Ukraine and Russia

[Guest snow]

What is everyone's thoughts on Russia taking over Ukraine? I'd like to hear everyone's before I share my thoughts on the matter.

[*Jess♥]

It's a tricky subject.

Personally, I would be interested in hearing our Russian members' views on the situation.

We all have our own differing perspectives on it.

From what I know, there are ethnic Russian people living in Crimea and the intention of the Russian forces is to protect those people.

The media of different countries will put a certain spin on it, that is what they do.

I think in any case, the most important things is preventing loss of life. unfortunately, governments don't always hold that as the highest priority. That is ALL governments, I'm not pointing any fingers.

[Guest snow]

My thoughts are the same. My opinion is no different than yours, I fully agree with you, Yuki. I think Russia wants to protect the citizens of Ukraine. I would rather them be taken care of by Russia than be hurt by some other country or by themselves.

[*V Guyver]

I don't think it's entirely to protect citizens. If it were, they would not of increased the risk of war by actually trespassing into neighbors country and surround government buildings and institutes. They even took over airports. For all intents and purposes, this would normally start a war.

If that Russian speaking people in the Ukraine really wanted independence, they would of done so already. If they wanted to join the Russian Federation, they would of petitioned already. I can understand, those who speak russian wanting to preserve their ties to Russia, but this is something entirely different. What happened in the last few months was that the ethnic Russians, the minority in the Ukraine had a good deal of protection from the recently ousted president, and support from Russia in turn. So having that protection gone must be scary, as they had economic and political benefits. 

I can understand Russia's position. Afterall, Ukraine has been an important partner for the last few decades, and they wanted it to remain so. But some of the policies between the two are alarming, Putin offered money and a generous deal, but also threatened to break the country economically if they refused. That's not normal diplomacy, you don't threaten a person into making deals, that's criminal trade. Then there are the ties with the mob, the black market, the energy monopoly Russia enjoys over the Ukraine. I can't but see this as a bigger nation trying to corner a smaller one for it's own agenda. The prospect of a civil war and invasion did not seem to come to reality until after the President was ousted... which means that Russia is more interested in protecting it's investment, not Russian nationals. 

This is how it looks like to me. I'm hoping our russian board members can shed some light in this, that some big crime was committed that truly needed soldiers to cross a border and risk war. Because right now, I am not seeing it.

[Guest snow]

I hope America doesn't interfere for whatever reasons. I don't think America is in condition to get into it with Russia. If the US did get involved. Wouldn't Russia just call China for help? And if China got involved wouldn't that mean North Korea as well? So wouldn't it be safe for everyone just to allow Russia to take Ukraine anyway? Imagine how many people might get hurt for just getting involved. I can see where you are coming from. But wasn't Ukraine in a state of chaos before Russia made its decision? So if the government of one country cannot control or even protect its citizens, wouldn't it better if a more established country came along to take it and put in is own laws and regulations and assimilate that country into itself? I think if a country cannot take care of its citizens than maybe this is the best for it, otherwise people will continue to hurt themselves over pointless fighting.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Jupiter-Prime

[*V Guyver]

No, the US wouldn't get involved in a conflict. It has no major political interests unless the Ukraine was already part of the EU. I wonder if part of Russia's policy is due in part because the Ukraine was one of the few countries to support and supply the nation of Georgia during the 2008 war. Also, Russia has a very big interest in the black sea, the Crimea is traditionally the most important gateway for the Russian Navy. They actually still lease a naval base there. 

Sorry, still trying to make sense of this all. Why could the Ukraine just join both the EU and Russian trade deals? 

[Guest snow]

"Sorry, still trying to make sense of this all. Why could the Ukraine just join both the EU and Russian trade deals?"

 

I tried looking up your question on Google and its not even providing an answer. I don't know,thats a really good question. Wouldn't it have saved them a lot of trouble if they had just done both deals?

[*Jess♥]

being a member of two trade unions could be seen as a conflict of interest.

It is in Putin's interests to keep Russia strong and he will do everything he can towards that goal.

He would want to keep Ukraine closer to Russia rather than allow them to be more autonomous.

Currently, Ukraine gains much of their fuel via Russia and therefore Russia has a lot of leverage.

The situation hearkens back to the USSR, but of course there is more diplomacy going on and less communism.

I can't really go into any more detail and my understanding is based on what information is available to me.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood any of this.

[*Jess♥]

I just want to add here, Putin said that if Russian troops were to be present in Ukraine then it would be no different from US and UK troops in other middle eastern countries over the past decades.

He is correct of course.

US and UK troops also have no place in other countries meddling in their affairs. Our citizens are corn-fed these stories about how they are trying to install a democratic government etc. what they are actually doing is installing a government sympathetic to the US and the UK.

Russia would have just as much cause to be concerned about these actions as any 'Western' country may have concern about the situation in Ukraine.

[Guest snow]

I totally agree, Yuki. That explains a lot. I just don't know why Obama is upset about it. What is it to him?  

[*YoungGuyver]

I find it interesting why Obama would be concerned as well.  Maybe it is just because there is a huge media hype, and he's trying to look sympathetic.  Then again, Kerry is the one I hear doing all the talking.  If he's coming out as a man of action, then it would look great for a presidential bid.

 

This was starting when Ukraine made it's decision on the EU.  The president did something Putin wanted, but not the protesters.  The protesters kicked their president out.  If these protesters are actual Ukrainians, then I'd call it fair and just for the tenants of democracy.  Putin seemed to wait until the Ukrainian president ended up on Russia's doorstep seeking sanctuary.  Once Putin realized the president was all but useless at that point, he went in to start using the Russian muscle to get a handle on the situation, and make things favorable for Russia again.

