mass in zoanoids

[*Jess♥]

so when a zoanoid transforms into it's battleform, it seems to gain mass?

well first off I think we need to confirm this factor.

what evidence do we have that a human form does not have great mass?

(the only one i can think of is mizuki helping fumio... but that may or may not be reliable. there may be other factors involved.)

can we come up with some way of explaining how a human form has the same mass as his battleform?

if not, and there is really a mass discrepancy, how can we go about explaining it?

we have already had some idea, but maybe we need to clear it up.

while we are talking about this, I think that a good subtopic to be involved in this maybe at a later stage in this thread... conservation of energy and how it applies to the Guyver universe. for example, the miniature explosive that the test-type has with him. I think i remember issues with that.

oh well that could come later, let's see how we go.

[*zeo]

Well from the data files we know many zoaforms can weigh a couple hundred pounts.

Derzerb for example weighs 354 kg (~780.44 Pounds or nearly 56 Stones), at a height of 240 cm (~7 Foot and 10.5 Inches Tall)

His human form is much shorter and shorter framed in comparison, meaning he would have to be super dense to have the same mass as his battle form. But a human who weighs as much as Derzerb does in his battle form would show it practically with every step. Or just getting in and out of a car would cause a noticeable shift in the suspension, neither of which was ever shown.

The original Enzyme weighed 324 kg (~714.3 or about 51 Stones), at a height of 257 cm (~8 Foot and 5 Inches Tall). If he had the same mass in his much smaller human form then I think it should have been noticeable. . . Like in the Anime Enzyme was shown having thunderous steps as he walked but made no such effect while he was still in his human form.

Regular Zoanoids on the other hand may only be a little heavier than normal humans, like Gregole weighs 150 kg (~330.7 Pounds or ~23.5 Stones) and is 235 cm (7 Foot and 8.52 Inches) tall. But that mass contained in a human size body would still be excessive.

The biggest problem with this is that during pre X-Day zoanoids had to blend in with normal People and many didn't even know they were zoanoids, such as that village of civilians that Chronos used against the Guyvers.

Now not everyone may not be that concerned with their weight but weighing about twice the weight you should weigh would I think be noticeable by most people, not to mention the effect on your furniture, etc.

There is also other factors like the Zoanoid weapons also take up mass and need energy to be generated, like Gaster's Bio-Missiles or even Vamore's Lasers, which are chemically fueled.

Not to mention the transformation itself would require a fairly massive amount of energy to facilitate such a rapid and dramatic change.

So that's why I think, when taking such factors into consideration along with others that relate, that we can only conclude the zoanoids are able to increase their mass.

I thus theorize that the Creators, having already had access to the Guyver Units knew how the Bio-Boost system works and adapted it for the zoaforming process.

It for example goes along with the apparent fact the Guyver also increases mass, Sho as G1 for example weighs 261 kg (~575.5 Pounds or 41.1 Stones) and only increases height to 174 cm (5 Foot and 8.5 Inches). Making him incredibly dense for his size.

Sho himself of course doesn't weigh anywhere near that much and even the dormant unit mass shouldn't come anywhere near adding enough mass, since Sho was able to easily lift it. And the Guyver Unit seems to expand once it goes onto the host, which makes sense considering the VDF indicates the unit instantly increases both bone and muscle growth as part of the transformation. But this is part of the Bio-Boost process. . .

During the Clone Monster event, where G1's severed forearm fully merged with the Guyver Organism and became a Bio-Boosted Clone monster version of Sho. But despite not having access to either the Control Metal or the Gravitational Orb, the device also responsible for siphoning energy from the Boost Dimension to help power the Guyver, the Creature was still able to transform back and forth between a form similar to Sho's and a zoanoid like monster form...

We also know the organism is specially called the Bio-Boosted Organism, which further suggests it naturally has the ability to tap into the Boost-Dimension for energy.

All of which adds up I think to a likely answer to the apparent zoanoid inconsistencies.

Course this is just my theory but I think it fits and would explain the mass inconsistency of zoanoids. If we just assume the Creators adapted the mechanism the Guyver Organism uses into the Zoaform transformation system.

The Zoalord's also bring this up, like Waferdanos natural state was a forest but the zoacrystal allowed him to compress his form into a single mobile humanoid shape. So this would also explain how that could be possible as well as explain how the Zoa-crystals could contain so much energy.

[*Jess♥]

ok yes this all makes sense and I agree that they must increase in mass.

it seems pretty conclusive.

ok now to question how it would occur.

if the ability to siphon energy from the boost dimension was so straight forward to do - zoafication.. then why do we not see chronos making revolutionary power reactors?

or perhaps this is something that is built in to every cell of ever human being along with our mitochondria and maybe thats why guyvers power output is higher than the creators?

and so chronos would not be able to control this process.. it might be a built in trigger for zoanoid transformation.. that chronos can only UTILISE and then they design hte zoanoid around that.

[*zeo]

I think that is because the effect can only be tapped during transformation, in a way we can think of it like a dimensional version of Bio-Energy Potential.

Essentially shifting mass/energy back and forth between normal space and the boost dimension with just a little effort to trigger the process.

