Tales Posted December 6, 2009 Author Posted December 6, 2009 as for saying that about avatar, that it's just a retelling of pocahontas? well there is a very important principle in storytelling. that there are only 7 stories. every book or film you can look at, can be compared directly to a classical story archetype. by comparing avatar to pocahontas is a classic comparison the same ilk has been done a thousand times before. What are the 7 stories? Quote
*Jess♥ Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 1. Overcoming the monster -- defeating some force which threatens...e.g. most Hollywood movies; Star Wars, James Bond. 2. The Quest -- typically a group setoff in search of something and (usually) find it. e.g. Watership Down, Pilgrim's Progress. 3. Journey and Return -- the hero journeys away from home to somewhere different and finally comes back having experienced something and maybe changed for the better. e.g. Wizard of Oz, Gullivers Travels. 4. Comedy - not neccesarily a funny plot. Some kind of misunderstanding or ignorance is created that keeps parties apart which is resolved towards the end bringing them back together. e.g. Bridget Jones Diary, War and Peace. 5. Tragedy - Someone is tempted in some way, vanity, greed etc and becomes increasingly desperate or trapped by their actions until at a climax they usually die. Unless it's a Hollywood movie, when they escape to a happy ending. e.g. Devils' Advocate, Hamlet. 6. Rebirth - hero is captured or oppressed and seems to be in a state of living death until it seems all is lost when miraculously they are freed. e.g. Snow White. 7. Rags to Riches - self explanatory really. e.g. Cinderella & derivatives (all 27,000 of them)!!! this is one variation. the point is, pretty much all stories all draw from the same basic elements. you say that eragon was a rip off of star wars... personally, I never made that link at all. I did however see strong similarities between the first harry potter and star wars. so it can also depend on your point of view. Quote
*Jess♥ Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 i find that usually, a creator has a certain vision and the rest is built around that vision. for example, terminator was conceived from a nightmare that james cameron had of a killer robot that could not be stopped. essentially, the main vision for the film terminator is the end part where the robot is stripped down and chasing sarah through the machinery. the rest of the film was then built around that. so when you get an adaptation, you have to depend on that persons vision of the book/comic/etc. when you or i watch a show or read a book or whatever, we will each have our favourite parts. what you call adaptation decay is otherwise known as individual preference. it all comes from the initial vision. it's all about communication. communication of an idea. the film maker is not making the film for you. they are making it primarily for themself. as with all artwork, it is a very personal thing. of course in many studios, the art is destroyed and it becomes more of a technical production. you can tell when a procduction has been ruined when you get major continuity issues and similar problems. or you get something with no passion. or you get "wild wild west." Quote
Tales Posted December 6, 2009 Author Posted December 6, 2009 1. Overcoming the monster -- defeating some force which threatens...e.g. most Hollywood movies; Star Wars, James Bond. 2. The Quest -- typically a group setoff in search of something and (usually) find it. e.g. Watership Down, Pilgrim's Progress. 3. Journey and Return -- the hero journeys away from home to somewhere different and finally comes back having experienced something and maybe changed for the better. e.g. Wizard of Oz, Gullivers Travels. 4. Comedy - not neccesarily a funny plot. Some kind of misunderstanding or ignorance is created that keeps parties apart which is resolved towards the end bringing them back together. e.g. Bridget Jones Diary, War and Peace. 5. Tragedy - Someone is tempted in some way, vanity, greed etc and becomes increasingly desperate or trapped by their actions until at a climax they usually die. Unless it's a Hollywood movie, when they escape to a happy ending. e.g. Devils' Advocate, Hamlet. 6. Rebirth - hero is captured or oppressed and seems to be in a state of living death until it seems all is lost when miraculously they are freed. e.g. Snow White. 7. Rags to Riches - self explanatory really. e.g. Cinderella & derivatives (all 27,000 of them)!!! this is one variation. the point is, pretty much all stories all draw from the same basic elements. you say that eragon was a rip off of star wars... personally, I never made that link at all. I did however see strong similarities between the first harry potter and star wars. so it can also depend on your point of view. Could there be an 8th or 9th? Quote
