spoilers Star Wars : The Force Awakens

[Mirabilis]

"And why not? Yoda was a two-foot green squirt who bested Count Dooku. More training? How much training makes a difference eventually? Luke Skywalker beat Darth Vader - not because he had been trained for a grand total of MAYBE a week (Or? Just how long was Luke tutored by Yoda, anyway? Did he return to Dagobah between 'Empire' and 'Return'? But how much training could he have done, compared to the four decades of Darth Vader?) but because he let the Force flow freely. The power of a Jedi comes from the Force."

 

Yoda bested Count Dooku because he was the grand master, not because of his physical size. You're right Sal. No one needs any training whatsoever. Just give some random person a lightsaber and they cane even beat Darth Sidious, because...reasons. Luke lost his first battle to Darth Vader, both Ben and Yoda told him he needed to complete his training and let his friends be sacrificed. He left and had his hand cut off. In Return of the Jedi, Luke had completed his training. However, Yoda told him he could only call himself a Jedi after he defeated Darth Vader, destroying the Sith and returning the force to the light.

"And what was she fighting with? Luke and Anakin's old light saber. It was shown in the movie itself that objects, especially objects so intensely Force-applied as a light saber, retain 'echoes' of their wielders. Is it possible the sword was 'teaching' her to fight? Or guiding her hand? Kylo Ren was pretty eager to get his hands on it. Because it had belonged to Darth Vader? Maybe, maybe not - Vader made his own light saber (Which presumably blew up with the Death Star), and he desperately wants to be a lord of the Sith, not a Jedi."

I don't believe the lightsabers are these mystical items or objects in the Starwars universe; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Remember Ben talked about them before as did Yoda. They were merely weapons to be used. The power of the Force came from within the individual not the saber itself. I think Kylo wanted it because, as you mentioned, it was once Anakin's, but also because it was an actual lightsaber. Not his jacked up one. He obviously didn't know how to create a lightsaber the proper way.

As far as my comment about us all knowing. I stand by it.

Yeah that is odd. About the film.

You may try to explain these issues way, but they're still issues. I'll drop the subject so you guys can enjoy the movie, I don't want to ruin it for others or turn this into a fight. But you guys asked me to elaborate so I did. I'll end it with this: to me it was a politically correct star wars revamped New Hope movie. It's not the fact that Rey was a girl that I had a problem with. Even if she was a guy and he beat Kylo that way, I would've had the same problem. You can't erase the problems of poor story plotting with merely a gender. Gender doesn't magically make plot holes disappear. And the political message behind the character was my problem as well. Why do characters have to have political messages behind them? If you want to know more I suggest checking out RPP on youtube. He's talked about this same issue extensively. He was so annoyed and upset with the movie he walked out of the theater. Can't blame him either. 

If you guys liked the movie awesome. I enjoyed it to that point. I dunno, hope the next ones better. Who wants to bet it will be a revamped version of The Empire Strikes Back? lol


 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Mirabilis

[Salkafar]

As far as my comment about us all knowing. I stand by it.

 

Okay. In that case I make as my counterpoint that you know you are mistaken.

 

As for the rest: The Force is the deciding factor in these movies... I don't think that there is anything more true about the Star Wars franchise. Kylo Ren's character is unfocused - it is practically his defining characteristic, overshadowed only by his nose. The movie goes out of its way to show that he is powerful, but not certain in his power. Would Vader ever throw a temper tantrum? Even his light saber - as you mentioned - serves to underscore it: the shaft is wavering, almost flickering like flame, unlike Anakin's light sabre's.

 

You do not think light sabres are mystical objects, but Rey received a powerful vision when she came near the sabre, which became much more intense when she touched it. And if they are merely weapons to be used, I doubt someone as practical-minded as Maz Kanata would go through the apparent trouble of recovering it from, I must assume, the atmosphere of Bespin.

 

And Luke's training... but what training was that? Did he receive more training on Dagobah? There seems to be no evidence of that, nor even any indication. No, rather, since Luke brought up the fact that Darth Vader was his father on Yoda's death bed, it seems extremely likely that this is, in fact, the first time he has seen him since he left for Cloud City. The same goes for Obi-Wan's ghost. Did he train on his own? Possible, but then he did it without instruction. And it certainly wasn't the only thing he was doing.

