Japanese Word of the Week

[ErutanXiku]

...Kind of like how a girl in the West might sound weird saying something like "I'm well stoked about etc."? No, I didn't make that up, some people I know (mainly guys) use it sometimes to convey their excitement.

[*Kenji Murakami]

I have a question, when someone is referring to an older brother that they have a personal problem with - say for example, Takaya and Shinya in the Tekkaman Blade AU I've been writing - what would they call him? Would it be something like Kyodai or Aniue? Or would they call him something else?

[durendal]

...Kind of like how a girl in the West might sound weird saying something like "I'm well stoked about etc."? No, I didn't make that up, some people I know (mainly guys) use it sometimes to convey their excitement.

Yup, something like that. Japanese tend to have masculine and feminine words. Even phrases similar to "Like, hello" which leans to be more feminine. I don't think I've ever heard a guy say that. It's either from a girl or the guy is gay.

I have a question, when someone is referring to an older brother that they have a personal problem with - say for example, Takaya and Shinya in the Tekkaman Blade AU I've been writing - what would they call him? Would it be something like Kyodai or Aniue? Or would they call him something else?

Oh family relationships. In your case, the younger brother addressing his older brother would call him "Oni-san". "Oni-chan" if they're close, "aniki" if they were bros, and "Oniue" or "Oni-sama" if they are very formal and polite. "Kyodai" is simply translated as 'siblings'. If they really hated each other, they would simply call each other using their first names.

[ErutanXiku]

Yup, something like that. Japanese tend to have masculine and feminine words. Even phrases similar to "Like, hello" which leans to be more feminine. I don't think I've ever heard a guy say that. It's either from a girl or the guy is gay.

Never heard a guy say "I'm (well) stoked,"? Hmm...perhaps it's an English-Indian slang; I think it is mainly of male origin because the idea of "stoked" is like stoking the fire to make it burn stronger...I can't really imagine a girl coming up with it. After all, the idea of "fire in one's belly" strikes a male image...at least for me, hehe.

Now I shall stop side-tracking. As for Kenji Murakami's post, I figured it would be something like that...after all, isn't it a common feature in Anime/Manga where if someone really hates another (family or not) they would refer to them solely by their first name, which is pretty disrespectful if you don't have a certain level of amiable familiarity/intimacy?

Edited February 26, 2011 by ErutanXiku

[*Kenji Murakami]

Oh family relationships. In your case, the younger brother addressing his older brother would call him "Oni-san". "Oni-chan" if they're close, "aniki" if they were bros, and "Oniue" or "Oni-sama" if they are very formal and polite. "Kyodai" is simply translated as 'siblings'. If they really hated each other, they would simply call each other using their first names.

Ah, that's interesting; something I hadn't heard of before, too. Thanks.

Oh, and something else that's interested me since I've gotten more into writing that story; since Takaya and Shinya both have pet names they made up for each other when they were kids - Takaya's is Shin-chan, or sometimes Shinya-sune, and Shinya's is Ta-kun - what would their family have thought of them?

[durendal]

Ah, that's interesting; something I hadn't heard of before, too. Thanks.

Oh, and something else that's interested me since I've gotten more into writing that story; since Takaya and Shinya both have pet names they made up for each other when they were kids - Takaya's is Shin-chan, or sometimes Shinya-sune, and Shinya's is Ta-kun - what would their family have thought of them?

Only that they would be very close? the suffix -chan is mostly used when addressing each other on a personal level, like how a boyfriend and girlfriend would address each other. But that is not to say it is solely used by them. It's more like an affectionate calling. Notice how sometimes parents would call their children -chan. It's indicative of the level of respect between two people.

The heirarchy would be something like: -chan < -san < -sama

[ErutanXiku]

I hope you don't mind me writing this, but I would just like to share an observation I have made and do correct me on anything I may have wrong...

Japanese Culture may have its differences, but I really think that the basic fundamentals are the same as all cultures, so you really shouldn't over-think it as something completely foreign and outside one's concept - especially if you're from the West. Using the practice of nicknaming, the rules are the same in all cultures - it is used as a term/sign of endearment based on familiarity or close relationship, or perhaps a way of exerting one's dominance.

-Chan is a very common nickname/suffix associated with girls or young children, and most likely within the family depending on the rules/upbringing/image they have decided for their family. As children, boys don't mind being called -chan by family members or other older acquaintances, but as they grow older they most likely want to grow out of it and will exert their masculinity by wanting a more 'manly' nickname/suffix like -kun (which is also unisex) or simply by their first name, or a more masculine variant, e.g. Hiromu may wish to be called simply Hiro/Hiro-kun/Hiromu-kun. It's like in Western cultures if a guy thinks his name is too geeky like Sebastian, he may instead wish to be called Seb or Bastian.

