Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Salkafar]

So, now that it is out: Have we seen it? Do we like it?

I'll post a spoilered review later...

[Azaar]

I watched it a week ago in a matinee showing.  On its own, the story seemed pretty decent, though there are a couple of elements that I think weren't done right, but overall it was decent in that regard.  I'll hold off on those elements until we hit spoiler territory.

Taken together with The Force Awakens, though... I can see where some think Disney is ruining Star Wars.  Myself, I'd really like to see what Lucas would have done with this sequel trilogy, even though I think he would have had to stay away from the dialogue -- that was a major weakness for Lucas.  But the more I look at TFA and TLJ, as well as the additional stuff Disney is doing with solo movies like Rogue One, the forthcoming Solo, and the third one (whatever it'll be), plus another planned trilogy brainstormed by the director of TLJ (which will have zilch to do with all the other movies, as I understand it)... I can't help but think Disney will run the franchise into the ground in their quest for the almighty cash-grab.

[Matt Bellamy]

I didn't like it. Had some decent action scenes, but none of the humor landed well, the characters were pretty terrible and acted strangely, and all the death.

When Mark Hamill stated early on that he told them that he did not like what they were doing with Luke, but would act it anyway... Yeah, I feel he was spot on.

- They ruined Poe Dameron despite the fact he didn't get much to do in the Force Awakens. They turned him into a traitor, rather than just a hot headed pilot. That said...

- Laura Dern's character ( Holdo I think) could have been good. She looked great for her age, and in certain moments you could tell she would be interesting... But her pettyness ruined the movie. Because she didn't explain her plan, Finn and Rose go off and do something pointless (oh my god... SO pointless). Poe mutinies, only for everyone to just shrug it off later. I get that Leia demoted Poe "unofficially", but he was well known within the rebellion and Holdo should have known about his deeds and maybe trust him. Which is totally a shame... After their initial confrontation I thought that they would make a better pair than Han and Leia.

- Finn is either too perfect, or too boring. No middle ground. He always seems to know where every secret thing on every First Order ship there is. But when he goes off to do something else on his own, he's practically terrible.

- Rose is not a good character and feels very tacked on only for the stuff involving that other planet...

- That gambling planet should have been cut from the movie entirely. I'm a pretty liberal guy... But that planet only seemed to exist to shove SJW topics into a STAR WARS movie. Not to mention it used 2 of the most boring characters and BB8 ever so poorly... And in the end, their big mission fails anyway and is completely pointless, other than the movie trying to be forcefully depressing.

- Captain Phasma. Fucking wasted again... And likely may not even be dead this time around.

- The Rey and Kylo Ren stuff was pretty good overall.

- Snoke was a joke. I did find it crafty how he died... But with no backstory to him, it all falls very flat. He was Emperor lite, but not nearly as menacing.

- Luke wasn't too bad once you learn everything... But having him die at the end was kind of stupid.

- Yoda. Empire Yoda. Kind of fun.

- The tone of the movie was such a downer too. I am sure the next will be all super positive since we know the Rebels will win... But I have a feeling Chewbacca will die. He's the only one left from the old movies ( since Carrie Fisher herself died before Leia did).

 

[Salkafar]

People have said Rey is a Mary Sue. I myself have defended the idea that she is not, but after seeing this video I am reconsidering.

 

[river_chaos]

Not my favorite, but not on my hate list (that's reserved for the prequel trilogy).  It was good except for when it was dumb.  The most redeeming part of it would have to be Luke trolling Kilo Ren close to the end of the film. 

[Larz Zahn]

when luke showed up at the end to "save everybody" i was estatic, tho a little upset. i was hoping he would come sweeping in, in his xwing and blow some crap up before going one on one with kylo.  and when those gorilla walkers opened up i had to keep myself from screaming like a little school girl in the theater. 

then we find out it was just an illusion. i was disappointed. i do like the use of the force powers, im totally ok with him doing the illusion from across the galaxy(?).

               vader did say that the ability to blow up a planet is impressive, but insignificant when compared to the power of the force. but i really wanna see that. i want to see someone use the force in such a way that makes nuking a planet pale in comparison, but it has TO BE DONE RIGHT. it cant be just anybody, i wanna see a master to go all super sayain 20 and do cool stuff, but a MASTER. not some girl who repeats things and then can do whatever she wants. she totally neo matrix downloaded "i know kung fu" saber skills in awakens, but now she can pick up 30 plus rocks with little to no training? luke struggled with 5.

