Theories on the Gigantic Exceed(XD)

[*BananaKing]

I don't think they've had the oppurtunity. They could with the guyver because they had the guyver 2 unit to study, but they don't have a gigantic amongst them to study

[LordSpleach]

But through recorded battle data, Chronos figured out the Gigantic(normal) was 20 times stronger than the Guyver and the Gigasmasher was 100 times more powerful than the Megasmasher.

[*zeo]

I agree Ryuki, but don't you find it the Wales Purgatorium could destroy Shinjuku, yet the Ultimate/Final Blaster Tempest powered by solar radiation could destroy all of Tokyo. Either Khan wouldn't charge the beam completely, or the fact that ZX-Tole becoming a lost number gave him that ability.

Slight confusion here I believe. . . Let's clarify that the Final Blaster Tempest would only have destroyed Tokyo if it had hit the ground. Neo ZX-Tole Final Blast Tempest was a One Million degree heat beam! Basically this means his attack would have triggered a nuclear explosion, because you heat any form of matter to a million degrees and you get fusion, as the matter breaks down into energy. Something like the effect shown in the movie Independance Day when the alien ships fired their main weapon into the ground and it created devastation for miles around. Or in other words the beam was so hot it would have made the target area explode for extra collateral damage.

But the Final Blaster Tempest was countered and over powered by the Gigantic's Giga Smashers, resulting in a blast wave sufficient to injure Purg'Stall who was flying over the city at the time but the city itself was unharmed.

Sho's estimates as Exceed was that the resulting blast wave of their two beams slamming into each other by itself would be enough to destroy Shinjuku. So if Sho did nothing and let the beam hit the ground then it would have done far more damage as then 100% of the beam energy would hit the city versus the fraction that gets by as the two opposing beams countered each other.

So we can conclude Khan's Wales Purgatorium was indeed far more powerful than Neo ZX-Tole's Final Blaster Tempest. And we shouldn't assume a target has to be completely covered by the radius of the beam weapon in order for the beam to be able to destroy the whole target.

Like a Meteor or Comet impact can hit a small area but cause damage that can effect the whole planet, so too can extremely powerful energy weapon attacks can cause significant collateral damage.

True BK, there is no official multiplier yet for the Gigantic Exceed yet. I'm surprised Chronos hasn't done a analysis yet.

The numbers may be too much for them to accept, scientist don't like it when formulas put out insane numbers.

Just look at how long it took to calculate the energy output of the Star Wars Death Star? (Check my interesting news topic)

[*Jess♥]

hey zeo, I had not considered that. well actually it's something i would never have known had i not specifically looked it up!

but anyway...

lordspleach, i think you brushed ove rhte part where i said i thik it must be distance related.

neozxtole was in orbit. draglord was a lot lower down as i am aware.

could be wrong though... I just get teh impression that he was closer to the city.

[LordSpleach]

Thanks for the clarfication, zeo.

[*Jess♥]

i just confirmed..

neo zxtoel was shown to be against a black backdrop, basically he was in the upper atmosphere ner enough in space.

draglord was at cloud level.. rather just above the clouds. that's a pretty major difference i believe.. I haven't access to the accurate information right now, but i believe that is a pretty major difference.

[*zeo]

Well the size of the beam emitter should also be taken into account, Dragon Lord's Final form did have a very massive mouth and the Whales Purgatorium did ball up to a pretty massive size before it fired to boot.

While Neo-Zektole's Final Blast Tempest just came out of his, tiny compared to Dragonlord Khan, body. So the radius of his attack started out much smaller and would of course needed more range to spread out. Assuming it could spread out as a thermal ray is usually almost laser like aside from atmospheric absorbsion that would cause it to spread minimally. After all most of his beam weapons were basically lasers anyway.

The Purgatorium, though also a heat weapon, appeared more like a particle beam blast to me (like how the beam reacted when Exceed blocked it with his hand) and could thus spread out more significantly like the Guyver Mega Smashers do over distance.

[Salkafar]

I always sort of figured the Gigasmasher would just make the planet explode. But I now realize this is incorrect.