 

Unless we go with your extremely charged interpretation - that Rey's rapid advancement in the Force and overpowering of someone who has in fact received a great deal of training is nothing more than pandering to the 'politically correct society' - we must assume that she had 'trained' in a different way before. She was an exceptional individual - undertaking dangerous missions all alone in a hostile environment without getting crippled, scarred or killed. For years. Without growing cynical or embittered.

We cannot dismiss the notion that she is naturally strong in the Force - Anakin Skywalker was very strong in the Force and was using it without realizing it, in an incredibly dangerous sport, and for engineering. Luke Skywalker was very strong in the Force - although we never really found out how he compared to Anakin - but he learned incredibly quickly, considering Jedi are supposed to receive training from their early childhood... he received very little, yet ultimately proved the better of Darth Vader (Leaving aside whether Vader was weakened in his resolve because he was, after all, facing his own son). I do not think this is different - I think her environment had trained her; that she was already 'primed' so to speak... and Kylo Ren, the Bad Luck Brian of the Dark Side, did precisely the worst possible thing: he triggered it. And then, like a dam bursting, or a machine that was assembled over many years and finally got switched on...  boom.

 

And then the battle is not so much between conflicted, injured Kylo Ren (although perhaps we should look into how well even a highly-trained fighter performs under comparable circumstances) and focused, still-fresh Rey as it is between the Dark Side and the Light Side of the Force... under those circumstances, the one who blinks first inevitably loses.

[Mirabilis]

I'll agree to disagree with you on me mistaking things. You can believe that, doesn't change anything though.

That's what sort of threw me off. The lightsaber calling out to her. Some friends and I spoke on that. We concluded that the force was speaking to her/showing her visions through the lightsaber. But the lightsaber itself didn't have that power. The lightsaber isn't a mystical item with magical powers like Excalibur or the demonic swords from InuYasha that have magical/spiritual powers. But they may change that. I'm drawing on the old movies when they spoke about the weapon. The newer ones might change that though. 

Yeah, Luke was trained after his fight with Vader. They mentioned that, and he was even taught how to build a new lightsaber as a rite of passage for completing his training. He was able to master the Force and was even able to use mind tricks and force choke people in Jabba's palace. Yoda mentions that it was unfortunate that he faced his father before his training was completed. And as I said before, Yoda told him he could only call himself a Jedi after he defeated Darth Vader.

That's really the only thing that I was willing to accept. It made sense that she had some fighting experience. Brawling in the streets for food and stuff. Though I'd find that fighting style would hardly be able to compete with a martial artist or something of the like.

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Mirabilis

[*Jess♥]

so when a girl does it, it's not ok, but when a guy does it, it's fine?
anakin flew into space with no training, and took out the droid ship. he had never sat in a naboo starfighter in his life. you saw what happened to all the other starfighters.

and luke, with no official training, took out the death star.
but I guess this is ok because they are men.

 

Rey had trained plenty with her bo. she had looked after herself her whole life on a tough planet and defended herself with some clear combat skills.

why can't she hold her own against kylo ren? because she's a girl, right?
if it was a guy in that position you wouldn't have batted an eyelid. because that is what movies do. they take characters and make them do amazing things.

[RazorLaser]

***

 

One more thing... Rey used an unusual sort of swinging technique where she sort of jabbed the blade inward, almost like she was pushing it in like a corkscrew. I've only ever seen that motion used in light saber combat by one other person.

 

 

Odd, that.

 

Good eye. Was wondering that myself.

[Salkafar]

That's what sort of threw me off. The lightsaber calling out to her. Some friends and I spoke on that. We concluded that the force was speaking to her/showing her visions through the lightsaber. But the lightsaber itself didn't have that power. The lightsaber isn't a mystical item with magical powers like Excalibur or the demonic swords from InuYasha that have magical/spiritual powers. But they may change that. I'm drawing on the old movies when they spoke about the weapon. The newer ones might change that though. 

Yeah, Luke was trained after his fight with Vader. They mentioned that, and he was even taught how to build a new lightsaber as a rite of passage for completing his training. He was able to master the Force and was even able to use mind tricks and force choke people in Jabba's palace. Yoda mentions that it was unfortunate that he faced his father before his training was completed. And as I said before, Yoda told him he could only call himself a Jedi after he defeated Darth Vader.

