Interaction between The BIO Armour Guyver and Sho + other Life forms

[Aether]

Theres been a discussion on xmen and the Guyver suit and how they would/could interact.... its made me think about how the Guyver actually interacts with the human body...

Seeing as the Guyver is a 'human body instant remodelling system' that means that it 'remodels' or restructures the human body fundamentally at a cellular level, we know this in that it restructures the DNA to strengthen the muscles, bones, heart and eyes... it also interacts with the human body by degenerating the lungs and other internal organs.

i didnt realise that the Guyver totally restructered Shos body... so does that mean the only thing that remains of Sho when he bioboosts are his brain, degenerated organs and enhanced bones,muscles,heart and eyes? thats got to feel real weird! ''its growing inside of me!'' i recall he says on the oav's english intro.

what happens to Shos skin? does the armour become shos skin?

Also what happens to the Guyvers body when it goes inside the Gigantic? is it like an exo skeleton where it matches shos movements inside because its surrounding him? or does the Guyver interact with the Gigantic like the Guyver unit interacts with Shos human body? eg it 'remodels' the Guyver to the Gigatic preportions...which means Sho actually grows to 9ft!

i also wonder what the Creators physical form was like? were they a bipedal humanoid race, or were they mamillian or insectoid?

if they were humanoid that would explain the Guyvers appearance ie it looks like a human but like a Guyver - if that makes sense! and that would mean that it was only a mental factor that triggered the powers of the Guyver to be so efficent in a humans hands- or in its body! and not some sort of exact physical compatibility that allowed such a strong symbiosis between Guyver and humans.

if the Creators were a different kind of race does that mean that it would boost around any form? e.g an alien that looked like a giant spider ...would the Guyver boost around it and take the arachnid spider form? or would it remodel it to be a human bipedal form and just look the same as on a human?????? i dont have a clue just thought id through it out there

i cant comment on whatevers happened to the suit more recently cause im stuck on book 22...(anyone give me a link to the translation please?)

anyway anyone got any ideas on the thoughts above?

[*zeo]

The Guyver appears humanoid because the host is human. The Unit basically assimulates the host and produces a hyrbid life form of itself and the host, which is then Bio-Boosted.

We were never shown the Creators so we can only guess about them but from what we know about the Units it can technically bond to any biological life form imagineable. So long as it has a brain for the CM to link to.

So the Unit and host become a combined new life form, a literal merger.

The skin, like the cloths, probably gets absorbed by the armor. So you can say the armor is the skin, just like the Guyver eyes are eyes since it merges right into the nervous system just like our normal eyes do.

The Gigantic is based on the same technology so when the Gigantic is activated the host/Guyver is merged with the Gigantic just like the host is with the Unit.

For example, you can look at scenes in which the Gigantic is damaged and you won't see any distinction of where the host/Guyver ends and that Gigantic begins. So the Guyver literally becomes the Gigantic, even the Guyver CM shows this as it extends out and forms the top two segments while the Gigantic provides the third that combined makes up the Gigantic CM.

[*YoungGuyver]

Seeing as the Guyver is a 'human body instant remodelling system' that means that it 'remodels' or restructures the human body fundamentally at a cellular level, we know this in that it restructures the DNA to strengthen the muscles, bones, heart and eyes... it also interacts with the human body by degenerating the lungs and other internal organs

Restructures it on a cellular level? We know that it restructure DNA? Where did that come from?

Sorry, but no. We know that the control metal prevents the armor from absorbing the host DNA (dvd booklet). The control metal holds the parasite back. We DO know that the armor 'infuses the cells with POWER'. But define power. That might meen energy, that might meen a form of energy such as integrity field or inertial field. Or it might simply be an electrical stimulous accelerant, which would amplify the reactions in the muscle protein. That part is open to interpretation.

The Guyver is probebly more like a Frankenstein. A very well made, all powerfull Frankenstein. Only without the sutures (spelling?). Don't get me wrong, we do know the armor will manipulate cellular tissue in certain instances (such as generating more muscle tissue for the host).

In the end, it really wouldn't make sense to genetically modify the host. So much of the Guyver already comes from the armor. Why bother keeping the host around at all if you have to go any further? You might as well just generate it from scratch.

[Aether]

Zeo -

So it could literally bond to anything with a brain and the outcome would be random as to wether it was super powerful like the guver/human hybrid or moderately more powerful like the creators/ Guyver hybrid...o.k - chaos!

I think i agree with you in that the Guyver grows into the gigantic but just how does the transition happen? i cant recall seeing a detailed scene where we see the actual progress of the process happen , it just appears behind the Guyver then we get close ups of the arms, legs head etc then the finished product.

seeing as the Gigantic armour appears formed at the scale of the Gigantic theres would have to be a point where it attaches ... this could happen either by

1. the host 'growing' or assimilating into it, but for this to happen the Gigantic would really have to come out the same size as the Guyver for the parts to fit, then grow to 9ft.

or 2. that the Guyver starts to grow simultaneously as the armour attaches, other wise the pre formed body plates wouldnt fit? ....It would be interesting to see it animated form one wide angle, to see what happens.