Or for another analogy, I would liken it to breathing. Taking energy/air in and then releasing it back to the source when you're done.

This could also explain why some turn back into human form to recover some of the energy used in the transformation.

The process then presumably takes energy to trigger, similar to how it it takes energy to draw in a breath of air versus the energy we gain from the oxygen in that air. Zoanoids are just not efficient enough to gain that much from the process versus a Guyver.

Like comparing someone with an air tank with someone with a rebreather gear, the one with the rebreather can last hours and use every bit of air while the person with the regular tank can last maybe 30 minutes and waste most of the air. Even with both breathing air there is a big difference in efficiency and how much of it they actually use... Hope that's a good analogy to make the idea easy to understand.

And yes I think it's integrated to the very makeup of the zoanoid's cellular structure, like the mitochondria, etc.

It could be then that they can't replicate the process artificially outside the actual zoaform technology. Because even if I'm right it takes energy to bridge the gap between normal space and the Boost Dimension. And the dimensional coupling would be inheritanly unstable as the dimensional barriers return to normal and the bridge is collapsed.

The basic limitating factor being the exchange of energy only basically works with a mass change, thus can't be used for a power system without constantly changing mass and even that should have limits.

After all even the Guyver seems to draw most of its energy only during the initial activation period and then relies on the Gravity Control Orb for a continuous trickle of energy. Otherwise weapons like the Mega Smasher would recharge far quicker.

However Chronos zoaform technology is not the equal to the Creator's, otherwise they would have made each of the Zoalord's as powerful as Archanfel. Well, at least that is what I think they would do if they had the technology and we do know everything they know they gained from studying Creator technology. So we know at least that their knowledge is second hand to the Creator's.

The Guyver itself is still superior technology since it can siphon energy continuously with the gravity control orb, as well as the fact Guyvers are more dense for their size than zoanoids. Probably because of the CM regulation makes them more efficient and able to handle more energy.

But I think it works well and Takaya did lay the ground work for it by introducing the idea with the Guyver and the fact it was standard equipment for the Creator's long before they ever zoaformed humans. So uses Takaya's own ideas to explain the process instead of relying on creating outside ideas. . .

[Jukai]

You know, it makes sense Zeo, but that in the end is also a very unscientific explanation.

You're saying Chronos hardwires the ability for human cells to tap into other dimensions... I can't even fathom the process to do that. I think it's just as reasonable that the Advent were able to sorta "comptact mass" into cells, It's just as believable and much simpler. It also explains why we haven't found out that the Guyver and Zoanoids get their abilities from the same source, which would sorta be a major portion of the story... and since Chronos have made an artificial Guyver unit, I'm pretty sure they'd be aware that they're creating beings that tap into the Bio-Boost dimension.

Of course, I'm not nearly smart enough to argue this scientifically

[*YoungGuyver]

We kind of sort of have proof that Zoanoids mass shift

The Libertus. They have three different modes. And each mode in the datafiles is listed with a different mass.

Now the funny thing, is that even though there is a mass increase in all zoanoids, it seems to be manifested differently in different kinds. Most notably, Enzyme verses the rest of the normal zoanoids.

Most normal zoanoids mass shift as if it were a simple facial morph. It's as if certain body parts are designed to transform in a given way. A human arm will transform into a zoa arm, and back again. You cut off the zoanoid arm, and the human arm is damaged. You need a processing tank to regenerate it.

An Enzyme 3 is different. If you cut off an Enzyme 3 arm, it can regenerate it assuming it has the ENERGY. Strangely enough, you get the Enzyme 3 tired in battle, it will affect its ability to regenerate. (Note: processing tanks are also used to control the Enzyme 3's, as they are mindless killers without zoalord-so take that into account for regeneration also). It seems that somehow their bodies are more liberal in their ability to channel and redirect energy for cellular growth and regeneration.

Aptom is a real interesting case. He can twist and morph anything around and regenerate anything, assuming he has the energy. So basically Enzyme 3, with his cellular mimic powers?

And let's not forget Griselda and the Libertus. She is able to bestow energy upon them, and help them to heal/recharge in battle. Not even Khan can do this; he must physically absorb the mass of a fully built zoanoid in order to acquire more mass. Why is Chronos so limited in energy and mass then? Why not simply tie raw energy systems into mass generation? I think a simple answer is that the Creators did not have it patched in this way, and Balcus is researching and developing something new. Balcus and Heckering developing Aptom, Enzyme 3, and the Libertus as energy mass shifters unlike what the Creators had made. At least from what we see so far. But if its simple energy conversion, why were the zoanoids originally limited? They had no problems with high power being before, just so long as they were under telepathic command.

I think this relates directly into a discussion on zoanoid energy systems, where we can bring up gravity points, zoacrystal energy storage, and the like.

I need a break, talking more later

We can come up with a wide variety of theories to cover this, and we have in the past.

