mass in zoanoids

[Jukai]

Hmm, you are strangely aggressive. I'm taking this to Private Messaging as to not further hurt the flow of debate on this thread. Feel free to move anything you don't like, but I'd request you not delete it, since it appears you and me cannot work this out between us.

[*zeo]

Guys, stop fighting over me. I'm not worth it ... Jukai, it is true Ryuki and I have debated for years. And we're basically friends (believe it or not) we just get on each others nerves every now and then but it was always based on misunderstanding and not any real intended hostility of any kind.

But Ryuki, Jukai is also right about over reacting, take the first quote from when you said I did it again... Look carefully at the second sentence... Specifically...

it is part of my conjecture

- I wasn't trying to state it as fact, I was explaining my line of reasoning!

Words like "indicate" are the same as saying "this seems to make sense".

So I was definitely following your rules in that last post, but I still got hammered for voicing my opinion and just showing what I thought it all added up to.

I'll answer that for Super Existence if you don't mind, Zeo

The question is if the Bio-Booster Clone Monster is a "complete clone." It looks nothing like the Guyver Unit, and you can either think "well.. that's what the organism would look like if it wasn't hampered by the control media" or you could say "it's just a random creature that came about randomly through the arm"

Either one could be correct and we'll never know cause it'll never tell us

I don't LIKE the Bio-Booster Clone Monster (as you guys keep aptly calling it) anyway, because throughout the series we are told that the DNA of a human is stored in the control media, and that Bio-Boosted monster disproves that completely. Which is aggrivating.

Perhaps this'll help clear that up? And I think this also clears up what the Bio-Boost Creature really is...

And this one explains where I got how the Enzyme was created from something already in the Guyver...

Both images were taken from parts of the Advocacy Translated Visual Data File Book scans that are available on this site.

As for whether or not we can conclude that everything save the CM is organic, I think these links might help give some perspective...

Molecular Self Assembly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_self-assembly

Using inorganic minerals in organic systems is also quite common. For example, besides Iron we got...

Calcium is a soft grey alkaline earth metal, and is the fifth most abundant element by mass in the Earth's crust.

So our bones are an example of biology using inorganic elements to form complex structures and integrating them into our biology, since calcium is also vital to the proper function of our physiology.

So I can't say we can conclusively conclude that everything save the CM is inorganic, really we can't yet rule out that the CM may be a composite of organic and inorganic material like it was suggest in the live action film (Course we can't use that for proof for the Manga, however the ability of the Navigation Spheres to reconfigure themselves does indicate the CM may be more than it appears).

[Jukai]

Hey! Where are those Zeo! I've never seen those, they're friggin' awesome... and do prove your points!

As for Molecular Self Assembly... it's an interesting theory that I never really thought of, but rather uncommon. Also, I may be wrong, but don't creatures have to gather the material somehow? Like, we just can't form calcium, we have to absorb it. Now knowing that the gravity spheres form every time no matter what, I'm more inclined to think they're biological instead of purely inorganic. Could be a combination.

is there data files for the gravity orbs?

[*zeo]

Check the VDF (An official book published detailing most of the information on the Guyver Universe) topic in the Guyver Advocacy Area (image file names indicate which pages I got them from), they scanned the whole book and translated just about everything into english, just like they did most of the Manga.

As for Molecular Self Assembly, remember the Guyver can regenerate from just a few cells and the CM.

So apparently it draws all it needs from the Boost Dimension. The data file does say the Guyver doesn't need to eat, as one of the reasons why it regresses the internal organs since they aren't needed in Guyver form.

And I would think that if the unit can regenerate calcium for bone, iron for blood, etc... then it can regenerate other minerals and elements as wells.

As to what I think they are, I think the whole Guyver, including the CM, is a combination of all elements... Explaining to me anyway, why the Guyver is so tough (composite materials composition) and why G1 weighs 575 pounds (very dense) while he is not even 6 feet tall.

Just look up the weight of stone and metal statues for comparison. Simply put a purely organic body would not be that heavy at that size because we're mostly made up of water!

