What's wrong with today's Rider?

[spectre555]

*Sigh*

All of this discussion could have been toned down.

About the heroes or not issue

Thing is, there are many ways to depict a superhero, or a protagonist.It just boils down to whether you like or leave it.

I would like to cite an example.

The Skullman was originally wanted to be transited to Live Action by Shotaro Ishinomori.He did'nt get it to Live action in the end.

Why?

Because, the guys told him,it would not be understood or appreciated.The Idea of an Anti-Hero in those times were mostly not widely seen yet,much less accepted.

Now, look at today,Anti Heroes are now more easily accepted.

About the Execution of the Story

Yes, this is what matters in the end, cause this is the final product you are giving to the audience.

Edited August 26, 2009 by spectre555

[durendal]

Wait, before this goes any further, I would like to clear out something. It seems that we are arguing over something that we all agree in. Everyone agrees that there is nothing wrong with the portrayal of Wataru, and what everyone is complaining about is how the show depicted the development of Wataru's personality. Being a timid wiener is fine, but it gets tiring to watch a timid wiener go back and forth. Am I correct in this?

[Toku Warrior]

Yes, you'd be correct on that Durendal.

Spectre - Good point. Very true and I can't believe that part slipped my mind.

[Tales]

Wait, before this goes any further, I would like to clear out something. It seems that we are arguing over something that we all agree in. Everyone agrees that there is nothing wrong with the portrayal of Wataru, and what everyone is complaining about is how the show depicted the development of Wataru's personality. Being a timid wiener is fine, but it gets tiring to watch a timid wiener go back and forth. Am I correct in this?

Not just Wataru but also other characters in Rider. I think it's the story problem.

And in execution wise, the newer Riders seem to be heavily dependant on some power up falling from the sky. Anyone disagrees?

Also we have a bunch of useless character that do not contribute to any story development

Edited August 26, 2009 by Tales

[Toku Warrior]

not all the power ups come from the sky. Take Blade for example. He had to use things created for his basic Rider system just to draw out the power of the cards and upgrade his suit. the only Riders to get power ups from the sky are really just Kabuto and.....well, just Kabuto. Den-O's powerups come in the forms of add-ons for the Liner Belt. Not sure with Hibiki. Kiva, Kivat and Tetsulot are living entities which help in his transformation. Agito, his powers are granted to him by his sheer will and with the help of the Overlord of Light.

Kuuga, he just evolves as he gets better. Faiz, technology that he carries in briefcases.

Remember Tales, a lot of us watch the Heisei series carefully so if you make a point on one thing people will pick it apart and make sure to counter your points with their own. I'm not meaning any disrespect but as you protect those that are the Showa Riders I protect the Heisei Riders as I'm more familiar with them than I am with the Showa's.

Of course, this debate can be considered biased in anyones view as people like things that others don't and hate things that others do. In a way I'm like Ryuki, I can't stand to watch a lot fo the older series from that timeframe.

[Tales]

Actually the only series I find pricking my eyes is Den-O, Kiva and Decade. I support the Riders before Den-O basically. So saying that I protect the Showa Riders is a totally wrong statement.

Kamen Rider Black was only a recent add to my collection. But that's becos Tiga introduced me to the series. But I have to say that Black and RX has the "Rider" in Kamen Rider. Just as Kuuga, Agito, Ryuki, Faiz, Blade had. This is something that's missing in Den-O and Kiva in this aspect. Decade managed to redeem itself but at the final episodes.

I am really sorry if I have stepped on anyone's toes. But you have to admit that there is something missing in our Riders today. I always feel that something is missing whenever I watch the newer Riders, but I cannot find the right words to describe. It's just that it doesn't feel "Rider", anyone has felt the same thing?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Tales

[*Jess♥]

i know that there's no argument about wataru, but something crossed my mind while reading that nobody mentioned and i wish to voice it.

As I'm watching Ryuki again, i notice the very strong characters in it, a particular character, toujou sticks out quite prominently. he is seem to represent an Otaku, but he represents how a lot of japanese actually see an otaku, as a dangerous, untrustworthy person.

Even when considering Asakura, I feel that Toujou is a far more dangerous person. (quite similar to ichi the killer)

Wataru seems to be a counter for what they did with that character. I think this is quite powerful..

even if they did not do a good job of showing the character, i think their choice was noble because they painted all otaku with a bad light. in wataru, there was redemption and understanding for those kind of shut-in.

okay, now I got that off my chest, I can concentrate on looking at your discussion about teh way they put across the story.

I think toku warrior has laid out a good overview of how the characters have developed.

thiking back, i do not have a lot of love for the kiva series. i haven't really analyzed it too much, but it could well be because of weak story telling.

oh, toku warrior, when tales said the weapons come from the sky, I think he was using it as a metaphor. I believe tales is referring to the writers using a sort of deus ex machina.

[Tales]

Precisely, I mean it makes the hero less heroic.

As a writer myself, deus ex machina said to be taboo

"In fiction writing, the phrase has been extended to refer to a suddenand unexpected resolution to a seemingly intractable problem in aplot-line, or what might be called an "Oh, by the way..." ending.^[14] A deus ex machina is generally undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of skill on the part of the author........................."

Wikipedia

[durendal]

So, when was the last time we've seen a rider cleverly defeat the enemy?