Tales Posted December 6, 2009 Author Posted December 6, 2009 (edited) Something to ponder could it be possible that our new modern culture might be the cause of this kind of creativity drain? here's an extract from the Hero of a 1000 faces, "Sometimes an entire culture colludes in the gradual destruction of its own panoramic spirit and breadth of its teaching stories. Purposefully, or without awareness, this is done by focusing almost exclusively only on one or two story themes, inhibiting or forbidding all others, or only excessively touting a favorite one or two. Whether these narrowly defined or overly vaunted stories are predictable and repetitive ones about the same aspects of sex or violence, over and over again, and little else, or they are about how sinful or stupid people are, and how they ought be punished—the effect is the same. The story tradition becomes so narrowed that, like an artery that is clogged, the heart begins to starve.<br><br>Then the psyches of individuals may resort to scraps and tatters of stories offered them via various channels. And they will take them, often without question, the same way people who are starving will eat food that is spoiled or that has no nutritional value, if none other is available. They might hope to find such poor food somehow replenishing, even though it can never be so—and might sicken them to boot. In a barren culture, one or two fragmentary story-themes play, like a broken record, broadcasting the same notes over and over again. At first it may be slightly interesting. Then it becomes irritating. Next it becomes boring and hardly registers at all. Finally it becomes deadening. The spirit and mind and body are made narrower, rather than radiant and greater, by its presence, as they are meant to be." Phew's that's a lot to type. Edited December 6, 2009 by Tales Quote
*Jess♥ Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 this might have been true in the past, when cultures were mostly isolated. in modern society there is an intermingling of cultures and so even if one culture starts to falter, another one succeeds. Quote
*Jess♥ Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Could there be an 8th or 9th? technically, yes. I guess there could. but that is like saying "can there be 4 or 5 instead of 3 little pigs?". the point is that you can put anything in a box. you can categorise it by whatever means you choose. when Armageddon first came out, another film also came out called deep impact. on the surface you might say that one film was copying the other. but in truth, the two films were very different affairs. it is just the main theme was the same. a giant meteor. perhaps it is good to point out the obvious similarity because then you can concentrate on other factors. while there is 7 stories, there are infinite variations on those. a story can always catch you off guard, I watched something last night and a shocking thing happened, I never saw it coming. I usually get some hint of things before they happen but this caught me completely off guard. it was pretty special. Quote
*YoungGuyver Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 i find that usually, a creator has a certain vision and the rest is built around that vision. for example, terminator was conceived from a nightmare that james cameron had of a killer robot that could not be stopped. essentially, the main vision for the film terminator is the end part where the robot is stripped down and chasing sarah through the machinery. the rest of the film was then built around that. so when you get an adaptation, you have to depend on that persons vision of the book/comic/etc. when you or i watch a show or read a book or whatever, we will each have our favourite parts. what you call adaptation decay is otherwise known as individual preference. That's not true. Cameron DID say that during official interviews, but offscreen he admited that he ripped off Harlan Ellison. Terminator was based off of two Harlan Ellison short stories that were filmed for the original Outer Limits series back in the 60's. The first story is Soldier, about men that are trained to be the perfect killing machines, cold emotionless, and never stopping-whom get sent back in time. The Demon with the Glass Hand is about an android sent back in time to protect humanity. There was a lawsuit involved, and Harlan's name had to be added into the credits of the first movie. Quote
*Jess♥ Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 That's not true. Cameron DID say that during official interviews, but offscreen he admited that he ripped off Harlan Ellison. Terminator was based off of two Harlan Ellison short stories that were filmed for the original Outer Limits series back in the 60's. The first story is Soldier, about men that are trained to be the perfect killing machines, cold emotionless, and never stopping-whom get sent back in time. The Demon with the Glass Hand is about an android sent back in time to protect humanity. There was a lawsuit involved, and Harlan's name had to be added into the credits of the first movie. really? wow, there's something i never heard. you learn something new everyday. I'm sure it doesn't change the vision though? I mean, that scene is the climax of the film isn't it? Quote
*YoungGuyver Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Are you referring to the part where they crush the robot with the hydrolic press? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwyyJ3D3g1E And now we can delve into Avatar, apparently http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2009/10/james-cameron-stole-avatar-question-mark I really want to see this one, it looks great Quote
