What's wrong with today's Rider?

[Tales]

Now that Decade has ended, I think we can I can judge Decade more fairly.

Ok well Decade has overall fallen short of the fans expectations and thus perhaps the one of the biggest disappointments in Rider history

T_T

WHERE HAVE ALL THE GOOD SCRIPTWRITERS GONE!!!!!

[*V Guyver]

You know, one of the things that turns me off in Kamen Rider is the monsters at times. A good portion of them look serious and cool. But as of late, as monsters should be looking bigger and badder. A lot of them have started to look like giant deformed cartoon characters. Sometimes it's the CG, sometimes it's the costume. Overall it's the design that fails in both aspects. Remember the spider in Ryuki? It was a pretty good design despite the CG effects hampering some of the interaction. But in the recent Kamen Rider, we have a dude walking around with a T-Rex head attached to human legs... Am I wrong in despising the T-Rex head on humans look? Now this is forgivable in the Super Sentai series like the power rangers which is geared entirely to children in both Japan and (especialy) internationaly. But Kamen Rider has it's teenage and adult fans. I wish the series would start moving back into the horror aspect like it did a long while back, especially with their monster designs.

If you have a silly or crappy looking villain, then having a supped up hero doesn't really matter, because there will be no interest in seeing him beat up the villains. you need good villains, even the monster of the week ones to be remotely threatening so that we can at least be left at awe at something.

[*Jess♥]

this is why story is important and character development.

the emphasis in some of the better Japanese shows is the story and the characters.

the previous Kamen Rider shows weren't good because of "cool" monsters, they were good because of good story. if they didn't have good story you wouldn't even know about the series. it would not be popular at all.

also, I'm not sure if you fully get the design of the t-rex guy. his human body was a surrogate for the head which then built a full dinosaur body out of scrap. now I don't know about you, but I find that incredibly cool.

or would you have preferred something like the super mario bros hollywood movie?

I'm really not a fan of this western myth that cool = dark twisted features and lots of spikes. or long trenchcoat and emo hair and bad mood.

in my opinion, a good design is something that looks like what it represents.

[*V Guyver]

I get your reasons. But people can do both good designs/special effects and plot. There's little reason to sacrifice either one unless your budget is way low. Aside from hard times, you really don't need a hero to have to fight monsters that look laughable. I try to get into Kame Rider in a serious way (since it usually is dramatic in some way) only to burst out laughing when the most recent enemy turns out to be a talking halfman-half hamster with trashcan motif armor even if it turns out that said monster is the long lost twin sister of the protagonist...(and you know you'll love this ridiculous plot because it's presented in such a dramatic way.) See my point? Maybe I am being a bit unfair. But that's just me.

Ah, and I am indeed aware about the separate T-Rex body, as you can clearly see the same dino head attached to it later. But it still look dorky and pretty damn strange to boot. Actually, the whole affair reminds me of this motorcycle exibit they had in New Jersey years back. It had several stands from local businesses trying to showcase their work. And like any business fair they'll try and get your attention. Well in this case, I ran into something similar to the T-Rex head. Except it was a torso-less legs walking about with a giant helmet with several samples of the custom helmet art the group was selling. Overall, I think running into that in real life made me less impressed by torso-less legs.

[*Jess♥]

i agree with the sentiment i believe you are describing.

this is why i am very disappointed with recent sentai series'.

the plot is so incredibly weak.. it's like butter spread over too much bread.

even if there were not any plot, if they had decent monsters or vehicles, it may make up for it in some way. or the other way around.

as it happens, plot is totally lame, monsters and vehicles are totally lame.

it makes me think... why are they not paying attention to what tomica hero are doing.

even the designs of tomica hero monsters are laughable. but the special effects of their vehicles and the fights are so awesome and so well done, I don't mind the bad designs so much.

[Tales]

Hi V Guyver I did had the same opinions and sentiments as you... However it just dawned on me that its not just Rider but overall entertainment has been going down slope recently. I believe Spectre555 has sensed the same thing in anime as well.

Anyway the same thing happened in the Transformers franchise when Revenge of the Fallen came out or when the Transformer movie franchise came out... I believe the debate is just as fierce as the Rider debates.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Tales

[*V Guyver]

Oh definitely. A lot of Japanese show's have gotten an overall quality downgrade. But it will eventually reverse, if not in Japan, then eventually in Korea or possibly China. Which brings me to another point. Korean & Chinese TV show's are catching up to Japan's, and have begun to cut into their profits from what I read. Not that the japanese studio's are in any trouble, but just gives you an idea about some of the problems they have trying to get dedication to a series.

