Is the WG's power level too high?

[TheGuyversWill]

Magic is only magic until it's broken down into science.

Purg'stall could in some respects be thought of as a magical figure, he's hit a Gigantic a few times and it lived.

It might hurt a little, maybe crack a few of his body crystals, but I think Dreadnought can take at least two of those dangit!

[*zeo]

I see you are assuming magic is just unexplained.

But magic can be something that completely defies the rules of science.

Thor comes from a different dimension remember, unlike Prug'stall Thor doesn't have to be bound by the rules of science.

If Mjolnir bypasses normal physics then it could be possible it could go right through Dreadnought's defenses and smash both the Matrix and CM.

Besides Prug'stall didn't have anywhere near Thor's physical power.

[largo]

Zeo1234 Wrote:

But magic can be something that completely defies the rules of science.

Thor comes from a different dimension remember, unlike Prug'stall Thor doesn't have to be bound by the rules of science.

But that also being said isn't science and magic two different sides of the same coin?

[*zeo]

On some levels but Magic as I said could follow completely different rules.

Magic doesn't have to follow what we consider logical.

[Rivyn]

I see you are assuming magic is just unexplained.

But magic can be something that completely defies the rules of science.

Science as we understand it nor at least, I mean the rules of science as we know them, could only be a sliver of a fraction of what the true rules of science is, as we're only at point where we're capable of understanding what we currently know. Who knows what else there is to learn yet...

Someone once said that if earth was to be visited by a race of beings with superior technology that could do things we thought was impossible, we would think of that as magic. Or something along those lines at least, I cant remember the quote word for word but thats the long and short of it. The point is that magic is just word.

As for Dreadnaught being capable of taking down Superman, I dont think so >>

He might be able to do that molecular manipulation stuff, but he would have to know all the properties of Kryptonite to be able to convert something into that and in the space of time it would take him to do that IF he knew all the properties of it would leave him open to attack from Super Man, who could zip in and shatter Dreads Control medal before you could blink and then zip out again. I'm well aware that Super Man is more then capable of being killed, but its not by Dreads hands. I think even Anubis would have difficulty taking Super Man down (although i'm not saying he couldnt kill him.)

[largo]

Dude wouldn't have to the matrix is a universal tool. I can do pretty much anything it's only real downfall is it's lack of power and since Jason's is linked to his HSL system I don't think that's a problem. So Jason would easily be able to systhisise(sp?) some Kryptonite, and thats bye bye Superman.

[Twilight-Guyver]

I'm going to ahve to join the ranks of James on the magic thing. Magic is an unknown and people really don't know for certain how it works. If you do then I guess it's explainable and I guess you must be pretty powerful . . . right? If not then you have no clue. The power of magic is mytical and without a true basis of how to scale it's various attributes in comparison to our science there can be no true debate as to which is more powerful. The fact of hte matter is, that magic could be rated far beyond the normal basis of science could be a relative to quantum mechanics personally. It's effects could very well warrant such abilities as those of Dreadnoughts. We just don't know now do we?

Alright, as for Superman versus Dread. I'm sure that the man of steel would put up a great fight and would do a good amount of damage with some of his attacks but if Dreadnought could create kryptonite the nI have to say it would be over rather easily and I tell you right now. Dread wouldn't be sloppy like Lex in Super Man Returns. He gets stabbed, he's going to die. End of story.

[TheGuyversWill]

Dude wouldn't have to the matrix is a universal tool. I can do pretty much anything it's only real downfall is it's lack of power and since Jason's is linked to his HSL system I don't think that's a problem. So Jason would easily be able to systhisise(sp?) some Kryptonite, and thats bye bye Superman.

I thought I went over this one.

Superman went down in round 1.

Dreadnought was coming up on him and was still a couple hundred miles off when he noticed some unnatural force siphoning power from the Earths sun. It seems this beast thrived off the stuff and took his power from it.

Taking this into account, Dreadnought made sure to suck him dry of the "yellow sun radiation" before vaporizing the foul demon's body with a hyper pressure cannon. One has to make sure that such scourges don't lead to the sun blowing up or anything like that.

