guyvers control medal

[gelionlegends]

hi all i was wondering if someone would help with the control medal on the guyvers.

i was watching the new anime series and i showed a scene in which the control medal acted on its own in response to sho wanting to stop a bullet, and the scene showed shos brain and tendrils connecting the two together.

the scene looked like the CM either did the calculations and then transfered the info to the head laser to fire and move the head for the best angel to hit the object.

well i understand that the CM monitors and controls the functions and the symbiote organism from eating the host. activating the weapons and regenerating lost or destroyed body parts or the body from stored host data.

as well as not allowing the use of its weapons if the situation would leave the host unarmoured or severely drained of energy.

and when the host is unconscious acts aggressively towards hostile target?

so then would the CM be a very powerful cpu and basic AI in one small piece of alien alloy, how powerful and would it add to its power by using the host brain as humans i think only use 10% or so of the brains potential.

if its a combination of both cpu and basic AI then with four CM like in the warrior units or enhanced how much more powerful do they become, as well as how much more advanced does the AI become as well.

then also how come the CM can't be used to hack into other comeputers or is it because of how basic the AI is and that there is not wireless like card to do so besides creator technology.

so if anyone can help or point me in the right direction to find out what i am looking for please do.

thanks.

[*zeo]

The Control Medal is made up of several combined components.

But despite it's name it's not a simple alloy, it is only called that because of it's appearance.

There are actually crystals and other components inside.

The outer ring has been designated as the slave collarby most, which basically means it's the part that keeps the Organism under control.

The light shinging through comes from a crystal layer inside.

And the center piece is what is the actual CPU/AI is located.

It's primary purpose is to store information on the host to use for regeneration but since it interfaces with the host brain it can and does use the host brain to augment it's own processing abilities.

So as long as the host brain is intact the Unit can use the host brain to make decisions.

Also it is what allows the unit to respond to the host will so quickly.

Sho wanted to protect Tetsuro so the unit responded and protected him by vaporizing the bullet for example.

But if the host brain is damaged then the unit defaults to its own limited reasoning capabilities and will do whatever is required to ensure the survival of the host and unit.

G1 killing Sho's dad is an example of when the unit doesn't have access to the host brain and what it would then do.

But basically like you guessed the CM takes advantage of the host brain's full potential.

And yes the WG CM is much more powerful, you're going have to wait till I get around to posting the Chronicles version of the WG data file for more on that...

As for hacking, the Guyver is not the same technology as our computers. It was created by an alien race for living technology. It speaks DNA not computer code.

[gelionlegends]

thanks for that as i wasn't sure what the control medal was made up of so i thought ally because of the outer shell it has.

so only a matrix can communicate with other tech because of the level of advancement it has as a quantum computer?

what about if someone or the creators created a secondary CM that would do just that without damaging the main CM controlling the unit?

not to be argumentative or such but didn't sho and other communicate with creator tech like the ships control medal, so wouldn't that be classed as computer language though it was through organic tech.

though it does beg the question of whether or not a creator ship CM can affect changes on a guyver. like i know sho cm and body were damaged as well as the ship, so it protected him and healed as well as create an upgrade named the gigantic armour. so if a creator ship is not damaged and has enough resources could it not make a cacoon around the guyer and add new programs to the cm as it does also store the date on the guyver like weapons, regeneration and other such important and minor need items.

by this i mean could it upgrade the guyvers weapons or sense and durability just to name a few, though if the ship is much newer could it not alos act like a mk2 upgrading station. so it could enhance the control medal, and in all this the ship CM stays where it is as it wouldn't need to come off to bond as the ships in all case have been badly damaged or destroyed like jasons though that was a war relic.

do you think that is possible or not?

[*zeo]

Possible, yes.

But you have to remember the Guyver and all the Creator technology is completely alien.

When a Guyver CM communicates with a Relic CM it does so because that is what they were designed for.

They were never designed to interface with human technology which when the Creator technology was originally made was billions of years before our time.

Even life on Earth was only in its most primitive state when the Creators came here.

And alien cultures have very different ideas on how to do things.