 

this was lukes farewell film, possible he'll be back for the next movie as a force ghost, but this one here was the last luke is alive movie, so they could of at least made it favorable for luke, i mean really make him shine! he has 20 plus years to hone and master his control of the force, so he would of been freaking awesome going all out against an army! OR even a single person... but all they did was make him a grumpy old hermit that made a really dumb judgement call.

                              "my dad was the most evil man in the universe, really lost in the darkside, and killer of millions and totally never struggled with doing bad or good things.  i MUST save him!!!"

                         "my nephew is a young impressionable kid who is struggling with his conscience about doing some bad things, he has a big bad guy whispering in his ear, so i'll sneak in his room while he sleeps and kill him. oops, i changed my mind. my bad"

 

poor writing, and you know what, this movie was designed to ruin all expectations, the director didn't want the typical good guy wins story. he actually went on record saying that if half the audience loves the movie, and the other half hates the movie then he made a great movie.

thats poor thinking!! he's purposely making a controversial movie wanting half to hate it!

 

im a luke fan. can ya tell?

[Salkafar]

Well, it seems that 'The Last Jedi' managed to kill 'Solo'.

After seeing it, I decided to boycott Star Wars movies until I read a review that made me feel there was a purpose to seeing the movie in question. And it seems I wasn't the only one.

Rumor has it Disney put the side movies on hold now that 'Solo' may very well turn out to be the first Star Wars movie not to make a profit.

But Rian Johnson's getting to make a new trilogy of his own. So... I am done. This franchise is dead to me.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Salkafar

[Larz Zahn]

which is really sad, because I truly enjoyed solo.

 

sure, there were things added to or changed from the Legends\Canon that we grew up with, but it didn't detract from the story, and honestly, i thought they were well done.

 

solo was a decent movie, i'd give it a solid 75%. 

they kept enough original material in it for me to like it as it was. a good story origin for han solo, and tho some parts were iffy, it didnt take away from the movie.

 

and yeah, salkafar, you werent alone in that assessment. but the boycott has done a lot of damage, tho they are not going to cancel anything just yet, kenobi and boba fett are said to may be restructured or redone.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/lucasfilm-licking-wounds-but-not-halting-star-wars-development-1122655

[Matt Bellamy]

On 6/24/2018 at 4:18 AM, Salkafar said:

Well, it seems that 'The Last Jedi' managed to kill 'Solo'.

After seeing it, I decided to boycott Star Wars movies until I read a review that made me feel there was a purpose to seeing the movie in question. And it seems I wasn't the only one.

Rumor has it Disney put the side movies on hold now that 'Solo' may very well turn out to be the first Star Wars movie not to make a profit.

But Rian Johnson's getting to make a new trilogy of his own. So... I am done. This franchise is dead to me.

I don't know if "Solo" was killed by the "The Last Jedi" or if its own production issues and the fact it was again, a story that never needed telling like "Rogue One"... but this time about an established character.

I saw "Solo", and it was alright. Not needed at all, but wasn't completely terrible ( like "The Last Jedi").

I was REALLY hoping for the rumored Obi-won Kenobi movie, since it would've at least starred an actor playing the same character he played before... And was also one of the best parts about the 3 prequels. But most importantly, they wouldn't be able to change him like they did to Luke in "The Last Jedi".

But overall, I agree. Star Wars is dead to me. I don't like any of the current cast that is moving forward to the next movie, and did not like the last 2 very much. I'm not about to go to the next one because of a brand name.

I'll just go replay Knights of the Old Republic again.