That's really the only thing that I was willing to accept. It made sense that she had some fighting experience. Brawling in the streets for food and stuff. Though I'd find that fighting style would hardly be able to compete with a martial artist or something of the like.

 

 

Then I move some objects can become 'imprinted' with the Force, not so much to contain power themselves, but to be strong conduits. I think that is not overreaching. (Think of the cave on Dagobah. Before he even went inside it, Luke sensed that it was strongly imbued with the Force.) The effect remains the same: a stronger connection to the Force, possibly knowledge or added ability associated with the object, such as with psychometry.

 

Say that Luke was trained. Who trained him? Not Yoda, and not Obi-Wan, for the reasons I mentioned before. So if he trained, he was certainly not instructed.

 

I expect we will have some more light shed on Rey's past and her connection to the Force in the movies that follow. I hope that the movies won't be too derivative, will be a bit more 'daring', but somehow I am not worried.

[*Jess♥]

 

One more thing... Rey used an unusual sort of swinging technique where she sort of jabbed the blade inward, almost like she was pushing it in like a corkscrew. I've only ever seen that motion used in light saber combat by one other person.

 

child of palpatine??? wow!!! very intriguing!!! palpatine was incredibly powerful force user, far more powerful than any force user of the time. I think I heard that right.

[Mirabilis]

"So when a girl does it, it's not ok, but when a guy does it, it's fine?
anakin flew into space with no training, and took out the droid ship. he had never sat in a naboo starfighter in his life. you saw what happened to all the other starfighters.

and luke, with no official training, took out the death star.
but I guess this is ok because they are men.

 

Rey had trained plenty with her bo. she had looked after herself her whole life on a tough planet and defended herself with some clear combat skills.

why can't she hold her own against kylo ren? because she's a girl, right?
if it was a guy in that position you wouldn't have batted an eyelid. because that is what movies do. they take characters and make them do amazing things."

 

Did you not read what I said before? I could care less what gender the protagonist is. My beef is with the poor story writing and the political agenda/message behind the film. As I mentioned, all those other awesome heroines were incredibly awesome because they didn't overcome their obstacles just because. Even one of my all time favorite heroines sacrificed herself so others could escape. Talk about a true hero.

No Jess. I never said she couldn't defeat Kylo just because she's a girl. I'm not upset because the main character has a vagina rather than a penis. That's trivial and stupid. You're making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. I already spoke about her fighting capabilities. Yes, she could defend herself in a street brawl. what would that equate to with a lightsaber duelist? Not very well I'd wager. Like I already said, (did you skip through some of my posts?) if it was a guy, if it was Finn, or the X-wing pilot, I'd be just as agitated. I would've been content with her defeating Kylo if she was already a Jedi Knight, or a Master or had some sort of actual training with the Force or a lightsaber. Like I said, it would've been better for her defeating him after she trained with Luke.

anakin flew into space with no training, and took out the droid ship. he had never sat in a naboo starfighter in his life. you saw what happened to all the other starfighters.

That was one of the main reasons Episode I was so horrible and stupid. A little boy blowing up the droid battle ship, accidentally? That whole scenario was pathetic and stupid. He just magically was able to do that. *Sigh*

and luke, with no official training, took out the death star.

Did you forget that Ben Kenobi had started training Luke to trust his instincts and use the Force throughout that movie? He even coached him on what to do and how to use the Force during that whole Death Star battle scene.
 

Edited December 31, 2015 by Mirabilis

[Mirabilis]

Then I move some objects can become 'imprinted' with the Force, not so much to contain power themselves, but to be strong conduits. I think that is not overreaching. (Think of the cave on Dagobah. Before he even went inside it, Luke sensed that it was strongly imbued with the Force.) The effect remains the same: a stronger connection to the Force, possibly knowledge or added ability associated with the object, such as with psychometry.

When you put it that way, it seems more plausible. 

 

Say that Luke was trained. Who trained him? Not Yoda, and not Obi-Wan, for the reasons I mentioned before. So if he trained, he was certainly not instructed.

How do we know Yoda didn't train him? Even Vader says "Obi-Wan had taught you well", implying that Ben did in fact train him. Whose to say Luke didn't return to Degobah and finish his training before going after Han; and then returning back to Degobah again? 
 

I expect we will have some more light shed on Rey's past and her connection to the Force in the movies that follow. I hope that the movies won't be too derivative, will be a bit more 'daring', but somehow I am not worried.