Taking the relationship between Shinya and Takaya, since they're brothers I think the relationship depends on what the family has dictated, as well as their personal feelings for each other. Naturally, since they've given each other nicknames/suffixes like that, family members would obviously think they were close, though with Shinya using Ta-kun it gives me the impression that he looks up to his brother somewhat, since -kun is more of a 'big boys' nickname/suffix in comparison to the one's Takaya uses - Shin-chan/Shinya-sune - which suggests Takaya dotes on his brother, unless he's using them maliciously as way of pointing out that Shinya is still a baby and Shinya can't pick up on that malicious intent.

This brings me to the point of using nicknames as a way of exerting one's dominance - it's more noticeable in competitive workplaces or gangs, I think...well those are the situations I've seen it more commonly used. It could also be used when an adversary wants to psych out his opponent, by suggesting that they are weak as children - especially when using -chan - or if it's someone they've known since childhood, to rub salt in the wound of their former relationship.

As Durendal said, the choice of nickname/suffix is indicative of the level of respect between two people, but also their level of intimacy. A girl is used to being called -chan by people she knows, but if someone she didn't know - not necessarily in the same school - came along and used it, she'd probably have a poor impression of them. It's like in the West, a person called Nathan may prefer being called thus on a professional level, but is okay with Nate or Twinkie (because he loves Twinkies) with people he knows...if someone he's never met comes along and uses it, perhaps even the latter, without his approval, he may be a little offended unless he's the really easy-going type.

I hope this makes some sense, and please correct me if I have anything wrong...

Edited February 28, 2011 by ErutanXiku

[durendal]

Yup, what she said.

But to clarify things, the Japanese culture has this fondest notion of respect, and there are certain rules to follow regarding the signs of respect. The suffix -chan and -kun (well, mostly -kun) are only used by the elder to address younger people, and may be used casually if both parties are acquainted. the -kun may be used even if both parties are not familiar with each other, as long as the person using it is way older than the person he/she is addressing. The younger person usually address a person he/she respects with -san, and sometimes even -sama. Of course, -chan may be used if the siblings are really close, as often used by a younger sister to address her brother. Also note that although -chan is not considered as a feminine language, it is most often used by females. You'll actually be teased if you are a guy and calls you brother oni-chan. You'll be branded as having a brother complex.

[*Jess♥]

i would find it very odd for a younger brother to call an older brother -kun.

it would suggest that the older brother was very immature and pretty useless at looking after himself.

think of dragonball.

goten will probably call gohan - 'gohan' or 'nii-san'.

in some other cases, you get teh use of 'aniki' which seems a bit more familiar and friendly.

for the younger brother, if he called him -chan, he would have to be very much older like a parent, even then it would be weird, unless the younger was very effeminate and it would certainly still be weird.

really, for the younger brother, stick with -kun or just the first name.

this is going y my own experience, of course you can always go by a precedent. look at some relationship in some anime that you wish to emulate and take teh naming conventions from that.

[ErutanXiku]

EDIT: Kenji, this is where it gets confusing, so if you're happy with the explanations thus far, skip this I foolishly got caught up in my own questions about honorifics/suffixes [emote=simple]heh[/emote]

--

Ah yeah, I forgot to cover hierarchy as well [emote=simple]sweatdrop[/emote].

Though really, I think that does get complicated. Nicknames are simple enough - shortened down version of names or something to signify affection among your peers or family, but remembering the right honorific/suffix is a bit tricky if you're not familiar with the rules and clear about the relationship you want to depict. I remember reading something somewhere that it was close to impossible to give accurate understandings of relationships based on honorifics/suffix alone as more often than not, the rules will be thrown out of the window for various reasons - some as mundane as facilitating 'cuteness'. I think the example involved a title where the characters used so many different ways to say "Big Brother" - I can't remember it, but examples included words like Onii-chama; Ani-chan and more...but the person translating and writing that article found it frustrating to decipher each word to mean "Big Brother"

This is why, when writing fanfiction based on Anime/Manga I refuse to throw in Japanese. It's complicated and presumptive to think someone who's not familiar will understand meanings and relationships. Also, I'm an English person writing for an English audience.

Sorry for going off topic, but that I suppose is one way that Japanese Culture gets complicated for those unfamiliar with it's mannerisms.

i would find it very odd for a younger brother to call an older brother -kun.

it would suggest that the older brother was very immature and pretty useless at looking after himself.