The Megasmasher was estimated to have a power output of over a hundred megawatts. That puts the Gigasmasher in the ten gigawatt range, which is roughly the energy consumption of Norway, but much, much less than the power output of just the first stage of the Saturn V rocket ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_mag....28109_watts.29 ), a hundred thousand times less powerful than the most powerful laser cannon we humans have built ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_mag...281015_watts.29 ) and half a trillion times less powerful than the most powerful bomb we ever tested (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(power)#yottawatt_.281024_watts.29) .

Maybe those figures should be re-checked. I mean of the Guyver. I never realized how insanely powerful that nuke was. It exceeds certain astronomical phenomena.

In fact it seems somewhat unlikely to be true...

Anyway, if the Exceed's power increases relative to its size, it's 8000 times more powerful than the Gigantic.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Salkafar

[*zeo]

Well, the Mega Watt reference in the VDF for the energy output of the Mega Smashers is the one figure I've always disputed, since my own calculations for the energy requirements for a 1 second blast capable of vaporizing a whole bunch of zoanoids and blast a trench along miles of ground puts the Smashers in the same power level as an atomic bomb (which makes more sense when you consider the fact Takaya stated his inspiration for the Smashers was Godzilla's atomic breath).

Though this could just be a translation error, or simple underestimating the power needed to vaporize stuff, I believe it more likely the energy reference covers the ambient energy of the Mega Smashers, such as its luminosity since the Smasher beam can be quite blinding in its intensity and really the Mega-Watt figure would barely flash fry a single human let alone vaporize any significant mass.

Take 100,000 volt cattle prod, it produces about 100 joules of electrical plasma (equivalent to 100 watts) but that is barely enough to put a pin-hole into a tin can.

The difference in energy is significant, 1 ton of TNT equals about 4.2 x10^9 joules (joules are roughly equivalent to watts) and an atomic bomb equals 10 to 15 thousand tons of TNT. The Mega-Watt figure would just be a fraction of that power.

But as scaling goes, this would only put the Gigantic's Smashers in the low Mega Ton range (similar to a tactical nuke) and would fit the level of destruction that they are inferred to be capable of, considering these weapons already countered and overpowered Neo-ZX-Tole's Final Blast Tempest.

The scale factor to Exceed would be immense but still not enough to destroy a planet, the energy of which is frankly greater than the energy output of the Sun.

Even if we go 8000x the Gigantic the Giga Smashers would still only be in the two digit Giga Ton range. To compare the volcanic eruption that produced the Tsunami that devastated so much of the world a few years ago was equivalent to the energy of 100 Giga Tons.

This falls short of even the energy needed to destroy our moon, though it is sufficient to cause enough damage to cause a mass extinction if that much energy was directed towards land and created a nuclear winter scenario. Though directing it at a Caldera could amplify that a bit.

[*Jess♥]

maybe megawatt was supposed to be megaton?

[LordSpleach]

Yeah Ryuki, maybe Guyver Advocacy should retranslate that section just to be sure. But even the ADV Master File 1 booklet states 100 megawatts.

It's hard for me to believe that since the power of a bolt of lightning is suppose to be about a terawatt(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning) instead of the famous

Megatons...........it makes more sense.

[*Jess♥]

it says that in hte adv book as well??

oh dear.. that does not bode well.

i feel compelled to check all the sources i have.

[*Jess♥]

confirmed - multiple sources, including the manga itself.

so it is "over 100 megawatts" and no doubt about it.

[*zeo]

The only reprieve is that it says "over"!

We can just emphasis Way Over!

[*Jess♥]

ha ha

yeah that's true.

well I understand that watts is proportional to volts?

somehow that if volts is high then watts is low, or if volts is low, wtts is high... but maybe one it higher and then the other is insanely high, then it can compensate in some fashion??

like, a similar situatiojn to our speed vs mass with the momentum enhancers.

high momentum can be achieved by either high speed, or high mass.

somthing with high mass moving slowly will have teh same momentum as something with low mass moving quickly?

am i making sense?