durendal Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 With the current trends of movie coming out of hollywood, I no longer expect something new from them. Instead, I see them as an avenue for lesser known series to reach out a wider audience range. One good example is Twilight. Before, they were just books written by Stephanie Mayer. With a small following around the world, now that the movie's come out, it became a phenomenon. You might say that one positive thing about Hollywood is that they can really hype things up. Before the Harry Potter movies came out, I have never heard of J.K. Rowling. And Tom Clancy was just some other author before Hunt for Red October was released. What I'm getting at here is that even though Hollywood has lost its ability to be creative (originallity-wise), they have evolved into a medium that would make an unknown famous. Quote
Tales Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 With the current trends of movie coming out of hollywood, I no longer expect something new from them. Instead, I see them as an avenue for lesser known series to reach out a wider audience range. One good example is Twilight. Before, they were just books written by Stephanie Mayer. With a small following around the world, now that the movie's come out, it became a phenomenon. You might say that one positive thing about Hollywood is that they can really hype things up. Before the Harry Potter movies came out, I have never heard of J.K. Rowling. And Tom Clancy was just some other author before Hunt for Red October was released. What I'm getting at here is that even though Hollywood has lost its ability to be creative (originallity-wise), they have evolved into a medium that would make an unknown famous. Agreed. Originality has become the extinct animal. Quote
Tales Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 "It is from innocent children that I learned what happens when a young soul is held away from the breadth and meaningful nuances of stories for too long. Little ones come to earth with a panoramic ability to hold in mind and heart literally thousands of ideas and images. The family and culture around them is supposed to place in those open channels the most beautiful, useful, deep and truthful, creative and spiritual ideas we know. But very many young ones nowadays are exposed almost exclusively to endless "crash and bash" cartoons and "smack 'em down" computer games devoid of any other thematic components. These fragmentary subjects offer the child no extensive depth of storyline. When I have taught children as an artist-in-residence in the schools, I have found that many children were already starved for deep story before they had reached second grade. They tended to know only those from sit-com television, and they often reduced their writings to these drastically narrowed themes: "A man killed another man." "He killed him again and again. Period." "They lived, they died. The end." Nothing more." Could this be another factor? Food for thought for everyone... This discussion is getting exciting. Quote
durendal Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 From that speech, I get the impression that it's blaming video games. True enough, video games of today are more reliant on sharp graphics rather than in-depth puzzles. Of course there are still a select video games out there with true story, but gone are the days where you actually need your wits to play a game. Games like Incredible Machine which requires logical thinking are no longer made. Only popular games like Halo, and any shooting games seems to be famous. Although intellect-wise they prove to be no challenge, research shows that children that play these games have improved reflex as well as hand and eye coordination. Quote
Tales Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 Not just video games but other media like cartoons that have no story.etc might had the same kinda effect. Including Tv shows... Quote
*Jess♥ Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 not that i want to digress much, but since it was said about video games, I'd like to point out games like the half life series. you most certainly have to use your brain for these in many places. especially the portal game. also, there is not always an emphasis on graphics, since we have games like Braid. but i guess we are focused more on the main chunk of the market here, right? Quote
Tales Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 Yes movies, games, anime....etc the media seem to have lost some form of creativity.. Spectre as a long time watcher of anime is noticing the sharp drop of it and he spoke about it in his recent conversations. Quote
durendal Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 In terms of creativity, I don't think that it's a drop in quality but more in the increase of our own standards. If you continue to watch similar series, you'll eventually figure out the trend, and thus gets boring. I can site an example here using Final Fantasy. When FF6 was released, everyone was wowed by it. But when FF7 came out, old players dissed FF7 in favor of FF6, while new players were awe strucked by FF7. When FF8 came out, the same thing happened, old players of FF7 hated FF8 while new players loved FF8. I can you can say that this theory may also be applied in the Kamen Rider debate we had a few months back. link: http://www.japan-legend.com/forum/index.php/topic/2439-whats-wrong-with-todays-rider/ All media is prone to boredom if one continues to be exposed to it. also, the main chunk of the market consists of games/media sponsored by big companies, giving them so much exposure and hype, that when you actually see it, it's really not big a deal. In the end, it all comes down to advertising, with the major sponsor dictating how a media should be, thus, inputs are made in the board room instead of leaving the creative reins on the editorial. So, in effect, it's not really the fault of the writers, but the fault of their bosses who pays for them. This is why there are so many underrated games/media out there. Quote
