Shos consciousness and the Guyver forms

[Aether]

i have used the below quote from here http://www.japan-legend.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1425

as it sparked this thought for a topic...

Am I the only one that doesn't like the Guyver Exceed idea? I have to say the super giant Guyver is not the best idea I've ever seen. Khan absorbed all those zoanoids, but where did all that mass for the Guyver come from? If it goes this far(after all this is the guyver's third form) what next?

I never thought the exceed idea wouldnt go down too well with other people, i like the idea of a 52metre Guyver ( going back to an earlier discussion in the science lab that means a 52 m Sho!) ....

i think the mass used to create the exceed would have just been an increased energy intake ( converted to mass) from the boost dimension right?? so theoretically depending on the energy potential of the boost dimension we could end up with a Galactus sized Guyver - Guyver C.E.R.G - Convienient Exceedingly Ridiculoulsy Ginormous where he grows big enough to protect the entire Earth ( hope youre reading Takaya san!! hint hint) .

i dont know if this has been discussed before and i cant recall it being answered in the Manga ( im sure some one will correct me if it has) but i wondered if others think that the Gigantic and XD already exsisted and Sho just called them or if he made them - i personally think he made them as i think it shows Sho's ongoing maturity and that he has mastered his symbiosis with the unit G, i think his consciousness is creating and manipulating the Guyver to what he needs to survive!! making full use of its potential... it seems the strength he gained from Hayami's death has pushed him over the edge to this full intergration... the Gigantic came about because he had been obliterated and cacked his pants after meeting Alky and created the gigantic, but he seized the moment and created the XD instantly to save Tokyo,himself and Aptom (and the newsguys) they would all have deffinatley been deaded if the XD hadnt been created. i liked the development i think it woked better than a miracle happening that would have allowed everyone to survive.... must be nice to have a 52 meter bio weapon at your disposal!

[*V Guyver]

I'm beginning to understand the real reason why the Creators feared humanity. It's not such more of the raw power that the Guyver produced nor the fact they couldn't control it. No, it's more likely because of people like Sho. Sho so far has show the ability to expand on the guyvers original abilities and create things. The fact the Creators spent billions of years creating biological weapons and didn't really seem thorough enough in just fixing the current models instead of restarting from scratch shows a lack of imagination. In retrospect, I think Sho created what the Creators feared, a much more deadly from of the Guyver that they couldn't match and counter, and made worse by the possibility of a zoanoid or zoalord getting their hands on one too. So there is very little right now stopping show from creating something bigger and better. For all we know, he may end up creating a new form of the basic Guyver unit while in the cocoon someday.

[Larz Zahn]

somes times i have wondered if the gigantic armor was actually another creater tool. the guyvers act as their ship keys and their enviromental suits. what if they needed to go into a enviroment that the normal guyvers couldnt handle? they would have a tougher envirosuit to go there instead. after all the gigantic wouldnt have any weapons, its only when bonded to a human does it get scary. perhaps that is what the gigantus was, and when they had their army created it wasnt needed anymore.

so when sho wished for more power, the Relic used the rest of its power to make a boosted armor booster. and perhaps sho's conscience directed the ship to modify it even more so, making it more dangerous than a simple boosted Guyver bonded to a human.

[Aether]

I agree with V Guyver in that the Creators surely realised it wasnt just the Guyvers power that was destructive it was the 'guyver' nature of the human host aswell....

Larz zhan i like the phrase ' boosted armor booster' its more descriptive than 'cocoon' .

i think the cocoon was just a shell for Sho to regenerate in aswell as the creation of the Gigantic, i dont think the cocoon was instrumental in creating the Gigantic itself, it was just a safe protected place for sho to be built back cell by cell and also the new Gigantic weapon to evolve and so eventually the Gigantic popped out when the process was finished... didnt sho ask the Relic to do whatever it did anyway, so really it was Shos idea, his will.....( if i had time id go and read the volumes that mention all this and try n get a more precise idea!)

Maybe if we knew what the Creators actual bodies were we could have a better idea of what the Guyver looked like with them in it, if the unit G did already have the gigantic at its disposal then it would only make them bigger and maybe relatively stronger but not to the human interaction level of course. if it did have size changing capabilities before it would only have served as a temporary tool to use for exploration...i doubt the Creators would want to inhabit a world where their true relative size was that of ' vertically challenged people' - there would be no point.

come to think of it im not sure that the cocoon appears eveytime its boosted, does it? as the past couple of times the armour has just appeared. if it does always appear then possibly its because the cocoon thought form is assosciated with the Gigantic and thats why it is still housed inside it when it comes from the boost dimension.

maybe it could be used as v Guyver hinted as a kind of generation chamber....

but if we look at the exceed its not the case it just kind of grew ( we wernt really shown were we?) but if you notice the orbs ( cant remember proper name) on the Gigantics shoulders, forearms and legs at the time of the transformation ( and the forming of the mini blackhole) they were bulging in size which i think probably indicates an influx of massive amounts of energy (from the boost dimension) thus increasing the energy, cell production and therefore mass and internal energy to grow to the magnificent XD/ Exceed!!!!!

