Ukraine and Russia

[Mirabilis]

 I say leave Putin be. America and the west have enough problems as it is. The people in Crimea voted to go back to Russia, it's what they wanted, and if America or any other nation prevents that from happening then America has become the tyrant, denying people of other countries the freedom they have and things they voted for. Who are we to deny them what they want?

 It's nothing more than a media and political move to get our eyes off of the true threat and problem we have, the individual in the white house who has no right to be there and keeps doing everything within his power to destroy America...that includes doing everything he can to start a new war with somebody, from Syria to Russia. He doesn't care they just want America to go up in flames.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Mirabilis

[LordSpleach]

I would trust the Russia Today report since it is Russia's international propaganda.

 

I don't want the US to start another pissing match with Russia, but I don't think we can ignore Putin for that long. And I don't think Crimea went willingly.

[*V Guyver]

 I say leave Putin be. America and the west have enough problems as it is. The people in Crimea voted to go back to Russia, it's what they wanted, and if America or any other nation prevents that from happening then America has become the tyrant, denying people of other countries the freedom they have and things they voted for. Who are we to deny them what they want?

 It's nothing more than a media and political move to get our eyes off of the true threat and problem we have, the individual in the white house who has no right to be there and keeps doing everything within his power to destroy America...that includes doing everything he can to start a new war with somebody, from Syria to Russia. He doesn't care they just want America to go up in flames.

Uh, You're joking right? Obama hasn't started wars, he's pulled us out of two wars that he was elected into. In Comparison we had Bush stick us in two unwarranted wars. Our involvement in Libya was UN led, and we haven't gotten involved in Syria and Ukraine in terms of aggressive war stances. You really should reevaluate what a war monger is. 

Now back on the topic on hand. The EU is now on Shakey ground, it's proven unable to act with Ukraine, it's now in a political crises internally outside of just the ukraine issue. It's economy is still in recovery to boot. The US on the other hand is already spread out too thin with it's various issues. Had it had ground troops in the Ukraine, it might of been a different issues. But Their bases only go as far as Germany as far as I remember. Lithuania is also recently becoming concerned with Russia. This is such a bungled international mess. 

You only have to look at what happened in the Hungarian revolution. No one helped, they did mostly the same as we've done today. This despite the obvious fact that Ukraine is clearly it's own sovereign nation and  not a protectorate, we still don't uphold international law. Not the UN, not the EU, not the US. =(

[Mirabilis]

 Oh my gosh, you have to be kidding me V. Obama is a complete joke, and he walks around with his blown up chest like he's some kind of Captain America. He may not be instigating things with Russia, but he sure does make a show out of to pissing off Putin, and tries to act tough by drawing lines, erasing them and drawing another. The ONLY reason why he didn't go into Syria, full force, was because the American people had enough of the wars, and his bull drenn. And don't try to make it out that I'm some bush supporter, that fool did a lot of stupid and ridiculous things, but he's not the president anymore now is he? I'm well aware of what a war monger is, so perhaps you better reevaluate your stance on trying to educate me. The point is Obama has no right to be telling others what to do, especially those who aren't under the American constitution. And as far as I know, we're still pretty active in Afghanistan, some of my friends were just deployed yesterday over there. And unwarranted? You're joking right? Okay, well I 'll save that one for another time.


 Now as far as the U.S. trying to interact on the matter, how can we? It's not our business, our place and we have no ground to stand on. Simply put, America can't afford any other wars, we're torn to pieces on the inside thanks to our idiots in power, spread way to thin, our military has been cut to pieces thanks to our commander in chief, our debt is beyond payable, there is just no way any good would come out of it. America needs to keep to it self on this matter, recover and stop sticking our noise in everyone's business. But of course that won't happen, when the rich wage war it's the poor who die. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Mirabilis

[durendal]

O. M. G.!!! Are those Jimmy Choo shoes?

 

Kidding aside, current united states administration seems to be in a deadlock, since the democrats and republicans doesn't seem to go eye to eye.  I'm not from the US nor do I claim to know everything about their government.  But based on the news that I've been reading, I'm leaning more on the conclusion that Obama, although making some unpopular decisions, was not able to fully implement all his policies due to the meddling of congress.  Similar to how Obamacare was implemented, though it's intentions are good, it's execution was disastrous.  