Even someone wearing medeval style body armor would be hard pressed to be that heavy at that height.

Course the Bio-Boosted Creature was also pretty heavy (I think it was Book 2 that showed its exact weight and height in Creature form), possibly indicating the organism may not be purely organic.

[*Jess♥]

Hmm, you are strangely aggressive. I'm taking this to Private Messaging as to not further hurt the flow of debate on this thread. Feel free to move anything you don't like, but I'd request you not delete it, since it appears you and me cannot work this out between us.

no actually jukai, you are not taking this to PMs you are not taking this anywhere, you do not dictate terms on this forum.

you have been absolutely disrespectful of me. I am responsible for upholding the rules for all members and ensuring that the place remains civil for all people.

If I had spoken to my boss that way, I would have been fired on the spot.

If I made a mistake in my judgement then by all means you can question it or ask another admin, but you do not tell me to 'cut it out'.

I have tried to be patient and calm and tried to be as forgiving as i can with you, but the fact is I am in a position that requires respect. I don't necessarily like it all the time, but that is the way it is and you have broken that.

IT is therefore my duty to give you an official warning for disrespect.

I do not want to hear another word on it in this forum because that will constitute a further infringement.

any consequent infringements will result in further warnings and if need be, suspension.

now continue the debate.

[*Jess♥]

- I wasn't trying to state it as fact, I was explaining my line of reasoning!

Words like "indicate" are the same as saying "this seems to make sense".

in that case, I apologise, I should have read it more, carefully, I was a bit hasty.

I still need you to explain your logic though. because that bit didn't seem to make sense to me at all.

I can't see how one things leads to another in that paragraph. there doesn't seem to be any link.

[Jukai]

no actually jukai, you are not taking this to PMs you are not taking this anywhere, you do not dictate terms on this forum.

you have been absolutely disrespectful of me. I am responsible for upholding the rules for all members and ensuring that the place remains civil for all people.

If I had spoken to my boss that way, I would have been fired on the spot.

If I made a mistake in my judgement then by all means you can question it or ask another admin, but you do not tell me to 'cut it out'.

I have tried to be patient and calm and tried to be as forgiving as i can with you, but the fact is I am in a position that requires respect. I don't necessarily like it all the time, but that is the way it is and you have broken that.

IT is therefore my duty to give you an official warning for disrespect.

I do not want to hear another word on it in this forum because that will constitute a further infringement.

any consequent infringements will result in further warnings and if need be, suspension.

now continue the debate.

A few things we should clear up here

a) you are not my boss.

b) There is no rule that I must give respect to a forum member (even the founder) who is giving none in return

c) If I see you blatantly abusing your own rules that you made yourself, I'm not going to let it go

we ARE going to take this to PM, but I just wanna make it clear that I'm not going to back down on this.

I'm also sending a carbon copy to some admins to see what they feel.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Jukai

[*Jess♥]

suspended for 10 days.

[*zeo]

Okay, basically when I think these things out I basically lay it out in my mind like a math problem... Starting with given facts and then reasoning out conclusions from there... (Warning, this will be a long explanation)

(Given)

•We can establish that the Guyver gets its power from the Boost Dimension... that much is not in dispute.

What the activation description in the Data File indicates is that the Unit augments the host by instantly remodeling them and infusing the host with energy from the Boost Dimension... correct?

(Reasoning)

•Now here's the part where I took several factors and added them together for a conclusion...

A) The Bio-Boost Creature indicates that the Bio-Boost is a natural function of the Organism. (This related to your point of why doesn't the Bio-Boost power the Zoanoids if that is what they use to transform)

B) The Bio-Boost Creature did not have a Gravity Control Orb, but if it could still Bio-Boost then the GCO is not needed for the Bio-Boost.

C) If the GCO is not needed for the Bio-Boost but draws power from the same source then that indicated it serves another purpose.

