2.5 million years...

[McAvoy]

Ok, 2.5 million years a long time, we all know that. But modern humans are theorized to be only around for 40,000 to 100,000 years. In fact for a time we shared the planet with Neanderthal, who could be considered our equals (or near equals).

So if the Creators left 2.5 million years ago, and they perfected the modern human at that timeframe, wouldn't have we evolved during that time? The only theory I have is that we are second generation humans. Whereas, Guyver 0, Faye, Alkanphel, Zeugma, and all those from that timeframe are First generation. That the Creators accelerated the process, and then once they left with very little first generation humans left, natural evolution took over.

Ideas?

[*zeo]

Well the actual time line for modern homo sapiens goes back further than 100,000 years. The oldest fossil record from Africa is about 130,000 years old. Many put our actual origins at around 200,000 years ago, with 250,000 being the present extreme possibility. There is even evidence for modern humans in the Near East sometime before 90,000 years ago.

That said though, there is nothing to say evolution is either a continuous non-stop process or that it has to happen at a given rate.

Army ants for example have remained virtually unchanged for about 100 million years.

Orchids have been around for about 84 million years.

Prehistoric species of fish have been discovered in isolated caves, identical to the way they were in ancient times.

It all breaks down to how well a given species is adapted to their ecological nitch. The more they have to adapt the more they will eventually evolve... Evolution can even go in reverse if the needs of adaptions require it for a species to survive.

Human's though don't need to physically adapt, since we can use our brains to adapt to changing conditions. Our adaptations have been mainly mental ones...

The two biggest changes to human society has coincided with genes that effect the brain for example. But physically there has been little change through the course of human history. . . Most of which was regional adaptations to the climate and conditions of a given region.

So even though it is unlikely modern humans have been around longer than 250,000 years, it doesn't mean it isn't possible that we could be a very old race after all...

About 75,000 years ago for example a caldera erupted and effected the whole planet so badly that the human race was almost wiped out. We were down to under 10,000 total. Some even put it down to about 2000 total, and from them all modern humans came from.

Limiting a species gene pool of course limits genetic diversity and the potential to evolve. So if such events were fairly common then it could easily limit how much we could have evolved, even over millions of years...

Multiple evolutions of humans is an alternative explanation, the great number of similar species like chimps and apes for example means humans could have evolved more than once...

Neanderthals for example go back 350-500 thousand years ago, meaning we are a parallel evolved species that co-existed with them to about 30,000 years ago. Though some evidence suggests they were still around up to 24,000 years ago.

And another possible co-evolved species, though much controversy still surrounds them... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

[Aranor]

Another thing to factor in is the ignorance of barbarians. For isntance the destruction of the library of alexadria. Check out ancient discoveries from the history channel. Knowledge has come very close to what we now have and in some ways is thought to have surpassed our present state. For instance during that time they showed designs for a brass ball which was filled with water, when placed over a fire the steam would erupt out of a tube spinning the ball. Place a couple gears on that an you have a steam engine.

The actions of those whom either don't understand of simply wish to destroy has time and time again brought societies down. Hmm what would this world be like had Hitler succeeded? Not a pleaant thought.

[McAvoy]

The point I was making is that in WG it seems modern life was made 2.5 million years ago and in the real world, 2.5 million years ago, the evolution of the human race at that point was nothing more than chimps.

Obviously, WG ancient humans are modern humans more or less. No one in the stories has commented how big is Guyver 0's eye brow ridge or something.

[*zeo]

Guyver0 in the WG universe is part Creator and the Creators in the WG Universe had given themselves some human characteristics to better utilize the Unit Bio-Boost as part of the Warrior Project. So he is a bit more advance than the other ancient humans. Faye is also special...

Archanfel is probably what they considered a perfect human form, since he was their masterpiece... While Zeugma and Kron are both Zoalords created by the Creators, so are similar to Archanfel even though they were born as normal humans.

Though true the original host of Guyver0 appeared much like a modern human, just with a lot of hair since he probably never shaved.

The Time Line of the Manga though is in dispute... though at least one account places the Asteroid incident at 10 million years ago, Barcus has stated Archanfel has slept for 10's of thousand of years. . . Assuming this was sleep from the time of the Asteroid then it would seem to dispute the previously mentioned 10 million years by Agito. However Silha island was formed by tectonic plate drift, which would take millions of years. . . So I'm siding with Agito on that one, others have expressed different opinions though.

For the WG fan fic we had the Creators come back AFTER the Asteroid incident and start the Warrior Project, which is why in the WG fan fic the Creators have only been gone for 2.5 million years, because they spent over 7 million years on the Warrior Project before the Time War event forced them to leave.