[*Jess♥]

ok so I am glad somebody mentioned khan. becauser that is interesting. it suggests that a zoanoid is only able to generate extra mass to a degree. after that, they require an influx of actual mass.

so what is teh upper limit to mass aquisition?

does it tally with anything?

jukai, thank you for mentioning the possibility of storing mass.

this is what i was talking about when i mentioned conservation of energy. energy cannot be magically stored?.. it causes weight?

however.. I think that weight/mass is only one form of potential energy...?

there is also the potential energy of a rubber band being stretched. I am uncertain of the science of this, but what if a zoanoid in human form were a really tight elastic band? or something similar? or how about this - zoalords are able to teleport.. this is maybe using quantum mechanics or whatever? maybe this is how zoanoids gain that extra energy?

whatever the method...

I think it is clear that CRONOS DID NOT DEVELOP THIS.. teh Creators made it so that humans could turn into zoanoids.

when cronos develops a zoanoid, teh process they use is usually referred to 'concoction' or 'adjustment' or something like that.

meaning they simply fiddle with what is already there? that's my interpretation.

[Jukai]

A few comments I have after reading your post, YoungGuyver.

First off, Khan did have LIMITED ability of this mass-shifting effect you speak of, as his head did poof up a bit without the help of other Zoanoids. It seems it was out of his range to grow MASSIVE sized though, without millions of Zoanoids. Because of this, we can assume that there is a LIMIT to how much a Zoanoid can 'mass-shift.' Take note of this.

Another thing to note that although rapidly gaining a large amount of mass is an alien concept in the real world, small mass gain, like regeneration, is not. Reptiles, starfish, mice, even HUMANS have all shown the ability to regenerate some body parts, through cell differentiation and embryogenesis and other more scientific concepts that I can barely grasp on the surface. Obviously the regrowth process does take a lot of energy (some lizards starve to death without their tail, cause not only do their tails store energy, but they're using lots of calories to regrow their tail). But, assuming proper energy reserves (remember, they're so full fo energy that I believe the Enzyme IIIs only live a few days), could Enzyme III be using stem cells to regrow its arm?

Could this process explain everything? Get to work, People smarter than me!

Another thing to note, YoungGuyver, you're assuming that the Creators didn't make beings that could regrow their arms or shift into different forms... I'm going to have to go and disagree with you there. First off, we didn't see the abilities of many of the Zoanoids during the Creators time period. Many of them could be hyper-zoanoid level (none of them would be Zx-Tol or Enzyme level because they wanted these creatures to be long lived) and we knew twelve of them were going to be Zoalord level, but I don't think the Advent wanted TOO many ultra powerful Zoanoids... they wanted strength in number, not in might (better so they didn't screw up making anything too powerful, I guess).

There is another reason I say that some of them may have had some mass-shifting abilities. When I was still in that EPIC BATTLE with Zeo, the man had made an interesting point that I had to acknowledge. He said that the Advent had gathered up all the data they could on different evolutions of all the creatures on earth before they began Zoa-forming. Although I still disagree with the latter, the former deffinitely holds some water. I was originally going to shout out "HEY! look at all these weird-ass Zoanoids that Chronos creates! These look nothing like past creatures that lived on the earth!" but I had to remember that Chronos and the Advents are different. If you look back at all the flashbacks of the Advent soldiers, the Zoanoids looked EXTREMELY anamalic. They range from prehistoric looking to some looking more like creatures of today. If the Creators had logged information about creatures that developed the ability to regenerate limbs, there's little doubt in my mind they put it in some of their Zoanoid creations. It would make sense, just to create an adaptable fighter.

Ya know?

edit: Ryuki, I know that cells cannot "store mass." But cells also can't open portals to other dimensions and gather energy. Unless someone can come up with a reasonable theory to your "potential energy" theory or my "cell embryogenesis" theory, we may have to figure this out unscientifically.

Edited May 11, 2008 by Jukai

[*zeo]

Could this process explain everything? Get to work, People smarter than me!

Hmm, not really, no... When People or animals regenerate the immediate effect is just to move cells and basic bodily Resources around to stabilize the wound, such as with blood clotting, etc.

This is why we have to be concerned about blood loss, etc. Since we can't immediately replace it.

The body then has to eat in order to gain the mass needed to replace the lost mass from the wound.

This follows the LAW of Conservation of Energy, in that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Only it's form can be changed and thus it is impossible to mass shift without an exchange of energy/matter. . . At least in the real world and that is what I'm comparing to.

Course there are different ways of absorbing energy than just eating, like plants can absorb neutrients from the dirt and atmosphere and use solar energy to fuel the process needed to convert those neutrients into elements they can use. Basically summing up photosynthesis...

Another thing to note, YoungGuyver, you're assuming that the Creators didn't make beings that could regrow their arms or shift into different forms... I'm going to have to go and disagree with you there.

Well we do have the example of the T-Rex, which the Creators compared to an enhanced Zoanoid. Since it was said to have the power of a whole squad of regular Zoanoids.

To me that suggest that in modern terms that would have been equivalent to a Hyper Zoanoid, at least in physical strength.

And it is true we never have seen the full range of zoaforms the Creators made, even modern zoanoids are often shown by just the basic models when Takaya shows large groups of them. So that could be a good point...

There is another reason I say that some of them may have had some mass-shifting abilities.

Well technically we can say they all had mass shifting ability, since a zoanoid seems to need to mass shift in order to transform into their battle forms.

