YoungGuyver

I agree with Zeo on this. I think that the sensors can detect the air molecules. Though I think this is backed up from the manga. When Sho and Hayami made the raid to rescue Aptom, and Sho thought he sensed the invisible zoanoid, he said he sensed it due to the gap in the air. He sensed it because he was sensing the air. It to me suggest that sensing the air itself can tie into auditory sensation. Roundabout, but whatever. It acts as a tidbit of evidence. Especially since Sho had no reason to go out of his way to scan for anything. If it was already passively scanning as a part of 'hearing' things, it can show how he would have picked it up.

Sorry, I had missed the second page when I replied. Just finished reading it. But still, I think you are REALLY putting too much into the perceptions argument when talking about free will. I made my post because people on the first page (and later the second page after I read it) had mentioned the free will as if it were an iron clad rule. Um, no. Modern philosophy dictates that free will is important. But from the religious standpoint, the new testament adds to the old, and we must also consider what is included in the old. sigh Which is what I was saying. That free will can and does get over ridden. I did not say that it does not exist, but was arguing that it is not the end all be all. And to address Ryuki. If the tree of knowledge was put in there to manipulate us into eating from it, why were we punished for it? Why was the snake punished for convincing us to eat from it? To add a few things, you said some things that I don't see supported Zeo. For instance, you said that Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden for hundreds of years before being kicked out. How is that supported? It is not written in the bible at all. What source could make that claim with any amount of credence? And it is true that the bible does point out that being in the direct presence of god can kill you, (as can being unclean). But the bible does make reference to various angels speaking on gods behalf, speaking as if they were god. So I am curious how you can say that Moses went with his instincts for most of everything to dictate to the masses what god was instructing. (Sorry, sifting through all this to directly quote you is really time consuming). There are also the stories of god walking among mortal men, and being visable to more than just his current favorite pet-such as visiting Abraham, and being visible by his wife at the same time. Under that logic, we might suggest that the bible is out dated, and that God needs to come out of the closet again and give us a new version that can not be questioned. As you yourself admitted, the new testament has been changed by the church to reflect their wishes. (was that you, someone pointed that out) It says hardening of the heart in several instances. His heart had been hardened after each plague, the death of the first born being last. You can argue that Pharaoh was doing it to himself, but the wording of the riddles in the bible are important to me. I can understand that in some case Pharaoh did it to himself, by why would god take the responsibility for himself in some of those instances? Yeah, I can really agree with that part. It's like when Yaweh is arguing with Moses, and points out to him that he speaks in riddles to everyone else, but plainly to Moses because he 'likes' or favors Moses. Interesting. It suggests that a good deal of the old testament is a riddle. The details of the riddle are interesting. Unfortunately, if you leave out certain words, or don't bother to understand what the context of the word was originally intended as, then the story is equally skewed. For instance, Eve isn't just a name of a character, is also means 'Life'. When they changed characters names, it was because they changed roles. Abram BECAME Abraham. The names like words had meaning. What, in all your arrogant assumption, makes you think I am using solely my modern sensibilities? I'm a bit offended at that. It sounds very condescending.