Even something like a TV signal can be configured in literally millions of combinations that would not be compatable with each other.

There is also the factor our technology is still extremely primitive compared to the Creator's.

[Aranor]

Keep in mind the armor's which we write about are also based on the ones we have been shown by the originator. The possibility of other models has not been rejected nor confirmed. One aspect for your solar scout guyver (Two threads down) could be a different model. Rather than made for war it could be for stealth and information gathering. Having its cm designed to scan and determine the functionality of other computing systems as it encounters them just as one could scan a human and find broken bones hear rate etc. To our knowledge this is not something the current units can not do. We simply don't know what the cm if fully capable of as there are no creators around to show us.

[*zeo]

Yeah, but you also have to consider that our technology is the equivalent to cave drawings when compared to Creator technology.

The CM may simple consider our computers too dumb to interface with.

[Aranor]

I doubt that would be the result as the cm should be following the will of the host. Unless of course the hosts mind is obliterated and the cm is taking control.

[*zeo]

It doesn't matter, the CM can interface with the host brain but the host brain is more powerful than all the computers in the world combined.

The most powerful super computer we have is still dumber than an ant for example.

[Aranor]

I wouldn't say they are dumb. Simply lacking the drive to power them. The latest IBM Blue Gene L

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6241566.stm

Can process 100 trillion calculations per second. Granted it is huge but with a sound AI it could do some amazing things.

Of course with an AI it still relies on someone inputing data so yeah it would be dumb but in the useless sense as a car tire is until it moves you along at 55 mph.

As for what I was pertaining to is if the control medal could act as an interface between host mind and computer using some sort of remote contact. Current level technolgies use wires for such things but who knows what the limits of the creator tech was/is.

[*zeo]

Again that is still barely in the range of the brain power of a typical insect.

AI or no AI that is well below what the CM is used to interfacing with.

The CM has its own connections for the host brain and doesn't require physical connection to communicate with other CM's

So for your idea to work it would require either a unit specifically designed to interface with non-creator technology or at least able to adapt to non-creator technology.

No standard unit would ever be able to do this.

[W'Kar]

That is unless the Gigantics next ultimate power involves a SCSI cable coming out of his rear end.

[xtro guyver]

That is unless the Gigantics next ultimate power involves a SCSI cable coming out of his rear end.

Maybe that is this what those red orbs on the horn are for

[gelionlegends]

so we have the standard CM then you have the gigantic and then the warrior but also a cm and zoa crystal.

how powerful is the gigantic CM compared to the WG like is it half the power or one CM and a half?

then how powerful is the zoa-crystal and CM merged? and would the person with that as the guyver CM be able to use a gigantic unit?

then i know that the one attempt by solom to merge four different project failed because the wasn't enough processing power with only one CM. so he had to use four each for parell processing and for each merged project, that and making the CM to big would make it a weakness, so what would using a Zoa-crystal merged with the CM.

or using four CM merged with four zoa-crystals would that boost the processing power?

heck what would having more than the four CM in the WG do?

as i know that for the Enforcer Kavzar has an additional control crystal to help regulate the power would having something like that improve the guyver power and abilities?

just something i suddenly thought of, though the gigantic armour is more on raw power to a standard guyver and not on being like a sore thumb.

while what been looked at the cm or secondary CM would allow for data and info stealing for whatever the mission is, though it would most likely fall under a prototype unit like the shadow g-unit for theWG project for stealth and data gathering.

[Aranor]

As it was stated the creator tech is millions, if not billions of years ahead of ours. If the cm can allow telepathic communication between Sho and Agito from Tokyo to Arizona (I believe that is where they were when Agito took the gigantic from Sho), can materialize atomic structures (theorising this based on it being able to regenerate a host with a simple sample of DNA and no raw materials to use other than energy) then why would scanning frequencies of remote access computers analysing the and cracking the code be that far fetched? Especially when a Zoalord can mentally control an army of Zoanoids. Basically the same thing except one is living and more complex. Telepathic communication is little more than an tapped radio signal. We do already have machines which can transfer patterns of though to movements of a computer mouse or robotic hand.

http://www.emotiv.com/

Here is one of the many forms out there in its infancy stage.