Tales Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 In terms of creativity, I don't think that it's a drop in quality but more in the increase of our own standards. If you continue to watch similar series, you'll eventually figure out the trend, and thus gets boring. I can site an example here using Final Fantasy. When FF6 was released, everyone was wowed by it. But when FF7 came out, old players dissed FF7 in favor of FF6, while new players were awe strucked by FF7. When FF8 came out, the same thing happened, old players of FF7 hated FF8 while new players loved FF8. I can you can say that this theory may also be applied in the Kamen Rider debate we had a few months back. link: http://www.japan-leg...h-todays-rider/ All media is prone to boredom if one continues to be exposed to it. also, the main chunk of the market consists of games/media sponsored by big companies, giving them so much exposure and hype, that when you actually see it, it's really not big a deal. In the end, it all comes down to advertising, with the major sponsor dictating how a media should be, thus, inputs are made in the board room instead of leaving the creative reins on the editorial. So, in effect, it's not really the fault of the writers, but the fault of their bosses who pays for them. This is why there are so many underrated games/media out there. Hmm so can I say that what we need a "boss" who thinks like a writer but at the same time must be able to surprise the fans! Quote
Tales Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 Also Durendal is actually partial correct when he said Hollywood and stuff at the beginning of the topic. They call it cultural imperialism. "Artists around the world are on guard against “cultural imperialism,” the aggressive export of Hollywood storytelling techniques and the squeezing out of local accents. American values and the cultural assumptions of Western society threaten to smother the unique flavors of other cultures. Many observers have remarked that American culture is becoming world culture, and what a loss it would be if the only flavorings available were sugar, salt, mustard, and ketchup. This problem is much on the minds of European storytellers as many countries with distinct cultures are drawn into a union. They are striving to create stories that are somewhat universal, that can travel beyond their national borders, for local audiences may not be numerous enough to support the always-growing cost of production. They are competing with intensely competitive American product that aggressively courts the world market. Many are studying and applying American techniques, but they also worry that their unique regional traditions will be lost." The Writer's journey. Quote
Tales Posted December 24, 2009 Author Posted December 24, 2009 the ones who have the money will not invest in any talent, because they see it as a risk. so you see the talent coming through in independent cinema instead. it is indeed hollywood and similar studios losing their talent. they are not investing in their 'fertiliser' and their soil is not yielding good crops. there have been some good films coming to our cinemas though. i don't know if this is due to dealing with different studios or due to some other influential factors. you'd have to ask an industry analyst. films like stardust. What's the bigger risk in your definition? Like say would you want to invest in a movie that ends up like box offices flop like Dragonball Evolution and get flamed by fans---> lose profits? Quote
durendal Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 the ones who have the money will not invest in any talent, because they see it as a risk. so you see the talent coming through in independent cinema instead. it is indeed hollywood and similar studios losing their talent. they are not investing in their 'fertiliser' and their soil is not yielding good crops. there have been some good films coming to our cinemas though. i don't know if this is due to dealing with different studios or due to some other influential factors. you'd have to ask an industry analyst. films like stardust. What's the bigger risk in your definition? Like say would you want to invest in a movie that ends up like box offices flop like Dragonball Evolution and get flamed by fans---> lose profits? But then, that's the predicament of movies being made in the box office. Using your example, they invested in Dragonball because it was already a household name. Everybody knows about dragonball, and thus, they expected the name itself to carry the movie. Also, the most common thinking that Hollywood has is that they want to make a movie that would be enjoyed by everyone. With this thinking alone, die hard fans would be very critical of how the movie will be directed. Which is why the story and setting of the Dragonball movie has been somewhat tweaked so that it would suite the taste of average joe who has no knowledge of the movie. Of course this move will irrate long time fans. But then, this is where it gets tricky. If they make a movie that is very faithful to the original source, wouldn't this be what you would call "media losing their creativity"? Quote
