-science hypothesis. One of my cousins even mocked me when I said my plant passed away, Saying it "wasn't an animal". Will I digress, we humans function almost no different then other life, and just because we are sentient makes us no different.The person who attacked me uttered before the assaulted stated "That we were given thought by and are above animals. How can you say that?" Well, I told them we were no different that monkey's and Dog's. I got punched afterwards when I offered proof when I mentioned the acts of feral humans. He must of felt threatened in his believes and reacted as such.

From what I've learned, Human learning ability, and conditioning is really all that separates us, when a human baby is separated from fellow human beings at birth and raised by wild animals, they develop as animals, where is the intelligence and problem solving skills they lack, even speech? Even when captured and returned to society, then barely learn anything or expand. Frankly, at that point, they are truly no different then monkey's in ability to learn because they never grew the neural pathways to understand speech, nor speak it.. so I can only deduce that if Human's have souls, then most certainly animals due. And denying the possibility of a soul in those beings, thus this means the concept shouldn't be applied to use.

All this brings me back to the movie Gettysburg, I remember the scene as a kid when they were talking about the Divine Spark found in humans, but supposable not found in blacks, the Scottsman serving the American Union. Ahh, in fact I looked up and managed to find the whole darn thing for posterity.

Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain: Tell me something, Buster. What do you think of Negroes?

Pvt. Buster Kilrain: Well, if you mean the race, I don't really know. This is not a thing to be ashamed of. The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time.

Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain: To me, there was never any difference.

Pvt. Buster Kilrain: None at all?

Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain: None at all. Of course, I haven't known that many freed men, but those I knew in Bangor, Portland, you look in the eye, there was a man. There was a "divine spark," as my mother used to call it. That is all there is to it. Races are men. "What a piece of work is man. How infinite in faculties, in form and moving. How express and admirable. In action, how like an angel."

Pvt. Buster Kilrain: Well, if he's an angel, all right then. But he damn well must be a killer angel. Colonel, darling, you're a lovely man. I see a great vast difference between us, yet I admire you, lad. You're an idealist, praise be. The truth is, Colonel, there is no "divine spark." There's many a man alive no more of value than a dead dog. Believe me. When you've seen them hang each other the way I have back in the Old Country. Equality? What I'm fighting for is the right to prove I'm a better man than many of them. Where have you seen this "divine spark" in operation, Colonel? Where have you noted this magnificent equality? No two things on earth are equal or have an equal chance. Not a leaf, not a tree. There's many a man worse than me, and some better, but I don't think race or country matters a damn. What matters, Colonel, is justice. Which is why I'm here. I'll be treated as I deserve. Not as my father deserved. I'm Kilrain, and I damn all gentlemen. There is only one aristocracy, and that is right here. (taps his temple) And that's why we've got to win this war.

[*Jess♥]

I do not think either is wrong or correct.

do animals have a soul? the same as a human soul? yes and no.

there is energy in everything. the way i see it, the energy pattern is what determines the nature of something.

so the soul is as different as the physical appearance.

the qualities are different.

like, I believe the awareness of things like grasshoppers, is shared between the entire species. and there are also energy patterns that weave throughout nature and form a different kind of consciousness. it s not the kind of thing we can completely relate to, but it exists nonetheless.

this is why evolution appears to be intelligent. and it is how an ant colony can so efficiently build amazing structures.

[*V Guyver]

I agree, can't really say there is a right or wrong, thus far it's beyond our current limitations to pass a judgement on such a matter. someone who demands you see his point is likely being a bigot. I try avoiding that, to no avail at times. XD

I'm not sure about physical relation to a body, but I can see the logic in that, but I also can note that energy can be amazingly condensed. A small atom divided is more powerful then a typical chemical or biological in a much larger scale. So I wonder about what role a body plays, I mean, if ghosts or souls are masses of spiritual energy that hasn't dissipated, then I think that, perhaps that are merely sticking to the form they are most familiar with instead of the other forms they could possibly take.

[*Jess♥]

how about this:-

when we consider subatomic particles, we see talk about quarks and gluons and whatnot. the thing is, scientists could not detect these things in the past, and you or I had no way of knowing about them.

the way these things are arranged create various forces such as magnetic force, gravity force, etc. there is easily a way for these things to be arranged in such a way that they do not interact with our own particles but do interact with each other.

this would happen in much the same way as that particle that scientists detect but goes right through us all the time.

there is a pool of water deep underground for detecting these things but i can't remember what they are.

so how many types of particles are interacting in the same space as you or I?

we wouldn't know because the properties of those particles don't affect our particles.

there could be a being just like you or I, walking right through me at this moment.

but there is nothing to say these particles cannot produce certain ways of interacting with us?like. maybe those particles can create electromagnetic fields under certain circumstances?

[durendal]

This reminds me of a Poem that i once took to heart.

And to quote:

"Tell me not, in mournful numbers,

Life is but an empty dream-

For the soul is dead that slumbers,

and things are not what they seem.

Life is real! Life is earnest!

and the grave is not its goal,

Dust thou art, to dust returnest

was not spoken of the soul"

-Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

[ErutanXiku]

I honestly meant to reply to this sooner, but I felt it warranted further thought, and found that I couldn't really add anything else to the discussion.

V Guyver, what you have said is a more detailed version of what I strongly believe. I don't just believe that Humans are the only beings to possess a "Soul" - all life possesses one because they exist and are "Alive". Humans aren't the only ones to possess 'thought' either - animals clearly do also as they can learn and adapt; their language just happens to be different. They also feel pain and emotions, but again we just can't understand each other verbally, much like adult Humans can't understand a person who speaks another language or (for an example of a language we still haven't learned) even Human babies.

What Ryuki said is interesting, though I must admit it took me a few times going over it to have it make sense to me But I think it's safe to say that I understand what you're suggesting.

All this talk has given me a rather interesting idea for a novel...*sigh* That's another one to add to my "To Write" list...I told my brother about my ideas, and for some reason he always says they're scary, even though they're not horror, but I understand what he means, hehe.

Durendal, that poem is quite thought-provoking

[durendal]

Meh, it goes on and on about victories, being heroic, leaving things behind and what you achieved in your life.

Basically it's saying that you should live life to the fullest.

Now that I think about it, it has nothing to do with the topic.

So not to veer too off the topic, I'd like to think of the soul as something parellel to Alpha Waves.