Ok, first, I'm not so sure that Jesus was real. We can only believe in Jesus on faith. We have no solid evidence that Jesus was a real person, let alone the son of god. When the bible was translated into Greek, the Greeks didn't understand a lot of things, and translated Messiah into the closest equivalent they had-Christus, which meant 'anointed one', which is a title that any god such as even Hurcules and Zeus could have. So three historians simply saying the word during the lifetime of Jesus doesn't count for me (especially since a real follower wouldn't call him a Christ at that point). Then we have Josephus, who mentioned Jesus twice-a paragraph in one version of a writing in which he describes Jesus' family, a brother, and his father Joseph, but with a different family name (stating that Joseph didn't come from Nazarene); and ironically there are two versions of this writing, the Russion version doesn't include the Jesus paragraph at all. In 'the war of the Jews' there was a single sentence amidst the the description of the war that took place before Jesus time. And the paragraph gets along just fine without that Jesus sentence, much better actually as Jesus there is off topic. And ironically, if Josephus actually did write about Jesus in the original versions of his works, you would think that the early Christians a hundred years later that were trying to prove he was real would have brought it up as evidence in some of their essays, but that didn't happen for another couple hundred years. Either way, the new testament has some good values in it. Kinda like Aesop's fables. Um, didn't he command us NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge? To quote from the bible: There was a rather BIG blurb before all that, where he punished the serpent for tricking the woman, and made the woman experience pain during child birth, and forced man to manual labor to survive. Eating from the tree of knowledge was called the first sin. This was its punishment. Are you implying that god wanted us to sin? I don't think free will has anything to do with it. Just take a look at Exodus. God said the he 'hardened the heart' of the Pharoh. God told Mosheh (Moses) to ask the Pharoh to free the Isrialites. God told Moses that he hardened the heart of the Pharoh to make the Pharoh say no. Then he cast a plague upon the Egyptions, the Pharoh begged Moses to make god relent, then God hardened his heart again to make him refuse to free the Isrialites. This repeated eight times. And then, at the parting of the reed sea, god hardened the hearts of the Pharoh and his soldiers to make them go in after them-at which point God killed them with the water. This doesn't sound like free will to me. This sounds like they were manipulated. That their will was manipulated. What was gods excuse? He said he wanted to world to see the Egyptians as fools. And this wasn't the last time he 'hardened the hearts' of people. He allowed Isreal to be conquered, and to let them win battles. But changing topics, then there is the part about god being omnipotent. I don't buy it. The old testament definitely points out that Yaweh is really powerful. No doubt about it. But it DOES NOT say he is omnipotent. It points out that he needed to rest on the seventh day after the creation of the universe. He was thwarted by Moses while attempting to inflict a plague on the unruly Isrealites in Exudos (Moses told his brother Aaron to make a sacrifice among the field of those being plagued, and the plague suddenly stopped), and God punished Aaron and Moses for this by forbidding them from entering their new land-both Aaron and Moses had successors. Honestly I doubt the morality of this version of god. Oh, I think he might be real, and definitely powerful. But also possibly mortal. But that's a whole other conversation. In the end, I think that little pic makes some very good points. It makes us question some of the mythology that has grown around Christianity and such over the last couple thousand years.

I'm sorry, that kind of sounded like the Roman Empire collapsed because of the values of same sex relationships. I know that wasn't what you were saying, but it skews the point that was being made originally. The point was that marriage is more than just the limited scope of men and women getting together to pop out babies. And it wasn't the gays that collapsed the Roman Empire. It was a few factors, such as corruption. The guilds had influenced law so much in order to maximize their profits that the economy was hit incredibly high with inflation and inefficiency(red tape and tariffs). The rich elite started buying positions of high rank in the military because it streamlined a good political career, but it meant that high ranking military officers lacked real skill, and they saw a military decline. Didn't help that every nation had to donate soldiers-so the foreigners were trained and saw the decline and knew that it was getting to be a good time to attack. Trade routes were easily hit by.... I'm digressing. Whole other topic, sorry. I don't think very many people that get married are blood relatives. But once they are married, it is usually considered a bond that makes them family. And yes, adopting children also brings them into the family, despite no blood ties. You brought up legal questions of inheritance. What do the already existing laws of adoption say regarding inheritance? The scenerio is already there. You say that same sex marriage would devalue marriage even further than it already has. Perhaps it was sexual equality that helped to increase the divorce rates. Women started fighting for their freedom, fighting back and not just obeying whatever a husband would tell them to do. Marriage wasn't as easy for men after that. No amount to same sex relationship is going to change that. If a marriage is going to work, Durendal's epic word 'Responsibility' must come into play. Along with other such words as 'honor, respect, honesty. Simply being a boy and a girl is not enough. In fact, in a modern realm of equality, it probably has very little bearing at all. Name one trait that a husband or father provides in a marriage, that a woman or mother can not provide. Be specific. Teach a child honesty? Integrity? Help with homework? Provide income for the family? Show the child how to tie their shoes, use a computer, or play soccer? I agree that marriage is an institution. I have no argument with you there. And yes, there are rules and conditions for that institution. You had the analogy of people entering the senate. You are right, not everyone can join the senate, they must gain the approval of the people. Not everyone can get married, you must find someone you are compatable with first. But you are restricting same esx relationships from marriage just as you would restrict black people from the senate.