Young Guyver - i think when it says that the control medal prevents the armor from absorbing the host DNA it means that the Guyver doesnt just let the parasite turn the host to DNA glop like Guyver 2 did to Ozward a Risker.

''Restructures it on a cellular level? We know that it restructure DNA? Where did that come from?''

How else do you think it restructures the internal organs? its not just by giving them more 'power', if the dna didnt change then neither would the proteins that make up the structure of the internal organs...weve established that it does these things from the VDF, i would call having my lungs shrunk to make way for a megasmasher organ, internal organs shrunk, and a new respiratory organ created being genetically modified/ restructured/ changed, wouldnt you?

i could be wrong that the bones and muscles arent modified only amplified the VDF says ''the bones and muscles are greatly enhanced by bonding with the bio- boost organism''so thats not too precise. it does say that the legs and arms are enhanced by the gravity controlled amplifiers, though it also says that the grappling is unmatched by zoanoids... this may mean that the pressure exerted on the Guyver by its attacker doesnt even effect the host because the gravity controller nullifies the force as it is exerted? if it isnt that then the bones and muscles would need to be enhanced to take such pressure on them otherwise the Guyver host's leg and arms would just snap!

As for the POWER yes it probably wouldnt need to change the DNA for the cells to just hold more energy...i think the power would just be extra electrical energy charge stored by the cells that is then used for the body structure inside seeing as there is no fuel from food etc and also by the weapons as needed.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Eether

[*YoungGuyver]

If the armor is generating a lung, why would the human DNA have to be tinkered with? The lung is a part of the armor. It is performing a function that serves the host, but it is generated by the armor. Like an organ donor, but superior and without rejection issues.

Why does the DNA have to be tinkered with in order to regress the origional lungs? When I squish a grape, does its DNA change? It's theoretically possible to manipulate organs without genetically engineering them.

So the DNA is changed to store more energy? Would that be the mitochondrial DNA, or the nucleaic? Does the DNA change when a virus enters the cell (aside from what the virus is trying to do-destroy the cell for reproduction). Lots of things can enter the cell without the DNA factoring into it. Such as the element that you are trying to insert into the cell to manipulate the DNA in the first place

sigh.

The unit-g kind of looked like a slime monster when it first bonded to Sho, Lisker, and Valcuria. That suggests that yes, it can bond to any form. But at the same time the armor seems to have limits. It uses human muscle tissue for some reason, as if the Creators developed life on Earth with the most advanced muscle proteins already. The frequency swords run on a basic principle of vibration, they dont get more powerfull for different species, you either have them or you don't. But at the same time, there is a charge up for the megasmasher, yada yada.

There are fixed stats on certain weapons, and a few variables. The power level of the boost armor mergance will depend on what the armor has to work with technologically. If a creature like Thancrus already has frequency swords, the armor can't really improve him in that area, but it might do a better job at expelling heat than his radiation fin, and might decide to add flight abilities to him. (actually, the Guyver swords are superior, but I'm trying to make a point)

[Aether]

duuude it changes the structure of the lungs, thus they are not really lungs as we know them anymore, yes they maybe squashed lungs but they are not the same lungs!

if you agree that the lungs change size,shape and function then that means that the nucleic acids of the base pairs of genes inside the double helix of the chromosomes, inside the nucleus told the cells of the lungs to grow to a certain size eg not the same as normal thus meaning the dna has been changed to a state that is not the normal human lung therefore the information the genes give the cells to grow has been changed.

if you squish a grape yes its still a grape! if you crush n puncture a lung its still a lung but, if you use genetics to change the size or shape or original genetic base of a fruit or vegetable (why gm food can be bigger and be immune to pesticides etc) then yes its still the same fruit or vegetable but its cell's dna's been changed, even if only by less than 0.1%.its changed.

sigh.

i didnt say the DNA is changed to store more energy did i? i said ''it probably wouldnt need to change the DNA for the cells to just hold more energy''. if so, yeah it probably would be mtDNA if it was extra chemical energy, but i dont know, once you start verging away from the fundamentals of basic DNA theory then there are all sorts of nucleuic acids to start thinking about aswell as stuff inside the original proteins -so f that.

anyone more thoughts on the gigantic transformation?

[Guest neon medal]

just a thought but if the g-unit didn't change the host to improve it like regressing organs and generating improved ones like lungs and muscle tissues then wouldn't it stay the same size as the host as it does enlarge the host i would think to acomidate the new and improvements to what is already there.

well with the gigantic wouldn't any special abilities and such be only accessible to sho or whoever makes the unit so if g3 made a new gigantic unit or a new armour thanks to gaining the nav orbs and such then any thing tailored like shos giant form would be him only.

as sho from what i understand felt the need for more power and such plus something else can't remember what that was, but what would g3 unit be like as he may have different or similar idea that sho had when making the gigantic?