[*zeo]

You want the long list or the short list?

Short list is...

1) Telepathy doesn't work on the same principles as electronic communication.

And Sho and Agito didn't communicate over long distances, Agito and Sho only ripped the Gigantic from each other but the Gigantic Cocoon was in the boost dimension when that happened so could have been what they were linking with.

They never spoke to each other over those distances.

Never mind the fact that telepathy is a lot more than a radio signal. Our brains would never understand a radio signal, let alone translate it to thought. At best it would be no more than hearing but telepathy in the Manga also can send images and emotions. Something simply receiving radio signals would never do.

The transmission and reception of complex information requires a common communication language which the CM would simply not be programmed for.

Our technology isn't designed to send communicate with brains, etc.

2) The CM was never programmed to decode anything but DNA and organic brain chemistry. Which is very different from our computer code.

3) Our technology isn't made to interface with organic materials yet, bionics and such are still in the theoretical stage of development.

4) The CM is so powerful that interfacing with our primitive tech could well destroy our tech.

The unit has shown it can withstand millions of volts of electricity without any perminent damage.

It'll take far less to fry our technology.

5) The CM AI could act like a virus to our primitive tech or our tech can act like a virus to the CM.

6) Those machines you mention that can transfer thoughts to movement really don't.

What they do is scan patterns of brain activity and try through analysis to figure out what the signals are for. Over time this translates to controlled movement but like I said before that technology is only at its theoretical stage. Even the machine you are referring too requires loads of wires and specialized hardware to work.

The computers don't literally know what the brain is saying, they just analyze patterns and give an approximate. Which is a VERY BIG difference from actually reading thoughts.

7) There are literally millions of ways to configure something as simple as a TV signal and none of them are directly compatable with each other.

You can use any one of many methods of configering a TV signal and unless you are using the exact same method on the receiving TV then you won't receive anything.

8 ) A device designed by aliens could use languages and methods of communications we never conceived of and vice versa. Even computer code could seem like gibberish or without context seem like junk information.

Even with our own languages there are words that don't translate in all other languages.

And this is just the short list.

[Aranor]

I was not trying to say that the brain could read radio waves. Simply meant to show that a transmission tower sends singals, a radio picks them up. Telepathy is one mind sending signals another picking them up. The concept is similar not the methods.

Can you show me where it states that the CM is strictly DNA reading technology? I simply do not recall seeing that.

You are right, our current technology can not decipher the thoughts of the human or any mind. Is takes patterns and transforms them into signals as you said. Which is what I am suggesting the CM could do should it be capable of scanning the functionality of others technology.

Again the creators are not around in the comics/anime to show us the true limits of the control medal. Most of what I am suggesting is a what if scenario but it has yet to be shown that the "what if" is not possible.

[*zeo]

The CM only interfaces with the host and other Creator technology.

Nowhere is there any example of radiowaves or anything related to our technology.

Chronos itself has tried every method of interfacing with Creator tech and have failed every time.

And Chronos has been around for nearly 400 years. If Takaya even remotely wanted that possibility considered don't you think he would have let Chronos had more success in that regard?

The best Chronos got to was being able to telepathically access the memory of the Relic in Arizona but they could never command it.

The mere fact that they could access the memory shows the CM is configured to process information similar to how our brains do.

I.E.> Not in a way our technology could ever interface with.

It really only takes common sense to figure out what is possible or not possible Aranor.

Even our own technology won't speak to each other unless it was designed to do so.

You can't connect a SCSI capable to a Serial Port for example.

Different operating systems don't automatically recognize and communicate with each other.

And our technology is not only the same technology but is more or less made to work with each other. Yet we still have problems.

Now you want a totally alien device created eons before our technology was even conceived of by a culture that probably has nothing in common with us to just up and communicate with our technology?

This is much less a possibility than an outright near impossibility. There are just so many factors that goes against it.

And no, a telephone, radio, whatever is not the same as communications. You still need something to translate the signal and even then you need a complex system of communication to get anything more than you would get from simple hearing.