Furthermore Zeo, you have claimed that polygamy doesn't count as true marriage. Um, it has been well counted as a form of marriage for thousands of years. Isreal (sp) had two wives, twelve sons, who went on to found Jewdasim and Christianity (Sorry, bible reference to show that marriage has already been that open, and not just the modern American view). So cultural definitions have already changed. And that's not counting the polygamist relationships across the world in modern times. But the thing that really gets me, is that Zeo is claiming that there is no way that same sex couples can relate to each other as a true family does. He is denying the possibility that same sex couples can depend on each other, support each other, or do anything with each other that married unions do. Do you think the human brain is that limited that it can not adapt to the differences/similarities of a partner? Perhaps YOU might not be capable of a same sex union, but don't place your mental constraints on others. Some of my friends are gay, and I have no problem with them getting serious in a relationship and making it permanent. If they can pull it off, they will have done far better than me or my own parents.

So by your definition Zeo, marriage is only marriage if you can make babies together? Not all couples in the bible could make babies together, yet they were married. (They had to ask god to bless them/cure them to change this-but they were still counted as married whether they had children or not) To me, marriage come from the word merger. To join together, to merge together. Those that are married usually take the role as the head of their branch of the family; that is, assuming they have children in some way shape or form. Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with gay marriage. But to me, living common law is the same as marriage, just so long as the two people together are seriously together, and not just doing it for convenience (mental state). I don't think you really need a sanction from an outside authority to dictate what you really are. But hey, some people are kinda pathetic that way, so I guess it takes all kinds of people

Your numbers only apply there if mass/matter is being generated with the methods that are known to modern science. Remember when science said that the atom bomb was impossible? When such things were merely science fiction? You don't like how the data files explained the gravity controller and its siphoning abilities, and have stated that because it is only given twice, that we should open it up for more. How many times do we here an explanation on the frequency swords? Should we argue those too? When the vdf did cover the gravity controller, it listed its functions in several areas. And when the vdf is being vague or approximate, it is pretty good as using the proper wording for being approximate. Again, with the frequency swords, it said their length was an 'approximate 1 meter'. But to me, I think the real part of this will come in with the parasite. It doesn't have a gravity controller. It either reverts to stored energy, a mechanism within its cells to tap boost dimension energy, or absorb matter from this universe when we weren't looking (we saw it grow without apparent absorption)

Man, in two debates at once. I'm already bored with the other debate I'm having with Zeo, but I'll get back to that one in a bit. Anyway: But the guyververse is applying trans dimensional technology to it. The tech specs make reference to the 'boost' dimension in order to explain how it works. String/M theory also states that the calabi-yau manifolds can change in different conditions, which will affect the way in which the sub dimensions are curled up in on themselves, which will change the masses of particles. I don't know about you, but having the forces of gravity, magnetism, and both nuclear forces as all one force kind of sounds like a different set of physics to me. Now we may be able to calculate how the physics in that state of a universe work, but gravity is a force of the universe on its own, according to the physics of our modern universe. And that's not even throwing in the violation of the law of conservation of energy of the big bang. Guyver is science fiction. Which means that we are seeing things based on science that might not exist yet. When Jules Verne wrote 'From the Earth to the Moon', and 'Around the Moon', did science fully support it? Did we have actual rockets at that time? It took until the 1960's to actually fire cannons as powerful as suggested. Science fiction doesn't just deal with science in the present, but also what science may develop into. So yes, based on science, but also allowing for a theory to develop further into something new. So when I pointed out that mass can be generated without the generation of anti-matter or many of the other hindrances, it should count as a valid point. You did remind us that technically energy is merely a number value that is transferred from medium to medium. Many of the Guyver's abilities have been gravity themed-energy being siphoned from an alternate dimension through a gravity controller. Momentum amplifiers that are powered by energy from the gravity controller. Energy compressors that form pressure canon 'black holes'. The gravity controller making a connection to the boost dimension to store and retrieve the armor with blast field results. I was originally thinking that the gravity controller disperses the energy from the boost dimension as a spherical gravity like field, along with bio-energy to make this work. Instead of any direct gravitational like particles coming across, perhaps the gravity controller simply bends space (think space time matrix depression) into something not quite a worm hole. Allowing the -transfer- of energy to certain particles that could be receptive, such as something weird about bioenergy. Basically like an inductor. A really weird inductor, that uses alternate dimensions, gravity controllers, and bioenergy as a part of its mythos, but an inductor none the less. (I really hate the bio energy part, but its a part of the franchise and mythos. It really muddles things up)