[*zeo]

Sorry Eether but there is confusion on the exact mechanics of the transformation, though I agree with you that the transformation involves DNA.

I'm the type who likes to view most things through logic and scientific analysis and a scientist would conclude that manipulation of a life form on such a scale would involve the manipulation of DNA as otherwise the organism would have difficulty functioning.

However, I don't believe it need actually change the host DNA but rather just choose which DNA is active and which become dormant, as well as perhaps combine it's own DNA into the mix.

Really, the actual working of DNA is far more complex than most People think. Our DNA is not just a library of evolutionary traits that makes us who we are but it's a dynamic library as well.

There is even growing evidence that our life experience can influence our DNA by switching them on or off and that these states can persist through generations as a form of genetic memory, which is why even identical twins will not look the same as they get older and why one would develop a disease while the other is immune, etc.

The main point to remember I think is the fact that the Creator technology is to literally manipulate life, so something like the G-Unit could easily manipulate DNA.

So it is technically possible even if that is not how it is done.

Though we do have the nature of the parasitic organism to help support this idea as in part that is what the parasitic organism does, it assimulates the DNA of its victims/prey but the CM keeps it from completely assimulating the host and instead uses it to help manipulate the host body for mutual benefit. Producing the Bio-Booster effect, at least that is how I view it.

As for the Gigantic, we have at least one scene in the Manga in which it appears to flow over G1 like a second skin before growing into the final Gigantic size. The Guyver itself grows a bit after it bonds to the host, though easier to see in the anime, so this seems consistent.

We also have a side by side comparison of the Gigantic with the Cocoon and once fully active the Gigantic looks almost too big to fit inside the Cocoon, further suggesting it grew. So like the normal Unit the armor flows over the host, bonds, and then powers up to finish the tranformation.

We do know for a fact that cellular growth during activation is extremely rapid, both G1 and the Gigantic have shown this. G1 when he deactivated and then soon re-activated the unit, showing the armor completely regenerated and fully re-empowered. While the time Agito stole the Gigantic from G1 showed it fully regenerated when it went on G3 an instant later.

The key to that is the Unit draws the Bio-Boost energy from the Boost Dimension from which both the Unit and the Gigantic are stored when not in use. The Guyver itself constantly siphons energy from the Boost Dimension via the Gravity Control Orb, which is why the Guyver can keep regenerating no matter how much damage it accumulates and why even the Mega Smashers can recharge given time.

The Gigantic Exceed is the ultimate expression of this as it is truly mind blowing how much energy you would need to grow that big.

How Takaya views it may differ on some details however, and this is a fictional character we are talking about so YoungGuyver's view is as valid as mine. You are free to decide who think has the better theory or make one of your own.

It's fun to think about in any case.

[Aether]

I agree everybodys view or theory is as valid as the next, if everyone agreed or we knew all the answers there would be nothing to discuss would there!?!, and i dont like to come across argumentitive, but some views or theories are naturally more or less logical than others, which is why i am thankfull for your replies Zeo as you have raised things i have either overlooked or forgotten. i totally understand i may not be completely right about how the Guyver interacts with the host or some other things in life! but im just trying to be logical - the only person to have the final say - even if in the end it turned out to not be 100% factually correct, is the master of the (guyver) universe! Takaya

well at least someones agrees about it interacting in someway with DNA!...

''

Though we do have the nature of the parasitic organism to help support this idea as in part that is what the parasitic organism does, it assimulates the DNA of its victims/prey but the CM keeps it from completely assimulating the host and instead uses it to help manipulate the host body for mutual benefit. Producing the Bio-Booster effect, at least that is how I view it.''

I like that. I wonder what the parasite gains from the host if it doesnt consume them? maybe it just likes kicking Creator/Zoanoid ass?

i agree that the working or possible working of DNA is extremely complex, id have thought its only second to quantum physics.

i have no doubt that the way we live our lives can effect us at that level of exsistence,its obvious it can change i believe that it all comes down to energy and consciousness - an example being when terminally ill People seemingly will themselves better or prolong their life for much longer than excpected.

I do believe that some of the supposed 'junk' DNA is actually just dormant possibilities waiting to be 'switched on' or that unwanted traits can be switched off, these switches are what potentially make all sorts of things possible - like shapeshifting - werewolfs, zoanoids etc. etc. ,and obviously why there are diferent races,species etc.

''We do know for a fact that cellular growth during activation is extremely rapid, both G1 and the Gigantic have shown this. G1 when he deactivated and then soon re-activated the unit, showing the armor completely regenerated and fully re-empowered. While the time Agito stole the Gigantic from G1 showed it fully regenerated when it went on G3 an instant later.''

If a trip back to the Boost Dimension is all they need to rejuvenate themselves, then it seems as if the answer when either Guyvers in deep doo doo is to just retract the Guyver then boost again immediately after :wink: ... maybe the timespace difference would allow it to regenerate before it came back to our dimension seemingly instantly... it might be awkward if the host has lost a limb etc. then we would be able to see Agito or Sho well battered...but maybe them being in so much pain would make them pass out thus they wouldnt be able to call the Guyver back..hmm bad idea.

