Jess♥

i tink it means time as a constant.. or in ti's true form.. because i think the time that we keep by waches etc is different. I'm not sure exactly how, but i think that watches and are relative to ourselves and teh movement of teh sun and earth and other stuff. but i think that the actual time in spacetime is something that is a bit more mysterious. does that make any sense? I think that I would explain it more like "possibility" or "potential" ? well I don't know what the actual science for this is. is it just me.. maybe i'm tired. I find your words confusing. is it just me ior sre you writing in some complicated way? sorry, I must be tired. that must be it.

I see what you're saying.. a matter of perspective. In that case yes of course you are 100% correct. you don't need war to HAVE peace because they contradict each other. what i was saying about the People keeping the government in check.. I was implying that rioting is a type of war. it's war of People vs government. do we need to be careful without words here. maybe we need to be careful so there are no misunderstandings? sorry if I confused things. i should rephrase what i said earlier you need war to GET peace in some occasions.

excuse me? I asked zeo what logic he was using. I didn't say there wasn't any. I then said there wasn't a shred of logic AS I RECOGNISE IT. explaining my perspective as not understanding how it was logical now you have just been very rude to me. and you told me that I haven't got any good points. way to go upsetting the site admin. don't ask me for any favours any time soon. I take zeo VERY SERIOUSLY. I have debated with zeo on and off for about 5 years. If I didn't take zeo seriously, I wouldn't respond to his posts or advise him how to change his technique.

do you understand the hypocricy of saying this and then saying this

[admin]you did it again. you need to be more careful zeo. we are going to have to make this a guideline of our debating form because you cannot go around giving false facts about the manga. [/admin] hmm, it seems you're jumping to way to many conclusions with that paragraph. why does siphoning energy make something a secondary power source? what kind of logic are you using here? and if it did indicate that it was a SECONDARY power source... why does that mean that the bio boost is not coninuous? if it were not continuous.. as you say.. then that would not make the gravity globe secondary, it would make it primary. and no this would not change what bio-boost is. bio-boost is the description of what the unit-g does. it increases the capability of the host. it is a bio-booster armour. too many assumptions and not even a shred of logic as i recognise it. you really need to throw all your baggage out of the window and start afresh. we may have made a lot of assumptions in the past but please have the decency to recognise them as assumptions and LET GO of them. :wink:

brilliant!! dude, your mind is on fire at the moment!!

that's very true. germany was basically given a pretty bad deal after the first world war. in actuality germany may have been justified to rid itself of the 'invaders on it's own soil'. unfortunately they had a leader who went way too far. but that was just an example, I wouldn't like to go into the politics of early 20th century europe. i edited my last post sorry. I didn't realise you were actually online now. uhm.. yeah i also wanted to add that war is not always fought with weapons and killing. a lot of the time, war can be fought with politics, aversion tactics, barriers etc. just consider the cold war. I'm not suggesting that we need to kill lots of People to have peace. but what I am saying is that leaders very often will want more power. it's an inevitability and the only thing that stops a leader from invading other countries is the fact that the countries are ready to fight for what is theirs. and evn then it doesn't stop them and the only thing that can restore that peace is for the countries to fight.

contradiction much? so as an example... you're saying that the peace that came about after world war 2.... if the uk or america had not declared war, would there have been that peace? no the world would be a massive nazi state killing millions of People who do not have blonde hair and blue eyes. no, war as an act of defence is really quite necessary for peace on every level. declaring war is basically saying "I will not let you bully me" Like i said real love/peace is not complacency. if People do not stand up for themselves and fight their aggressors, the aggressors will go on to hurt more and more people. just to elaborate a bit more.. war is not the worst part here. war is actually the peacemaking action. it is invasion that is the bad part. war is fighting back. apathy would be the worst because if a nation refuses to fight, they get invaded. the invasive force gets more Resources and becomes more powerful and becomes more of a threat to other nations. so apathy (the so called 'peace' ) is the worst enemy. war is actually a movement for peace. before you get the movement to fight for peace, it is not war. I feel the need to elaborate on this very much, I feel like i cannot make myself clear enough on this matter. but i will have to stop there and hope that you have seen the perspective i am trying to give.