Edited August 5, 2008 by Eether

[*V Guyver]

they were absorbing energy. I just have no clue as to hoe that energy expanded his form. Also have to wonder, does Sho himself grow with the suite? Or is it just the gigantic itself with a normal size Sho inside it somewhere?

[Larz Zahn]

i would assume it was energy matter conversion.

you poor tons of energy into the guyver, the Guyver converts that energy into mass and hince grows.

i actually think that shos will made the gigantus coccoon and the gigantic armor. i just threw that out there as a alternate theory.

does sho actually grow.... well... if the Guyver and the host merges into one being when the hosts boosts... then i would have to say that both Guyver and host grows together to merge with the gigantic armor. and thru the advanced alien tech of the Guyver then i believe sho would grow as well when he goes exceed... but the human portion of hte Guyver body would be seriously contoured and... deformed from its regular normal form. that is if you could actually see the human body after its boosted by the guyver. hahaha!

[*zeo]

As I see it the Host and Unit are basically hybridized into a single new life form, it's why the Guyver remains proportional to the host for example.

Ever seen someone wearing full body armor and noticed how proportions ratios change the thicker the suite? Like Ironman had stubby fingers, etc. Distance between joints, etc have to increase with size/mass increase or mobility gets effected for example as there is no room for the excess mass unless it's properly layed out.

For the normal Guyver the host is instantly remodeled, non-essential organs are regressed while others are either replaced or augmented to be superior than original. The organism merges with the bones and muscles and infuses them with energy, assumably to make them stronger, but it also increases cellular growth/mass, which basically means the bones get denser and the mucle mass increases... meaning the unit instantly makes the host peak condition regardless of host original state.

So saying the host remains the same as the Guyver is like saying that Banner is the same as the Hulk.

That said, there is a difference between host in terms of leverage and mass. But like competing athletes the differences aren't great and thus a fight between any two Guyvers would get very intense before a clear winner comes out on top. And like any weapon it depends how it is used to how effective it is. . . The Female Guyver may indeed be faster and have less overall physical strength but in terms of fighting power that may balance out as the greater speed also means more momentum in her punches and kicks. So it may even out...

For the Gigantic it appears the merger is similar to the host unit, so the host gets further modified. The structure of the Gigantic is also suggested to be a result of infused energy, the loss of which is probably why the Gigantic auto deactivates when it uses up too much energy. So in addition to rapid mass increase by turning energy directly into mass for insanely fast cellular growth the cellular structure of the Gigantic appears to also be almost balloon like as it fills up with energy.

It can at least be noted that while growing into the Exceed the Gigantic energy amps did balloon a bit as they filled up with energy from the continuous energy siphon...

The significant percentage of the Gigantic being raw contained energy can be noted by the fact the Exceed isn't as heavy as a 52 meter tall Gigantic should be, just compare to how heavy Godzilla is and the Exceed is pretty damn light in comparison... The main interesting thing is the CM also grew, so that suggests the CM isn't just an artificial object but may be a living device as well.

The Female Guyver is an artificial unit however, so we don't know yet if she rates as a full fledged Guyver yet... But the differences in her appearance is most probably due to the fact that as a female her body proportions are different to a males. The smashers for example may be the same size but the smaller torso just makes them stand out more. We also have to take into consideration that the unit works off the host characteristics, so the physical shape could be cosmetic representation of the host overall body type.

But suffice it to say there are a lot of gaps in our information, so we may have to wait for additional information to be provided before we can be more sure of any conclusion.

[Larz Zahn]

i really like the idea that the cm is an organic metal... but the only flaw there is if it was organic... it should be able to repair itself to some degree...

to me anyhow.

[*zeo]

A reasonable question... to which I counter can your bones repair themselves without help?

Like puting them back in the right place, keeping the limb immobile, drinking lots of milk, etc... or can your brain repair itself from brain damage?

Simply being organic just means the potential for repair is there but the more complex the organism the harder it is to repair.