I still think its way cool that sho (and Agito) theoreticlly grow 'into' gigantic preportions. i havent had the pleasure of the Exceed yet but im looking forward to it

[Renegade]

Too big...no more quotes...

I'm glad Zeo pointed out how DNA works. The Creators planned for humans to be weapons, the G-Unit probably manipulates the host by activating dormant genes. We still have the DNA of the first microbes from which we evolved; it's just been extended. For example we are now trying to produce dinosaurs by manipulating bird DNA to express dinosaur traits. We have been able to cause the embryo of a chicken to continually grow its tail as a dinosaur would. Normally, this growth would be suppressed by the activation of another gene.

I don't think that the G-Unit cellularly modifies the host, but simply deactivates the organs by suppressing blood flow and collapsing the chest cavity. I always thought that the Guyver's muscle tissue is modified similar to how a Zoanoids is: The dormant DNA is activated to produce larger rapid muscle growth.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Renegade

[*zeo]

Zoanoids are another story, because quite frankly they violate the law of conservation of energy. Basically matter=energy and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only its form can be changed. Not to mention the law of entropy, in that objects tend to lose energy and not gain them.

So anything that can spontaneously increase its mass is violating the law of conservation of energy.

The Guyver at least has the energy siphon from the Boost Dimension to explain it's rapid regeneration and growth.

But Zoanoids were never given an explaination for how they could pull off the same trick, at least long enough for the transformation.

The only theory I have is that since the Unit was standard technology before the Creators came to Earth that the Bio-Boost process was adapted for the zoanoid as a means to fuel the transformations. Though unlike Guyvers they can't continuously siphon energy but like an accelerant the mechanism of the Bio-Boost could be used to fuel the transformation.

The Guyver itself seems to follow this as well as the rate of regeneration is at its greatest at the moment of activation. Cellular growth could possibly be the requirement for this type of energy siphon.

For example, though it took just over 11 hours for G1 to start regenerating from the CM, the actual regeneration only took minutes once it started, which is far fast faster than the normal rate of Guyver regeneration where it took minutes just to regeneration the claw marks on the Mega Smashers from Enzyme.

That's my theory in any case, based on observations like the ones I just listed. Incidently, it would also help to explain why humans are so much more powerful with a unit than a Creator if we already had the genetic predesposition for Bio-Boosting. Something to think about in any case...

Others have suggested things like they may just store that energy inside them but that goes against what we know about physics unless Zoanoids occupied more than the 3 dimensions we normally interact with, or otherwise they'd be super dense to account for both the mass and energy needed to fuel the transformation.

There was also suggested that they may use a supposed trick of string theory and hide the energy in what would essentially be a massless vibration. The problem with that is the trick only exists as a math equation that doesn't take into account the rest of the universe and massless energy tends to be uncontainable, like Neutrinos, etc. So I disagree with that theory.

What we do know about Zoanoids though is that their DNA is altered, and their existence as humans is more or less just a disguise. Zoanoids don't even have to look like monsters, it's just part of the psychological warfare aspect and manifestations of any particular weapon systems. There was even one zoanoid that could make itself look like another human, as was the case when Chronos tried to capture Sho was a fake Mitzuki.

So zoanoids have a complete restructuring of their DNA, this fact is practically hammered into the audience with nearly everyone involved telling us that once someone is zoaformed that there is no turning back.

This wouldn't be the case if the zoaform DNA was separate from the human DNA.

Consequently this means zoanoids are essentially shapeshifters that have been programmed to take specific forms for combat.

Though some would use Zoalords to argue that they seem to revert to human form when weakened, as we do see them reverting after battles.

This however can be explained in two ways, one being as a living organism that taking a less energy draining form is simply economical and for zoalords at least when the energy stored in their zoacrystal is exhausted the Zoalord tends to revert to the form they had before bonding to the Zoa-Crystal. Like Waferdanos reverted into a forest when he removed his zoacrystal, though he wasn't human to begin with to does give an alternate mechanism for the transformation to reverse itself.

Now the idea that the Guyver Unit could just compress the organs, via whatever method you can think of, is a valid idea but I'm against it because it goes against the idea of the Guyver being a living organism that is symbiotic with its host.

My own theory is that the organism merges with the host cells and the combined organism is what makes up the Guyver.

What leads me to that is the fact the host body can be regenerated so quickly. Even if it leaves the host bones, muscles, nervous system, and brain alone something is need to explain the rapid cell growth needed for regeneration.

Normal human cells simply can't replicate that quickly but a hybrid cell of host and organism could. Not to mention what happens to the host skin and cloths. But like I said before I tend to view things in scientific terms and Takaya isn't a scientist so he may have his own ideas how it all works.