[McAvoy]

Ok, so Alkanphel is 10 million years old, not 2.6 millions.

But 10 million years, is still a long time. In reality, humans havee existed in a fraction of that time. 10 millions years ago, you wouldn't tell which species would branch off to evolve into humans.

So it brings us down to are the modern humans (now) second generation humans evolved naturally, or did the Creators just locked our evolution into place.

Of course the minimum time for the Creators to have left is however long it takes for Earth to recover some huge asteroid hit. The asteroid hit that hit Earth is very large, much larger than the one that caused the extinction of the Dinosaurs.

[*zeo]

A second evolution is possible but evolution doesn't follow a set clock, sometimes evolution of a given species can even take million year breaks. It all depends on how well adapted a species is and whether the ecosystem puts any pressure on them to adapt.

Since Darwin first proposed evolution our understanding of it has greatly improved, simple natural selection or survival of the fittest is not the rule or even real basis for evolution.

Rather evolution follows the law of conservation of energy and is in balance with the ecosystem. Genetically there is a level of continuous variation and mutations but these changes don't necessarily take over unless they provide an improved adaptation... Eventually these adaptions can accumulate into a new species but this takes a very long time and only really happen if a species if forced to adapt.

Switching from water breathing to air breathing for example uses the same genes, just configured differently. Showing how conservative evolution really is. The discovery that our genome was smaller than thought was one of the revelations that showed just how conservative evolution is and what is trully possible without ever having to increase the size of a genome.

Our own evolution for example appears to have been spurred by drought that caused deforestation that forced our primate ancestors to learn to walk upright to more efficiently travel over wide open spaces. We evolved the ability to sweat and the cardiovascular system needed to run marathon distances. Meaning our early hunter/gathering ancestors simply outran most prey as no other species can keep on running for as long as we can.

Add limited resources and an increasing range of prey species meant there was pressure to increase intelligence, the brain takes a lot of resources to support. So is something that requires both a large intake of food energy and cost benefit for a given organism to justify.

So consdering how hard it was for us to evolve in the first place it would take similar stresses to cause us to evolve even further, but for a species whose primary adaption is intelligence it should be considered that until modern times our intelligence hasn't really faced anything it needed to further adapt to.

Also the occassional near extinction events would reduce genetic variation that would help bring about the accumulation of mutations necessary for evolution.

Meaning it's entirely possible for humans to have remained the same for millions of years, it all depends how well we survived and whether the conditions for further evolution was sufficient to cause it.

[McAvoy]

It is possible. Especially when you look at fossils of modern humans that are 100,000 years old. Scientists once thought evolution is ongoing, and going by that logic, today's human species should be different from the 100,000 year old fossil. Aside from overall size, modern humans haven't changed much if at all.

Another possible theory is that the Creators accelerated the original process, knwoing full well probably through simulations of what will evolve and chose the human race. Perfected them into zoanoids, and then into Alkanphel. Left alone, evolution takes it's place back.

Officially, we only see the host of Guyver 0 and Alkanphel up close. Both are very different from each other in their human forms.

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

In addition, our recorded history is a mere blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. Evolution doesn't stop exactly. Ever. It always makes changes, it might be minute like in the army ants, or sharks, or it could make massive changes, like our own evolutionary line. However, there is a notable 'jump' in the frames based on when Earth has had large massive extinctions, while leaving a worldwide population that's decimated.

-- There was a collision with a meteor at the Jurassic and Triassic transitioning period, dating about 200 Million years ago (MYA). It killed about a fifth of all life, mostly marine, and non-dinosaur, as well as the last of the giant amphibians. This was the last collision until their extinction approximately 65 MYA.

-- At 251 MYA, there was another mass extinction, this time nearly all life in the marine families ( something like 95-96%), as well as about 70% or so of the land species. This moved the Earth into the age of the dinosaurs, lasting until 65 MYA.

-- The extinction involving the dinosaurs wipe out about half of the land life, mostly the large reptiles we know as dinosaurs, and about a third of all sea life became extinct. This transitioned into another period, one that would lead to the rise of mammals and avians, which would ultimately lead to us.