Unfortunately, alternate dimensions usually do have alternate laws of physics. Just changing the temperature of our universe changes the laws of physics, or at least the dimensional fabric (string theory). So a lot of what you said can become a mute point. and its really nice that you are learning -one- way of generating matter, but there can be others. Consider that matter and mass are related. If you generate mass, do you generate antimatter? No, not unless you are generating matter in the conventional way. What if you can generate mass in the same way that you 'increase' mass, thereby avoiding the antimatter problem? Sorry, I'm just looking at this from an engineering perspective.

Just a thought, but how much do we have o change before we can not be considered human anymore? How 'peek' is peek? In Guyver we call them zoanoids. In Exosquad we call them neo-sapiens. Would we come up with several new species, naming them after the company that designed the DNA? Dupont-sapien? Ultimately, I can see this coming sooner than we are ready for. I mean, we already have genetically modified food being forced on us. Any butter/margerine/whatever that we buy on the American continent is genetically engineered-its the canola oil. It's in the chocolate bars, a good portion of the cereal, breads (we've got a gm wheat field about 10 minutes away from where I sleep at night), and other produce. Let's not forget the gm tomatoes that we recalled, what was it, seven years ago, because too many people were getting sick? And they weren't even told they were engineered. I'm all for genetic engineering research. I think I stand with Zeo in the optimism for its advantages. But when you look at the METHOD of their scientific practices, its appalling. I would expect at least a decade for a single product-developed in a controlled green house. Instead, we've got fields and gardens with chain link and chicken wire fences. WTF? Sorry, I'm starting to rant. yeah, super humans. Yeah. I want blue hair. That way it'll match my eyes.

Aw man, I just tried finding a link to something that explains particle families. How different particle families are basically the same-same spin and such, but at different energy levels. Whatever. Maybe I'll find it later. I'm on the library computer for now (24 minutes I have left after reading that) Note: We have NO indication that the organism fuses with the bones and muscles. In fact, our translations say that the Guyver infuses them with power. That suggests that the organism is manipulating them, but not directly merging with them. We also know that the organism is increasing the amount of muscle and bone tissue, generating the material, just as it would generate a gravity controller. Thanks for working the math Ryuki

Ryuki, I think you and I are visualizing it the same way. You are saying that the energy is making the atoms bigger. What do you think I have been saying? I am merely trying to offer a method by which the energy works. I still can't get over the size of the worms brain. It fits onto a pin head, and yet has a long body. Then there is the head size of a baby human. Interesting, that if a human baby maintained the same proportion through adult hood, humans would have basketball sized heads. But the basics of what Zeo is saying holds merit