[Guest neon medal]

well the part about how the cm started to regenerate hours after the body was destroyed well my theory for that would be a survival mechanisum as if something or somethings is powerful enough to destroy the body then regenerating the body within minutes after would only cause the units new body in any of the stages to be most likely attacked again.

so as long as the cm which looks like it can't do much without the body if you look at it that way as i am sure chronos did and made the assumtion that it may possible regenerate a g-unit or that it would do nothing allowing them to study it more indepth and create something similar for their own use. more so when you realise that if they can communicate with the cm then they will be able to do so with other creator technology as the risk in destroying the nav orbs trying to get full access to all the infomation there is to high.

but the cm would be perfect as it is also small less risk of lossing valibule info though using it to make better armour or weapons or control crystals.

thats what they probably were thinking, so when the unit started to regenerate they got a nasty surprise, though from what is understood is that the unit is like a computer, as it said that the cm contains all the programing and storage of host personal data up until the enhanced armour body was destroyed. so regenerating the body first and activating a friend or foe recognistion program while it intergrates the memories and everything that made sho who and what he is up till he died into the brain then bring it back on line.

to break it down why it heals damage slower that it does when it regenerates i would assume is that while it is regenerating from the cm it is vonrable and the host is not there to make decisions while when he/she is and they are in combat then the energy used to boost the healing factor maybe in use with the weapons or helping with the speed and such. only diverting it or storing some for more high level damage like lost limbs or large wounds leaving weapons like mega smasher and gravity orb off line, well thats my thought on it.

with the zoanoids transforming i would thing the energy would be either stored more efficently in the body like in chemicals as one idea another is how a martial Artists in other fiction like dbz, ranma1/2, street fighter and king of fighers all are able to generate large amounts of life energy or ki, chi so their bodies must have become more efficent with holding energy in the cells and converting the chemicals and food eaten and stored.

other idea would be them drawing small amounts of energy from around them to act as a catalyst in the transformations, sort of like how the Guyver draws energy from the boost dimention but then it is possible that the Creators used how the units did this and made something similar for the zoanoids as it could be risky in keeping to much energy in the body while not transformed or it could be used as a emergency source to transform.

to take from another Anime dbz freeza was supposedly used a smaller form to conserve his energy so zoalords after battle or when they have used to much energy going to a smaller form as well as a human form would cut down the energy drain and would make them less a target for People who don't know that they can take a human form.

that zoanoid that took on other forms must be very hard to make or a one off as you don't see another one at all though seeing how it could shift forms then it is possible that it was meant for spying and not actual combat as turning into a zoaform that has high and simple combat ability no complicated weapons or energy weapons as it could cause problems for it to hold or change in to other forms for spying.

this could be a reason behind aptom as he is able to change his forms though to use any weapons like vibational swords he would need to absorb and totally consum who or whatever zoaform to gain access to us it, this would make him a combat shapeshifter though most likely with some problems and they may not be sure how they had managed to make him as he is to make more and controllable as well.

hmm if the organisum is enhancing or making the organs better then it also compressing them would i think be a good idea as it makes it harder to hit and easier to repair, though having them as the same size would make it just as easy to keep functional as the part that is damaged is repaired. though i still wonder about the mega smasher cells as i seen People say that they compress the lungs when they are used or take up most of the chest cavity, but i am sure i saw the cells inflate when the chest plate was opened thus meaning that they were deflated while the plate was closed.

though one thing thats been bugging me is if a Guyver in human form dies what happens to the unit as it wasn't activated, does it remain lost or does it regenerate a new g-unit then of course is the final idea that it regenerates the host from when it was last used and brings him back to the matiral plane.

that also goes for zoaforms if they are killed in human form do they stay like a normal dead body or does it start to disolve like when killed in zoaform?

[*YoungGuyver]

Wow, so much added since I last contributed to this.

Small mistake Zeo. The Gigantic comparison to the Chrysalis (Cacoon). We have pics of the Gigantic armor plates fitting over the regular Guyver armor plates. The Gigantic plates are huge already. The Gigantic armor is not changing size, though the regular armor is, and the regular armor must be contorting, as the control metal shifts proportion in the forhead compared to the eyes in order to fit into the Duel control metal.

In opinion though, I do agree that DNA is integrated for zoanoids, but there is Aptom, which suggests a library structure. Aptom can absorb the DNA of any zoanoid, and mimic absorbed zoanoids perfectly. But he has always been stuck with his same human form, which always expresses the same scar. It is as if he is absorbing zoanoid DNA, but not any new human elements. It is strange that he is sifting through it. Why would he keep the scar if he had a choice? Even if he wanted to sneek into a Chronos base, such as Relics point in order to perform an assasination or feeding frenzy (He still kept the scar hidden under his helmet). That's the whole reason for the library effect theory. Though I'm interested to see if he gets rid of the scar intentionally for any purpose- to honor Hayami in some way, or to feel as if he doesn't need it at some point for an emotional reason. I guess we'll have to see.

But all in all I'm really impressed. You've really covered all you bases, and actually not presented a biased opinion at all. You've actually stated which parts are opinion. I can't believe I'm reading this. And this isn't the first post like this that I've read from you lately. This is weird.