That's an interesting intepretation...I'm not sure if it's a sign of immaturity, but -chan and -kun are on a similar level, though -kun is considered more boyish, and with an older brother it may make him feel a bit more 'mature'. If he was referred to as -san than that's a bit too formal, as it borders close on idolasation with -sama being full-on brother complex from the younger brother's perspective. That's how I've always seen it... >.>

But your suggestion of emulating an existing desired relationship is the best way to go.

Edited February 28, 2011 by ErutanXiku

[durendal]

A younger person using -kun to an older person is a no-no. It shows clear disrespect and ignorance of the norms of society. The honorifics -kun can be used for both boy and girl. Also, maturity is not depicted in the honorifics, but rather on the grammar a person uses. Unlike in English where there is one correct grammar, in Japanese, there is the polite grammar, casual grammar and rough grammar. As examples stated below:

Example: Where are you going?

rough: Doko e ikun da?

casual: Doko e ikimasu ka?

formal: Dochira e irashaimasu ka?

Technically, if you translate all of them in english, it all means the same thing, "where are you going". But the manner of speaking depicts the level of respect one person is portraying towards the other person.

[ErutanXiku]

Hehe, see even I don't have it completely down and I've been trying to learn the language/study the culture for some years

I suppose the only exception to that is among peers in the same class, where the age difference is anything from a few days to months? Though, why is it seen as disrespect? I was under the impression that with -chan being more cutesy and associated with girls and small children, -kun would be acceptable due its more 'hard' sound? Though now that I think about it, I have noticed that younger people do not use -kun with elders - it's either -Senpai or -san. For my personal use, I would use -san because of my degree of politeness...and -kun if I was allowed to.

I don't think English is quite as simple as that. Yes, with Japanese it's easier to spot the varying levels of formality, but English is a hard language to learn - so I hear - possibly because of the range of ways of saying something. Thing is, there's so many different types of slang/rough ways of saying something...such as:

Formal: May I ask where you are going?

Polite: Where are you going?

Casual: Where are you off to?/Where are you headed?

Slang/Rough: (I have no idea what would go here, since I hardly use slang terms and it always changes depending on the demographic/influence, however here is one way with many responses and is based on context) S'up bruv? (to which the response may be) Nuttin' man, just off to the shops, innit. (I don't think anyone still uses that, but my use of slang is outdated)

As with anywhere, it all depends on who you're talking to/your associated peers. Hindi, on the other hand, is a bit more complex since one could assume it to be a rude language due to its directness, though there are ways to sound less gruff...it's just a bit longer to get your point across.

Sorry for side-tracking.

Edited February 28, 2011 by ErutanXiku

[*Jess♥]

EX, you said it's best not to complicate it... yet that seems to be what is happening!

it's best not to try and go over all complicated rules and just go with the gut. that's why i tried to mention just things that i have experienced rather than trying to give rules.

ご飯　gohan - meal

朝　asa - morning

昼　hiru - afternoon

夕　yuu - evening

朝ご飯　asagohan - breakfast

昼ご飯　hirugohan - dinner

夕ご飯　yuugohan - supper

食べ物 tabemono - food

食べる taberu - to eat

物 mono - object/thing

食べ物を食べます。 tabemono wo tabemasu - (I) eat food

今日,居間に朝ご飯を食べました。

kyou, ima ni asagohan wo tabemashita.

today, I ate breakfast in the living room.

durendal please correct me, I'm sure my grammar is faulty.

[ErutanXiku]

You're right, I got a little too carried away! Sorry Kenji! Please, ignore my post, the one that came after Ryuki's suggestion... (I'll put a note in it)

[*Jess♥]

oh sorry EX, I edited my post to add more stuffs about eating and food.

[*Kenji Murakami]

i would find it very odd for a younger brother to call an older brother -kun.

it would suggest that the older brother was very immature and pretty useless at looking after himself.

think of dragonball.

goten will probably call gohan - 'gohan' or 'nii-san'.

in some other cases, you get teh use of 'aniki' which seems a bit more familiar and friendly.

for the younger brother, if he called him -chan, he would have to be very much older like a parent, even then it would be weird, unless the younger was very effeminate and it would certainly still be weird.

really, for the younger brother, stick with -kun or just the first name.

this is going y my own experience, of course you can always go by a precedent. look at some relationship in some anime that you wish to emulate and take teh naming conventions from that.

Well, the way I see it, those are the names they made up for each other when they were children. Considering the circumstances they're dealing with currently, the Radam invasion and all, I figured that they would need something that reminded them of better days, hence the nicknames.