(Basically A+B=C type thinking)

Inferring that these three lines of thought equate to each other, then these three lines of thought together gives an indication that the Guyver Unit is using the GCO to supplement its energy. But that brings up the question as to why it would need to...

•The next step in my reasoning seeks to answer this...

Now I know you previously answered that the answer was "Efficiency" but, in my reasoning, in order to effect a change in the efficiency of a power system you need to basically regulate/change the flow of energy. But adding a second power source would not regulate the flow of energy, it's supplementing it.

(An example of Efficiency, to me, would be the Gigantic Power Amps, since they change the flow of energy and thus the efficiency of the power system.)

Going from there... If you are supplementing a power source it's the same as say adding a backup generator to your house. The purpose is not for efficiency but to provide power when the main power source does not.

(Similarly to using batteries in a solar power system, the batteries are there to provide energy when the sun doesn't. This is what I would normally equate with the use of a supplemental power source.)

This line of reasoning suggests to me that the Initial Bio-Boost of the Unit does not provide a continuous power source. If true then this means the GCO was created to supplement the Guyver's energy supply.

•The reason I then described it as a secondary power source was because I've concluded that it is a secondary device to the Organism's own Bio-Boost and because it seems to me that the Activation Bio-Boost provides far more power than the GCO.

•My reasoning for power disparity is based on the following observations...

1) When activated the unit would require a massive amount of energy to instantly remodel the host and empower all the Guyver weapon systems.

2) The deactivation and then reactivation of the Unit by Sho seemed to indicate the Armor can regenerate faster from the activation Bio-Boost since it was still damaged when it was deactivated but Bio-Freezer noted that all the damage was gone when the Armor was reactivated moments later.

3) When Agito Stole the Gigantic from Sho it had been heavily damaged in the battle with Purg'stall but when it appeared on Agito an instant later it showed no damage at all and was only low on energy.

(Note I also infer from this that a massive amount of energy was needed to regenerate the Gigantic so quickly that even if that energy was not sufficient to fully recharge the Gigantic it still out classed the energy provided by the GCO when you compare rates of regeneration)

4) It can be noted that during normal operations the Guyver regeneration may be fast but still takes several minutes just to regenerate a chest wound and other damage.

(Note I'm assuming rate of regeneration equates directly with the level of available energy because if the Guyver doesn't eat then the only source for the mass required for regeneration has to come from absorbed energy and for the Guyver we know this comes from the Boost Dimension)

These four observations add up to me to indicate that the GCO is inferior to the Activation Bio-Boost, and to me an inferior power source is secondary.

•This now gave two conclusions...

1) The Natural Bio-Boost was not a continuous source of Energy.

2) The Reason the Guyver can use the Boost Dimension for Continuous power is because it's energy infusion from the Bio-Boost is being supplemented by the GCO.

•Now assuming all my reasoning is correct I then applied it to your argument that the Bio-Boost theory would not explain the Zoanoid Mass change because it would provide them with energy and thus they should be more powerful and not tire.

The conclusions I gathered from my lines of reasoning indicate to me that the Bio-Boost appears to only provide energy while the boost dimension is being accessed.

Add that it was my understanding of the Guyver Organism that the Bio-Boost was a natural part of its function but that in its original state it was a parasitic organism.

If the Organism evolved both the ability to Bio-Boost but is still a Parasite, then this indicates to me that the organism didn't use the Bio-Boost for energy. Since to me having a limitless source of energy would remove the need to eat just like it does for the Guyver.

By process of elimination of possibilities then the solution that I arrive at is that the Organism evolved the Bio-Boost to help it alter its mass to better mimic the beings it devoured.

•This then answers your point on why the Zoanoids don't get more energy from the Bio-Boost if that is indeed what they use to help them alter their mass and transform as my theory suggests.

Since my conclusion from my conjectured lines of thought indicate the natural bio-boost is just a means for altering mass rapidly. So like a siphon pump, the energy from the boost dimension is only accessed during the mass shift and once achieved it stops. Thus explaining why zoanoids can't use the effect to gain more energy.