[*Jess♥]

''Restructures it on a cellular level? We know that it restructure DNA? Where did that come from?''

How else do you think it restructures the internal organs? its not just by giving them more 'power', if the dna didnt change then neither would the proteins that make up the structure of the internal organs...weve established that it does these things from the VDF, i would call having my lungs shrunk to make way for a megasmasher organ, internal organs shrunk, and a new respiratory organ created being genetically modified/ restructured/ changed, wouldnt you?

too much in this topic, I can't possibly read it all, but i need to clarify something here.

cells are determined by how the rna inside them. the rna is taken by interpreting the dna. therefore if the guyvers cells override that mechanism the dna need not be altered.

my thoughts on something else....

if the human dna contains so much information on the genetic possibilities of life.,. you know.. like itn contains a libraqry of data for some other animals.. then could the zoanoid and nguyver systems work by simply accessing this library?

that maybe they base the outcome of transformation more on our own dna than we realise?

[*zeo]

That is essentially my take on it Ryuki, the Unit only has to alter the genetic expression and not the genes themselves.

And human genetic potential could be why humans are better host than Creators.

Small mistake Zeo. The Gigantic comparison to the Chrysalis (Cacoon). We have pics of the Gigantic armor plates fitting over the regular Guyver armor plates. The Gigantic plates are huge already.

Sorry YoungGuyver, but you're forgetting book 15 where it shows the Gigantic flowing over G1 just like the normal unit flows over Sho. I did say at least one example!

Even the normal unit looks big when it first appears behind the host but when it starts wrapping onto the host it does so like a second skin before it beefs up and like I said that is easier seen with the Anime that shows the normal unit beefing up as the muscle calves, shoulders, etc pop as the host is bio-boosted.

Only the head is consistently shown as large but that has the CM ring in it as well as the other sensory organs, which goes with your own theory that the unit keeps the augmented organs when it comes off and just puts them back when it bonds.

The hands and feet though in that scene are clearly shown as matching up!!! I.E.> The host hand didn't wind up in the elbows, etc.

[Aether]

too much in this topic, I can't possibly read it all, but i need to clarify something here.

cells are determined by how the rna inside them. the rna is taken by interpreting the dna. therefore if the guyvers cells override that mechanism the dna need not be altered.

my thoughts on something else....

if the human dna contains so much information on the genetic possibilities of life.,. you know.. like itn contains a libraqry of data for some other animals.. then could the zoanoid and nguyver systems work by simply accessing this library?

that maybe they base the outcome of transformation more on our own dna than we realise?

I'll try n make this my last long brain farting post!

Yes! Good point Ryuki - it seems my first statement that the Guyver restructures the human body fundamentally at a cellular level was correct but i went on overkill by stateing DNA in the next breath, causing a bit of confusion ( iblame my memory havent read or really needed to think about DNA for about 6 years!), if i would have brushed up on it i might have realised this sooner :wink:

So we are saying that The Guyver somehow sends signals to the hosts RNA to read and translate the hosts exsisting DNA a diferent way thus creating the amino acids into different combinations of proteins makeing the cells of the organs (etc.) to grow differently to accomodate the Guyver suit... woo hoo that sorts how the host is modified (more or less)!

regarding the genetic library i would say seeing that we have 98% same DNA as chimps and Bonobos n a high percentage the same as mice its highly probable that we have the potential of probably every singe organism that exsists or has exsisted on earth inside us...

seeing as some zoanoids blatantly have animlas as their foundation it would be likely that that is their base ..the weapons would require a lot more engineering by the cronos geneticsts i would have thought?though id say it was possible it would just be very complicated to figure out and get everything to grow to the desired functioning weapon ..

as for the Guyver i statred to wonder if the Guyver could grow out of humans DNA but that would mean that the Guyvers DNA ( i presume it grows like that?) is made the same as humans...

if it is of alien design maybe it has more or less number of nucleic acids and could even have completely different acids forming its DNA making it impossible for a human to just shapeshift to a guyver.

maybe the difference in the DNA could be why the combination of Guyver and humans is so powerfull (as i think Zeo alluded too)- because the Guyvers DNA was based on the same as the Creators ? presumeably they created the guyvers before they came to earth and started tinkering with earth organisms, and the difference of the humans/ earthlings DNA interacting with that DNA based on the Creators caused some extraordinary reaction at.........a cellular level

Edited February 26, 2008 by Eether

[*YoungGuyver]

Ok, I'll check your example first. Book 15... alright, that one pic in the corner does support you. The knee to foot lengths of both armors are the same length in that pic.

Book 10, When the Gigantic is summoned the Gigantic is clearly full sized (no real way we can assume the Gigantic is small in that one). Page 117 of the Shonen version for reference. I'd point out how the cover page of Chapter 76 still has the Guyver armor as being so much small than the Gigantic as it retracts, but cover art is usually more artistic impression.