And you are right that it makes sense to make an adaptable fighter but that's assuming the Creators wanted adaptability beyond the basic soldier yet?

After all the fact they were going to another planet to continue the experiment indicates they weren't done experimenting yet.

Not to mention Aptom is a good example of why not to make a zoaform too adaptable. The Creators were all about control after all, so we could argue that either way.

edit: Ryuki, I know that cells cannot "store mass." But cells also can't open portals to other dimensions and gather energy. Unless someone can come up with a reasonable theory to your "potential energy" theory or my "cell embryogenesis" theory, we may have to figure this out unscientifically.

Well we didn't think cells could use quantum mechanics either before we figured out that the human brain seems to operate like a quantum computer.

Remember, we may be just flesh and bone but cells do produce energy fields as well. We all have bio-electric auras for example. Is it really far fetched to believe an organism could be designed to use that energy to do something amazing?

It's not like we can't find examples of life using elements to do things that flesh and bone alone can't do. Like migrating animals use Earth's magnetic field in order to navigate, while other animals like sharks can see electrical impulses of muscle activity in order to track their prey in virtual darkness. The point being life can interact with energy fields and use them for survival.

True, no life on earth can tap into higher dimensions but my theory isn't that they developed this on Earth but that the Creators learned it from the Guyver Organism and used how the Guyver Organism does it to apply it to their zoanoids.

P.S.> My theory isn't that this process is unlimited, which is why I used the lung analogy. The exact potential I think varies on the class of zoanoid, with Zoalord's having the greatest potential.

[*Jess♥]

so what about more types of potential energy?

[Jukai]

Remember, we may be just flesh and bone but cells do produce energy fields as well. We all have bio-electric auras for example. Is it really far fetched to believe an organism could be designed to use that energy to do something amazing?

Hmm.. Sorry, but to me, yes. It's just as believable to think that the Advent have broken the Law of Conservation of Energy as it is to believe that the Advent have found a way to pre-program human cells to gather energy from another dimension. They both defy conventional science.

I am not completely ditching my cell embryogenesis hypothesis here. Not smart enough to develop a theory though. I'll read up and throw some questions your way.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Jukai

[*Jess♥]

Hmm.. Sorry, but to me, yes. It's just as believable to think that the Advent have broken the Law of Conservation of Energy as it is to believe that the Advent have found a way to pre-program human cells to gather energy from another dimension. They both defy conventional science.

you are corrrect.

taken out of context, each is equally outrageous.

taken in the context ofscience fiction, each is as believable as the other...

BUT taken in the context of guyver,. I think that we need to lean towards the theory that already has grounds elsewhere in the source material.

this is why I have said a number of times now... Is there any other point in the Guyver Manga where it seems that the law of conservation of energy is broken?

if there is a point where you can show quite clearly that it is very likely that the law is broken, then we can investigate that, but until there is some actual basis for that kind of theory, it is just pie in the sky IMO.

so when you say the above paragraph, it seems that you are not considering the Guyver universe and what has been demonstrated as possible within that universe.

so please can we have some proper debate now? instead of a simple game of tennis. let's get some substance in here to analyze.

as for teh embryogenesis idea. I am not familiar with that or how it is relevant. you'll need to explain why you have brought that up and your basis for how it relates to the subject.

I usually like to use analogy when bringing up a theory.

[*YoungGuyver]

Quite a few posts since I left my last here.

Anyway, sorry Jukai, about my comments on the Creator Zoanoids. You are definitely right that they may have types of zoanoids that we havn't seen yet. But I am basing theories on what we have seen, and making predictions from that. Chronos zoanoids are based off Creator zoanoids, and from what we have seen of the bulk of both, they don't really regenerate limbs.

And when I say regenerate, I'm referring to the instant, quick growing regeneration that Enzyme 3 and Aptom appear to do. Yes, Zoanoids can be healed and regenerated in a processing tube, which is like a womb. We also know that processing tubes can recharge them. I was referring to it in this context. Sorry.

And yes, I know Khan, as the main body, form shifted into the brain of the Dragon, which is nothing special to mass shift into an alt mode. But the point was the rest of the Dragon was made from pre-existing zoanoids. Why was there an energy/mass limit for him? Zoalords seem to mass shift the same amount as any other zoanoid, and even they can't regenerate without a processing tube. They have the same mass shifting 'wiring'.

I think we should look at the Chronos processing facilities. We have schematics for them. Do they have any really big energy generators? Not many of them do. If the zoanoids are infused with an energy source that they can convert into mass at will (to formshift, or whatever you want to call it), then the processing facility should have a major generator. And I mean MAJOR, as E=mcc requires a ton of energy. Then again, Chronos somehow is able to make gravity points as well. So we should question how they can make gravity points, in order to determine how easy/difficult it is to generate energy. I mean, NeoZectole can suck energy out of the environment.

I know we have some pre-existing theories, but taking a look at it all again, and reworking it all over again is a bit refreshing. Especially when we aren't fighting each other over it.