----

In regards to the Library of Alexandria, yes, a lot has been lost. We've only just begun to regain some of that knowledge. The books and art, however, are forever lost to us. It has been rumored that Homer, the poet who wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey, had written a number of epics that were lost. It is also rumored that oil and gas deposits had all been mapped on the Earth's surface. As well as coal, gold, silver, copper, and iron deposits, which we now find essential. The Library was massive, and held any and all conceivable knowledge that could be gotten at the time. Instead of searching for contraband, they searched for knowledge. It was a library, and research center. It is unknown when precisely when the library was destroyed, but it did happen during the Roman Empire period, and it does seem to result in the dark ages that would last for so long.

As for the possiblity for being a second generation human, I find that implausable if not highly unlikely, simply for the fact that even though we do not have some of the features present like those in say, Alkanphel, those features that we do not have would have likely been phased out one at a time, regardless of any meteoric collisions or other catastrophes. For instance, a prolonged famine would only cause a genetic line's body systems to become much more efficient than they all ready were at energy usage and consumption. And while there may be nothing apparant to tax one's brain doesn't mean there wasn't. At any rate, if evolution held true, and features were bred out one or two at a time, then it is far more likely we're looking at least fifth generation humans, at least to me.

[*zeo]

Officially...Manga wise, we basically got two time frames to consider, the earlier stated time that the Creators left was 20 million years ago. This coincides with when the Arctic started to ice up (there was no polar caps then). The other time frame comes when Barcus was describing Silha island and stated Archanfel had been sleeping there for 10th's of thousands of years.

But Silha island was formed by continental drift, so I believe the 20 Million Year mark.

Another interesting fan note, Silha island was named after the island mentioned in Mandevilles Journals of the far east. Time frame is during explorer period with notable names like Marco Polo, etc.

The island of Silha was 800 miles around and had the mountain upon which Adam and Eve wept for the loss of their son Able when Cain killed him. Guess Takaya liked the kicked out of Eden theme of the island and used it for Archanfel's island. He even mentions Mandeville in both the Manga and VDF.

Btw, according to the VDF the creators made fairies for espionage

[McAvoy]

Still doesn't bring up the fact that an advanced lifeform such as us hasn't changed much since Guyver 0's time whether it is 2.5 or 20 million years ago.

Keep in mind that Alkanphel and the host of Guyver 0 are different, Guyver 0 looking more like a primitive human and Alkanphel looking like an elf.

[*zeo]

Could be that they were one of the earlier precursors to us, like the Neanderthals. Similar but not exactly us, just bred for violence capacity and us more creative version evolved later and developed civilization.

Don't think the Creators wanted philosophers and such for their army. So we may be the watered down and more well rounded version, but since the Guyver effect is integral part of life on this planet we still retain the ability to go Guyver.

Can't really compare Archanfel though, he was born a Zoalord.

[McAvoy]

Well that might explain the manga version. But what about the WG.com versions? Guyver 0 is part creator so he can be excused. But we have the host for Primitive Guyver and Faye. They're from that timeframe and for the most part they're human just like us.

Even our closer precusors like the Neanderthals were different enough to see a difference. Hell, it is theorized that they had bigger brains than us. The reason why they died out was because they could have been more eco-friendly than us.

Then again, Faye and her people could have been gentically engineered to while similar to us, be more agressive and warrior-like.

[*zeo]

Well it turns out a clarification in the Manga makes it pretty official now that the Creators left Earth 20,000 years ago.

The 20 Million was a mistype...

But there is a possible solution for the WG, turns out the land Silha was originally part of was an island too... Possibly the source for the Eden mythology.

The name Silha is actually taken from a popular fictional book written over 500 years ago by an Author names Sir John Mandeville. The book is referenced in such works as the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, etc. Though many researchers believe the author used an alias and drew for his source material the real life experiences of explorers like Marco Polo, etc.

In the book the Island of Silha was where Adam and Eve went to after being kicked out of Eden and wept near the mountain when their son Able died, where a lake is now. The island was populated by many weird Creatures...

During the Scene that Barcus confides in Shin and Prug'stall about the island, Shin refers to the Book.

The circumference of 800 miles is the exact same as the Book and its situation being in the Atlantic is also mirrored.

Side interesting notes is the use of a phrase that starts off with Mirabilis (Imakarums last name) and a certain Khan. Not to mention other islands like Waferdanos. So it seems we've found a source book for many of the ideas Takaya used.

Anyway, the solution it presents is that humans remained on the island with Archanfel and worshiped him and he had resources to the damaged Relic he was sleeping in. So he simply could have helped humanity survive the ice age by putting most of them into hibernation and then releasing them over a million years later as the planet got more live-able.

Though this solution isn't needed for Faye, she's special...