[*zeo]

1 Watt=1 Volt x 1 Amp per second, so is a more a measurement of average energy in a given time frame.

In a way it is similar to F=m*a/t

So you're suggesting some sort of amplification is going on when the Smashers are actually fired as opposed to the energy they charge up with?

Such as the energy is just a measure of the amount of particles being stored up, which we can then multiple by the velocity they are fired at for the final energy level?

If so that could work and explain the difference. . .

[LordSpleach]

I still like the megaton idea, Ryuki! But if it is over(how over we don't know) 100 megawatts, how does the megasmasher create a particle beam that efficent?

From my understanding(very basic electrical knowledge) the would have to be insanely high and the volts insanely low to get the raw power, but that still doesn't account for the distance the beam achieves. Though I forgot where I read it(guyver.net, here, etc.), but I read something that the megasmasher actually generates a low velocity of energy. Can someone back me up on this?

[*Jess♥]

1 Watt=1 Volt x 1 Amp per second, so is a more a measurement of average energy in a given time frame.

In a way it is similar to F=m*a/t

So you're suggesting some sort of amplification is going on when the Smashers are actually fired as opposed to the energy they charge up with?

Such as the energy is just a measure of the amount of particles being stored up, which we can then multiple by the velocity they are fired at for the final energy level?

If so that could work and explain the difference. . .

no , i wasn't suggesting that, but what you wrote actually completely threw my thought out of the window.

i thought watt was a subsitution for either volt or amp.

but anyhow...

the megasmasher is focused and directed.

I don't think we should compare teh energy outbput to thermonuclear warheads, because the nuclear explosion is radiated in all directions.

you get teh mushroom cloud for example and teh damage in a 360 degree radius is collossal. this is downwards and horizontal damage, i mean, the path of least resistance is obviously the sky so most of teh energy would most likely be going upwards.

hiroshima vaporised people at teh epicenter and that actually exploded up in the sky, ( i can't reember the altitude) .. it liquidised granite.

if we look at how teh smasher ploughs through the area it hits.. i mean this goes through a forest and there does not appear to be much collateral outside teh area of the beam. no forest fires or incinerated trees. they all seem fine.

with it being a particle beam weapon, it seems that tehre is not energy loss, ther seems to be some ionisation perhaps, but mostly it actually seems to be kinetic.

[*zeo]

Actually the calculations I did showed me that for the energy of an atomic bomb directed in one direction would produce the same sort of damage as the mega smashers are shown doing. I'm well aware a normal bomb sends the energy in all direction but the energy to actually vaporize matter is quite high. Higher than most people realize, for example the Hiroshima blast didn't actually vaporize anyone. They were just mostly cremated and the blast exposure was longer than the compared duration of a Mega Smasher as well.

Just the latent heat of vaporization energy is quite significant. For example 1 gram of water at boiling temperature needs 540 Calories (2259.36 Joules) to turn into steam (this is not counting the energy needed to bring the water to the boiling point in the first place). This means, ignoring the energy needed to reach the boiling point, if we take 100 Mega Watts of energy that we would barely have enough energy to vaporize a human of about 98 pounds (44.4 kg), who just happens to already be at the boiling point of water.

Just for perspective a human has a average internal body temp of 98.6 F (37 C), you need 1 calorie to raise 1 gram of water by 1 C. So you need about 63 calories to raise 1 gram of the mostly water human body to boiling point, or 263.592 joules per gram, which means for the same 98 pound mass we would waste 11,703,484.8 joules (or watts) just to heat that mass up to the boiling point. Or about 11% of the stated 100 Mega Watts, and it would be even more for the average human who has more mass than this example.

Add these numbers together (boiling and vaporization) and you can see how the energy needed to vaporize even a small army of zoanoids, each of who has more mass than a normal human, quickly adds up to an enormous energy requirement. Then add all the collateral damage to the surroundings, like the trenches usually left by the beam along the ground, etc and the energy requirements go even higher. All that is not even counting energy lost as heat and light to the atmosphere and you'll need even more energy to break down molecules into individual atoms to remove all traces of the target mass.