@zeo, too long didn't read. your posts are growing and the reason is you are not staying completely on topic. you don't need to argue with me about wether the bio-boster creature was hunting or not. I already said you cannot assume, it is still open. your best responce would be, 'ok i won't make statements like that' or even not to say anything. if you want to debate that, make a new topic. please stay on topic here. I want to think also about zoacrystals. this is pretty much the same issue. zoalords carry massive amounts of energy around with them in the zoacrystal. this must use the same technique as zoanoids storing energy for their mass increase? also, waferdanos was able to compress an entire forest using the zoacrystal. so perhaps the zoacrystal is basically a big unit of the same kind of substance that may be present in human cells? I think maybe a possibility that this type of structure is storing the energy somehow. a crystal structure.... crystals are known for channeling energy. for example a crystal ball is said to channel energy from spirits.

younguyver you couldn't have said it any better. I think i'm totally on hte same page with you there.

zeo please don't say things like this. it seems you have based this on nothing. from what i remember it says nothing of what chronos knows of the Guyver in the manga. this is not something that can be easily stated. please do not make outrageous comments like this, if you need to show chronos' level of knowledge on a subject, please cite from hte source and then expand on your interpretation of it. you need to be careful when generalising. the bio-boost creature did not show any need to hunt, the behaviour of it was unclear. the only clear behaviour was seeking to join with the guyver. we did not see it attack anybody (there was plenty of opportunity with kids around) al we saw was it transform 2 times when confronted. this may be a defence mechanism to scare off a potential threat. once more you are assuming things and stating them like fact. this is an aggressive thing to do and is disrespectful to yoshiki takaya. stop doing it. the Creators had the guyvers. nobody knows how they got the guyvers. there is no evidence that the Creators had any idea how the Guyver worked. a fair question, but with a little more thought you would arrive at the simple answer of efficiency. it's really not too much of a stretch to find that conclusion. why you would omit that i have no idea and it seems you are simply missing out obvious stuff in order to support your theory because a) you LIKE it, or b) you just want to argue. you are an intelligent guy, please act like it. after all that, it seems your posts are growing in size, why is it that you wpost a whole lot more than any person here? i don't know, perhaps it's not really relevan,t but I should point out that while I am discussing in this debate i am still kepping an eye out that the guidelines are being respected. please take care when you post. and try not to post things that can cause a lot of upset like the things I have pointed out. you need to be careful not to post things like that because once posted, the damage is already done. remember that nothing is in concrete if it is not in hte manga, try to keep your assumptions off hte playing field when going into nitty gritty. if you feel yourself coming up with aan assumption, check the Manga first and use a citation instead of a generalisation that may or may not be true. if you really can't be bother to check the Manga then at least rephrase it so that it appears like your own assumption or idea.

perspective. i love that word. yes i LOVE it. he he. well these People who are promoting 'peace and love' are basicaly full of drenn. because what they are promoting is not peace and love, it is ignorance and lust. ask a parent who smacks his/her child why they do it. they will answer they love the child and they smack the child because if they didn't the child would have put their hand in hte fire and gotten badly injured. of course parenting methods are improving so that example may not be 100% accurate in hte modern day. the point I am making is thouhg... love is being harsh. love is understanding. love is accepting people's faults but not letting them hurt you. love is a lot of things, but love is most certainly NOT complacency. and then there's peace.. well i'm sorry but peace is nothing without war. ying yang is very important concept. you can't have light without dark or good without evil. and sometimes in war times, you cannot bring peace without a show of force. what these peoplea ctually want to do is simply bury their head under a rock until all the problems of teh world just magically vanish.. oh and hug a lot which is basically a very light form of lust. real love empowers you. because if you truly love, you can be happy when that person is happy. no matter what that situation is, if they are happy you are happy because you love them. to love anybody unconditionally, you se their inadequacies and you forgive them. you accept that they are human. and you accept that they can make mistakes. and if they are in trouble you help them. the most effective way. if you have to be cruel to be kind then so be it.