I'm hoping for that too honestly. At least some sort of explanation for her all her incredible power, that will fill in the gap. I still believe she's Kylo's younger sister and will end up killing him. 

 

[*Jess♥]

what is this so called political agenda then? because you mentioned feminist before. that kinda presupposes a bias towards gender. so if you're not talking about gender, then let's forget about feminism, and figure out what you truly have a problem with.

what is the issue?

if it's feminism then it's completely about gender and my counter points stand as 100% relevant. 

[Mirabilis]

No, you're point is that I'm upset that a girl beat a male. That's not the issue; as I've stated numerous times. Just because you want me to have a problem with Rey (because she's a girl), when I've proven otherwise is your own fascination of gender. It's the fact that she did it without any training. As I've stated before, if it was a male I still would've been just as upset. But, this was done to please the feminist crowd. That's where the feminist comes in. A push for the SJW and to please the third wave feminist political correct culture. 

Here's an example of a movie I LOVED that I had NO problems with. Kill Bill. Beatrix Kiddo is a female, I don't care. She kills and bests everyone. I don't care. But you know what, she was trained to do so. She was trained to be the best and most ruthless killer. So it made sense in the story. It wasn't done to please anyone, it was told for the love of the story. No short cuts or political messages behind the film. It was brilliant. Even though she killed the man she loved. It was awesome. I loved it, and had no problems with a female protagonist overcoming a male. Rey? No training, but because they wanted a woman who could beat the villain to prove a point, to please people and to show others how great a girl can be, they had her beat him. Even if Kylo was a girl and it was a girl on girl fight, I still would've felt the same way. Why do you think Rey (who had no training) would be able to beat Kylo, when he not only had training, but beat another person who also had melee training? Why is this so much of a stretch for you to see? It's blatantly obvious.

Before you come back at me as "being some sort of woman hater" because I don't agree with your views or something, know that I'm an egalitarian. I don't identify as MRA or as a Feminist. 

[*Jess♥]

 

A push for the SJW and to please the third wave feminist political correct culture.

so if it was a male, you would still feel this way? I just don't see your logic.

 

so she is better than him without training. so what? big whoop? it just means that this character is badass. the mere fact that she is a girl, makes you angry. why? if it was a male character who beat him without training, what would be your complaint? who would you be blaming? masculists? or would that somehow be feminists fault as well?

if your point is that it is implausible and bad writing, then just leave it at that. why bring in some hate campaign?  that is why it is misogynist. because you're making it about her gender.,

because if a man does something implausible, it's just bad writing, but if a girl does it, it's a political ploy.

 

[Mirabilis]

so if it was a male, you would still feel this way? 
Yes, I would still feel this way if it were a male character.

so she is better than him without training. so what? big whoop? it just means that this character is badass.
If you think that's cool good for you, I find it offensive and pathetic. It means the character was forced to portray a message to all of society.

the mere fact that she is a girl, makes you angry.
No, actually I'm not angry at all about it. I could care less about this movie. You're the only one who appears to be getting angry and calling people names. The movie was just another version of A New Hope. Hardly impressive. The fact that she is a girl is meaningless to me. I don't care that she's a girl. You're the only one who keeps bringing up her gender. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, but it seems you're using selective hearing on this topic.

if it was a male character who beat him without training, what would be your complaint? who would you be blaming?
My complaint would be the same, if it were a male character. I despise many films that have male character leads. Like I said before, gender does not magically make plot holes and poor story plotting go away. Would you like me to list them? I feel exactly the same way about those movies and their lead male characters, as I do about Rey. They're SJW in those movies. And if you go back far enough, they're patriarchal men who force women to seek permission to do even the slightest things. Notable ex: Sinbad and the Seventh Voyage. Pretty offensive message in there too.

if your point is that it is implausible and bad writing, then just leave it at that. why bring in some hate campaign?

Simply because I disagree with the films message, point it out and find it offensive doesn't make my disappointment or my points a "hate campaign". Don't try to use scare tactics and scare words to stigmatize me. Don't lump me in with people who actually hate women and see them as nothing more than sub servant to their male counterparts and beat them.

that is why it is misogynist
Because I point out political messages in films? No, it just means I'm not gullible and not biased to accept what I'm fed without questioning things first.

because you're making it about her gender.,
You're the only one whose making it about her gender. I've shown repeatedly great heroines, movies and films where the lead hero or a main hero was a female. How much I liked them and how great the film was. Yet, that somehow has gone right over your head or doesn't count. Those films were fantastic and didn't have political messages in them. This one did, and because I point it out you have a problem with it. It was bad writing, but it was done on purpose to please others. I don't get why you can't see that. Or maybe you're refusing to?
 

because if a man does something implausible, it's just bad writing, but if a girl does it, it's a political ploy.