[durendal]

面倒臭い [めんどうくさい]

Mendoukusai.

Troublesome. tiresome.

Kono koto, mendoukusai na - this thing, how troublesome.

If you watch Naruto, this is the favorite phrase of Shikamaru.

[Toku Warrior]

That was also the phrase that Wrath from FMA: Brotherhood muttered most of the time when he encountered something and/or someone he thought was annoying.

Now, with some of my fanfics (nearly all of them actually) taking place in Japan or having a main character of Japanese decent and using Japanese words in those stories, I find my lack of knowledge on some ways of saying a certain word and/or phrase a bit embarrassing at times.

But I do have a good question. I have noticed in many different series in anime, drama and tokusatsu that when someone addresses ones parent or the parent of a friend that many different ways of saying mother and father are used. The ones I've noticed though are:

Father:

Otou-(san, chan)

tou-(san, chan)

Oyaji

Jiji

Chichioya

Chichi

Papa

Mother:

Bib

Okaa-(san, chan)

kaa-(san, chan)

Haha

Mama

I also noticed a word that sounded like it was pronounced 'Okuro' when someone referred to their mother. Durendal, Ryuki, can I get some clarification on some of these, please?

I know the Otou and Okaa mainly so those are a dead given but how would one go about with the formal and casual way of the other words....and is Okuro a way of saying mother or is it pronounced differently?

[*Jess♥]

well mama and papa are obvious loanwords from french.

the standard japanese is haha, chichi and kaa-san, tou-san.

o- prefix is for respect, you already know that.

jiji is old man.

oyaji is combination of oya and ji. oya is parent.

I don't know where you got 'bib' from? thats not even japanese. is is bibu? or bibi?

bibi is sometimes used to call somebody a fraidy cat. probably adapted from 'baby'.

[*Jess♥]

you edited your post i think.

a bit of research brings up ofukuru as a term for mother. it's probably quite rare.

[Toku Warrior]

I didn't edit it. That was how I had heard it pronounced though I can't remember the series i heard it on.

As for the Bib, that was a typing error. If I recall correctly, I was going for Bibi which you corrected me on.

Well, thanks for the input.

[durendal]

Oh, here's a few that you might have missed and are usually used.

Chichi-ue

Haha-ue

the suffix "-ue" is a respectable form of calling a person. In this case, the literal meaning is father-up, or mother-up. It's not as polite as "-sama", but still gives a venerable expression towards your parents. I guess you can classify this as a more archaic form of "Oto-sama" and "Oka-sama". Well, the "-ue" is rarely used nowadays anyway. kids these day......

By the way, "jiji" and "oyaji" is a disrespectful way of calling your father. If you are familiar with the distinction of "Ore" and "Watashi", "jiji" and "oyaji" lies in the same level as "ore". And usually, "jiji" (gramps) is used in conjunction with "baba" (old lady), meaning they are used for old people, grandparents-like old, or for insults. These two words are the shortened version of "ojii-san" and "obaa-san" (prolonged "i" and "a") which is a more polite term. Do note that this is different from "oji-san" and "oba-san" which is "uncle" and "auntie" respectively.

[Toku Warrior]

I actually hear those two forms of mother and father terms a lot in anime now-a-days. And thanks for the extra info. It will come in very handy.

[Toku Warrior]

Hey Guys, I was trying to do this myself a bit after using Babel Fish Translator but I find that I can't word it properly. You don't need to fulfill this request if you don't want to but I wish for some help.

I'm planning on taking a stab at making a subtitled music video with the song, POWER to TEARER for a Kamen Rider OOO PuToTyra based MV. Here is what I have.

Kanji

強くなればなるほど　何のために力

使うべきか　ジャッジが　重要になるさ　(君自身の)

振りかざして　恐怖で　すべて手に入れたら...　(間違うな!)

祈る人の　中身は　ただのエゴイスト　(そうだろう?)

その瞬間　飲み込まれる　ダークサイドの危険な欲望

POWER to TEARER　心の強さ

たった今　試されるとき

破壊者を守護者に変える　その願いでコントロール

POWER to TEARER　さぁ手なずけろ

太古から続く力を

その身体に纏うのなら　喰うか喰われるかのミッション

Wow... POWER to TEARER

いつも通り　おんなじ方法じゃいつかは　(考えろ)

追い込まれて　戸惑い　その後どうする?　(逃げるな!)