thanks dude, good thinking and jukai, it seems we both made the same point in our posts after you edited.

me too. I am finding that it does not hold much ground. the bio-boosting parasite is special. that much has been made clear. that's why aptom - fak Guyver was noting anywhere near as good as guyver. also, if the Creators wanted to have the cells of a human access to hte boost dimension, why not allow them, to continually draw from that power source? anyhow.. I have a problem with trying to say you would need a couple of hundred nuclear explosions to get that energy. well I'm sorry, but that mass can be gained without exploding nuclear bombs. we do it all the time. we eat. we gain mass from our food. mass and energy being interchangeble, they would not need to get some energy from some strange alternate source, all they need to do is feed the combatants. a nice sunday roast versus putting nuclear bombs inside the cells? yeah i prefer that option. we are looking for in this scenario.. a way to store this mass without it actually being mass. we know it is limited so we know it is not a renewable source, it is stored energy/mass. there are becoming many problems with htis idea that the cells bio-boost. it is a possibility, it's not impossible but it's is seeming illogical considering other things. consider a zoanoid that does not get a lot of extra mass. now compare to derzerb. now what determines how much energy a zoanoid is 'ALLOWED' to gain from the boost dimension? if you can get enough energy to add derzerbs mass, then a gregole type zoanoid should have so much energy that he could probably do heat rays from his friggin eyes. going along this train of thought.. it seems that part of the concocction process must have a challenge of changing the cells so that they can store enough material in some way to create the required zoaform. that is why derzerb is a hyper. so this could mean that the ability to effectively store that kind of mass/energy is part of the zoaform itself. does this make sense? if you don't gettit ask me to re-phrase.

you know what... I am liking the chi idea. the reasn is because of how the zoanoids were depicted in the tv series. it seemed to suggest some chi style energy the first time test type transformed. that was my feeling on it. anyway... I am now thinking I want to reject the idea of using the bio-boost mechanic. my reasoning for this? well it's quite simple. the libertus need to go into a biotube to recharge. if tehy could get a boost from hte boost dimension when transforming, they wouldn't need any kind of prior charge, they would get an enormous boost each time and they could actually just turn back to human and change again, getting a lirttle bit more each time. it's actually said somewhere.. i think... that normal zoanoids generate their required energy from eating and that the libertus and enzymeIII only need to go into hte biotube because of their high metabolism. they go in there to recharge. so why would they do that if they could siphon energy from some other dimension. no i don't feel it makes sense at this point. it seems to be in my feeling that when they are put into hte biotube, it is like a clockwork toy being wound up. an interesting thought. heres a science request here . does a wound up spring have more mass that a spring in a resting state?

you are corrrect. taken out of context, each is equally outrageous. taken in the context ofscience fiction, each is as believable as the other... BUT taken in the context of guyver,. I think that we need to lean towards the theory that already has grounds elsewhere in the source material. this is why I have said a number of times now... Is there any other point in the Guyver Manga where it seems that the law of conservation of energy is broken? if there is a point where you can show quite clearly that it is very likely that the law is broken, then we can investigate that, but until there is some actual basis for that kind of theory, it is just pie in the sky IMO. so when you say the above paragraph, it seems that you are not considering the Guyver universe and what has been demonstrated as possible within that universe. so please can we have some proper debate now? instead of a simple game of tennis. let's get some substance in here to analyze. as for teh embryogenesis idea. I am not familiar with that or how it is relevant. you'll need to explain why you have brought that up and your basis for how it relates to the subject. I usually like to use analogy when bringing up a theory.

so what about more types of potential energy?