No, sometimes it simply is bad writing. Sometimes it's bad writing with a political ploy added in. Plenty of films with both. Bad writing with SJW. Bad writing with Feminist. Sometimes bad writing with MRA scoundrels. Sometimes just bad writing. 

You seem to feel very strongly about this, sense everything I'm saying is going right through your ears, and you're only hearing that I supposedly hate Rey merely for the trivial fact that she has a vagina. A pathetic counter argument. I've already shown and proven otherwise. As I said before, you know what would of fixed all of this? If she was already a fricken Jedi Knight or a Master. Then it ALL would have made sense and would've been fine. Or if she beat the villain after she was trained. I would've been fine with either of those in the film and it would've been great. But they didn't do that. They had her overcome the obstacle just to prove a point. And that's what I have a problem with. Political messages do not belong in Star Wars movies.  

Edited December 31, 2015 by Mirabilis

[*Jess♥]

ok, I think I see what you're saying.

you're saying if it was a male character then it would be a political message by MRA?

 

ok so you seem to be drawing from something here. I assume you have evidence that this was written with a political agenda?

 

I mean a few of us now have brought attention to the many reasons why she was able to fight in the way that she did. and yet you keep brow beating with this political agenda thing. you're just going to have to qualify it because evidently, to us, it seems completely baseless.

 

you wrote an article about this MRA and feminist. so It seems that you spend a lot of time researching these issues. are you sure you're not just seeing issues where there aren't any?

[Mirabilis]

Yeah, here's one article on it. You can find more people talking about it on YouTube too, if you are interested in it. Look, I'm not trying to be mean or sound like a jerk. I just don't like things like that being forced in a film, or series for no reason then for political purposes. If you want me to drop the subject and let you guys move on with others I will. It's not that big of a deal for me to keep talking about it; I only did because some of you asked me to and asked me questions. But if you want to drop it that's fine. 

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/star-wars-the-force-awakens-hero-rey-hailed-feminist-icon

[LordSpleach]

 

***

 

One more thing... Rey used an unusual sort of swinging technique where she sort of jabbed the blade inward, almost like she was pushing it in like a corkscrew. I've only ever seen that motion used in light saber combat by one other person.

 

 

Odd, that.

 

Good eye. Was wondering that myself.

 

I look like to me that came with her time using the bo staff. It seemed the stab was the main attack she could only think of at the time.

Edited December 31, 2015 by LordSpleach

[*Jess♥]

Yeah, here's one article on it. You can find more people talking about it on YouTube too, if you are interested in it. Look, I'm not trying to be mean or sound like a jerk. I just don't like things like that being forced in a film, or series for no reason then for political purposes. If you want me to drop the subject and let you guys move on with others I will. It's not that big of a deal for me to keep talking about it; I only did because some of you asked me to and asked me questions. But if you want to drop it that's fine. 

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/star-wars-the-force-awakens-hero-rey-hailed-feminist-icon

 

judging from that article, it seems the makers were vying for equality and broadening the appeal. some people hailed Rey as a feminist icon, but that's down to those particular fans, not the film makers.

 

do you really view equality as offensive?

 

JJ Abrams says quite clearly he is trying to broaden the appeal. so girls can enjoy the movie as well as boys. so girls can feel strong and powerful too. are you really offended by that?

[Salkafar]

(...) A little boy blowing up the droid battle ship, accidentally? That whole scenario was pathetic and stupid. He just magically was able to do that. (...)

 

Mirabilis, magic is pretty much precisely what the Force is. It is a power which allows unlikely individuals to perform incredible feats. It is not like training for a marathon - it is a spiritual discipline. And Anakin had a stronger connection to the Force than anybody else known.

(...) Ben Kenobi had started training Luke to trust his instincts and use the Force throughout that movie. He even coached him on what to do and how to use the Force during that whole Death Star battle scene.(...)

 

That did not amount to more than a few hours at  most. And 'trusting your instincts'...