I"m still incredibly curious about the 'wiring' difference between standard zoanoids and the enzyme 3. The best I can come up with is that the mass shifting system is separate from the regular functions of the body. That normally it is using an energy system that the rest of the body doesn't have access to. As if the mass shifting is an add on? By add on, I mean it would have to be something that is separate in the DNA, something implanted into humanity at an early state. It would have to be something that can exist within us through the generations in order for werewolf myths to exist, so it had to be implanted into us pretty early. Yet somehow its still a separate system that Balcus and Heckering are just now tampering with. At least, that's what I'm getting. That's the best excuse I can come up with for why there is that limitation for mass shifting and regeneration.

[*Kenji Murakami]

I think it was stated in the datafiles, if not in the Manga itself, that the only thing separating an Enzyme III or a Libertus from any normal Zoanoid was their highly accelerated metabolism. That's what makes them capable of regeneration, and also what makes them so short-lived.

[*zeo]

Yes, though their capacity had its limits. One Enzyme for example lost an Arm and never regenerated it, leaving only the chest area to seem to constantly regenerate but most of that could have been just advance wound handling. The Libertus at least showed they needed to get energy from Griselda before they rapidly regenerated.

Their shortened life span and need to be placed in Bio-Tubes to stabilize them would indicate they use up a lot of energy and they definitely have limits. So they don't violate conservation of energy, though if my theory is correct it means they assimulate a lot of the energy from the transformation and waste little to none of it.

The regulation I think can be attributed to how efficiently they can deal with the energy.

Like my Diving Analogy, the one who waste a lot of the energy uses very little of it while those that don't waste the energy use most of it.

So regular zoanoids only draw enough for transformation and nothing more, while the more powerful zoaforms are more efficient and thus assimulate more of that energy into their battle form.

The reason the power is limited in my theory is because the Bio-Boost only last for like a single second, at least without a Gravity Contol Orb or Power Amps to provide a continuous siphon.

Something like Khan was probably an upper limit, wasn't his brain like around half a ton?

While something like Waferdanos would have even more since he compressed existing mass, so it was more of it returning to its natural state versus drawing it from the Boost Dimension.

so what about more types of potential energy?

There are plenty to choose from, I only prefer the Bio-Boost theory because it is already provided in the story.

Other outside options include...

1) Zero Point Energy - Like the ZPM's on Stargate.

2) Gravitational - Drawing power from the gravitational fields of both the Earth and the Sun.

3) EMS - Drawing Energy from the Electromagnetic field and/or from something like the Earth's EM field.

4) Matter Conversion - Drawing from the Atmosphere for the energy/matter needed. Kinda like the Ang Lee Incredible Hulk Movie.

5) Neutrinos - Converting this almost massless partical could yield the required power since literally billions of these particles pass through us every day.

6) A White Hole - Exact opposite to a black hole, probably impossible but is an alternative.

7) Chi - Universal life force if it exists could be tapped to the needed energy.

And then there is the other souces but most of them delve into higher dimensions are complex multi-dimensional dimensional physics.

[*Jess♥]

you know what... I am liking the chi idea. the reasn is because of how the zoanoids were depicted in the tv series.

it seemed to suggest some chi style energy the first time test type transformed. that was my feeling on it.

anyway... I am now thinking I want to reject the idea of using the bio-boost mechanic.

my reasoning for this? well it's quite simple. the libertus need to go into a biotube to recharge. if tehy could get a boost from hte boost dimension when transforming, they wouldn't need any kind of prior charge, they would get an enormous boost each time and they could actually just turn back to human and change again, getting a lirttle bit more each time.

it's actually said somewhere.. i think... that normal zoanoids generate their required energy from eating and that the libertus and enzymeIII only need to go into hte biotube because of their high metabolism. they go in there to recharge. so why would they do that if they could siphon energy from some other dimension.

no i don't feel it makes sense at this point.

it seems to be in my feeling that when they are put into hte biotube, it is like a clockwork toy being wound up.

an interesting thought.

heres a science request here .

does a wound up spring have more mass that a spring in a resting state?

[*zeo]

metabolism. they go in there to recharge. so why would they do that if they could siphon energy from some other dimension.

no i don't feel it makes sense at this point.

They aren't Guyvers, thus they can't get a continuous flow of energy. The energy flow is only during transformation and practically all of that goes into giving them the extra mass. They will still have to provide energy to trigger the process and to fight.

To make this clear to increase mass as much as zoanoids do you would need the equivalent of a series of a nuclear bombs going off every second and having every erg of energy they released turned into mass. The energy requirements are too incredible to explain without an external source.

For example, let's say a Gregole can increase it's mass by 45 kg, this equals 966.63 megatons of TNT worth of energy or just short of a Giga Ton.

To compare I calculated the Guyver Mega Smasher to emit about 10 kilo tons of TNT worth of energy, meaning to transform a standard zoanoid would take about 10,000 Mega Smashers worth of energy.

While Derzerb is about 250 pounds heavier than his human form, translating to 2.4359e+3 megatons of TNT worth of energy.

But these energy estimates are just for the increased mass alone, additional energy still is required for the transformation of human into zoaform.

Now you may disagree with the source I've suggest but they still need an external energy explaination...

it seems to be in my feeling that when they are put into hte biotube, it is like a clockwork toy being wound up.

an interesting thought.

heres a science request here .

does a wound up spring have more mass that a spring in a resting state?