I was wondering though. The energy, or rather mass of the Exceed. I mean, Takaya just added 132 to each Guyver in order to give us a mass of each respective Gigantic. So I have a doubt that he's just pulling the number for the Exceed's mass out of thin air. There has to be some principle for it. Unless he's gotten a little lazy as a writer over the years. I'm wondering, if we are indeed on the right track with this energy thing, how would he have come up with a figure for energy/mass value? It would have to be pretty exact, wouldn't it? What if the point of interaction between the normal fabric of space, and the extended dimensions space is where the extra mass comes from? I mean, gravitons and radiation and everything travel through normal matter all the time. Mass from an object on one side of Earth is felt on the other-energy travels through matter. But if this dimensional extension theory is right, then the greater bulk of the body is simply energy imposing mathematical values to the locations and interactions on a rather small number of particles by comparison. Now, in my opinion, that energy should affect the resulting mass; but what if Takaya is considering the internal function of the Exceed as sacred ground... as in, the function of the energy that generates the exceed size shields the internal structure from outside energy/influences (allowing the Exceed to be impervious to 'most' attacks and such). That would suggest that if anything, the surface of the exceed might be where outside energy sources are most likely to affect the Exceed. The energy at the surface might be how the Exceed gets its extreme mass. We would need to calculate the surface area. A computer model would be the easiest way to do this. If we could take a Gigantic figure and scan it into a digital effects shops system, and get a computer model of the gigantic that way, we could easily get the computer to calculate the surface area for us. Then we could play around with numbers until we find an equation that matches the mass. Of course, there is always volume too. We simply have to take a known quantity of water, dip a Gigantic model inside, and calculate the volume of water that was displaced. Scale the numbers of course. Sorry, how Takaya came by those numbers is bugging me. Oh, and as an after thought, we might see the Exceed a little sooner than expected if the Ark ever starts acting up. I mean, the Exceed is space ship size, right? Or rather the Exceed is the size of the Relic, but the Ark is 52 times the size of the Relic. Everyone is thinking 'zoalord', but what if the Ark has a true battle form. We've already seen a few panels open up in order for it to do some weird things. It's an organic ship, it's already shown that it can morph to some extent. As a side note, I know I suggested Quantum entanglement, but I don't like to use quantum entanglement per say, because it involves particles sharing properties without a medium for communicating across the distance between them. I don't like that part of the theories early development, and I don't think that applies here either, as the Exceed is still using a considerable amount of energy to maintain the Exceed state. I myself think that the energy is the medium for communication between points at which the particles are co-existing. Well, particle in the plural form is a bit weak, as I believe that truly there is only the original particle of the Gigantic within the exceed, and that the energy is simply allowing the properties of each particle to exist in various places-as if in a greater size. sigh. To see it in your head is one thing. To say it in text is another.

I'm wondering though, with the quantum/dimensional size increase. The color scheme of the Exceed. I know that the colors change from Gigantic to gigantic Dark, but the regions of color are pretty much the same. They for the most part are the same on the Exceed too, but with a few minor exceptions. It is the exceptions that have me curious. We see more black spots. Now, on the Gigantic, we had black patches around the gravity controllers in the chest, his shoulder spikes, and a splash around his horn/head beam. These are all energy related devices. Could it be that these areas are energy related? That these areas are the same color because they have a material/component in them that allows them to deal with high energy? Of course, Gigantic Dark changes color scheme, but for the most part the theme holds true. He has a few extra highlights, which is what makes it curious, and kind of destroys the theory a little. Except that the Exceed has the extra highlights that Gigantic Dark has. So was Agito -trying- to unlock everything, and got those extra highlights to unlock? Was Sho holding back being the reason why he doesn't have all the highlights in his regular Gigantic mode? It's possible, but truly only a guess. But in any event, if the theory -were- to hold water, it would suggest that the extra black highlights on the Exceed are parts coming online to handle the extra energy. That the black abdominal plates were perhaps helping to control the Exceed size boost. Anything with extra black on it, really. Just a thought. A flimsy thought, but at least a morsel to go on until/if Takaya ever decides to explain any of this with a more in depth data file.

So there was no real energy release in any form as it shrunk? No major explosive light show? huh. Ok. Well, I guess that's descriptive. I'll continue with the dimension increase theory then. Thanks.