I also reasoned that efficiency would also factor in that in order to access the Boost Dimension a certain amount of energy had to be given by the Zoanoid to make the link, though the Bio-Boost may give some of that back it would be equivalent to a process of diminishing returns if most of the energy only goes to adjusting mass.

Does all that make my reasoning understandable?

[*Jess♥]

thank you zeo, yes that all makes sense to me now.

that was certainly a lot of writing and perfectly explained.

I can see why you say you miss a lot out of your posts.

maybe in order to shrink posts,... maybe it would be best not to address every point of other people's posts? if a point that is brought up does not seem likely, maybe it can be ignored? and then only addressed if it is repeated. how do you feel about that?

I feel that the bio-boosting properties of the bio-booster creature is a core system within the cells. this system could be imagined as a small piece of gravity control orb, or a gravity control element - GCE. so if every cell has GCE in it, then this enables a small 'bio-boost' that gives the bio-booster creature it's abilities. so what is the gravity control orb? concentrated GCE? is this plausible?

so the efficiency i mentioned.. I was not referring to a system that regualtes efficiency, rather a power source put in place so as to PROVIDE efficiency. so like.. let's say we have a horse drawn carriage... you add an engine to it, it is more efficient because it takes up a smaller space and provides more output.

another way of looking at it is that the gravity orb could simply be for when the Guyver needs a large supply of energy for example using the gravity cannon. if this is the case, then the gravity control orb is not active at any time apart from when the Guyver needs more energy than the bio-booster cells alone can provide. this I feel is further supported by the presence of extra gravity orbs at the chestplates of the gigantic guyver.

whoever made teh Guyver unit may have recognised the ability of the bio-booster cells to breach the dimensional threshold and cause teh organism to concentrate this ability in a certain organ, but perhaps when putting the creature under restraint, they did not understand the actual mechanism.

on the other hand they may have.

if it were the Creators that created the Guyver units, then it is likely they may have understood the concept. this could be why alkanphel is capable of breaching the boost dimension and travelling through it. the properties of teh gravity control orb are present in the zoacrystal.

the question is though.. if this mechanism were present in zoanoids and zoacrystals, why are they so inefficient? it doesn't make sense. teh Creators surely would have wanted their creations to be ultimately powerful. of course teh mind control was there, so no matter how powerful the creation may be, if it is controllable then fine. so why are zoanoids not ultra powerful? I feel that is because they do not have the same mechanism as teh bio-booster creature. maybe teh Creators were trying tio mimic that effect but did not manage to get it perfected. maybe they managed to have a very crude method of opening the dimensional threshold but only proprtional to hte amount of matter exhisting here in relationship to mass/gravity. if gravitons are used to open it then maybe the zoanoid system uses a certain number of gravitons and exchanges them ior something.

the point I am trying to make here though is that the zoanoids system is very limited. and limited specifically by how much chemical energy they have taken in (eating for a regular zoanoid and amniotic for libertus and enzyme 3)

the guyvers system is not limited by anything, only time. a Guyver regenerated from just a few cells. completely. and was powerful enough to fire the megasmasher. teh bio-booster clone monster regenerated an entire body from just an arm. teh closest zoanoid to that is aptom and he showed that he could only regenerate a small piece.. after that he needed to consume elegen to actually do anything.

interesting thought about that is that the arm that was left was a zoanoid arm and that arm transformed into part of his human form.. since zoanoids appear to be more dense, this makes sense that one arm would equal a larger portion of a human form. conservation of energy wins out in this scenario.

also... I just had a thought...

what about when the Relic TRANSMITTED bio energy to murakami? how does that work? also the ark sending energy to imakarum. what happens there? psionic energy? does that relate to chi? a possible storage medium for extra energy to make up mass? just a thought.

edit: I was just considering the reasoning for the bio-boost creature to be parasitic, and i concluded that if the creature can replicate cells so easily, then it may replicate so much that it feels it requires an influx of fresh dna to prevent genetic decay. it may take foreign dna and splice it with it's own dna ensuring to maintain it's dimensional breaching qualities.