Tales Posted December 24, 2009 Author Posted December 24, 2009 the ones who have the money will not invest in any talent, because they see it as a risk. so you see the talent coming through in independent cinema instead. it is indeed hollywood and similar studios losing their talent. they are not investing in their 'fertiliser' and their soil is not yielding good crops. there have been some good films coming to our cinemas though. i don't know if this is due to dealing with different studios or due to some other influential factors. you'd have to ask an industry analyst. films like stardust. What's the bigger risk in your definition? Like say would you want to invest in a movie that ends up like box offices flop like Dragonball Evolution and get flamed by fans---> lose profits? But then, that's the predicament of movies being made in the box office. Using your example, they invested in Dragonball because it was already a household name. Everybody knows about dragonball, and thus, they expected the name itself to carry the movie. Also, the most common thinking that Hollywood has is that they want to make a movie that would be enjoyed by everyone. With this thinking alone, die hard fans would be very critical of how the movie will be directed. Which is why the story and setting of the Dragonball movie has been somewhat tweaked so that it would suite the taste of average joe who has no knowledge of the movie. Of course this move will irrate long time fans. But then, this is where it gets tricky. If they make a movie that is very faithful to the original source, wouldn't this be what you would call "media losing their creativity"? They just have to use it in the right way. But if it's a franchise with over decades of history, and they just tweak it until it's unrecognizable and even not faithful to the franchise. That's cheating the "average joe who has no knowledge" and irriating long time fans. This will risk even more becos the fans will get word around that it sucks and the investors will over time lose their investments. Let a look at a franchise like Transformers, if M. Bay did not care to go to Hasbro and learn about the franchise[which in my opinion Bay shouldn't have been chosen to be director.] I can bet with you that the fans will not like it and will want to kill him. Quote
durendal Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Yes, that is indeed true. The quality of the movie does not solely depend on one person but the efforts of many. What use would be a good script if the director fails to deliver what movie goers expect. Also, what good would be a great director if the script is lacking. There are many opinions about different films, the same can be said for the makers of films, since there are producers, directors, writers and etc. No one single factor can make a film a box office success. In the case of Dragonball, even though it has the name, it lacked the grand vision from the part of the movie makers to make it a success. On the part of Transformers, again, they have the name, however, the creative team behind the movie managed to get the compositions right to have a box office success. However, even though it was a box office success, there are still many long time fans that hated the "bayformers". Quote
Tales Posted December 24, 2009 Author Posted December 24, 2009 Yes, that is indeed true. The quality of the movie does not solely depend on one person but the efforts of many. What use would be a good script if the director fails to deliver what movie goers expect. Also, what good would be a great director if the script is lacking. There are many opinions about different films, the same can be said for the makers of films, since there are producers, directors, writers and etc. No one single factor can make a film a box office success. In the case of Dragonball, even though it has the name, it lacked the grand vision from the part of the movie makers to make it a success. On the part of Transformers, again, they have the name, however, the creative team behind the movie managed to get the compositions right to have a box office success. However, even though it was a box office success, there are still many long time fans that hated the "bayformers". Trust me I was one of those long time fans. But as I became an amatuer CG artist, I can see that the boxy old designs would look unrealistic in realistic lighting situations despite being easier to render. But then the Transformers live action movie was just a new interpretation of the old franchise. Franchises change according to time. However Dragonball evilution movie will never be regarded as part of the Dragonball franchise as it's not faithful to the original even in one tiny bit. For example, instead of making piccolo the villain. They can either use Freeza whom even non fans like me also knew that he's the villain. Piccolo was not a villain but on contrast an friend of Goku! They got it totally all wrong! However if one want's creativity they might as well make something new like Avatar! And I just watched the movie btw. Apart from the biological issues with the flying animals, the story feels like watching Star Wars or Jurassic Park as a kid, the sense of wonder!! I haven't feel that for a decade since the creativity slump in the 2000s Quote
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