Alternatively, PG could have done something to his unit to update himself. After all he has had millions of years to learn about Creator technology and his CM would give him direct access to the knowledge contained in the Relics. While Barcus has only been around for 400 years and his telepathy has only given him limited access to the Creator knowledge stored in the Arizona Relic CM's. Yet that was enough to give Chronos their zoaforming technology.

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

See, that makes a whole world of difference.

Granted, Twenty Thousand years ago, we were little more than cave dwellers who could paint and hunt, but at least we're not still climbing trees in Africa, or wherever. Oh yes, and let's not forget darts.

Some 20k years ago is also when we first started domesticating the canis lupus into canis familiaris, and started developing cultures that would evolve over time, or at least according to history. At that point it was still the stone age. Little more than barbarians, we were.

[Rivyn]

well as far as human evolution goes, there are people that believe that throughout earths life, there's been the possible chance that human OR human like life forms have evolved and flourished and then disappeared in extinction level events, such as meteors slamming into the earth or naturally dieing out or even advancing to the point of becoming space flight capable.

I dont know how much stock to put into these ideas. As far as I'm concerned they make for some interesting story ideas at least.

As for Alkanphel's age....I thought he was suppose to have been around when the dinosaurs were around and that the creators actually created dinosaurs as part of the experiments? I could be wrong, I admit I'm not that well versed in the Guyver manga, I was under the impression though that Alkanphel was over 65 millions years old

[*zeo]

Nope, the Manga pretty much follows known history. It just explains everything as saying the Creators were responsible for guiding how life evolved and causing the mass extinctions, like trimming a banzai tree, as they ended certain evolutionary patterns in favor of others until they finally wound up with humans.

The dinosaurs were already extinct and fossils by the Time Archanfel was created, which was after the Creators had already created humans. The T-Rex shown in the Manga was actually a type of Hyper Zoanoid the Creators whipped up to test against Guyver Zero.

And recent clarifications on the Manga translations has confirmed the time frame of when the Creators left at about 20,000 years ago. So Archanfel is only about 20,000 years old.

It's just too late to change the time line in the WG fan fiction, so an alternative explanation of dealing with the ice age and skipping millions of years will be used.

Back to evolution, it is intriguing that intelligence may be an evolutionary certainty given time and opportunity. One such analysis looked at the Raptors, extrapolating from the pattern of their evolution and increasing intelligence that if they hadn't gone extinct that they may have evolved into a almost bird like humanoid intelligent species. . . They actually did a documentary on it on the Discovery Channel...

An episode of Star Trek Voyager actually dealt with that concept with a similar species having evolved on Earth and developed warp drive in time to escape the extinction of the dinosaurs and were now a transwarp capable species that didn't like the idea that humans evolved from the same world they came from. A pretty crazy episode but highlighted how prevailant the idea is among sci-fi thinkers.

[largo]

Off topic I know but what episode of voyager was that?

[*zeo]

Star Trek Voyager: Distant Origin, S03E23

[largo]

Thank you very much.

[McAvoy]

One of the better episodes of Voyager I think, though a little farfetched.

As for the Raptors, they are considered to be among the most intelligent species ever, and possibly the most intelligent species of their time.

The evolutionary line that brought us, is definitely not straight nor is it a line, it's a jagged forked road with dead ends.

In WG, it could be possible that before Guyver Zero, humans were the 'old' model and the human forms of Alkanphel and all Creator made humans with the pointed ears, catlike eyes are the new model.

[Juggernought]

With few modifications of course....

- ehanced to peak human strength

- better sensory reception

- designed to follow creator commands religiously and without reservation.

I'm sure there are more to be added.

[*zeo]

In WG there are basically 5 types of humans...

The Archanfel/Pre-Kavzar Elf type...

The Original Creator evolved Humans like Guyver Zero...

The human/creator hybrids, like Isis (FG4) and Will (the modern Guyver Zero)...

The Physically Perfected Humans...

And the Modern Humans, who have changed/evolved a bit since the originals...

Course zoanoids could probably count as a 6th and the Ancients and Kindred could also maybe count as a 7th...

[McAvoy]

Who are the Kindred? Hell, who are the Ancients as well?

.. I am assuming you are not talking about the Ancients from Stargate SG-1... though they are very advanced themselves. Incidently, Anicents seeded Earth and others in Stargate SG-1 with their DNA.

[*zeo]

The Kindred are the vampire like Zoalords from the Nova Guyver fan fiction and the Ancients are all the zoalords that the Creators left behind from the Time War event and their descendant's, like Elera! Basically in the WG fan fiction all the old gods of myth and legend were actually Ancients and Elera may be the last of her kind.