Superman is too easy. He only has "Super powers" under a yellow sun, plus what he's able to store up in his "living battery" of a body. Take that away from him, and he's just a weak little humanoid in the void of space.

He doesn't even have superior mass density post crisis, post infinite crisis.

Science as we understand it nor at least, I mean the rules of science as we know them, could only be a sliver of a fraction of what the true rules of science is, as we're only at point where we're capable of understanding what we currently know. Who knows what else there is to learn yet...

Someone once said that if earth was to be visited by a race of beings with superior technology that could do things we thought was impossible, we would think of that as magic. Or something along those lines at least, I cant remember the quote word for word but that’s the long and short of it. The point is that magic is just word.

I feel you here. I think what Zeo (James) is trying to relay here is that we are aware of the fact that Thor is a magical entity.

Then again, Reed Richards was able to clone him and create a hammer for him out of science.

I still say that magic is only magic until you put it down into science. The human understanding of science is still in its pre-adolescent stages at best. Our ability to grasp and hold tight to the fundamental properties that make up our universe are almost non-existent.

Thor may be magical, but I’m sure Reed Richards was able to find some way to relay the properties of the character into the logical world.

I think Dreadnought would observe it the same and be able to adjust his shields enough to take a second hit. We’ve seen characters of much lesser merit take a hit from Mjolnir in the past and survive. The fight after that would be the point that Dreadnought might run into problems. I’d wager that Thor’s invulnerability could take a pounding and a half.

I’d still like to see him try his hand against Darksied and the entire planet of Apokolips!

[*zeo]

largo, Dreadnought is extremely powerful but he is not invincible.

The Matrix merged with Dreadnought does allow the Matrix to do things it normally can't but it still has limits. In some ways even more so than a regular Matrix since the merger means part of it is busy constantly enhancing Dreadnought.

So its own abilities are lessened. Jason can't upgrade other Guyvers to WG's for example.

And Will, Superman would never go down that easily.

Besides which Dreadnought can't drain his energy from a distance, at least not quickly and Superman could always just fly through the Sun to Supercharge himself with enough energy to move planets.

Dreadnought could never deal with that much energy.

Red Sunlight won't work cause Superman would still have his charge, modern version doesn't lose his powers under red sun light until his yellow light charge runs out first.

Best bet would be kryptonite but he won't succumb as quickly as he used to and he still retains a fraction of his powers under its influence.

As for the Thor clone, Reed may be able to make a science equivalent but he could not duplicate how the original works. There are things beyond even a super genius like Reed Richards. Otherwise he would have figured out Galactus long ago.

You don't see Reed Richards telling Dr Strange how to do magic after all do you?

Dreadnought's best ability is his ability to adapt but adapting takes time. So it is possible for Thor to kill him if he goes straight for the CM.

Other characters have withstood strikes from Mjolnir before but lets not forget that like Superman, Marvel's Thor doesn't kill unless he has to.

Mjolnir can shatter mountains if Thor really let loose.

Apokolips would be interesting though, with it's mixture of magic and super science it could be possible they could defeat Dreadnought and do some interesting things to him.

But first they would have to defeat him and aside from Darkseid's Omega Beams there aren't that many heavy hitters for him to face.

[TheGuyversWill]

And Will, Superman would never go down that easily.

Besides which Dreadnought can't drain his energy from a distance, at least not quickly and Superman could always just fly through the Sun to Supercharge himself with enough energy to move planets.

Dreadnought could never deal with that much energy.

The “Supercharge” thing was pretty lame when I saw it in the “Our Worlds at War” trade paper back. I don’t know McGuiness just doesn’t rub me the right way. Still, why would he go for the “supercharge” without knowing what he was going up against?

Superman would want to investigate; he wouldn't go straight for the kill. There would be that moment where he was holding Dreadnought like a rag doll. At that point, Dreadnought could suck him dry. He'd be a helpless babe in the void of space. No more Superman.

Dreadnought's best ability is his ability to adapt but adapting takes time. So it is possible for Thor to kill him if he goes straight for the CM.

Other characters have withstood strikes from Mjolnir before but lets not forget that like Superman, Marvel's Thor doesn't kill unless he has to.

Mjolnir can shatter mountains if Thor really let loose.