[*zeo]

Hmm, an interesting thought... but doesn't the description from the VDF indicate that it only mimics its victims and that it is its nature to seek out and devour other life forms for the specific purpose of food?

Basically, from what I understand about the Guyver Organism give me the impression that Takaya based both the Guyver Organism and Aptom on John Carpenter's The Thing. Since they are both so very similar to that creature. Both having the ability to absorb other life and then mimic them. . . They even both have the ability to regenerate after most of their body had been destroyed.

If not for the CM then the Guyver Organism would be practically the same as The Thing...

thank you zeo, yes that all makes sense to me now.

that was certainly a lot of writing and perfectly explained.

I can see why you say you miss a lot out of your posts.

maybe in order to shrink posts,... maybe it would be best not to address every point of other people's posts? if a point that is brought up does not seem likely, maybe it can be ignored? and then only addressed if it is repeated. how do you feel about that?

[Nods vigoriously ] Yes, perhaps we should post a general warning that no one ask me to elaborate

(Warning, do not under any circumstance trigger the Zeo Armageddan Paradox: An affliction of nerdom that causes its victim to over think everything. In its final stages the victim can be triggered by a simple question and cause an explosion of mega post writing that ultimately will collapse the internet into a quantum singularity that will swallow up the whole planet and end existence as we know it )

No more caffine for me

•Okay, back to the debate. . . well lets start by getting rid of that horse versus engine Analogy (engine replaced the horse). I know what you are trying to say so let's just replace it with a better Analogy... Such as an Electric Assist Bicycle, you still ride it like a normal bicycle (thus the original source of energy is still present) but the electric assist motor makes it easier for you to go up hills, etc. - Now with that Analogy you can then make a case of efficiency in a system that uses two sources of energy, which is a valid alternative view. And the Gigantic would seem to support that view as you have indicated. . .

•But as to the question of how it would apply to Zoanoids, and whether the Bio-Boost is continuous or not, there are a few problems that I can see...

1) Zoanoids don't have anything like a GCO's, so they don't have a way to increase their efficiency, and as far as we can tell the Bio-Boost Creature also didn't have a GCO. Thus I think it shows they are likely limited to just the Bio-Boost (or something like it, such as Jukai's favored Zero Point Energy theory) factor I have suggested to explain the mass shift.

2) It is likely that Zoanoids don't dedicate as much of their cells to the Bio-Boost system as the Guyver Organism does. A possible indication of this would be the high body density of the organism.

The Bio-Boost Creature for example was (according to the Data File in Book 2) 218 cm (~7 Feet 2 Inches) Tall and weighed as much as G1 at 261 kg (575.5 Pounds or 41.1 Stones). Making it denser than any zoanoid by a 2 to 1 ratio (A Broiz for example is 222 cm tall and weighs 139 kg), and thus even if each cell produced the same amount of energy the Guyver Organism would still have at least twice more, if not much more since it is likely zoanoids would produced significantly less.

This would also be true with your theory that the system used in zoanoids could be a poor imitation of the Guyver Organism System.

3) An observation that would support the minimum energy to trigger a Bio-Boost and thus suggest a non-continuous Bio-Boost system would be that it apparently took both G1 and the Bio-Boost Creature about 11 hours (clock observation for G1) or more before they regenerated, which would seem to indicate that they needed time before they could have enough energy to use the Bio-Boost system for regeneration.

But the significance of this could be further emphasized by the previously mentioned disparity of the rate of regeneration... So any theory seeking to define the Bio-Boost would have to explain this apparent disparity.

•These seem to indicate to me that the Bio-Boost is not continous, that it just provides the initial infusion of energy from the Boost Dimension and that the GCO is not being used to provide additional energy on top of the Bio-Boost. As otherwise the rate of regeneration disparity would be the reverse of what I have noted.

It can also be noted that the VDF seems to support the idea that most of the energy from the Bio Boost goes into increasing mass, such as the description of the rate of bone and muscle tissue growth being increased, etc. would seem to indicate the Bio-Boost is increasing mass during the activation process.