[Tora Tan]

I really enjoyed Solo. Rogue one could have been good if they had focused more on the lore of that jedi temple. I was fascinated with that location but it wasn't really utilised at all. instead they focused on pushing the fan service with the atats and the firefights and the goddamn terrible CGI characters. 
What Solo did was much better. it was new and fresh, even if it was old characters. It actually presented an interesting story with different elements.

I was looking forward to seeing

obi wan kenobi facing off against darth(?) maul

in the obiwan movie after seeing solo.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Tora Tan

[Matt Bellamy]

3 hours ago, Tora Tan said:

I really enjoyed Solo. Rogue one could have been good if they had focused more on the lore of that jedi temple. I was fascinated with that location but it wasn't really utilised at all. instead they focused on pushing the fan service with the atats and the firefights and the goddamn terrible CGI characters. 
What Solo did was much better. it was new and fresh, even if it was old characters. It actually presented an interesting story with different elements.

I was looking forward to seeing

  Reveal hidden contents

obi wan kenobi facing off against darth(?) maul

in the obiwan movie after seeing solo.

Your spoiler has technically already happened... Star Wars Rebels is canon.

 

[Tora Tan]

OH!! Is it worth watching? I don't normally like cartoons, but if it's really good, I might put it on my list.

[Larz Zahn]

rebels isnt a bad show, i liked it better than clone wars, but i have no love for clone wars. heh. some may remember a particular rant i had some years back about that particular subject.

 

anyways to answer your question, yeah its worth watching.

it started off pretty strong, but tapered down to almost a kids feel type show near the middle, hondo came back which was pretty good, and then some cameos of movie characters and even them making Grand Admiral Thrawn canon was exciting. the season finale was ok, but maybe a bit of a let down for me personally.

my main complaint was that i was hoping rebels would be more soldier and story arc biased, rather than jedi and force biased since jedi were all but extinct, and it became a jedi story pretty quick. i was hoping for a more rebel alliance centered story, focusing on the actual growth and spreading of the rebellion rather than just a small group of 6 individuals.

 

the rebellion period is my favorite period, it was the one i grew up with, so thats why i enjoy movies like the original trilogy and rogue one and solo.

 

and that darth maul fight with obiwan? they dont need to redo that on the big screen, if they do, im afraid they'll change it for awesomes sake. and that was a great scene.

[Matt Bellamy]

17 hours ago, Tora Tan said:

OH!! Is it worth watching? I don't normally like cartoons, but if it's really good, I might put it on my list.

The big thing about Rebels is that its core cast is not part of any of the movies, with the exception of Rogue One, where their ship and their Astromech droid Chopper make brief cameos.

If you are not into the cartoons, reading up on it should be enough, and most of the popular events can be found officially on youtube. It is basically skippable, and the first season or two swings a bit young, but the later seasons it matures a bit more.

But, if you like some other older Star Wars Legends stories... Admiral Thrawn was brought into canon by Rebels.

[Tora Tan]

I don't know who Admiral Thrawn is but I suppose I could always watch and find out.
I've watched a few cartoons like moana (so good) and wreck it ralph, etc. and I watched naruto and dragonball, so I am not averse to watching cartoons, just not normally my thing.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Tora Tan
typo

[Salkafar]

12 hours ago, Tora Tan said:

I don't know who Admiral Thrawn is

He was the big bad from 'Heir to the Empire', the main sequel to 'Return of the Jedi' from the expanded universe novels.

Interesting character. I wonder if the show could do him justice.

[Larz Zahn]

he was smart, but i wouldnt call him thrawn trilogy smart. 

 

i do know that timothy zahn liked how they portrayed him in Rebels.

 

so found this out, and i got real excited about it, then i realized its probably fake, but.... i read an article online(its online so it must be true) saying that a group of fans had started a crowdfund project to remake the last jedi. they stated they needed 200 million, and when i read it, it was only up for 2 days and had already garnered over 1 million in pledges. other sources says it has 13 million now, but after digging around, im having a hard time believing this to be true. it sounds too... too good to be true, almost like a nigerian scam.

[Tora Tan]

well it's certainly got people's attention. I heard about this today and apparently Rian Johnson himself is in support of it.