The Creators did not speak english. So aside from math there is nothing to base communications on with our technology.

And the CM would have to recognize our technology as Technology before it would even attempt communications.

But sine our technology is nothing like Creator technology there is no reason to believe it would ever even bother.

Never mind even if communications is established what the results would be.

Like taking another sci-fi series for an example, in the STTNG episode "CONTAGION", the Iconian Probe performed a simple identification communication but it's technology was so far more advance than Starfleet's that it acted like a virus that would have destroyed the ship.

And organic technology is considered even more advance than that example.

Just to show how badly mixing technology can be if a proper means of communications isn't established first.

Or even vise versa, like in the movie Independance Day, it emphasized the fact our culture deals with a lot of viruses and such.

Something the Creators probably never had to deal with so even if communication is established there is no telling what our machine code would do to the CM, how it would be interpreted, etc.

[Aranor]

I would be willing to bet viruses are something they had to deal with a great bit. Especially being organic technology. I hate it when I sneeze and my mega smashers go off.

Your talking about chronos trying to use new technology on more advanced. Of course that would take forever. As for other sciene fiction realms you also have Star Trek's universal translater which seems to be able to perfectly translate the language of any species they stumble upon. Beit with a little tweaking.

The human host would already have some deal of knowledge about our technology even if it is limited to playing a video game. The concept of what the device can do would be coming from the host. It would simply be the translating of signals. I know there are millions of combinations and frequencies out there. There are also trillions of neurons in the body which the armor is interfacing with. And this is being done with a unit smaller in size thant he power plug of the IBM super computer I showed.

Not to mention it is a technology never meant to be used by humans. Nor were humans developed to be used within the armor. They simply tried the two and said ah crap whad did we do?

Even though to transmit signals and recieve them it takes a descrambler they are everywhere and quite small. Cell phones, Ipods, PAD's, car radios, satelite recievers. I've even worked on microchips that can develop digital images on the chip itself removing the need for storage or film within a camera. (New Kodak technology) The equipment needed for deciphering these codes is getting smaller and smaller.

The armor has already shown this type of ability by allowing the user to see through walls. Basically, and again I am guessing on this, it would have to filter the subtle frequencies coming from the wall from those of the items behind it. If it can sort the frequencies from atoms why not with a little guidance from the host search radio waves?

I know the movies are bad examples of information but in the 2nd movie it showed Sean in the creator ship when communicating, a red beam shining on his control medal. (Not sure if that was in the manga or not) This would resemble similar technology to our remot controls, DVD/CD burners/readers. Which is not that far from the way hard drives are read.

We know the CM can hold massive amounts of data. Host DNA along with faults and memories. But we do not know how much memory space within the cm this uses.

And if Takaya wanted to create a unit that could pull planets he would have thought up Anubis. Which is why these are fan fics.

[*zeo]

I guess you won't be satisfied until we go through the long list.

Here's a sampling...

1) The Creators controlled evolution, they would not have been bothered by biological viruses. In fact the Zoaforming process uses viruses to alter the DNA of the human.

But an organic virus works under completely different principles than a computer virus. Even if their behavior can be similar.

The CM would be able to easily handle a biological virus because that is what it is designed to deal with.

But a computer virus is a human invention. The CM would not know what to make of it let alone defend against it.

2) The Creators are telepathic, there would have been no secrets between them so the social structure that gives rise to hackers and virus writers would not have existed. So the Creator technology would never had to deal with computer viruses or anything like it.

We do it because we are a violent species and some of us enjoy hurting others but the Creators in the Manga created humans exactly because they weren't that violent and needed a warrior race to do their fighting for them.

3) Things like a universal translator were designed to translate.

While the Guyver was only designed to work with a host and other Creator technology.

Expecting the CM to translate or otherwise communicate with technology that for all intents and purpose would never be encountered at the time it was created would be like having a modern human go back in time and expect to fluently speak with a caveman.

Just because a modern human is more advance doesn't mean you can communicate with the caveman.

Similarly just because a CM is more advance doesn't mean it can communicate with our primitive technology.