The same has happened to American cartoons, Especially in American cartoons. Ever since Warner Bros closed it's studio's again (after Pink and the Brain was canceled. What the hell were they thinking throwing in the most hated character from Tiny Toons into that series?) The animation world just hasn't been the same. Which is why we get crap like transformers... and why very simple low brow animation like Family Guy dominates. The only exception was Avatar, and it seems no one is willing to follow in that shows trend. The 90's had been the Silver era of animation, while the Loony Toons era was the gold. Now, we are in the copper era... I'm an avid cartoon fan. Me actually loosing interest in just about every cartoon show on the market is pretty much a good indicator of the problems around here. Hell... it's why Anime is the norm in the USA now.

[LordSpleach]

Now I haven't seen enough Rider shows to form a true opinion of this topic, BUT I think this vid gives points to the Showa Riders.

I don't think any Heisei Era Riders had the balls to sing their own theme song.

Edited March 30, 2010 by LordSpleach

[*Jess♥]

apart from kiva. and den-o.

[LordSpleach]

I guess I stand corrected.

[Guest Deka-RyuRanger-Red]

And Decade

[Toku Warrior]

And IXA, Saga, DiEnd and Double (Finger on the Trigger track in-series.

But all the Heisei's that we've just listed have sung their own ED/Insert music. No Heisei has done the music for the OP theme to their own series.....yet. Maybe Toei will read this or just take a note from KR Black and give it another try.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Toku Warrior

[Guest Deka-RyuRanger-Red]

Erm, I know for a fact koji seto did roots of the king, so unless wataru became saga wen I wasn't looking, I afraid he not in that list.

[*Jess♥]

And IXA, Saga, DiEnd and Double (Finger on the Trigger track in-series.

But all the Heisei's that we've just listed have sung their own ED/Insert music. No Heisei has done the music for the OP theme to their own series.....yet. Maybe Toei will read this or just take a note from KR Black and give it another try.

I already said about den-o dude.

don't you remember the OP being sung by the cast ?

[Toku Warrior]

@Deka - If I recall correctly, the ReUnion CD had Roots of the King done in a version with Taiga's actor doing the vocals. But, yes, your are correct when referring to the original version of Roots of the King. Though, Setou did every Rider's theme in Kiva though those Rider's actors had their time to shine vocally when certain CD's got released.

@Ryuki - I was talking about the original versions. Sorry for not making that clear. My bad.

[durendal]

Double has been shown for pretty much long time now. Since I have not watched it yet I cannot give any much opinion. For any of you guys that does follow double, how does the show fare compared to the previous Heisei Riders. Has it continued to deteriorate or does it have any redeeming qualities after the fiasco that is Kiva? Based on Toku's avatar and sig, I'd say he's pretty much enjoying the show.

[*Jess♥]

double is very much a new beast.

the ratings for it are totally different from past series.

also, as the production team is totally different, the production values are different. it does feel very different.

I don't have the same drive to watch as i had with past series, it is a very different feeling altogether.

whether this is bad or good, is difficult to say. it's always subjective.

I will say that i do enjoy it though.

[*V Guyver]

He has a point, when will these shows actualy take a step in a realistic direction. Realy, if the US did a power rangers unit in real life. They would not be bright andshiny spandex wearing people. No, they would be badass looking guys who probably would have a camp look and maybe a few important visual trade identifying their rank or style of combat.

Just fuse a ragular Sentai characte with this image and you might get a better idea of how cool a new series could be.

[Guest Deka-RyuRanger-Red]

@toku, I didn't know taiga did a version of rotk, so soz bout that. And while it is tru that koji seto did do IXAs first theme, nago's version was featured in the series. Taiga's version wasn't. That's the defining factor for me I think.

And was it not just the imagin's who did the second version of climax jump?

[*Jess♥]

well technically they are the cast.

v-guyver, it disturbs me to be honest, the culture of the US, where everyone seems to think that 'cool' = dark and moody.

there is nothing wrong with strong colours and in most cultures, strong colour is a sign of true prestige.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss6z-W-JAQ8

I would really hate to see the richness of another culture being dragged down by the batman/crow emo culture.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with having batman style things, but that is part of that culture and is 'cool' in it's own unique special way.

the strong colours in sentai and kamen rider series are a symbol of purity and power.

and anyway, this thread is about kamen rider so why are you talking primarily about sentai and power rangers?