Technically, in terms of absolutes of measuring every single electron, yes even though the amount of energy involved is too small to properly measure and thus its effect is extremely minute.

It'll just take a lot of energy to noticeably increase its mass. But a normal Spring can never store enough energy to noticeable effect its mass.

This also goes with what YoungGuyver pointed out, if Chronos was charging their zoanoids they would need incredibly powerful power generators to provide enough energy for all their zoanoids. But we don't see this anywhere.

So I disagree that the Libertus are somehow an exception, they just draw more from their life energy but that comes at the price of shortening their life.

But other beings like Zoalords can live practically forever and demonstrate even more incredible energy levels.

So when done properly the Bio-Boost theory explains everything, allowing zoanoids to sustain themselves via normal food but still have the incredible energy needed to transform in an instant.

The Libertus and the Enzyme III's just sacrifice some of their life energy for additional power but at an extreme cost.

For an Analogy, it's like putting nitro in you car engine. It provides a big boost in engine power but uses up the gas faster and shortens the life of the engine.

But it doesn't mean you get more milelage from the boost or that you are using an alternate fuel, you're just enhancing what you got and using it up faster for a boost.

[Jukai]

White Holes violate the laws of thermodynamics and Chi doesn't exist in any form of science. If we can't break the law of conservation of energy, then let's not start throwing out impossibles here. It would hurt mah feelins!

Not exactly sure what "Matter Conversion" is, nor what there is to draw from the atmosphere, but Zero Point Energy is what the Hulk uses in the comic book (albeit a little differently, since Marvel comics says the quantum vacuum is filled with psionic energy). The Hulk is pretty much the closest thing to a Zoanoid we ca think of, I guess.

edit: actually, I'm in a huge disagreement with the bio-boost dimension thing. My reasonings:

a) Exactly what is opening the dimensional rift? Unless you can think of a sweet, new, energy free way to open up rifts in the space/time continuum, this is pretty much an impossibility. The Guyver unit and the human are in constant communication and the Guyver unit comes to the human, not the human opening up a rift for the Guyver unit. Unless there is something in bio-boost space for every single Zoanoid that will open up the dimensional rift for them, there's no way they can GET this energy

b) why in the world would the Creators create beings that would only tap into the bio-boost dimension to transform? If they could create something that could tap into the bio-boost dimension, then every single Zoanoid could generate blasts that could rival the mega-smasher. They're too weak for me to consider this.

c) why WOULD the liberatus need to go to recharge in a processing tube? No, really, if the transformation energy comes from another realm, why do they need to recharge themselves? You could get unlimited energy from the bio-boost realm, enough to transform them and give them enough energy for the rest of their lives.

Also, do you think the Zoalords are in constant contact with the bio-boost dimension? I didn't get what you meant from the Zoalord statement.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Jukai

[Super Existence]

The Guyver uses the Gravity orb to siphon energy from the booost dimension which implicates that it uses gravity to accomplish this. Normal zoanoids don't have gravity abilites. It would surely mean that each cell of a zoanoid has gravitational siphoning abilites.

But also in the Viz translation of the comics Chronos were doing a large debreifing where they show the majority of chronos and some of the zoalords what the Guyver is capable of. When the mega smasher fired the text from the scientists was...

'No way!'

'What happens to the law of conservation of energy?'

'It's...it's as if it recreates in miniature...the big bang!'

If the translation is accurate we do have an example of that law being broken in Guyver universe.

[*Jess♥]

me too. I am finding that it does not hold much ground. the bio-boosting parasite is special. that much has been made clear. that's why aptom - fak Guyver was noting anywhere near as good as guyver.

also, if the Creators wanted to have the cells of a human access to hte boost dimension, why not allow them, to continually draw from that power source?

anyhow..

I have a problem with trying to say you would need a couple of hundred nuclear explosions to get that energy.

well I'm sorry, but that mass can be gained without exploding nuclear bombs. we do it all the time.

we eat. we gain mass from our food. mass and energy being interchangeble, they would not need to get some energy from some strange alternate source, all they need to do is feed the combatants.

a nice sunday roast versus putting nuclear bombs inside the cells?

yeah i prefer that option.

we are looking for in this scenario.. a way to store this mass without it actually being mass.

we know it is limited so we know it is not a renewable source, it is stored energy/mass.

there are becoming many problems with htis idea that the cells bio-boost. it is a possibility, it's not impossible but it's is seeming illogical considering other things.

They aren't Guyvers, thus they can't get a continuous flow of energy. The energy flow is only during transformation and practically all of that goes into giving them the extra mass. They will still have to provide energy to trigger the process and to fight.

consider a zoanoid that does not get a lot of extra mass.

now compare to derzerb.

now what determines how much energy a zoanoid is 'ALLOWED' to gain from the boost dimension? if you can get enough energy to add derzerbs mass, then a gregole type zoanoid should have so much energy that he could probably do heat rays from his friggin eyes.

going along this train of thought.. it seems that part of the concocction process must have a challenge of changing the cells so that they can store enough material in some way to create the required zoaform. that is why derzerb is a hyper. so this could mean that the ability to effectively store that kind of mass/energy is part of the zoaform itself.

does this make sense?

if you don't gettit ask me to re-phrase.