Additionally the time frame is important, as the new anime showed in that outside of the building scene the duration of the Mega Smasher isn't very long, which means a lot of energy concentrated in a very small period of time. The amount of energy you need goes up the quicker you want these effects to happen. For example the scene in which G1 vaporizes that bullet in mid-air would require about a 1 ton of TNT worth of energy just to pull that off and vaporize the bullet before it could reach Tetsuro. Of course it would take less energy over time but the quicker the effect the higher the energy intensity needed. (This part actually addresses your last point, at these extreme energy intensities heat energy doesn't have time to spread and thus the damage is mostly isolated to the target mass, since heat needs time to spread)

So you see I don't make the comparison lightly, I've calculated the likely total energy and just used the atomic bomb for comparison so people have a better idea of just how much energy I'm talking about.

[*Jess♥]

ok, it's maybe not incredibly important.. but i did a quick search and found the following - http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0415-04.htm

and i quote from this article "A new, five-kiloton warhead -- with less than half the destructive power of the Hiroshima bomb -- would vaporize a 30-foot-thick silo door if it were delivered by a precise missile, he wrote."

it is my understanding that the kind of energy that would melt granite ( which i know it did, having read a case study) then it would most certainly vaporise a body that is made of mostly water. maybe teh carbon wouldn't vaporise. not sure on that. but anyway, it's not mega important. it's just words. it vaporised over 90 percent of them for sure.

the real point is the smasher doesn't even need to vaporise it's opponent, we are seen the opponent being torn apart.

i was just using the ferocity of teh hiroshima bomb to make an example of the potency of the smasher blast.

I don't want to get caught up in teh details. let's focus on power. let's be careful not to take it off topic

as I said, the smasher appears to be a kinetic attack force.

so...

if we remain focused on the matter at hand,

how does over 100 megawatts compare to a megaton blast (or whatever the figure is)? if it were focused into a efficient narrow beam such as we have seen?

does it seem feasible? or does over 100 megawatts still seem pretty feeble even taking that into account?

[*zeo]

Well lets clarify a few things first as there seems to be some confusion on a few points here...

1) Heat is Kinetic Energy, when you heat something you are increasing its kinetic energy as the molecules vibrate at a higher rate.

2) A particle beam weapon is both kinetic and raw energy. The Smasher beams are essentially plasma, which is why Neo ZX-Tole could shield himself with an EM shield arc.

3) That 5 kilo ton bomb needs to hit the silo door point blank in order to vaporize it, meaning nearly all of its energy is needed to vaporize the door. This supports that the Mega Smashers have to be in the atomic power range to do what they do. The Hiroshima bomb didn't vaporize the marble, it only melted it, which means the energy intensity was far less since it was spread over a wider area and thus even though it was between 10 to 15 kilo tons it would not vaporize the same door the 5 kilo ton bomb can unless it too blew up right on top of it.

4) Water/Humans aren't as easy to vaporize as you're thinking. Though on the surface I can see why you would think so. Since the melting point of granite is approximately 3100 F, and though this is far higher than the normal heat of vaporization temperature for water but to instantly vaporize even a single human you need far more energy because water doesn't vaporize instantly at its heat of vaporization.

Like the reason a burn victim doesn't have cooked organs is because water doesn't conduct heat that quickly. So most of the burn damage occurs on the surface area before it can reach the internals. Even when you boil water, only the surface area gets converted to steam. So you really need an enormous amount of energy to instantly convert all the water to steam.

For comparison lets take coal, it has more energy per gram than say TNT, but TNT releases its energy more quickly and thus seems more powerful even though coal has more total energy.

This is similarly true with water, with its high specific heat capacity (Water has the second highest specific heat capacity of any known chemical compound, after ammonia) it takes a fair amount of energy to heat water to the point it will reach the heat of vaporization (which is just its steam state). Other materials don't have water's high specific heat capacity and so they take less energy to heat up. So even though water has a lower heat of vaporization, to get it to that point usually takes a set amount of time and even then you aren't instantly turning the entire mass into steam. It's more like melting as only the surface layer turns into steam.

And that is just at sea level, at higher pressures you need even more energy. For example water at the bottom of the sea can reach several hundred degrees and still remain liquid. Meaning a kinetic weapon would have a harder time turning water into steam as it would increase pressure and thus raise the specific heat of vaporization, thus requiring even more energy to reach that point.