[Salkafar]

11 hours ago, Tora Tan said:

Rian Johnson himself is in support of it.

Talk about a kiss of death.

[Azaar]

For my part, I thought Solo was better than most claimed -- definitely better than Force Awakens or The Last Jedi.  And @Matt Bellamy hit the nail on the head in regards to why I didn't like it:  the characters.  Specifically, in my case, the new characters.

From the beginning, Poe came across as a poor man's attempt to blend Han and Wedge Antilles.  He has some moments where the characterization tries to be interesting, but by and large the performance comes across as uninspired.  The Last Jedi only made things worse, with having him lead a mutiny of sorts.  It just felt jarring at best.

Next up:  Finn.  For an ex-First Order stormtrooper, he's surprisingly rogue-ish, and I don't mean that in a good way.  Throughout Force Awakens and most of The Last Jedi, I didn't care for him -- he was all about saving his own skin, and to hell with anyone else.  Now yeah, that's a lot like Han during A New Hope, but taking most of two movies before he finally has a moment where he's willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good -- only to be metaphorically screwed out of it by Rose (who spent most of the entire movie complaining about how he was only looking out for himself and didn't care, only to then turn around and keep him from having what I felt was his first heroic moment)… ugh.  And the fact that Finn spends part of two movies playing around with a lightsaber when he has no business touching one, let alone actively wielding it... I can only eyeroll so many times.  That said, Finn's still at the best place right now of the three characters I'm outlining for this, but this is a low bar I'm setting.

And then... there's Rey.  Let's be honest here:  "The Last Jedi", in my mind, refers to Luke.  It does not refer to Rey in any sense, and I'll get to why shortly.  Rey was written to be Disney's version of Kyp Durron from the Expanded Universe.  She's pretty much completely ignorant of The Force... and yet can Jedi mind-trick stormtroopers and do several other Force abilities without any semblance of training in Force Awakens alone, and can defeat (and injure) Kylo Ren with zero training with a lightsaber.  She's the Mary Sue of Mary Sues*, and The Last Jedi only highlights the problems with Rey as a Force-user all the more.  While believing that there's still some good in Kylo Ren is noble, it's about the only noble thing Rey has going for her.  The way she fights in both movies, she's far more of a Sith than she is as a Jedi -- every lightsaber duel she's been in, and for that matter, most every use of the Force that Rey has shown thus far, stems out of fear, anger and aggression.  She's closer to being the embodiment of the Dark Side of the Force than to anything else, and I don't see how she could actually be seen as any sort of hero by the end of Episode IX.

I'll leave out the other nitpicks about how Leia's doing effectively the exact same thing as Rey during The Last Jedi when she does her Force Flight in space to save herself when she should have been dead, or how Luke was worthy of taking over as the replacement for Oscar the Grouch on Sesame Street and all that.  A lot of the problems come down to the directors and their narrative "vision", and everything I've seen so far tells me that J.J. Abrams should never have left television, and Rian Johnson having creative control over a trilogy of his own making after the craptastic job he did in The Last Jedi is a bad idea.

But in the end, I think Disney has to shoulder the blame as well.  There's no mistaking the fact that buying out Lucasfilm in 2012 was exactly what most people feared it to be:  the ultimate cash-grab.  They're about to do the same thing again with acquiring Fox -- the only difference is that they can at least try to integrate the X-Men and Fantastic Four back into the MCU.  But it's clear that Disney never had a long-term plan for the Star Wars franchise other than "lets make six movies in the next 7-8 years and recoup our financial losses" -- if they thought Star Wars could be another MCU-like springboard, they've done a lot to cripple themselves in that regard.  And let's not forget the waffling back-and-forth about how they publicly said they weren't using any of Lucas's planned material for the sequel trilogy, and yet have tried convincing the public in the wake of The Last Jedi how they actually were using some of Lucas's material after all (which I think was a backhanded attempt at throwing shade at Lucas after how critical he was of Disney's plans, in part because of his own claims that Disney had no plan to use any of what he developed for the sequel trilogy).