[*V Guyver]

It's not a matter of dark and moody. I actually enjoy a bit of flashiness myself. But I do appreciate practicality. If you are trying to be a discrete and effective heroic combatant, you do not do the following:

1.Announce your attack names... this gives your enemy way to many hints as to how to beat you.

2.You try to sneak into an enemy base... why are you wearing bright yellow and pink?

3.All those cool moves and powers, but you don't seem to realize that using the finisher at the start would avoid the needless waste of energy spent in the actual battle.

4.Using military live combat tactics should be a given... so why do these guys fight purposely in battles in battles that could otherwise be fought more cleverly?

5.W-Wait, you have the ability to transform your motorcycle into a deadly weapon. Yet you don't use the build in weapons or it's super speed and traveling abilities as much as you should, thus causing needless females in your group to be kidnapped and allies killed because you decided to run across half the city then summon the bike our your traveling abilities.

That's just a few qualms. I don't mind mindless fun, but every so often, I would like development to move beyond that of the mentality of a 12 year old's fanfiction. They do all the good backstory and personality of the characters correctly, but not anything else related to the plot... it's a weird needless trade off. So think about it, if you were were a Kamen Rider and you had the ability to alter your look. Woudn't you want to get a design that actualy benifits the battle? Meh, Maybe I'll set up a artist's impression of wa Kamen Rider mixed with some of those traits. I am in no way wanting to change all of the stuff, and make it dark and moody. But I do want something can looks less cartoonish.

[*Jess♥]

i don't know, I can't help but feel that you are voicing gripes about things that are actually staples of the genre.

I don't think that is what this thread is about really.

I mean, stating an attack name before performing it, that's something that is generally accepted about this genre. it's something that would basically destroy the genre if it was missing.

I really think those kinds of things would be better for a personal rant blog or something because i can only see many kamen rider or sentai fans feeling a little insulted by those kinds of comments.

to be totally clear about where we're coming from you need to really look at what is generally accepted as good kamen rider. so look at a series like kamen rider agito or moving along to faiz or blade. I'm not sure if you have seen that, if you have then that's really the sort of perspective required in order to get the right mood for this discussion.

we're not slating sentai or kamen rider here. we like sentai and kamen rider as they are. we are talking about how recent series have had weaknesses within the genre.

perhaps your ideas would be more suited to the thread about "what would you like to see in sentai" ?

[*V Guyver]

maybe. But in my eyes, they are what these franchises can be changed to correct the change. They aren't necessarily changes that have to be made, but they are meant to illustrate a point. These franchises have yet to try to reach older fans.

[durendal]

I think I understand where V Guyver is coming from. It is to say that there is a very wide disparity of what is actually being done in the show and how it should be done in reality. I do agree on some points that if the situations of the sentai or riders were put into reality, what they are currently doing will not be effective in any way to defeat the enemy. But of course, we are talking about the genre and its not in any way relevant to how it would work in reality. What I see as a problem would be the sterotypical typecast of the hero that makes them so predictable. The term "Grim and Gritty" is already a stereotype that is present in every media, it is used so much that every character that has such a personality would be labeled as a clone of its predecessor.

I was thinking that if they try to reboot the genre, much like how Christopher Nolan rebooted the Batman franchise, perhaps there might be some improvement with the genre. I mean, they could try an experiment with it and see how it goes. You have to admit, adopting the genre into a more realistic setting is kinda interesting.

[*Jess♥]

to me, i think that is more like the films. 'the first' and 'the next' certainly seemed far more realistic in style.

I don't mind that so much, since it is separate from the series i enjoy and have come to expect certain things from it.

but if they were to wipe the slate clean and then restart kamen rider as something that does not fulfil the same demographic, it would be akin to committing suicide.

why not just simply look at other shows that already fulfil different demographic?

for example, skull man. or garo. or lion maru g. we could name plenty more.

besides, they have practically done that very thing. they have rebooted the franchise with kamen rider W. they seem to be fitting much the same mould as den-o mixed with dcd in my view, so i'm happy. also, they have not really had much posturing in kamen rider of late. the shouting of the attacks, is now performed by the belt and not the hero. the posing before henshin also seems to be vastly reduced in time.