So this brings me up to my final point...

5) You really need to turn matter into plasma in order to instantly vaporize it and leave nothing behind, not to mention all the other elements in the body. So to turn water into plasma we are talking about temperatures that start at about 12,000 degrees K (11,726.85 degrees Celsius). But again time scale is important, the faster this happens the more energy you will need and then you have to account for all possible mass the Mega Smashers may be capable of vaporizing.

Things like Aptom's arm just being outside the beam and surviving is also testament to how fast this occurs, since no heat has time to cook the arm. For a Star Wars comparison it's like a light saber lopping off a limb, at plasma intensity this can be done and not effect anything but the target mass.

In comparison, if you really want to know 100+ Mega Watts woundn't instantly vaporize much of anything except bugs, and maybe a really small mouse, while a human would become badly burnt but not vaporized. Though if delivered as kinetic energy you could really make a mess but there would still be a body left afterward. Even if you could use that energy to directly heat every molecule in a person's body at 100% efficiency, say 100 kg person, it will take about 504 Megawatts just to turn a single person into steam.

Really, 100 Mega Watts converts to say about 24 kg (~53 pounds) of TNT, but you need hundreds to thousands of tons of TNT to take down a typical skyscraper (without focusing the energy to the building's weak points like they do in modern demolitions) and each Mega Smasher cell is said to be capable of easily that level of damage.

Look at the recent example of the new Female Guyver when she used her Smashers, she went through a lot more than 30 feet of metal and concrete, not to mention a whole bunch of zoanoids, before that beam blew out and into the air, which means even after doing all that damage there was still a hell of a lot of energy left in the beam.

[*Jess♥]

it does sound like plasma is the molst sensible desciription of what it does....

but that energy level is the problem then?

are we having an issue with timescale?

at 100 megawatts, how long would it take to vapourise a man sized body?

5 seconds?

[Larz Zahn]

i have a kinda retarded idea, maybe perhaps the chronus scientists werent amazed that the megasmashers could produce that much energy, but instead it could produce that much devastion at ONLY 100 megawatts plus?

meaning that its a pretty effecient weapon for a low energy cost?

[*zeo]

An interesting idea Larz Zahn, it would be like firing a beam of anti-matter particles. Like an Anti-Proton particle beam blast to manage that much destruction with just 100+ Mega Watts of energy/particles. So possible but would result in a lot of radiation and targets would essentially explode instead of just getting blasted away. Similarly other exotic matter could pull it off but would similarly have effects that would rule them out, since those effects aren't seen (like black hole or certain dooms day scenario exotic particles that would destroy the entire universe).

As for how long it would take 100+ Mega Watts to vaporize a human being, going by the laws of thermodynamics, a lot longer than 5 seconds. The extreme example I gave for 504 MW was if we could somehow transfer the energy directly into the body of the target mass at 100% efficiency, which isn't possible in real world reactions (unless you first flatten the target to one atom thick and then apply energy evenly across the entire surface), that you could get away with just over 5 times the stated energy. Add, all that energy is just for 1 single human target of just 100 kg.

Most zoanoids weigh much more and being designed to survive nukes (at least if they can avoid the main blast) that they probably deflect more heat energy than a human would and thus would require much more energy to destroy just one, let a lone an entire army lined up in a row with such ease that the beam can still be seen going off into the horizon when it is done.

Actually, I would probably have put the 100+ Mega Watts figure to the head beam if it wasn't specifically mentioned for the Mega Smashers. Since that much energy is plenty good for slicing/burning, just not good for whole sale vaporizing.

Just look at other well thought out sci-fi characters, like say IRONMAN. The Arc Reactor produces over 3 Giga Watts in its first form (that's over 3 thousand Mega Watts) and 4 times that in its second final form. Yet none of his weapons are comparable to the Guyver's Mega Smashers.

[LordSpleach]

The anti-matter particles would make sense. Professor Zeo, do you think the megasmashers' lens could create an energy barrier to contain the anti-matter stream?

Edited February 23, 2009 by LordSpleach