4) Nowhere has it been ever shown that a Guyver can understand languages they do not know. So we know the unit doesn't translate for them.

And Chronos has access to the most advance technology on the planet and they can't access the CM either.

The best they have been able to do was access the Relic's memory through Zoalord telepathy.

It didn't respond to anything else.

5) Problems with communications go both ways, just because the CM is more advance doesn't mean it was equipped to deal with technology that didn't even exist when it was created.

And with the knowledge of how the CM does communicate doesn't mean we can make it do anything it wasn't designed to do in the first place.

6) In terms of processing power size isn't an issue for the CM. To do what it does it has to be far more powerful than any computer we have ever made.

But all the processing power in the world is useless if it can't be reconfigured to do other things.

Even our computers are useless without the right programming.

Without a bios/firmware a computer wouldn't even start up.

The CM would have it's own equivalence to this but being created by an alien race for working with technology far more advance than we are even close to making means there would be nowhere for it even to begin to establish communications with our technology.

7) Depending on how the language of the CM is based on the result of a communication can result in either it acting like a virus to our computers or our computer languaging acting like a virus to it.

8 ) Even if the CM followed the host desire to communicate with our technology. It would have learn our computer code first and reconfiger itself to work with technology that would be completely alien to it.

Like the SCSI capable example, there is nothing that the CM is designed to connect with.

9) The Guyver Unit was designed to bond and bio-boost a living sentient host. It did exactly that with a human host, the only difference is it became a weapon because the host was a weapon.

The Creators were only surprised by two things... 1 was how powerful the Guyver was and 2 was that they could not control a bonded host.

They themselves also got bio-boosted by the armor, and they even stated they are 1/10th as powerful with the armor as a human host is with the unit.

Which means it makes them as strong as zoanoids and that the Unit didn't do anything it wasn't already designed to do.

The Creators themselves said the Guyver problem was an innate problem with the human race, Not the Unit.

10) All examples of technology you can look at for communications have one thing in common, they are all specialized!

No one chip will decode all types of signals and even with the right signals they still need a common communication language to establish a link.

For example you can't have a MAC and PC share information without a special program to translate between them.

This despite the fact that MAC and PC's are basically the same technology and only different in operating systems.

11) The CM keeps a backup of not only the host DNA but also their physical condition and of their mind.

The host is restored to their last memory and body scar when regenerated.

The amount of information that alone is equivalent to is mind boggling enough without the CM also doing something that would be outside its design.

The CM has to both Control the Guyver Unit and interface with the host.

Add that with telepathy there would be no need to interface in any other method for the CM means there would be no need for the Creators to give it the ability to communicate in any other way.

So even if the host wanted to there would be nothing for the Unit to draw upon to establish a link with our technology.

12) The hyper sensors has nothing to do with decoding. It is simply a sensory organ just like our eyes but far superior. It even took Sho a long time before he master it.

Like when he first encountered Zerebubuse he was unable to detect him even though we could see him standing on a roof just a few buildings behind G1.

It wasn't until much later that Sho learned to use them to get more advance perception from them. Which means his brain had to adapt to them just as our brain would have to deal with any new sense or way of perceiving.

The unit didn't automatically process the information for the host.

13) None of our technology is made to interface with the human brain.

While the CM is made to interface with brains.

The Relic in the movie was giving Sean it's memories for example. Even Zoalords can transmit memories to each other like when Prug'stal showed Balcus what he witnessed when Gigantic Guyver first showed itself.

Which shows it's a brain to brain communication. So the CM shouldn't be any more able to link with our technology than a Zoalord.

Btw, the laser was only used in the movie, in the anime and manga the Relic communicated by enveloping the Guyver in a light like energy field and the Guyver CM extended to link the host brain directly with the Relic so the Guyver could pilot the Relic like an extension of their body.

But the key thing to draw from that was that it was a brain to brain link.

Not the type of communications that could ever be adapted to communicate with our technology.

14) Electronics don't respond well to EM fields, for example when the Gigantic Cocoon first took off from within the Chronos research facility at the Dead Sea. It fried all the electronics around it as it took off.