All of which would seem to indicate that the GCO just provides a lower sustainable energy siphon to keep the Guyver at full power between Bio-Boosts.

An Analogy would be a recharging battery, would be first charged at full current but then switches to a trickle current once fully charged and the trickle current is used to keep the battery topped out.

But if my theory is right then the Guyver can't trigger the Bio-Boost without altering mass and thus is stuck with just the trickle current from the GCO, which would explain why it takes so long to recharge the Mega Smashers and why the rate of regeneration appears slower during normal Unit use but apparently so rapid during a Bio-Boost.

•To summarize, I think the reasons Zoanoids can mass shift is because they employ a system similar to the Guyver Bio-Boost but this system needs a minimum amount of energy to trigger and primarily only provides energy for the mass shift required for the transformation.

Each zoaform would have a different level of efficiency and thus use of their ability to utilize the Bio-Boost would vary, meaning they wouldn't all draw the same amount of energy from the Bio-Boost.

Like comparing a Model T to a modern Hemi, even with both having access to the same fuel... How much fuel gets used and how much power is generated is quite different. Thus limiting their power to the level of sophistication of each zoaform type...

All of which explains why zoanoids wouldn't be more powerful, since without turning them into Guyvers they wouldn't have access to all the factors that make the Guyver Bio-Boost system superior.

Course I'm assuming that the Creators did have some understanding of the Bio-Boost system, based mainly on the fact the Guyver can do things which the Boost Organism could not. Such as storing itself in the Boost Dimension. And the Relics, Meteors, Gigantic, Teleported Unit Remover, all indicate they had mastered the ability to manipulate and use the Boost Dimension for various purposes.

But as you suggested this could explain Archanfel's abilities and level of power.

•I also think it can be noted that the Creators were planning to continue the experiment on another planet, so the zoanoids were likely not the final note on the experiment and the Guyver Zero experiment, if it had been successful and not given them the reason to scrap the project, would have meant that all the zoanoids would have been thus equipped and then they would all have been incredibly powerful.

•On a separate note, the thing with gravity is all positive energy produces it, so the energy from the siphon itself could produce the gravitational energy. It is also possible that the GCO could be switching between powering the Guyver and Powering the Gravity Energy systems of the Guyver, such as the momentum enhancers and gravity gyros as well as the Pressure Cannon.

Regardless of my theory though, you have brought up some good points... I just obviously have some issue with how it would fit everything we know but if you can adjust your theory to account for factors I've mentioned, or find reasons we can dismiss them, then I will have to re-evaluate my theory but right now I'm still leaning towards believing my theory still works to explain all the factors we have discussed or at least that some variation of it, like the Zero Point Energy alternative, should be the case.

Though currently I think YoungGuyver might have a better alternative theory to compete with the Bio-Boost based one.

Edit: I think the concept of Qi/Chi/Ki is sufficiently complex enough that it would require opening a separate topic for it, since very few westerners actually understand the concept, which is partly why I didn't reply to your Imakarum example. Also it'll take some calculation to figure just how much energy was sent to him since Barcus stated that the Ark had stored about 6 months of Solar energy and all of that was given to Imakarum.

Okay, doing the math... let's just say Archanfel made very sure Imakarum would be back to full strength...

Assuming of couse the Ark is as efficient at converting solar energy as a plant, we are basically talking around 90%. And the insolation of solar energy in Earth Orbit is about 1366 Watts Per Hour for every square meter.

But the Ark's length alone is 51020 meters, the total surface area is immense, so any way you cut it that over a period of 6 months the Ark could have absorbed enough energy to take out an entire state, or small country.

Basically the numbers I got ranged from a minimum surface area exposure of several hundred Mega Tons of TNT worth of energy and a peak of 4.15 Giga Tons of Energy if the full surface of the Ark was used for all 6 months.

So conservatively speaking we're talking about at least a Giga Ton worth of energy that was all channeled into Imakarum, or basically enough energy to account for about just over 100 pounds of matter.