[*Jess♥]

But also in the Viz translation of the comics Chronos were doing a large debreifing where they show the majority of chronos and some of the zoalords what the Guyver is capable of. When the mega smasher fired the text from the scientists was...

'No way!'

'What happens to the law of conservation of energy?'

'It's...it's as if it recreates in miniature...the big bang!'

If the translation is accurate we do have an example of that law being broken in Guyver universe.

thanks dude, good thinking

and jukai, it seems we both made the same point in our posts after you edited.

[*zeo]

Aside from the fact Viz translations have been in dispute for over a decade, I think it should be obvious to remember that was before they knew the Guyver Siphoned energy from the Boost Dimension.

Chronos was going under the erroneous assumption that the Guyver's power came from the host. But really the host is infused with energy, which is why they totally underestimated the Guyver.

They were also exaggerating the power of the Mega Smashers, which they had no idea how it worked back then.

@Jukai - White Holes don't violate Thermodynamics, the theory was that they are like wormholes linking to black holes. The problem with them was that both the black hole and white hole had to be identical and any change would cause a collapse, which is why we ultimately ruled them out as too unstable to actually exist but they are still a possibility when dealing with wormhole methods of power generation.

Chi - hasn't been disproved and some cultures, like Japan's, consider it real. Takaya is Japanese so this has to be taken into account when considering what he may be using in the Manga.

As to what an organism could use to breach dimensions, bio-energy fields!

Really, if the brain can set up a quantum field to allow it to function like a quantum computer then it isn't a stretch to include dimensional manipulation. It, just like fusion, would require a sufficient input energy to then get the resulting output energy.

On a quantum scale many things are possible, I think your assuming this has to happen on the Macro scale when it really has to happen inside the very molecules of the body.

M-Theory has already suggested that on certain levels the Electromagnetic Force is interchangeable with Gravity, which would also explain the Gigantic's Barrier shield btw, since it is powered by Gravity but produces an EM field.

@Ryuki - It should be remembered that the Bio-Boosted Organism was also nowhere near the equal of a Guyver either. It had none of the Guyver Weapons and if anything only demonstrated Guyver level strength when it pinned G1's arms.

Also the organism still demonstrated the need to hunt, indicating it doesn't use the Bio-Boost continuously and may still have needed to eat.

The Creators had access to the organism for a very long time, most likely longer than they had been on Earth if they never left since they landed. So they would of course know how the organism accomplished the Bio-Boost.

The Unit does enhance the effect with the Gravity Control Orb continuous siphoning, but that also suggests the Organism could not do so on its own as otherwise why create a device to perform that function?

I think the point that the Bio-Boost effect only lasts for a single second should not be overlooked. And my Diving Analogy clearly indicated that I did not think the same amount of energy could be drawn by each zoaform. So I'm confused as to why it is being suggested otherwise?

As I see it, if a Gregole can only assimilate a fraction of the energy provided by a Bio-Boost then it is only going to demonstrate a fraction of that power.

Efficiency being the key, it doesn't matter how much energy the Bio-Boost provides if you only absorb a fraction of that energy.

And the whole point of pointing out the energy requirements of increasing mass was because we do not see zoanoids eating or absorbing mass to transform.

We all know eating would solve the problem but the point of the theory is to explain how it happens without eating, since we don't see the Zoanoids eating or otherwise assimilating matter.

So the numbers represent just how much raw energy it takes to equal a given amount of mass and to show it is impossible for normal energy storage methods to provide this level of energy.

Also it should be remembered, just to make the point clear, Matter is Energy, just in a solid form. For technology that can manipulate dimensions it becomes possible to create matter from energy as well as matter into energy.

As to why they can't draw continuously, I thought I made that part of my theory clear when I said the natural barriers between dimensions would make such a dimensional coupling temporary. Even the Guyver requires the Gravity Control Orb and the Power Amps for a continuous energy siphon.

To me that seems clear that the Bio-Boost is not a continuous energy source if the Guyver requires devices to augment its ability to draw energy from the Boost Dimension, or am I crazy?

[Jukai]

White holes violate the second law of thermodynamics. The theory is that they may exist in other universes where the law does't apply. But to my knowledge, the equations that proved of white holes existances were flawed in themselves, and white holes were disproven. Even still, how can you syphon energy from something that doesn't exist in this universe?

And Chi hasn't been disproven because there's nothing to disprove. It's like me telling you to disprove Leprochans. You can't, Leprochans and Chi doesn't exist. If I can't simply say that a Zoanoid's existance violates the Law of Conservation of Energy, Chi must be excluded.

Also, it's important to note that Quantum Brain Dynamics is very theoretical and the majority of scientists don't believe in it, at least in the early stages it has been presented in. Regardless, using quantum field theory to explain human consciousness is a huge leap from explaining how cells are able to open up a portal to the bio-boost dimension and draw energy from it to mutate. I don't even see a parallel, but that might be because I know little about Quantum Mechanics.