Alkenphel can shatter a mountain with the right motivation. So can a decently powerful megasmasher.

Let him try to get through the shields. I'm still saying that Dreadnought could take a hit or two. I think after that hit or two Thor would have the upper hand and would probably want to crush him just for the fun of it. Hitting the control medallion is one of those things you'd have to know to go after.

We'd have to imagine that Thor wouldn't be aware of such a crucial flaw.

Apokolips would be interesting though, with it's mixture of magic and super science it could be possible they could defeat Dreadnought and do some interesting things to him.

But first they would have to defeat him and aside from Darkseid's Omega Beams there aren't that many heavy hitters for him to face.

Tons of heavy hitters.

The names escape me right now.

It's dark and the lady is sleeping. I'll look them up when I try my "Dreadnought rules Apokolips" scenario (I love the New Gods and the Forever people! Kirby Rules!).

Someone else should hit this one up first though.

[largo]

You mean Apokolips from X-men right? If that's the case it would seem to me that this one would end up being a who found out whos weakness first kind of thing because both are pretty much skrewed if the other finds out their weakness. For Dreadnought it would be the CM obivously, as for Apokolips it would be the cables that connect his arms to his back. Now for who has a better chance of figuring out the others weakness it would have to goto Dreaddy on this one. For staters he has the matrix which would be able to figure something like that out pretty easally but if he didn't use it he would still try to slice and dice Apokolips and quite possible hit one of the cables. So that's I think thins would run down.

I may not know american comics that well, but I did watch the cartoon that came out in the early 90's which I hear is pretty true to the comic.

[Twilight-Guyver]

Actually we're going for a fight against the inhabitants of Apokolips. You know that planet where Darkseid resides. One of Supermans greatest foes. But I'm sure Dreadnought would wipe the floor with Apocalypse. He's just a mutant after all, maybe an old a$$ one but he is still vulnerable.

[*zeo]

Mutants can be pretty powerful, so let's not just dismiss them out of hand. There are a few in the super power range after all.

Apocalypse is an immortal mutant and a fairly powerful one, but I agree Dread can defeat him.

Still, why would he go for the “supercharge” without knowing what he was going up against?

Cause it wouldn't take Superman long to figure out his opponent, especially now after Superman Prime's death the modern Superman seems to have acquired super awareness.

And he may be even stronger if DC is using the Jet Li "The One" type thinking, since now there is only one parallel version of Superman left in the form of the insanely evil Superboy.

Superman would want to investigate; he wouldn't go straight for the kill. There would be that moment where he was holding Dreadnought like a rag doll. At that point, Dreadnought could suck him dry. He'd be a helpless babe in the void of space. No more Superman.

Don't confuse Dreadnought with Zagam, Dread does not normally have the ability to drain other beings like that.

Also in Space, if Superman is closer to the Sun he recharges super fast.

And Jason may be willing to kill but he's doesn't kill unless he has to. So both of them would be accessing each other.

Alkenphel can shatter a mountain with the right motivation. So can a decently powerful megasmasher.

A Mega Smasher can't shatter a mountain, it'll only blast a big hole into it. It'll take the Giga Smashers to shatter a mountain.

But even if Alkanphel was inclined to destroy a mountain it would drain him to do so. Thor on the other hand has unlimited stamina and Mjolnir will never run out of energy.

So Thor could destroy an entire range of mountains with as much effort as Alkanphel can destroy a couple of buildings.

As for the CM, you are forgetting the head is a natural target for a hammer. So Thor wouldn't have to be aware of the vulnerability, he just has to want to smash Dread's head to a pulp.

And only Dreadnought's most powerful shields could block Mjolnir, provided the magic doesn't effect the outcome.

Tons of heavy hitters.

Not that many, at least not powerful enough to defeat Dreadnought.

The Furies, etc aren't really that powerful, just lethal since they always go for the kill and draw a fair bit of that lethality from their weapons. But Jason can deal with that easily.

Kalibac is just a super strong grunt, Dread would just slice him in half and move on.

Steppenwolf(spell?) guy may be a challenge but Dread should be able to defeat him too.

Dread vs. Hordes of parademons and such, it would be a slaughter.