This would seem to support YoungGuyver's theory, at least for the Zoacrystal.

[*V Guyver]

I always figured the transformation and mass gain was from rapid cellular growth and protein metamorphosis. Using base structures of proteins and DNA encoded to the body to suddenly begin transformations by causing the entire body to start rapidly dividing cells and huge metabolism spurts. Problem with zoanoids is explaining where all that energy came from. I then remembered that there are multiple processes to complete a zoalord. Maybe one of the sources was a method of cutting back on the energy used, and possibly creating a biological battery from which they can draw upon. I figured the lost likely places would be stored in muscle in fat, but it could also be the brain, but much more highly condensed then normal. When it's time to destransform, they simply breakdown the cells and add all the access energy, proteins, and other chemical makeups back into this energy storage method.

Even with my theory and others, I have to wonder how they would maintain such energy... if you were gregole 24/7, I'd expect you to be like a lion, eating much more weight then your own body. So i have to wonder how they sustain their own bodies.

[Guest Wyrm]

WARNING: LONG-A$$ POST! (All relevant, though... I think)

The first thing I'd like to point out is that any system of zoanoid mass increase that does not involve some sort of extra-zoanoid source of mass/energy is going to run straight into that brick wall known as the first law of thermodynamics, which at it's core is merely a statement the conservation of mass and energy in physics. If the zoanoid weighs more in the zoaform than it does as his human form, then the difference in mass must come from outside the zoanoid.

This, fundamentally, is the reason why mere accelerated growth and breakdown of tissue doesn't adequately explain zoamorphs or the Guyvers, V Guyver. The material to build up tissue has to come from somewhere (in us, from the food we eat), and the material from broken down tissue has to go somewhere (in us, the CO2 you breathe out and... other... stuff, which usually goes down the nearest toilet). It doesn't matter where or how you store the excess mass inside your body; as a part of your body, it will contribute to your mass regardless whether it is tissue or stored nutrient. Therefore, transforming to and from the zoaform must involve shuttling matter/energy to and from somewhere which is not a part of the zoamorph's body proper.

No, converting the excess mass to energy is not an answer. It's not even possible. Energy is equivalent to mass. Even a photon gas has some heft to it.

Now that we know that the mass/energy of the zoaform stored away when not in use is not a part of the zoamorph's body proper, where does it come from?

1) Zero point energy: talking about real physical theories here, ZPE is very difficult to extract, due to the very way it comes about. In general, ZPE refers to the fact that, in many systems, the energy of the ground state of that system (that is the state of the system with the least energy) is NOT zero — it means nothing more. In simple harmonic oscillators (SHOs), this ZPE is E=hf/2, where f is the natural frequency of the oscillator in hertz (recall that SHO oscillate at a particular frequency). When we're talking about ZPE as a source of energy, we're talking about vacuum energy, which is modeled by taking a bunch of SHOs of all frequencies. Since they're already in their lowest energy states, getting the energy out of the vacuum energy requires destroying the oscillators. The way to do this is to hold two conductive plates very close and parallel to each other. The pressure (gradient of energy per unit area) is -ℏcπ^2/240 a⁴, where a is the separation between the plates. Conceptually, we can attach a string to one plate and let it lift a flea.

Sounds easy, except 'conductivity' depends on a large number of electrons, and is meaningless at the very small scale. The approximation breaks down with very small plates, and when they get very near to each other. At about 1 nm (10^-9 m), the very distinction between one plate and the other starts to blur, and at 0.1 nm, the distinction disappears completely. So we integrate our pressure relation from infinite separation to 0.1 nm and get (fanfare please) 433.4 Joules per square meter of plate. Hmmm...

Okay, 99.9% of this energy is generated in the last 0.9 nm of separation. Suppose we divide human flesh into 1 nm sections and let them all collapse and generate the energy. That makes a billion square meters of 'plate' in a cubic meter of flesh, resulting in 433.4 GJ of energy. A human body is about 2 cubic meters in volume, so we got just about 1 TJ of energy. Compare this to the 4.184 TJ of energy in a kiloton of TNT. Sadly, there isn't enough ZPE in human flesh to deliver the goods.