Volume 23, page 178, we can see the Gigantic chest plate cover a whole lot more than just the megasmasher plate. The diaphram plate (I needed to call it something) covers up the entire abdominal plate. That looks like much bigger armor fitting over it. The collar is still the size of the Guyver's head as the Gigantic head armor wraps around.

On to the other subject.

I don't think the Guyver needs the host to generate anything. I don't think it needs to really bother with the host rna or anything. I mean, we are arguing one cell tissue generating something over another. We are forgetting that the armor is also living tissue. Not only that, but it has already shown the ability to generate some rather unique substances. Why does the armor need to grant a host the ability to generate anything new, when it itself already possesses such an ability?

I know this is an old theory that I keep on regurgitating, but maybe I can phrase it better this time.

What if the cells of the armor are like a super factory. The armor already seems to convert energy from the boost dimension into matter in order to regenerate the entire body-to generate the entire armor from the unit-g. The armor can generate vertually any substance. What if the parasite only hunts like Aptom for new combinations and energy? That each cell of the armor is already a super factory? A cell of the armor can 'generate' a host cell at will if it wanted to-that way the host doesn't have to worry about generating as fast (actually, with Aptom molecular accelerator and the unit-g stasis plates, acceleration fields may be within creator tech, but at least the theory is still there)

[Renegade]

I think Ryuki got the gist of what we were all saying. Young your definitely right, why would the G-Unit manipulate the host cells' protein production when it can just produce the necessary components itself. Its likely that capability of the G-Unit and human fighting ability that allows the Guyvers to be so powerful. Humans have been bred to be genetically perfect killing machines, and the G-Unit gives them an endless supply of energy.

Now how do we make it bearable to read this? Lets try to pop a joke in every here and there!

[*zeo]

why would the G-Unit manipulate the host cells' protein production when it can just produce the necessary components itself.

Because it's a symbiotic bonding and and the form is based on both the properties of the unit and the host.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the unit need manipulate the host for everything but some things simply require alteration. Human bone and muscle tissue for example would never withstand the strain of Guyver level strength no matter how much it increases cellular growth, just as one example. It doesn't need to necessary create something new but it does need to augment what is there to make that possible.

My own theory is that the organism merges with the host and uses itself to augment the properties of the host cells. Kinda like how the mitochondria boosts the capabilities of our own cells, both being part but still separate of our cells. So I see it as a symbiosis that combined produces the Guyver.

Of course the parts that are totally different from the host would just be the organism, like the Smasher cells, etc.

In part this could explain the disparity of the Gigantic examples as the head and chest would have components not in the host normally. The Giga Smashers for example with their added gravitational orbs would prevent the chest from fully conforming to the host size and shape. But the arm and legs don't have that many augmentations aside from the power amps so they can conform.

The actual transformation, just like with the host with Guyver Unit would be instantaneous. So the Gigantic would only have to contort for the host Unit for just an instant and then the transformation would be complete. Which is why we usually don't see much as it is too quick and Takaya can't animate it that much in just a few panels.

[*Jess♥]

if it is of alien design maybe it has more or less number of nucleic acids and could even have completely different acids forming its DNA making it impossible for a human to just shapeshift to a guyver.

maybe the difference in the DNA could be why the combination of Guyver and humans is so powerfull (as i think Zeo alluded too)- because the Guyvers DNA was based on the same as the Creators ? presumeably they created the guyvers before they came to earth and started tinkering with earth organisms, and the difference of the humans/ earthlings DNA interacting with that DNA based on the Creators caused some extraordinary reaction at.........a cellular level

I read recently that scientists had synthesised a different kind of base for DNA.

ordinary DNA has 4 but synthetic DNA could have 6. this makes for much more complex information in the same amount of DNA and would be fully compatible.

On to the other subject.

I don't think the Guyver needs the host to generate anything. I don't think it needs to really bother with the host rna or anything. I mean, we are arguing one cell tissue generating something over another. We are forgetting that the armor is also living tissue. Not only that, but it has already shown the ability to generate some rather unique substances. Why does the armor need to grant a host the ability to generate anything new, when it itself already possesses such an ability?

I know this is an old theory that I keep on regurgitating, but maybe I can phrase it better this time.

What if the cells of the armor are like a super factory. The armor already seems to convert energy from the boost dimension into matter in order to regenerate the entire body-to generate the entire armor from the unit-g. The armor can generate vertually any substance. What if the parasite only hunts like Aptom for new combinations and energy? That each cell of the armor is already a super factory? A cell of the armor can 'generate' a host cell at will if it wanted to-that way the host doesn't have to worry about generating as fast (actually, with Aptom molecular accelerator and the unit-g stasis plates, acceleration fields may be within creator tech, but at least the theory is still there)

i actually wanted to comment on this but zeo was thinking the same stuff it seems :-

Because it's a symbiotic bonding and and the form is based on both the properties of the unit and the host.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the unit need manipulate the host for everything but some things simply require alteration. Human bone and muscle tissue for example would never withstand the strain of Guyver level strength no matter how much it increases cellular growth, just as one example. It doesn't need to necessary create something new but it does need to augment what is there to make that possible.