 

I do understand the sentiment of why the US should not meddle in international affairs, because they need to fix their own mess before trying to fix the others.  On the other hand, the US is looked upon as a world super power, and doing nothing in the wake of a crisis would put them poorly on the eyes of the international community, especially for small nations who are unable to defend themselves.  With the rise of China as a super power, the US cannot be caught off guard.  It's a complicated matter, and it's not something us non-politicians would understand.  I'm a firm believer that there are people in the government who truly has good intentions.  But everyone has different opinions on what good things should be prioritized, thus the debate on what is best.  It's like the saying that too many chef will spoil the broth.  

[Mirabilis]

 Here's an update on the matter.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-putin-meet-1st-time-since-ukraine-crisis-132155508--politics.html

[*V Guyver]

Oh boy, Really Purin? You claim to try and deescalate the issue, and you send in tanks?

 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/world/europe/ukraine-claims-full-control-of-port-city-of-mariupol.html

[*Jess♥]

There is really no misunderstanding of what is going on there.

It seems clear to anyone that the Russian military commanders saw a power vacuum and decided to take advantage.

I'm not going to condemn or praise that action, just saying what it looks like.

 

Personally, I am against military intervention when not necessary. That view applies to all military, so applies to UK armed forces, US forces, Russian forces, etc.

[*V Guyver]

Agreed with that. I'm certain there would never of been an issue. the election was an election, having foreign troops suddenly pour in just caused an entire mess. Most of Russia's population has viewed this as patriotic, something to be prideful of, with an overall view that the West is causing the ukraine problems and that we are pouring money and weapons in trying to surprise a revolution. We did pledge one Billion, but certainly not weapons. It's also worth noting that though the east was the ousted president's stronghold, he had actually been losing support there too, which is the entire justification of Russian involvement.

So what does this all leave us? The west seeing Russian Hostility but not really helping. While we have most Russians thinking the Ukraine is a US/Western puppet (Filled with Neo Nazi's at that apparantly according to Russian Media) that has to be "rescued" and absorbed into Russia again, but can't be completely aggressive and risk the west actually being convinced to throw in real weight.

Why the hell does this all feel like NAzi Appeasement to me again? We literally allowed Russia to invade and take over Crimea, and that is now apparently not enough. It feels like Austria, Czech Republic, and Poland all over again.

[*Jess♥]

we have to ask though, is what the Russian public believe true?

we can't immediately assume that they have been fed lies without also admitting that we could equally have been fed lies. what is the real situation, it's hard to say. maybe Ukraine was becoming a puppet of the western regimes? what with the NSA scandal and GCHQ... also the actions exposed by people like Chelsea Manning, and the presence of Guantanamo bay... The western regimes are not altruistic. They betray others and they betray us who they are supposed to serve.
We are all told by our media that Putin is a guy not to be trusted, but how do e know they aren't just painting him to be some kind of demon? For all we know Putin could be the nicest guy in the world and may be truly on the side of freedom etc.
well there is the news about anti-LGBT laws or whatever is actually the case, it can't all be fabricated so there are problems, but there are problems everywhere. I think how media focuses on these things makes us think a government is 'the enemy', not literally but a 'us and them' situation. I mean I can also use China as anothr example. USA govt. criticising their human rights record, is total hypocrisy!! I mean, China is not sending drones into other countries and bombing innocent civilians as collateral murder.

[*V Guyver]

Oh I have no doubt that there are interests in Ukraine and other countries. The US has been clearly intrusive and controlling over the years, but it's not the case in the Ukraine, maybe in Iraq and Afghanistan, yes. But certainly not in the Ukraine. I know we have a bought congress and a skewed media, but everything I've ever studied about makes Russia seem far more problematic in this crises. Like I pointed out before, this is all feeling too much like Land Grabs made by Imperial US, Nazi germany, and Napoleon's France. The parallels are scary. I also have to note just how little support Russia has over this issue, literally, most of the international community is against it, even those with with scarcely any ties to the US and West... that's got to be an indication of something.

With the media case, the US seems to be treating the Ukraine as an unwanted messy problem, Russian Media is on on the other hand, full media blitz of patriotism. There is also a big clear difference as to what is wrong with this situation. Since we don't live in Russia, we can't exactly say with true objection which of our media is more bought out and propaganda filled than the other. They are both obviously messed up to some degree, but we have a nice advantage in the US of being able to get our source from multiple news feeds. I personally prefer BBC over anything US, but at the same time I've had no problem viewing news articles from other countries when I want to cross reference this topic.