 

Yes, this is just how the US, Canada, and the UK react to their own vested interests.  Living in a glass house, we can't really throw stones.  Then again, we could oust our own leaders, and charge them for imperialism, and other such crimes

[Guest snow]

Yeah, their are politicians on tv saying America needs to get involved and not allow Russia to do whatever. With what money? I don't agree with the politicians, I think they need to turn a blind eye to it and shut their mouths. I'm getting really tired of all of this. Its BS. Why does every time two countries get into it. Here comes America saying "Here I am, Its our show now! We're the justice of the world!" Yeah,sure America,keep telling yourself that.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Jupiter-Prime

[*V Guyver]

Because the UN is for the post part useless. The US isn't a policeman, maybe a crooked cop internationally. The US is as good as it gets as far as getting an international cop, sadly. 

And you're right on the money as far as the situation goes. 

What I meant by in the deal, is why they didn't actually compromise between the two. Not so much as join a specific economic group, but play both sides into a partial deal. In the past they could of done so. I guess when all you have to offer is debt, you become a beggar, not a chooser. 

As for Obama, it's the US presidents job to get upset when there is a regional disturbance near allies, and neighbors, and general threats to democracy and sovereign nations. I know, it's hypocritical considering recent US history. Yet, this is how international politics work. If he didn't condemn it, you think people wouldn't judge? Look at Clinton, to this day, his political legacy with Rwanda is a gigantic shame to his work and the US international policy. Keep in Mind also, that political pressure can help prevent wars. Example, Hitler admitted that had the UK and France threatened war over the Czech Republic, he would of given in to peace. 

[Guest snow]

I totally agree.

[durendal]

Goodwill, humanitarian, justice or what ever words you use to sugarcoat, it all boils down to one thing. Politics. Whether it's the US or Russia who sends troops to the ukraine, they all have ulterior motives. They will slaughter people and make it look justified, that's the power of politics. To me, it's just a pissing contest between the wealthy nations. It's ridiculous to start an armed conflict in the name of peace.

[Guest snow]

Yeah. I agree with you there. But I hope it ends soon. There's so much drama about it on CNN, Fox News,and NBC. There's always  governors and senators slamming the Russians left and right about how Ukraine shouldn't be put through all of this. 

[*V Guyver]

Well this is a worrying turn. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26679240

All people born in the Crimea who refuse to accept Russian citizenship will be declared foreigners. Also the language over there will be Russian, TV Russian, everything Russian. It seems the minorities, even the ones before Russians started living there will be forced to adapt. 

[Guest snow]

Wasn't Ukrain a part of the Soviet Union to begin with? So they gained their freedom when the Soviet Union broke apart and became independant and now Russia is reclaiming them and they don't like it. The one thing that does worry me is Putin. Once he returns Russia to what it used to be or more. What will he do than? Thats the part I'm worried about. He's the kind of man that could start another World War.

[LordSpleach]

Russia's leadership has been mostly former Soviet Union leaders.

[durendal]

I guess conquest is still pretty prevalent in modern times.  But instead of forceful army rushing in to seize the land, top nations are now resorting to political means to seize and annex lands, using diplomatic and economic pressures as their main weapons.  China is currently doing it and I guess Russia is as well.

[*YoungGuyver]

Wasn't Ukrain a part of the Soviet Union to begin with? So they gained their freedom when the Soviet Union broke apart and became independant and now Russia is reclaiming them and they don't like it.

 

It was a part of Russia until the revolution, then the Soviet union -conquered them in 1919.  When the USSR started, it cleaned out the royal and church coffers, then switched over to Ukraine's agricultural output until their industry got going.  Except leaching off the Ukrainian agriculture meant taking all the food (as well as stealing anything of value) which left entire families to starve to death.  This period was called the holodomor, which was basically genocide.  This is why Ukraine has tried to break off from the USSR several times.

 

Putin is calling this traditional Russian soil, but leaving out that it is traditional in the sense of being treated like a colony.

 

To me, if the people of Crimea truly want to break away from the Ukraine, then that is all well and good.  But do it WITHOUT the Russian military around to bully people into a forced vote, and give a month or two to deliberate.  But Putin is right of coarse, the west does the same thing.  In 2003, Iraq had it's vote, and according to it's constitution those elected had appointed an executive branch.  The US didn't like this new executive branch, so brought in foreigners to act as the executive branch instead.  A new branch based on religious representation, when under Hussein that never mattered before (one of his vice presidents was even Christian).  So there is a real sense of hypocrisy here

[*V Guyver]

Up until WWII the population was mostly devoid of Russians. After Russia won it's side of the second World War, it departed much of the population to break it's unity, and to force labor/kill/punish segments of the population, and recolonized it with Russians.

So in essence, up until the last century, people in that region were still traditionally living there for at least for several centuries is a mix of Ukrainians and Slavs. Even the Tartar peoples who invaded that region in the 1400's still remain there to this day despite the Soviet actions.

 It's very much like what happened to Poland over the last 300 years. Ironically enough, the Ukraine too was once of Poland and eventually split apart. Crimea's last national identity was as the Crimean Khanate, a Tartar dominated islamic nation, which was destroyed some 250 years ago, I think. 

[Guest Jupiter]

This happened back in March. Ukrainian's weren't very happy.

http://youtu.be/IUEH9ugY0G8

[*V Guyver]

I don't hear many updates about the crimea, everything is focused on eastern ukraine now. The situation just keeps getting worse. 

[Guest Jupiter]

U.S.A is breaking ties with Russia.

 

http://youtu.be/_xexPcpLj9o