Which pretty much just leaves Darkseid and his Omega Beams which may be the one thing powerful enough to defeat Dread.

Granny can then have fun with Jason, but that would be too much like how Zagam got created.

[largo]

Dude you guys I just got someone who would give Dreadnought the beating of his life Jesus! Thats right Jesus the son of god the one and only, now there is a payper veiw fight if I ever saw one. And remember Jesus is just like a warrior unit if yah kill it, it dissapears for a while in Jesus case it would be three days and then the fights back on. Also this would assume that Jason lost his revernce for god and what not.

[*zeo]

Uh, largo. . . You must be a South Park fan. Am I right?

Cause if you are I'm sure everyone here will be more than happy to come on over and play pretend.

You can be Kenny

[Twilight-Guyver]

Largo . . . man. I'm not highly religious or anything but Jesus? I love South Park, but dude no. Not a cool opponent. It's Jesus man. He's not about the fight. He's all hippie and peace and love. No fighting for the Christ.

[largo]

Oh come on it was funny you know it. And to be honest I never really thought of south park Jesus until you guys mentioned it. I mean seriously the real source of this idea would be Soul Calibur III I have a Jesus create-a-character that I just own with so hey.

[Twilight-Guyver]

yeah it was funny. Man, mentioning that I need to get back into playing and making some new charactes. Plus, I need a new memory card since it keeps saying it's corrupted.

[largo]

Yah I know Soul Calibur III is imfamous for doing that. The best thing to do is this if you have to memory cards load all of the data from one to the other then delete all of the data on the card that you copy the data from. After that create a new save on the now blank card, also this includes the PS2 system data. The reason for this is SC3 is really tuchy if you do anything to data that was created befor the SC3 data then it usally gets crupted. This has happened to me many of a times, but the game has such a high replay value so no biggie.

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

To speak of technology and magic as seperate entities would be correct and incorrect. They are of the same need, and the same desires, yet they function and operate differently. A person will not come from either one alone, but a tandem of their effort, will, determination, strength, experience, and their adaptability. Dreadnaught may appear to be very powerful, but as that world now, they live in a place where they must constantly adapt to survive. If they do not, they may very well die. Dreadnaught lives in a world where even the slightest shift in the balance of power could mean disaster for his side. They will fight, and fight, and fight, until they can fight no more. Then they will continue fighting, giving it all they have, because they understand that to fail means death, or enslavement. Chronos fights for power. The ACTF and their allies fight for freedom, and the ability to live. The desire to be free is perhaps the greatest of all drives, it is what fueled the American Revolution, it is what spurned the Allies in World War II. It is what drove the two sides of the Cold War. It too spurned the French Revolution.

You have to understand, Jason has to be as strong as he is, because to be otherwise, means defeat, and possible annihalation. The human mind yearns for freedom, freedom from oppressors, and power. In some, hatred, fear and love also drive them to do things they might not otherwise consider doing. In certain worlds, both fiction and our real one, sometimes it is necessary to be stronger than others, because that and adapting is the only way to survive in some cases. If you were dumped in the middle of a large island with indigenous plant and animal life that you wouldn't recognize, would adapt. You would have to to survive. It is like that for the O'Connors, for Sean, for the ACTF. IN one day, they were thrown from a comfortable world, into a new world that they had to adapt to to survive. History has taught us a harsh and painful lesson, that we must adapt if we are to continue forward.

[Juggernought]

This has got to be the longest discussion thread i've seen yet....

[TheGuyversWill]

Oh it's just getting started.

Keep it rolling guys!

How would a fight between Dreadnought and one of these guys go down?

Hulk

Ms. Marvel

Quasar

Wonder Woman

Thanos

Iron Man

Hyperion

Doctor Doom

[largo]

Why just comic super hero's why not cartoon super hero's and just to be annoying why not Dreadnought vs Super Sayian 4 Goku. I mean come on we've been discussing how we've contracted DBZ syndrome so hey why not?

[TheGuyversWill]

Goku is a comic book character.

Japanese comic book character... But still.

[largo]

Yah I forgot the ol brain's been fragging. But if you think about it the Goku I was reffering to was from GT and Z which was never made in to a manga. So ha I was right I think?