2) Gravitational Energy: As zeo described it, "Drawing power from the gravitational fields of both the Earth and the Sun." Problem: Gravitational energy is a potential energy... that is, an energy of configuration. The field itself contains no energy; the energy is in the arrangement of matter that is the Earth-Sun system. In order to get energy out of a gravity field, you have to rearrange the matter in it. The easiest way to get gravitational energy from a body is to squeeze it... bring in all the little bits closer together. If we do this to Earth, if we shrink the Earth by one meter, we get somewhere around 8.39365 gigatons of energy, the mass-energy equivalent to ~390 kg, a good-sized zoanoid. To get a million of them, a horrible lowball of what X-day needed, we'd need to compress the earth by 1000 km in size.

This obviously didn't happen, and besides which, there's a problem with this theory: the size of the Earth comes from an equilibrium of gravitational force and internal pressure. The earth is the size it is because it is because while letting the earth collapse releases gravitational energy, compressing the matter of the earth takes energy! At earth size, it takes more energy to compress the earth than the energy liberated by reducing gravitational energy. Same story with the sun.

There is one source of gravitational energy that may be useful: the orbital energy of the earth. Slow down the Earth's orbit... BAM! Energy! In the neighborhood of the earth's normal orbit, dropping the earth 1 km closer to the sun yields a whopping 4 gigatons of energy. Dropping the Earth 2.5 km closer gives us enough for a darzeb, and getting a million requires us dropping the earth closer by about 1 million km.

Now we know the energy is available, how about how fast we can liberate it? Well, the rate of change of this orbital energy is about the same order as the orbital velocity. To drop the earth 1 million km closer to the sun requires 10 hours, give or take (Earth whizzes around at about 27 km/s). This is about 30 zoanoids/second. Kahn's stunt, however, easily would require much more than that. His 50 m body would require about 8 million zoanoids to complete, which would take the earth about four days to drop the required distance. That's out.

3) EMS: Again, the earth's electromagnetic field is a potential, and thus an energy of configuration. There is no energy in the field; EM energy takes the form of EM radiation... that is, light and heat. The solar constant is about 1 kW per square meter. With profile area of a human body about 2 square meters, it would take half a billion years to gather the required energy.

4) Matter Conversion: Says zeo, "Drawing from the Atmosphere for the energy/matter needed." With atmospheric density at around 1.2 kg/m³, that would require a cube of air 7 m on a side. There would be this HUGE SUCKING NOISE, and if you're in a vacuum, you're SOL.

5) Neutrinoes: The energy flux of neutrinoes in this part of space is about the same order as the solar neutrino flux. The order of energy flux in the solar neutrino flux is about the same order as the solar constant. Plus, there's this little annoying detail that the ghostly neutrinoes are ghostly precisely because they rarely interact with anything. One of these suckers can fly through an entire light year of lead and never notice anything the matter.

6) White hole: A white hole will spew matter as fast as the corresponding black hole will eat it. They will emit somewhere around 10⁵¹ Watts regardless of size. Sizzle.

7) Chi: This is the only one likely to work, besides the bio-boost space, as it doesn't have annoying things like real physics getting in the way.

Yeah, studying physics in university sometimes obliterates your pet theories, but it beats the heck out of being wrong and not knowing it.

[Johnleprekan]

Perhaps the high energy coming excites the mitochondria and changes it into a more wavelike form. Waves can exist in multiple places at once. Like a hologram, if you were to divide it, the pieces would contain the whole. This projection would just then need enough energy to become "real". I'm not entirely certain, but should the mithochondria produce new amino acids from this process, then this resource could be assembled quickly into more complex forms such as proteins, lipids, and what the cell needs to grow.

I borrowed concepts from others so it isn't completely my own idea. If I'm stepping on anybody's toes, I apologize.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Johnleprekan