[*Jess♥]

teh brain can repair itself from brain damage, can't it?

and bones do mend themselves even without a cast or splint or whatever? teh alignment of the bone and the cast simply make it repair itself in a straight line.

i mean.. if you leave it, it will mend but it will be a very messy mend. right?

isn';t it the same as doing neat stitches? without neat stitches, your wound will still heal, it wil simply create an ugly scar.

[Aether]

I agree with everything Zeo said in his first post i think we discussed some of this in the science lab before ( the extent of the interaction with and effect on the host, and the whole Sho growing with the suit issue- because for that time sho IS the suit)...

not sure you can say how heavy the XD SHOULD be? but i get your point ( it was 4000 tonnes lighter than Draglord!!)

As for the Control Medal being organic i dont think it would need to be 'Organic' to grow in size, more energy can equal more mass it just depends how the energy is used. The suit/ Guyver organism is obviously capable of converting the extra energy into more organic matter to grow larger, and the medal is a part of the suit. at a fundamental level EVERYTHING is energy, thus alive, we dont know if the medal is metal but even if it was metal its still 'alive' at some level of exsistence so has the capability to grow. even ash has energy making it exsist (atoms etc.) even though the ready available convertable energy has been burnt away its still in a sense 'alive'...

I think bones and brains etc will try to heal themselves whatever happens, as thats what they are doing continuosly anyway...we get a new body something like every 6 months or something( cant remember exact timescale) thats because every cell in our body is constantly dieing and being replaced or regrown with the energy that we intake through oxygen and food....

thus I think that a damaged control medal has the POTENTIAL to be restored to its former glory, maybe it would take a very long time to do so if it was 'organic' and was regenerating itself. it obviously doesnt repair the same as the organic part of the suit which regenerates in the boost dimension relatively quick.... BUT if it wasnt truly 'organic' i think it would ( kind of steering back to the original topic) come back to the interaction and consciousness of the host with the medal and suit....Guyver 2s medal may have had the potential to have been repaired but Lisker didnt wear it for long and had no real connection with the suit as sho does with G1 now.... i think if Sho's medal was damaged he could possibly focus the boost dimension energy to regenerate the medal as long as he stayed in the suit or possibly the cocoon????

Edited August 6, 2008 by Eether

[Larz Zahn]

there is always teh small chance that the portion of liskers cm that was damaged was the portion that allowed him to become that.... connected. although i dont know if i would go that route. he was more at ease in the armor than sho, true he had more training and combat experience, but he still seemed more... at ease.

i just thought of somehting.... the Guyver has the ability to heal... the control medal is not an actual part of the Guyver organism. it is in fact the interface from host to guyver... maybe it cant regen?

...

but how would it grow then.

...

another idea was the portion of liskers medal damaged was the part that would tell the Guyver to repair it. if the control medal is organic then perhaps the Guyver can actually merge with it too hince its organic, and there for giving it some healing ability?

[*zeo]

teh brain can repair itself from brain damage, can't it?

and bones do mend themselves even without a cast or splint or whatever? teh alignment of the bone and the cast simply make it repair itself in a straight line.

i mean.. if you leave it, it will mend but it will be a very messy mend. right?

isn';t it the same as doing neat stitches? without neat stitches, your wound will still heal, it wil simply create an ugly scar.

Brains can rewire themselves and heal to an extent but a lobotomized brain stays lobotomized!

The bone may heal but they will never be the same without help. If the bones aren't put back into the right place and given the Resources and time to mend properly then they will mend the wrong way and the person will be crippled.

See the difference?

Just having the capacity to regenerate doesn't mean an organism can necessarily fix itself and the more complex it is the harder it gets to fix itself. And it doesn't get much more complex than a CM.

[*Jess♥]

or perhaps teh CM is simply that basic. the dual CM of the relic/gigantic is very advanced and showed itself capable of remodellng itself in an instant.

from what we saw of Guyver 2 it seems teh normal CM cannot repair itself easily if at all.

so when gigantic turned into XD, it seems to me that the dual CM remodelled the normal CM portion.

so I think a normal CM would not repair itself but could be repaired if come into contact with a relic.

[Aether]

or perhaps teh CM is simply that basic. the dual CM of the relic/gigantic is very advanced and showed itself capable of remodellng itself in an instant.

from what we saw of Guyver 2 it seems teh normal CM cannot repair itself easily if at all.

so when gigantic turned into XD, it seems to me that the dual CM remodelled the normal CM portion.

so I think a normal CM would not repair itself but could be repaired if come into contact with a relic.