I would like to remind you guys of a diagram i posted a few months ago.

it was of a cell with a small part of bio-boosted organism inside like mitochondria. when the Guyver is activated, these small parts of teh cells come into action and control the interactions of the cell.

I don't know if you guys remember or wether it is relevant to hte specifics you are going into.

[*zeo]

Excellent point Ryuki, very revelant. I think the confusion comes from the blanket statement that certain parts of the host aren't altered.

When we see a lot happening that is hard to explain otherwise.

But it seems pretty clear that Takaya, or at least the translations should be made more clearer in meaning that nothing perminent is changed and nothing is changed aside from how the host organism works while the armor is on.

Augmentation doesn't require perminent change but still can give the result as if that was the case.

Like there is a distinction between mitochondria and the rest of our cells, mitochondria even has its own DNA that is separate from the Cells, but they still work as one.

It is very likely from this growing evidense that Guyver organism works with the host in a similar way, assimulating the host into itself and creating a hybrid being while the armor is active.

In fact I think that is a good comparison since the host is used for energy just like the mitochondria is used for energy by our cells. Without the mitochondria our cells wouldn't have the energy generating capability to do much of anything, just like the Guyver organism is pretty much just dormant without a host.

Consequently, since this is essentially the basis for how the bonding process works this would also be true of the Gigantic as well and follow the same rules.

[*Jess♥]

well teh Guyver is a 'bio-booster' and as such is supposedly boosting bio-energy?

isn't bio-energy the stuff that is being produced by mitochondria?

why does the Guyver not simply work by boosting the output.

at the basic level at least.

obviously it does other stuff.... but that could be the definition of boosting the bioenergy?

maybe Guyver does like... making more mitochondria, or mimics the energy producing qualities of the mitochondria with it's own components...

like "bb-mitochondria" and then it changes the other components of the body cells to be compatable with such high amounts of that energy.

sorry if I'm wandering off topic.

[Renegade]

Well the Guyver is a 'bio-booster' and as such is supposedly boosting bio-energy? Isn't bio-energy the stuff that is being produced by mitochondria? Why does the Guyver not simply work by boosting the output. At the basic level at least, obviously it does other stuff.... but that could be the definition of boosting the bio-energy?

Maybe Guyver does like... making more mitochondria, or mimics the energy producing qualities of the mitochondria with it's own components...like "bb-mitochondria" and then it changes the other components of the body cells to be compatible with such high amounts of that energy.

Well, its certainly easier to grasp than sucking energy out of a pocket dimension. I would like to think that it works that way, but we're really just speculating now. If that diagram you mentioned is Guyver material please repost it. It could be just the sort of justification this theory needs.

[*Jess♥]

ok found it.

the sizes are metaphorical, not literal.

they are representations of the degree of significance.

[Aether]

Thanks largely to the contributions of Ryuki and Zeo... heres my suming up/take of whats been proposed plus a little more, see if you agree:

The armour of the suit is in another dimension yet the organism still lives inside the hosts cells such as in the mitochondrial diagram, then when the armour is activated the dormant guver mitochondria bio boosts , making its energy production kick in or it could just be a receptive conduit for the influx of boost dimension energy( e.g the 'guyver mitochondria' may not actually produce the energy within itself but still act as a 'mitochondria' cell by releaseing the energy incoming from the boost dimension into the host after the Bio Boost occurs), thus modifying the hosts cells and or energy levels and inturn possibly the guyvers making its energy stronger.

Along side this mitochondrial theory we could say that there could be dormant Guyver messenger RNA (and any other RNA types needed for the transformation) to go with the theory we had on the guyver's modification of the host RNA's interpretation of the host's original DNA to modify the host's organs,bones,muscles etc.so that 1.the hosts body acomodates the physical armour and bio weapon and 2. can withstand the forces exerted on the Guyver in combat.

on the nature of the Guyver organism...

I have neglected to call the Guyver organism a parasite because that would mean it was harming the host,it's nature only seems parasitic when it actually 'attacks' a host by destroying them ... as far as im aware it isnt subtley harming sho or agito (that we know of), this should mean then that, as it is for Sho and Agito, it is just a symbiote.

This symbiotic relationship, if as the theory above, would be a 'facultative endosymbiosis' where one thing lives inside another where 'the relationship is beneficial but not essential to survival of the organisms'' and also a 'Mutualistic sybmbiosis' which is ' a biological interaction between individuals of two different species, where both individuals derive a fitness benefit, for example increased survivorship'...

this seems right to me as the Guyver needs a host to be active but obviously doesnt need it to live or it just wouldnt exsist, but the host may increase its 'survivorship'. The host may not gain anything per se until the armour is activated and the Bio Boost takes effect and obviously becoming a Guyver increases 'survivorship'. ( as it makes the host hard as nails and able to take on Cronos )