 

Well, let's compare Luke, Anakin and Rey.

 

Anakin was a small child who lived in a small world which he literally could not leave, because if he did, his head would explode. He led a mundane life of working, mostly repair and assembly work. And... somehow... pod racing. Throughout it all his mother was there to guide and help him.

Even so, it was established he already was mainlining the Force, and that this allowed him to cripple an attack fleet despite receiving no Jedi training whatsoever.

 

Luke was a young man who lived on a farm which he was actively prevented from leaving. He, too, led a mundane life of working - maintenance and repair work, and moisture farming. He did some flying with a landspeeder. Throughout it all his surrogate parents guided and helped him. He showed little affinity with the force, unless we count his apparent talent for hunting womp rats, but he flew a space ship and destroyed the Death Star with maybe a few hours' worth of training (quite possibly less - the Millennium Falcon is a very fast ship).

 

Rey lived in a comparable situation. Desert planet, little world (how little? It would seem she did not venture far from the settlement), but not exactly a mundane life. Her environment featured aggressive criminals and predators capable of swallowing a TIE-fighter whole, while she had to earn her daily bread - such as it was - by risking her life on a daily basis. She did so alone for we do not know how long. And she did not merely survive, she thrived; her spirit remained unbroken. Now, I am not certain to what extent we should call Kylo Ren's mental attack on her 'training', but it certainly had that effect. And if it was training, it was training for one very specific thing: taking on Kylo Ren.

 

There was one thing I had a little trouble with: her playing a Mind Trick on Daniel Craig*. That seemed kind of a stretch.

Okay... to Han, she speaks of legends about Jedi. So, apparently, she was told stories about what Jedi could do... Mind Tricks seems a pretty obvious example. She was delighted to hear from Han 'It's all true' so she was operating from that notion. So let's try that!

 

All in all... when it comes to the Force, the adagium "I don't have to explain it, it's magic" applies.

 

 

* Yep, that was James Bond.

 

 

[Salkafar]

How do we know Yoda didn't train him? Even Vader says "Obi-Wan had taught you well", implying that Ben did in fact train him. Whose to say Luke didn't return to Degobah and finish his training before going after Han; and then returning back to Degobah again? 

 

Well, firstly, there is no hint of that scenario in any other materials. Everybody seems to agree that, no, he did not return to Dagobah until after they had rescued Han. And secondly: He hadn't brought up the issue of Darth Vader being his father in the hypothetical months of training with Yoda? I cannot believe that. Moreover... it might be a plot point. Had Yoda trained him longer and/or better, then he might not have given in to the Dark Side for even a moment during his final duel with Darth Vader. I am not sure how that would have affected the outcome.

I'm hoping for that too honestly. At least some sort of explanation for her all her incredible power, that will fill in the gap. I still believe she's Kylo's younger sister and will end up killing him. 

I strongly suspect they are siblings, as well, due to the way Star Wars operates, but that would raise the question of how she could have ended up on Jakku. And killing him... hmmm... I don't know, he is conflicted. And there is not a doubt in my mind that he will return stronger. He's finally got a facial scar - I bet he is really happy about that since it makes him more like his beloved idol. (I wonder if he writes Vader fanfic.) I wasn't entirely clear on the further extent of his injuries... poetically, he really should have lost a hand.

 

[Mirabilis]

do you really view equality as offensive?

 

JJ Abrams says quite clearly he is trying to broaden the appeal. so girls can enjoy the movie as well as boys. so girls can feel strong and powerful too. are you really offended by that?

No, the fact that a female Jedi was what he wanted to do and focus on doesn't offend me at all. It's too bad we didn't get a female villain too, sort of like Asajj Ventress. How cool would it have been if that was who the Supreme Leader was? It was sort of the way that he portrayed her though. Like I said, to me, it felt like he was trying to prove a point. It was unnecessary. Just have her become a Jedi and beat the guy; no need for those messages that were clearly put in the film.

 Mirabilis, magic is pretty much precisely what the Force is. It is a power which allows unlikely individuals to perform incredible feats. It is not like training for a marathon - it is a spiritual discipline. And Anakin had a stronger connection to the Force than anybody else known.

Yeah, I know the Force is like that, however I was under the impression that he actually did accidentally blow up the battle ship. He didn't use the Force in that seen. Maybe it was a bad choice of words on my part.