I think you might have a point Ryuki, when the XD was formed the combined control medal grew,so that shows an interaction between the two if the Relic medal made the control medal grow in size.

they must be made of the same material so resonate with eachother easily so it could be possible for the Relic medal to encourage regrowth of the control medal if damaged....

[*Jess♥]

incase anyone was wondering, I split some posts out into it's own topic.

[Aether]

have a theory, the answers to these questions would help but ive had a go anyway...

1.when the gigantic forms does the Relic medal just fit around the original, or does the original grow???

and 2.is the Armour a part of the organism or another function to control/ protect it??

now i think there are 2 options of how the XD actually resized....

my theory anyway....

1.im thinking there may be a cross over relay effect of interaction between Sho,the Control medal, the Relic medal, the chrysalis, the Boost dimension and the organism for everything to have resized so much for the XD.....

so for the gigantic it would go: Sho/makashima thinks Gigantic, the control medal communicates with the Relic Medal and instucts the Chrsalysis to Boost into our dimension the chrysalis then ejects the Gigantic Armour the control medals fit together instruct the organism to rebioboost the host to fit the armour and they combine...

and for the XD it would maybe go:Sho thinks need more mass/power, The Gigantic dual medal communicates with the Chrysalis which then remodels the Gigantic Armour to grow with power from the boost dimension so the new XD armour grows, the control medal and Relic medal resonate with eachother deciding to grow to contain the organism,maintain the host and fit the new armour, and the Dual medal then indicates another bioboost is needed for the host to fit into the XD armour, put em all together and you get the XD...

OR

2. The Gigantic literally just sucked energy form the boost dimension to every cell of the Guyver and it grew, and the control medals just expanded to fit the new XD...theres no other way it could feasably happen..is there!!!??!!???

WHAT D Y RECKON???

[Guest Takara Korteis]

I've come to think of the Control Medallion as more of a crystaline computer matrix, thus because of it's crystal construction could be repaired, this process just needing a deal of time to complete. Probably why the Advents had the removers right with the units. If a CM was damaged the unit could be removed and replaced while the CM was being fixed.

Thought I'd throw in my two cents on the CM matter.

[Larz Zahn]

is the crystal ring the only working part of the whole CM? i originally thought the entire control medal played its own seperate role in the Guyver control system, but after a while im wondering if the metal portions are just a protective sheild designed only to protect the crystal from any and all things, with the crystal controling the organism and using the guyvers weapons as a.... perimeter defense?

another thing is, do the Creators always have the guyvers equipped? or do they use them to control the ship while in transport, and doing experiments, and when they're done, they use the remover to take off the suit, and put it back in its... locker? it would explain why there were three in the relics point relic.

im for the whole growing thru matter energy conversion. the nav spheres from a advent ship are probably about.. o i'd say meter in diameter.. estimated. could be a little more... it wasnt as wide as a person was tall. but the XD control medal, the inner dome part, was wider/taller than aptom. so it would have to grow to be that big.

um... i cant tell a differnce between your two theories, the end result is the same, but the first one just explains why? sorry i get confused easily. hehe. my teachers just loved me in school... when i didnt sleep.

[*V Guyver]

the center of the control medal probably has an organic center. One that has nerves interfacing with the organism, and it's other nerves extend into the host. My theory is that the trauma from the explosion damaged the organism's interface with the control medal before it combined with lisker. Unlike sho who's survived lots of impacts and damage with his control medal, the Guyver unit of lisker wasn't reinforced because it didn't bond with a human before the damage... or am I just repeating obvious theories?

[Aether]

the center of the control medal probably has an organic center. One that has nerves interfacing with the organism, and it's other nerves extend into the host. My theory is that the trauma from the explosion damaged the organism's interface with the control medal before it combined with lisker. Unlike sho who's survived lots of impacts and damage with his control medal, the Guyver unit of lisker wasn't reinforced because it didn't bond with a human before the damage... or am I just repeating obvious theories?

i like the idea theres an organic centre to the medal, which suggests there could be the consciousness of the entire organism there??????????? I think you are exactly right .

this helps re-enforce my thinking that if the unit 1 control medal was damaged it could regenerate either with time or with the help of Sho's consciousness or a combination of both... the bond that Sho has now with the Unit is somewhat unbreakable because 1. there interface was unhindered by unit 2's problem and 2. because over time Sho has mastered the interface between them.

V Guyver i applaud your theory!!!!!! and if you are repeating obvious theories i give myself a smack in the face for not realizing them!

um... i cant tell a differnce between your two theories, the end result is the same, but the first one just explains why? sorry i get confused easily. hehe. my teachers just loved me in school... when i didnt sleep.