[*Jess♥]

I'm gonna say ryuki, but there's probably more recent.

ryuki wasn't even based on who is getting more powerful. in some ways, getting more powerful was viewed as a bad thing in Ryuki.

'becoming a hero' was certainly the worst thing! i mean, it turned toujou into a total psycho.

so in the end, defeating the enemy, came about through sacrifice.

and of course, gaining more power came with dire consequences. Asakura gained more monster but in turn, had to feed them more to prevent them attacking HIM.

[Toku Warrior]

Actually, to my knowledge, I think it's between both Blade and DiEnd. DiEnd is always one step ahead of his opponent but he gets over confident a lot so it's a 50/50 shot with him. He did do a good job at getting a one up on Jyumenki and taking his Gaga Armlet away from him. Blade was clever yet stupid by

turning himself into an Undead just to stop the extermination of the human race by the hands of the Dark Roaches.

[Tales]

So, when was the last time we've seen a rider cleverly defeat the enemy?

I think according to Spectre it was KR Black. He did destroy many opponents without resorting to a deus ex machima. He even went up against Golgom without a single final form!

As for a Heisei example, Ryuki and Blade seem to rely on whatever strategy[ "smart"], their power ups are a much later event.

Faiz is a little guilty of Deus Ex Machima[DEM] but then the thing is he seems to be able to destroy most foes without much of a help.

I am not sure of Hibiki though. But Kabuto is indeed guilty of making DEM more prominent.

[Toku Warrior]

Well, I liked both the Kabuto and Den-O series to an extent but I will say this. Both Kabuto and Den-O are power-up whores in the rider world.

[Tales]

Decade and kiva is also one big offender right?

If I was a good writer, I would put that the Zanbat drive Wataru crazy for while and he has to use his own will to control its power.

[Toku Warrior]

Decade can be but he doesn't always use another Riders' powers or forms unless he really has to....or unless he just needs to really prove a point. He fights a lot of his battles in his own form until he needs to switch tactics.

As for Kiva, yes and no. Yes because he has 5 other power up forms besides his standard suit but for Garulu, Basshaa and Dogga, the Arms Monsters are more in control of the fight as their spirits are infused into Watarus' body. If anything, Wataru overly abuses Emperor form.

I was always wishing they would have used the Emperor Bat more than they did and I do agree with you about the Zanvat Sword. I think Kiva was the only Rider besides Hibiki (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong) in the Heisei era who had a monstrous form that he could use in battle. I don't count Shin from the Showa era as he is a monster Rider.

[Tales]

And also Toei has to come up with a very very very very x infinite times good reason if Kiva is a kids show why they designed the Zanbat sword

You know why?

[Toku Warrior]

It's a good marketing strategy and it looks cool in kids eyes.

[Tales]

Err to be frank.... Sorry Ryuki if I said anything "sticky"Ok, I have friends who like tokusatsu too. They say that the Zanbat sword and the action looks like...... well...

a Man playing with his D***

Edited August 27, 2009 by Tales

[Toku Warrior]

Trust me dude, that's been noticed and discussed ever since the episode that sword was used up until the end of the series. Actually, neither the Decade summoned Emperor Kiva not the Prince Wataru Kiva had to use the pump action in the Decade series.

Anyone else but me notice this one little thing with Kiva in KR Decade? In World Arc 2, Kiva's World, Kiva didn't have the Zanvat Sword but in the the 14th world arc, Rider Taisen World, Kiva had the Zanvat sword.

Anyone else notice that little missed concept?

[Guest CompleteDeka]

Anyone else but me notice this one little thing with Kiva in KR Decade? In World Arc 2, Kiva's World, Kiva didn't have the Zanvat Sword but in the the 14th world arc, Rider Taisen World, Kiva had the Zanvat sword.

Anyone else notice that little missed concept?

also, IXA was non existent in the kiva world arc, but he was there in the rider war arc, with rising form already gained, so much so, that prince wataru was gutted that he died.

i think these things just show that the world has progressed since we last seen it.

[Tales]

Actually, to my knowledge, I think it's between both Blade and DiEnd. DiEnd is always one step ahead of his opponent but he gets over confident a lot so it's a 50/50 shot with him. He did do a good job at getting a one up on Jyumenki and taking his Gaga Armlet away from him. Blade was clever yet stupid by

turning himself into an Undead just to stop the extermination of the human race by the hands of the Dark Roaches.

Better that then the destruction of the whole human race right?

[Guest CompleteDeka]

i just has a thought... couldn't leangle of used remote to release one of the friendly undeads (shima - tarantula undead), and create a stalemate that way? then kenzaki wouldn't of had to sacrifice himself.

[durendal]

Actually, they tried that. The cards can't be unsealed once only one undead remained. They should have thought of that before they sealed all the undead. I guess the information came to them a little too late.

[*Jess♥]

i just has a thought... couldn't leangle of used remote to release one of the friendly undeads (shima - tarantula undead), and create a stalemate that way? then kenzaki wouldn't of had to sacrifice himself.

oh well, I guess I don't need to ever bother watching blade now then. a shame it was next on my list. I guess i'll find something else that I don't already know the end to.

of all the people that could give a major plot destroying spoiler, i really never expected this.

[Tales]

No no Ryuki, it's the middle parts that are interesting not just the beginning and the ending. Best way to understand or judge a show fairly is to watch it from beginning to end even if you hate it, to be fair to all shows.