I can't say much about Putin in personality, there is too much of a contradiction with the man. He doesn't have say... a Personality Cult, but there are times when he borders on having one. So it's hard to say what kind of many he is on that aspect. He paints himself so much as a nice powerful, and multitalented man. It's impressive with some of the things he does, but at the same time, a lot of it is staged. Like him flying with a flock of birds. They had all been taken care of and trained, but the media there had given all due credit to him and made him out to be some nature preservice and more, it got to the point it turned into a back lash. Now in terms of political personality, what a scary, powerful man. He's had a good deal of power that hasn't diminished since the late 90's (Think about how much power you would have to be able to be in charge of a country for this long). His track record has now shown these recent events as a new problem, he's repeated them, and he's been known to threaten countries in a way that hasn't been seen since the cold war. For these reasons, I cannot see Putin as a man who is just idling by with convenient reasons to send troops into a country and annex it. His past actions, views, and behaviour seem to point to a man who does want to empower russia, but at others expense. If I want a better idea of what goes on in his head, I might have to read one of his books.

Edit: You know what? That gave me an idea. Searched, and came across this;

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-winner-effect/201403/the-danger-lurks-inside-vladimir-putins-brain

“I consider it to be my sacred duty to unify the people of Russia, to rally citizens around clear aims and tasks, and to remember every day and every minute that we have one Motherland, one people and one future.†-Putin

I don't mind patriotism, but this worries me yet again... It almost sounds like

"One People, One Empire, One Leader" -Hitler

[*Jess♥]

I understand what you are saying, but to draw that parallel... I don't like it.

There are members of our community who have a far different perspective and may well be big supporters of Putin. I would not want them to feel alienated.

It's your view of course, I just hope it doesn't come across as too offensive for some people.

[*V Guyver]

You're right, I hope I haven't offended anyone here on the board. For all intents and purposes, I could be entirely wrong. But I will stand by my comments until proven wrong. I think it fair enough. Maybe comparing to Hitler is a bit harsh on my end, though I'm not comparing it on a homicidal maniac aspect, but rather political. 

[*Jess♥]

I think it is perhaps fair, yes as a concerned human being noticing certain actions but not alluding to other actions.

It is perhaps more appropriate to compare Putin to Napoleon since Napoleon is a much loved and respected military commander who did much good despite his methods. That would avoid any connotations in my view. I'm not suggesting that Putin aims to do the same sort of thing. I just thought it is a better historical figure to use.
 

by the way, this is relevant - http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/15/opinion/sunday/chelsea-manning-the-us-militarys-campaign-against-media-freedom.html?_r=2

[durendal]

Consider this, if Putin was the monster that the other media outlet paints him to be, how come we don't hear of any major revolt in Russia?  In the recent years, nations could easily oust their leader with enough support of the people.  We've heard of people power toppling the current regime so what's stopping the citizens of Russia doing the same?

[LordSpleach]

The Military, their own propoganda, the apathy of the people, etc. Also basically applies to any first world country where the people are just content enough not to think critically.

[*Jess♥]

I would think the people of Russia are far more astute and politically minded than the apathetic nations of the west.
I say this because of the history of the area. The USSR was not long abolished.  I think there has been far more unrest in Russia in the recent times so as to ensure the people are so much more aware of these kinds of issues.

The truth is, Putin is pro Russia. He is a very good leader for the Russian people. He keeps Russia strong and that is something that is important to so many Russians.

[*V Guyver]

I did notice that one of the biggest fears in Russia is to become weak. They love glory and prestige of strength as much as Americans, if not more. After the fall of the USSR there was a feeling that Russia had lost it's importance and would keep falling apart into smaller countries. So in them ind of Russians, Putin is the ideal leader, the guy who can preserve strength and gain more, to preserve territories and gain more. I see some similarities with the conservative right in the US, they want the USA to have a more dominant near imperial aspect to foreign policy at times. 

[*V Guyver]

Nato claims that Russia has troops in the Unkraine. To top it off even Russian Newspapers are starting to report it discreetly according to BBC news.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28965597

Anything can happen at this point. 

 

[*Jess♥]

Thanks for the update.

 

I need to say something important now.

We are all well aware of how Russia operates with regards to many things. It has been constructive to talk about this here, but something has been on my mind.

We do have visitors here from tie to time who may find they could be compromised by this post.

The less I say about this the better, but in the interests of allowing certain visitors to keep visiting I think it is for the best that this topic not really go any further.

Please, by all means send me a private message if you need clarification.

The sole reason for this is to ensure that people are still free to come and visit our forum without any potential difficulties.

With that, I reluctantly lock this thread, I hope you don't mind me too much.