ok so I am glad somebody mentioned khan. becauser that is interesting. it suggests that a zoanoid is only able to generate extra mass to a degree. after that, they require an influx of actual mass. so what is teh upper limit to mass aquisition? does it tally with anything? jukai, thank you for mentioning the possibility of storing mass. this is what i was talking about when i mentioned conservation of energy. energy cannot be magically stored?.. it causes weight? however.. I think that weight/mass is only one form of potential energy...? there is also the potential energy of a rubber band being stretched. I am uncertain of the science of this, but what if a zoanoid in human form were a really tight elastic band? or something similar? or how about this - zoalords are able to teleport.. this is maybe using quantum mechanics or whatever? maybe this is how zoanoids gain that extra energy? whatever the method... I think it is clear that CRONOS DID NOT DEVELOP THIS.. teh Creators made it so that humans could turn into zoanoids. when cronos develops a zoanoid, teh process they use is usually referred to 'concoction' or 'adjustment' or something like that. meaning they simply fiddle with what is already there? that's my interpretation.

ok yes this all makes sense and I agree that they must increase in mass. it seems pretty conclusive. ok now to question how it would occur. if the ability to siphon energy from the boost dimension was so straight forward to do - zoafication.. then why do we not see chronos making revolutionary power reactors? or perhaps this is something that is built in to every cell of ever human being along with our mitochondria and maybe thats why guyvers power output is higher than the creators? and so chronos would not be able to control this process.. it might be a built in trigger for zoanoid transformation.. that chronos can only UTILISE and then they design hte zoanoid around that.

Hi guys, We have been discussing about how debates are handled here and we have decided some guidelines are needed. please note these are not ultra strict guidelines, as you all know, we are usually pretty flexible with these kinds of things. this is what we have drawn up, any questions pease go ahead. these guidelines are liable to change during initial stages of implimentation. (we will let you know if we change it.)

so when a zoanoid transforms into it's battleform, it seems to gain mass? well first off I think we need to confirm this factor. what evidence do we have that a human form does not have great mass? (the only one i can think of is mizuki helping fumio... but that may or may not be reliable. there may be other factors involved.) can we come up with some way of explaining how a human form has the same mass as his battleform? if not, and there is really a mass discrepancy, how can we go about explaining it? we have already had some idea, but maybe we need to clear it up. while we are talking about this, I think that a good subtopic to be involved in this maybe at a later stage in this thread... conservation of energy and how it applies to the Guyver universe. for example, the miniature explosive that the test-type has with him. I think i remember issues with that. oh well that could come later, let's see how we go.

I don't think we were ever fully clear on that mass issue. maybe we could do a full investigation in a new thread?

that's pretty interesting. it suggests more of an amoeba type behaviour. I get the devouring thing you mentioned. that is easily plausible. can this happen at such a speed? i mean it seems like when aptom attacks, the cells structures seem to destabilise quite quickly? thinking about that though... he attacks Guyver and guyvers cells seem to destabilise, don't they? so perhaps the idea of using zoanoid transformation as a tool.. maybe that is wrong. I like the idea.. but i think it wouldn't work like that with a Guyver maybe. so perhaps this explaination of teh thing is teh best thing to use. and obviously it fits with that interview? what is that interview i never heard of it. I think it would be a good idea to locate that and verify it's exhistence and content.

now.. now that i am mindful of my error, I have gotten hte asteroid 204,000km from earth. this makes sense if it was travelling pretty fast and if it came out at a 'near lunar' orbit. ok so now to measure distance from pov to asteroid and earth. 204,000km from asteroid to earth. 267,000km from pov to earth. 49,800km from pov to asteroid.

ok the very first comparisons are all good. the problem is with working out teh lunar orbit. my first figure of using a 50degree lens as though takaya was working with photographs.. that should be adjusted to 200,000km. the next figure when i decided to try with a 12 degree lens. well the correct fogire for that (taking into account eh change in asteroid size as in my last post) 926,000km now i am thinking this is not good. so actually i think that takaya san is using a more of a phtograph type feel for his images. a 50 degree lens.