イチかバチか　最後の手段　試す時だろう　危険を冒し

POWER to TEARER　挑むのならば

微かでも　光はあるさ

制御不能な現実も　チャンスはある見逃すな

POWER to TEARER　ねじ伏せてみろ

暴れだす　未知の力を

自分のものに出来たとき　次のステージに行ける

Wow... POWER to TEARER

胸の中にある　願いや夢を　闘く強く　守るんだ

これから君が進む　未来　見失うな

POWER to TEARER　心の強さ

たった今　試されるとき

破壊者を守護者に変える　その願いでコントロール

POWER to TEARER　ねじ伏せてみろ

暴れだす　未知の力を

自分のものに出来たとき　次のステージに行ける

Wow... POWER to TEARER

Wow... PuToTyra

Romaji

Tsuyoku nareba naru hodo Nani no tame ni chikara

Tsukau beki ka Judge ga Juuyou ni naru sa (Kimi jishin no)

Furikazashite Kyoufu de Subete te ni iretara... (Machigau na!)

Inoru hito no Nakami wa Tada no egoist (Sou darou?)

Sono shunkan Nomikomareru Dark side no kiken na yokubou

POWER to TEARER Kokoro no tsuyosa

Tattaima Tamesareru toki

Hakaisha wo shugosha ni kaeru Sono negai de control

POWER to TEARER Saa tenazukero

Taiko kara tsuzuku chikara wo

Sono karada ni matou no nara Kuu ka kuwareru ka no mission

Wow... POWER to TEARER

Itsumo toori Onnaji houhou ja itsuka wa (Kangaero)

Oikomarete Tomadoi Sonogo dou suru? (Nigeru na!)

Ichi ka bachi ka Saigo no shudan Tamesu toki darou Kiken wo okashi

POWER to TEARER Idomu no naraba

Kasuka demo Hikari wa aru sa

Seigyo funou na genjitsu mo Chance wa aru minogasu na

POWER to TEARER Nejifusete miro

Abaredasu Michi no chikara wo

Jibun no mono ni dekita toki Tsugi no stage ni yukeru

Wow... POWER to TEARER

Mune no naka ni aru Negai ya yume wo Tataku tsuyoku Mamorun da

Korekara kimi ga susumu Mirai Miushinau na

POWER to TEARER Kokoro no tsuyosa

Tattaima Tamesareru toki

Hakaisha wo shugosha ni kaeru Sono negai de control

POWER to TEARER Nejifusete miro

Abaredasu Michi no chikara wo

Jibun no mono ni dekita toki Tsugi no stage ni yukeru

Wow... POWER to TEARER

Wow... PuToTyra

English Translation - Babel Fish version

Pu To Ty Ra PuToTyrannosaurus

Pu To Ty Ra PuToTyrannosaurus

If it becomes strong, some because of extent it becomes power

It should use, or the judge becomes important (You Yourself) Inclination or the [Za] doing, when you insert then hand entirely with fear... (You are wrong!)

As for content of the person whom you pray the simple egoist (So probably will be?)

The instant dangerous desire of the dark side which is swallowed

POWER to TEARER Strength of heart

Now when it passes being tired

It controls in the request which changes the destructive person into the protection person

POWER to TEARER The [a] domesticate

The power which continues from ancient times

If is the 纏 in that body, the mission whether the 喰 喰 it cracks of,

Wow...POWER to TEARER

Pu To Ty Ra PuToTyrannosaurus

Pu To Ty Ra PuToTyrannosaurus

Always sort it is [ji] method once upon a time (Think)

Being driven, you are confused and after that how do? (It escapes!)

When last expedient trying, whether [ichi] whether the drumstick the danger probably of being risking

POWER to TEARER If it is too challenging

Being faint, there is a light

Chance there is also a vicious actuality, it overlooks

POWER to TEARER The screw try turning over

The unknown power which starts raging

When making your own ones, it can go to the following stage

Wow...POWER to TEARER

The request and the dream which is in the chest are protected the fighting [ku] strongly, it is

The future where you advance from now on you lose sight of

POWER to TEARER Strength of heart

Now when it passes being tired

It controls in the request which changes the destructive person into the protection person

POWER to TEARER The screw try turning over

The unknown power which starts raging

When making your own ones, it can go to the following stage

Wow...POWER to TEARER

Wow...PuToTyra!

Pu To Ty Ra PuToTyrannosaurus

Pu To Ty Ra PuToTyrannosaurus

What I would like to know is if the BF version is closely accurate and, if so or if not, can it be reworded better? If someone does help me with this then can you also color code the text just like how I have it in the lyrics above. All help with translation help and editing will be credited in the music video.

[durendal]

Are you sure you want to rely on babel fish? Just looking at the translation, I can say even without looking at the original text that it's not accurate. Would you like me to make some tweaks to it?