That did not amount to more than a few hours at  most. And 'trusting your instincts'...

He started his training yes, but he also was assisting him/coaching him through that entire battle. Even if it were merely a few hours, that's more than Rey got.

Those are some good points with the three comparison. 

Well, firstly, there is no hint of that scenario in any other materials. 

Well we also have to take into account, that a lot of time had passed between Empire and Return. We also have to take note that Luke gave the droids a mission while he was doing...something. Another thing was how he was far more powerful in Return than in Empire. Able to Force choke two beings at the same time with relative ease. The only Jedi to ever do this. Only Count Dooku and Darth Vader have ever been seen using that technique on screen. As well as his new lightsaber. How would he know how to create one? Where did he know to get the crystal for it? Besides that, building your own lightsaber was a rite of passage as mentioned before. I find it hard to believe that he somehow knew or learned all this in just a few days or maybe one week after Empire. Whose to say Luke didn't ask Yoda, maybe he was more focused on his training.

poetically, he really should have lost a hand.

I thought the same thing too! Maybe he'll cut his own arm off to be just like Vader? Self-mutilation.

Well, remember Kylo killed all of Luke's other students. So I bet you Luke dropped her off on Jakku and then went into hiding due to shame. She was probably a small child while Kylo was a teenager or something of the sort. At least that's what I suspect. I just have a hunch Kylo might kill Luke, Rey's new master. Which to me seems like she'll use the death of both Han and Luke as a tool for revenge. It would be a different take at least. Who knows though, I could be wrong. Would you find it more interesting if both Rey and Kylo tack-teamed the Supreme Leader? haha
 

Edited December 31, 2015 by Mirabilis

[*Jess♥]

Ffs, what messages????

[Mirabilis]

I've already told you Jess in my other posts. It was a feminist message of self-empowerment and independence. Feminist propaganda in a Star Wars movie. I don't care if that's how a person whether male or female wants to live. I don't care if there's a cool female or male hero or villain or whatever. I don't care about the characterss gender, it was the propaganda/movement/message in the film. I don't want to see that stuff in movies, from any kind of organization, political party or activist. I've already explained this. Political messages don't belong in fantasy movies.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Mirabilis

[LordSpleach]

I've already told you Jess in my other posts. It was a feminist message of self-empowerment and independence. Feminist propaganda in a Star Wars movie. I don't care if that's how a person whether male or female wants to live. I don't care if there's a cool female or male hero or villain or whatever. I don't care about the characterss gender, it was the propaganda/movement/message in the film. I don't want to see that stuff in movies, from any kind of organization, political party or activist. I've already explained this. Political messages don't belong in fantasy movies.

 

Except you seem to be assuming it's third wave feminist proganda. You don't have proof and the movie was doing the usual Star Wars thing of having strong characters.

[Mirabilis]

 I've already shared one article that spoke on the intentions of Abrams and take note that I'm not the only one who caught this or feels this way. Just look on social media or YouTube. You'll see many agree with what I'm saying, some even elaborate further than I have. Some of those people I agree with, others I don't. I'm not assuming anything, it's evident in the movie. It was a girl power, feminist propaganda Star Wars. A new p.c. version of A New Hope. Just watch it. It's blatantly obvious. Even some of my friends who just saw it last night said they felt the same way I do. Others have too. Look if you liked the movie awesome. Good for you, I didn't like it because of the propaganda. Don't know why you all think I shot the sacred cow just because of that. 

[*Jess♥]

don't you see how it's offensive to us that you keep saying it's blatantly obvious. you are pretty much suggesting we are stupid because we just don't see ANY propaganda.

you haven't already told me.

you keep saying that there are obvious messages, you keep referencing these clear political messages, but you have not ONCE actually explained what these messages are and where they are.

 

an obvious message would be something like rey looking at the screen and saying "I am gonna beat this guy because I'm a feminist!"

that is an obvious message. there are no obvious messages.

 

that article explained that JJ Abrams wanted to make the films have a wide appeal. that's just doing his job. not a political statement. you're saying that because rey apparently became so good without any training (DESPITE the fact that we all know the force is a mysterious and unpredictable thing) it is OBVIOUSLY a political message.

that's just post hoc ergo propter hoc. it's not a valid argument.

you really need to start qualifying your assertions because you are not giving us anything here. it's still coming across misogynist.