Man that was a lot of reading. I agree with Zeo on a few points. The Gigantic has to be able to go into the exceed mode from the start of it's design process. This shouldn't be a mutation, but rather a never before seen ability. Though I will offer a reason for why I say this. When Sho was originally in the Chrysalis, he 'dreamed' of the power he wanted to protect his friends, and he dreamed of the Gigantic. We were shown a pic of his dream, and it showed the outline of the Gigantic/Exceed as it was holding his friends. For me, this suggests the Gigantic has always been capable of going into Exceed mode. The Gigantic/Exceed is pretty detailed. It has a whole lot more than a covering of skin to hide the internal structure. If the internal structure -were- changing in order to support the form, I might expect more changes on the surface of the body, such as extra heat vents to deal with all the heat generated from the extra cells. But I'm not seeing it. No, I don't think the Exceed is a hologram. I just think the effects of each atom/particle are being conveyed over a greater distance. Maybe quantum entanglement is a better word to use. But even entanglement is the wrong word, as it suggests teleportation, while I am suggesting that the energy in the Exceed is linking the atoms together over a greater distance. And when I say atoms, I'm being subjective. It could be the very particles that are linked by the energy, or the molecules. We don't have the exact point on the size scale to say for sure. Though maybe with more logic thrown in we could pinpoint it. I'm very tired though, and lazy. I'm curious, what did the Exceed look like when it shrank back down to Gigantic size?

Ok, this is really making it look a lot more like a dimensional shift. Look at the thermodynamics! It's constantly siphoning energy in order to maintain the form? If it were a regular mass increase, you know, siphon energy in order to provide material for the cells the grow and divide, then there would be no reason to continue to siphon energy except to power the weapons. That is the key here, the biggest hurdle. Those 2000 whatever tons are not the mass of the gigantic, they are the mass of the energy that is being used to support the exceed mode. That's a lot of energy. This is amazing. The Relic could open a dimensional gateway into the boost dimension and supposedly travel across the universe. The Gigantic can bend the dimensions of its own atoms and extend its scale within the very universe it stands. Another way of looking at it: In one version of string theory, the dimensions are all strings. Each string is a track that a particle (I'm simplifying) can ride along. There are strings to go left, right, up, down, and tiny little curled up balls, all uniformly spread out to make out the fabric of space. Now particles exist within a tiny area, in a limited space. Then comes along the exceed, and it allows a particle to not just exist on one point in the strings, but technically dozens at the same time. That's an interesting quantum principle. Possibly modifying the quantum states in a uniform and controlled manner? Personally, I don't like the visualization of quantum and string theory. No problems with the math, but the model itself seems a bit off. I'd like to remodel this theory. But the point is, the energy there is being used to support the size. It DOESN'T look like cellular division. It looks like dimension shift. Hmm, so Takaya's pressure canons are different? Ok. I'll argue the possibilities of that later maybe.

I need to see the manga, but what is the problem about the gigantic using the thrusters to fly up? It's done that before, or at least used them for flight anyway. And as I said, given as I described, the pressure canon wouldn't really be affected. Because-> If gravity is at the very least a little transdimensional, then when the energy compressors in the wrist start to fold the energy within the space, any energy in the surrounding space would be caught in the gravitational pattern. Akin to the small pressure canon of the regular guyver, or the large artificial black hole of Imakarum. So long as the pattern can be created, a gravity distortion of a particular type can be created. Akin to large black holes and miniature black holes. Size is not the issue, but density, or in this case, artificial gravity pattern of folded space. I can think of several ways for a particle to shift size. But I have a question, does it look like the Exceed is always running an energy task? Are the gravity controllers always turned on? Or are the energy amps of the gigantic always turned on? Like glowing or something? That would be an indicator that they are running an energy function, that the energy that the Gigantic siphoned in order to go Exceed didn't just create more mass. That would be an indicator that the energy is still in a (by comparison) raw state, and is being used to maintain the Exceed mode. Of course, you guys have been flipping through the pages more than I have, so you can check the artwork and argue if the gravity controllers or energy amps are glowing or not. If not, my idea might not have merit after all.