Also, your barrier theory doesn't work. It explains why Zoanoids can't draw energy continuously, but not why they can't do it constantly. Is there a time limit for when they can and can't access the dimension? Is there something limiting how much energy they are drawing? They have to access it everytime they transform (and assumingly, they have to empty that energy back into the bio-boost dimension since energy can't just vanish) so accessing it multiple times seems to be no problem... why can't they draw MORE power from it?

The theory isn't any worse than any other theory we've delved into (that is to say they're all full of holes) but from a completely non-scientific standpoint, I don't think Zoanoids use energy from the bio-boost dimension. It would have been stated already by either Balcus or Alcanphel. I would be in absolute shock if Balcus can create viruses that can counteract Aptom or acid that can burn through the Guyver unit... but can't figure out how Zoanoids actually work. That fact, that all the superbeings in the story are tied together, is a very important fact, and if Takaya really wanted to work things this way, not only would it have been stated beforehand, but I think the bio-boost dimension would play a more pivotal role in the story since it would then be the force that ties everything in the story together.

I'm leaning towards Zero Point Energy, since that has been the common 'cop-out free-energy" device that must Science Fiction stories use.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Jukai

[*Jess♥]

Aside from the fact Viz translations have been in dispute for over a decade, I think it should be obvious to remember that was before they knew the Guyver Siphoned energy from the Boost Dimension.

Chronos was going under the erroneous assumption that the Guyver's power came from the host. But really the host is infused with energy, which is why they totally underestimated the Guyver.

They were also exaggerating the power of the Mega Smashers, which they had no idea how it worked back then.

zeo please don't say things like this. it seems you have based this on nothing. from what i remember it says nothing of what chronos knows of the Guyver in the manga. this is not something that can be easily stated. please do not make outrageous comments like this, if you need to show chronos' level of knowledge on a subject, please cite from hte source and then expand on your interpretation of it.

@Ryuki - It should be remembered that the Bio-Boosted Organism was also nowhere near the equal of a Guyver either. It had none of the Guyver Weapons and if anything only demonstrated Guyver level strength when it pinned G1's arms.

Also the organism still demonstrated the need to hunt, indicating it doesn't use the Bio-Boost continuously and may still have needed to eat.

you need to be careful when generalising. the bio-boost creature did not show any need to hunt, the behaviour of it was unclear. the only clear behaviour was seeking to join with the guyver. we did not see it attack anybody (there was plenty of opportunity with kids around) al we saw was it transform 2 times when confronted. this may be a defence mechanism to scare off a potential threat.

The Creators had access to the organism for a very long time, most likely longer than they had been on Earth if they never left since they landed. So they would of course know how the organism accomplished the Bio-Boost.

once more you are assuming things and stating them like fact. this is an aggressive thing to do and is disrespectful to yoshiki takaya. stop doing it.

the Creators had the guyvers. nobody knows how they got the guyvers. there is no evidence that the Creators had any idea how the Guyver worked.

The Unit does enhance the effect with the Gravity Control Orb continuous siphoning, but that also suggests the Organism could not do so on its own as otherwise why create a device to perform that function?

a fair question, but with a little more thought you would arrive at the simple answer of efficiency. it's really not too much of a stretch to find that conclusion. why you would omit that i have no idea and it seems you are simply missing out obvious stuff in order to support your theory because a) you LIKE it, or b) you just want to argue.

you are an intelligent guy, please act like it.

Efficiency being the key, it doesn't matter how much energy the Bio-Boost provides if you only absorb a fraction of that energy.

To me that seems clear that the Bio-Boost is not a continuous energy source if the Guyver requires devices to augment its ability to draw energy from the Boost Dimension, or am I crazy?

after all that, it seems your posts are growing in size, why is it that you wpost a whole lot more than any person here? i don't know, perhaps it's not really relevan,t but I should point out that while I am discussing in this debate i am still kepping an eye out that the guidelines are being respected. please take care when you post. and try not to post things that can cause a lot of upset like the things I have pointed out.

you need to be careful not to post things like that because once posted, the damage is already done.

remember that nothing is in concrete if it is not in hte manga, try to keep your assumptions off hte playing field when going into nitty gritty.

if you feel yourself coming up with aan assumption, check the Manga first and use a citation instead of a generalisation that may or may not be true. if you really can't be bother to check the Manga then at least rephrase it so that it appears like your own assumption or idea.

[Super Existence]

Aside from the fact Viz translations have been in dispute for over a decade, I think it should be obvious to remember that was before they knew the Guyver Siphoned energy from the Boost Dimension.

Chronos was going under the erroneous assumption that the Guyver's power came from the host. But really the host is infused with energy, which is why they totally underestimated the Guyver.

They were also exaggerating the power of the Mega Smashers, which they had no idea how it worked back then.

It has never said anywhere that between the debriefing episode I mentioned and now that the Guyvers functions were further understood by cronos.

They never exaggerated the megsmashers power and then changed their minds later on.

Agito first mentioned the boost dimension and as he had access to Cronos knowledge this would have come from their tests on G2 from way back.

Cronos would have known about this from very early on.

I think if anything Cronos 's understanding of the unit-G has advanced very little since G2's tests and any new information comes from the Guver showing a new battle or survival ability.