Larz ive answered you here; http://www.japan-legend.com/forum/index.ph...amp;#entry16653

Edited August 14, 2008 by Eether

[*Jess♥]

we came up with a theory on how the control medal works.

the center dome of teh CM is an interface with the hosts brain and acts as a storage. the rings act as computational power and transmitter. the outer ring acts as pacifier and controller of the bio-booster organism.

we believed that the ring is made out of the same or similar crystal as a zoacrystal and is capable of transmitting and recieving via a subspace network.

the damage to riskers control medal showed problems with control of teh organism, but did not show any problems with his own genetic makeup or memories.

so this further supports that theory.

if the central dome contains data, that would explain why sho no longer gets visions of teh past when equipping the gigantic. the central dome of teh navigaton spheres is gone and is replaced by the guyer CM when he equips the gigantic.

only the outer ring remaiins and that must then control the organism that makes up the gigantic armour.

[Enzyme-eternal]

we believed that the ring is made out of the same or similar crystal as a zoacrystal and is capable of transmitting and recieving via a subspace network.

It makes sense that the Creators would use the pre-existing crystal structure of the Control Metal to make a weaponised version (Zoacrystals) for their Zoalord.

I believe the metal parts of the Control metal aren’t actually inert metal like steel or iron but rather an organic structure that seems like metal, like coral reefs aren’t actually rock.

I think the nerve tendrils that attach to the host’s brain are connected to an organic element in the center of the Control Metal that has a complete copy of the host’s DNA, which is how the Control Metal regenerated Sho.

As for the Control Metal repairing itself, I think that it would tale a considerably longer amount of time then Lisker had bad the Guyver before being destroyed. After all the Control Metal is the only vital part of a Guyver so it stands to reason that it can repair itself it just can’t do it at a fast rate. Perhaps the Control Metal can only repair itself at the rate of it’s host’s normal healing rate, like the Control Metal regenerates every other part of the Guyver (and host) and the host repairs the Control Metal.

not sure you can say how heavy the XD SHOULD be? but i get your point ( it was 4000 tonnes lighter than Draglord!!)

Well remember that Sho was trying to minimize the damage to the area so he could have been using his gravity orb to lower the Gigantic’s weight to stop himself from crushing the building he was standing on or leave massive footprint everywhere.

As for the Gigantic’s mass, well bare in mind that the Guyver is an organic creature and therefore its mass is extremely mutable. Just look at humans, our mass changes constantly through the process of aging, gaining mass as we grow up and loosing mass as we grow old (yeah you shrink when you get old). Then there’s gain and loosing weight through making and burning fat cells. So really the Gigantic is just using it’s power generators to gain the necessary energy to produce such a lager cell production in such a short time and when it shrinks back down it’s just re-metabolizing the additional cell structure. If you think of it that way it isn’t really such a far fetched idea.

The last point I’d like to make is that the Gigantic was a result of Sho’s Control Metal and the Control Metal of the Relic fusing and the Guyver rebuilding it’s host. The fact that the two Control Metals had fused meant that the Guyver’s AI could for fill Sho’s last thought before he died (again) to have the power to defeat Arkenthel because it had access to the Relic’s design stored in it’s Control Metal. Using these designs it created the cocoon and configured the Gigantic armor, so it was actually the Guyver itself (with the necessary desire of it’s host) that made the Gigantic.

[Astramentous]

Most likely the Control Metal is not organic. It almost certainly has organic components to interact with the bio-boost organism, and likely takes a cell sample of the host to re-grow their body, but I doubt it's actually based in organic structures. Whether or not the control metal was made with organic tools is another matter, of course, but the basic metal is probably made of inorganic materials and is not a living substance.

That being said, some really sophisticated machines can repair themselves to a limited degree, so it's possible the control metal could have done so given time - but I'd guess not. The Control Metal is such a dangerous thing to have malfunction, it'd be better to separate it from the host entirely and then repair it and test it in a laboratory. In an emergency, perhaps an emergency system was in place to perform temporary repairs, but such would probably not be up to par.

However, this doesn't mean Sho can't repair his CM. The Gigantic's control metal fits over the Guyver's - it may have the capacity to repair his control metal, and even may keep a copy of his and Agito's minds just in case.

Also, I have a question with Guyver IIs control metal - when was it damaged? Was it really just that little bomb that damaged it, or was it something before that, perhaps from the creators ship? Did we ever get a good picture of all three units with undamaged Control Metals?