If there is a silver lining to all of the missteps that have been made since Disney bought the franchise out, it is this:  they've managed to make the prequels look so much better than anything they've done.  And I say this as someone who actually does enjoy the prequels, in spite of their flaws.  But aside from Rogue One and Solo... I haven't been able to enjoy the sequel trilogy in the slightest, and I don't have faith in Disney (and I certainly have no faith in J.J. Abrams or Rian Johnson) to be able to make Episode IX watchable.

* I do want to note, I'm not against strong female protagonists in the slightest.  I only have issues when it becomes blatantly obvious how much of a special snowflake that Rey was written to be.  I'll also note, more generally, that I don't have any issue with the actors/actresses playing Finn, Poe, Rey, Rose, etc. -- their writing is what fans are (rightfully) up in arms about... but that doesn't give those same fans the right to bully/harass any of the actors/actresses for portraying the role they were given.  If the fans want to take issue with the characterization, they should be aiming those crosshairs at Disney, J.J. Abrams, Rian Johnson and the writers for the screenplays for both Force Awakens and The Last Jedi.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Azaar
Added a note at the end.

[Larz Zahn]

yeah, what the angry fan mob is doing to the actress who played Rose is simply criminal and makes fans in general look bad.

 

azaar pretty much summed it up pretty well, tho i am a big fan of the leia mary poppins moment. 

my other main problem is some of the liberties they took just cause they thought it would look cool, or just couldnt bother to find a decent way around a problem.

using the mon cal Raddus as a battering ram to distract and cover for the fleeing crew: awesome.

            making it a hyperspeed missile: awful. why not just put hyperdrives on all missles? sure itll be expensive, but ya know what? one missle will kill a ship, so who care?

 

having fin know every top secret weapon or tech location, and he was just a janitor\stormtrooper. and that doesnt even make sense to me.... would a stormtrooper... would a soldier in todays world be a janitor? as punishment sure, but as a permanent job as well as being a elite shocktroop that may require constant conditioning to keep them in line?(Glad it wasnt clones, tho, i liked that part)

 

again with the hyperspeed.... we need to board that ship, lets go under its sheilds by exiting hyperspace with pinpoint precision. not cool.

                        i hated that in awakens, i hated it now. they are bending the rules of physics for a deus ex machina. you cant go to hyperspace in a gravity well, planets are a giant gravity well.  and guess what? its a science fact that is so easily ignored, as early as season 1 of clone wars, to rebels, to the sequel movies.  but its also a fact they choose to accept when introducing the interdictor cruisers as canon. in Rebels, the cruiser first showed up, and it pulls ships from hyperspace by creating a gravity well. 

                        absolutely no consistency.

 

i really wanted to meet that slicer with the red flower.  when maz first was talking about him, i could of bet my paycheck she was talking about lando (sure lando isnt a slicer, but the rest of the description fit, and hey he's retired, so maybe he got a new hobby)

                             but that was never to be, cause we got that 2 timing greasy looking dude who stuttered. ugh i know im nitpicking, but if you want a character to have a querk or disability like stuttering, at least make sure it can be believable. i cringed whenever that guy tried it. it should of just been dropped from the script if the actor can do it convincingly, no harm done.

 

i got more but im holding back, lol.

[Shin Mefilas]

Previous posts do a good job of highlighting specific issues I have but  to give an over all description to my feelings on these films... pure disappointment. Star Wars was never a perfect franchise but it was well written (for the most part), interesting and most importantly of all it was fun. While the force awakens did have some of that, I've come to realise that that was only becuase is was a soft reboot of a new hope, acting like mantis mimicking a flower to draw you in befor it strikes. Last Jedi is the point you realised you've been duped and are now getting your face eaten off. It's effectively killed off my intreast in star wars and I didn't boycott Solo, I was just so uninterested I could not be bothered to go see it. 

I don't care if they want to put a modern feminist element into a film and a female protagonist is as welcome as any other. The problem is that these films were poorly planned, poorly written, poorly directed and poorly managed making them the antithesis of what a star wars film should be even when stood next to even the lowest point proceeding it, Attack of the Clones. 

So with all that said...

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Godmars