Finally I am back into this! Yes, it feels good. Anyway, I need to go back for the last few volumes, but just reading this, the mass and height being off, it sounds like the Gigantic isn't really growing. I mean, growing yes from one perspective. But what if the Gigantic Exceed is doing some sort of dimension shift. You know, bending the dimensions around in order to be larger within our dimension. No new cells being generated, but a single cell taking up that much more space. There are a few ways in which the energy could propagate itself within such a system. That might explain why the control metal also appears larger-the same control metal, but being seen through a dimensional magnifying glass. The energy within the Exceed as that magnifying glass. I want to see how the Exceeds Gigasmashers work. I want to see the damage, how much is truly done, and to what extend. I mean, I can believe that the energy compressor in the wrist can compress the natural energy of the surrounding environment into a pressure canon, but I'm still curious about the energy collection of the Gigasmasher. Still, the Exceed stores energy within the body, but it's one place to look for evidence.

Wow. Somebody actually built their own Batmobile http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=308526 I just love the impact his movie has had in the world. I think this video sums it up best:

From the last few seconds of the previous season, weren't they trying to use proto type Gundams to continue on? Wouldn't it make sense then that the Gundam's wouldn't be as complex? Maybe the simplified designs are a part of the plot in that regard, and not just a marketing ploy. Which is really different, that the series is challenging the marketing campaign, and finding imaginative ways in the story to come up with new toys to sell. I mean, the 'new more advanced mech that appears from nowhere' plot tool has been done to death. Trying to improve outdated tech and make it more advanced is now more interesting.

It was a problem for the Joker to provide two explanations for why he had a scar grin? Note: Joker is a psychopath. He lies constantly. He wasn't interested in having a heart felt moment with anyone, he was just freaking them out. He looked into their souls, and found the one thing that would scare them the most. The mob boss was a man in control-Joker said that he reminded him of his father, an authority figure that abused him. Rachael was a woman that was in a relationship with the man Joker was hunting-he said he carved his own scars for his lover... he related the injury to them on a psychological level, and did it to freak them out. Psychotics analyze people, and are excellent masterminds. They manipulate People very well, and lie even better. Why is Penguin unrealistic to do? He's not a mutant or anything. It was the Tim Burton version that turned him into a freak. Before that, he was pretty normal. The one thing that I don't like about this movie is that the train system from the first movie seems to have disappeared. Other than that, it's perfect. Though we did have the cops in the car chase mention how they were underground at one point; I just thought they were driving through a tunnel. At least some things stayed the same. I guess they can't cover all of Gotham in every movie.

Well, the joker is now in Arkam. And we know that he does mess with the mind of his psychiatrist. So there is always that. We still have Cat woman. The cat burglar who doesn't mind handing over any crook who gets in her way, and has a wonderful love affair with Batman. Penguin, the aristocrat that continues to commit crime in order to expand his wealth-somewhat a mob mentality. He could take a break from super villains and tackle real crime, like in a few of the novels. Maybe challenge pedophiles. Tackle street crime. Or perhaps try to do something about People that beat other People up just so they can put it on youtube. That's an interesting level of crime.

Batman begins could have had more detective parts, true. But it did have Bruce Wayne dress as a hobo when he first arrived in Gotham, and start to map out which lawyers and politicians were dirty. He was also scaling building with his x-ray tool to actually search for drugs and such. Doesn't that count as detective grunt work?

I still love Batman Begins. And as modern as the environment was, they still let Batman hide in the background. I mean, take the highway, a modern highway, and the batmobile faded into the shadows. Take the scene where Scarecrow goes into the apartment to burn it down. Batman was standing in the background, and nobody noticed because he was in shadows. Or the dock scene, where for 3/4 of it, nobody could find the batman, he was intentionally freaking them out by again, hiding in the shadows and whatnot. THIS is batman. This is the way he fights, and how it should be filmed. I think the only thing the drugs really did in the first film, was possibly explain why so many People would do something stupid, like take up a secret identity to be a super villain. But thats just me. That, and help People spread rumors about him. Help make him an urban legend.