So even if the CM somehow does try to communicate with our technology it could very well fry it in the attempt.

15) Despite having the Gigantic at their disposal, neither Sho nor Agito ever showed any signs they could ever interface with electronics.

So long story short, if you want a Guyver to inferface with human technology, just come up with a good reason like it was specifically designed to do so.

[Aranor]

If you look at my first post in this thread that was exactly what I was pointing to. Istead of the unit having been designed for war it could be designed for scouting and information gathering. I am simply trying to offer Gelionlegends a means for the technology to work.

[*zeo]

If working from the Manga, it has to be a seperate possibility.

The Guyver Unit was never made for War, it was the host that turned it into a weapon because its function is to boost the abilities of the host and humans were created to be weapons.

It also has to logically fit into what we know about the Creators.

Like the WG unit was create after the Creators discovered the Guyver effect and took time for them. It took a logical step of what if they didn't panic and saw the potential instead.

We never went off into a tangent and suggested they were different from the start.

And since it's not a human ability to link with technology then it wouldn't be something the Guyver Unit would naturally do. Since it only boosts the host natural potential.

Alternative would have been to have a human like a Scanner (like the movie Scanners) with the natural ability to link with just about anything. Then the unit would boost that ability.

Or a device like the Matrix which could alter the function of a unit.

Or a specialized Unit made for exploring unknown alien worlds.

Or a new type of Unit, like W'Kar, etc., with abilities totally different from a Guyver Unit.

Now if you want to reinvent the Manga then that's a different story but you have to remember to change all the aspects of the story that would be effected by the change.

[Aranor]

And that would be up to GelionLegions which direction he would want to go. When the parallel world of the W'kar was formed that was pretty much reinventing how the tale goes. Who's to say it could not have gone other ways?

Amd just because the creators are of higher intelligence does not mean they did not have classes amongst them. In GWOTG that aspect has been used. Though beit they all died anyway. All but two we know of.

[*zeo]

Perhaps we are having a communications problem but we never discussed different classes of Creators.

Nothing you have said changes the fact that what you can and can't do in a story is dependent on where you are coming from.

Which you pretty much have to state from the beginning.

If based on the Source then it can't be a regular unit.

Only if you are either adding to the story, with a special or custom unit, or reinventing the story can you do that without conflicting with the original concept.

[Aranor]

Ok, allow me to restate what I am trying to to achieve.

Gelionlegends is looking to create a scouting type guyver unit. My thoughts to do so are to use a ship other than the one which came to earth in the mange. A ship which holds units designed for different functions. One being a unit designed for prolonged exposure in space with defense capabilities but powers more focused on detecting other life forms and determining whether they are a threat. To do so it would need to understand their level of technology. The unit could hold an orb which scans the area through an array of frequencies. Once an advanced species is discovered should the unit be able to find a remotely accessed it can attempt to analyze the form of signal transmitting or recieved by the technology and possibly recreate the signal in hopes of accessing the device. Biological or mechanical. Should it be able to decode the signal it could establish remote access from itself to further seek information.

Unit does not necessarily need a human host.

Scanners is a great analogy. Jake two point o is another. Though a bit low bugdet the concept applies.

[*zeo]

Unless there is a direct need to interact with said explored world.

You could just have a specially equipped Relic do all that work.

Especially if it goes exploring by itself, an actual probe ship would make more sense.

After all for the Creators the Armor was little more than a universal space suit. So it was not something they would automatically look at and say deep space explorer any more than we would look at our space suit and think deep space probe.

Even the Guyver still needs to breath.

Not to mention the units were made before any advance live evolved on Earth.

So the only ones using the units back then were the Creators and I doubt they would want to risk their lives like that.

Though you could have a special device that performs that function.

The Unit Remover did show the Creators made other devices that could work with or on the unit.

So maybe a device the Unit can link to that would give it the needed abilities...

Like a module that would give a unit space travel capabilities and the tools needed to explore.

Or maybe not use a Unit at all and just something similar.

The Creators did use the CM in every device... The Units has one, the Relic has two, even the Unit Remover has one.

So just create a shape shifting probe?