Energy to Matter Conversion

[*YoungGuyver]

Your numbers only apply there if mass/matter is being generated with the methods that are known to modern science. Remember when science said that the atom bomb was impossible? When such things were merely science fiction?

You don't like how the data files explained the gravity controller and its siphoning abilities, and have stated that because it is only given twice, that we should open it up for more. How many times do we here an explanation on the frequency swords? Should we argue those too? When the vdf did cover the gravity controller, it listed its functions in several areas. And when the vdf is being vague or approximate, it is pretty good as using the proper wording for being approximate. Again, with the frequency swords, it said their length was an 'approximate 1 meter'.

But to me, I think the real part of this will come in with the parasite. It doesn't have a gravity controller. It either reverts to stored energy, a mechanism within its cells to tap boost dimension energy, or absorb matter from this universe when we weren't looking (we saw it grow without apparent absorption)

[*Jess♥]

wyrm, can you please tone down the aggression.

I won't ask you again. because we strive for a pleasant atmosphere on this forum and your attitude is making the atmosphere very unpleasant.

for the time being I am withdrawing from trying to explain my ideas to you because you don't seem to weant to listen or consider any ideas. you are attempting to break down everything when the spirit of this forum is to be imaginitive and enjoy the discussion.

I will only continue this discussion when you are willing to share ideas instead of vying to destroy the things that have been said.

this is the GUYVER science lab. not REAL WORLD sceince lab.

[*zeo]

I think we're confusing the subject and side tracking the discussion.

@YoungGuyver, it is part of scientific thought to always question assumptions. It keeps us honest and catches us when we start believing in something for the wrong reasons.

Besides, vague answers are vague because they do not provide specifics and that means many possible explanations could work. There is nothing wrong in trying to use logic to figure out what fits best. Even the vibrational swords took years of debate before we grew a consensus on how they work and even now we don't agree on the operation of the Gigantic's swords.

@Wyrm, you have some good ideas but you have to stop considering everything with absolutes. We are far from having a complete knowledge of how the universe works. Like the transition from Newtonian Physics to Einsteinonian Physics our knowledge has expanded but there is still much for us to learn.

Though we may get caught up in thinking on how things in the Guyver Universe could exist for real, in the end we must remember that it is all fictional and the rules for us do not have to apply to the subject matter.

Most importantly you have to understand the majority of board members here are all laymen and thus may not express their ideas properly. So try to go with the concept and meet them halfway. Even if they are wrong there may be something to the general idea/concept that we can all work with.

You might also want to take a gander at this article, http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg19...d-for-life.html

Now I have my own theory on how the Boost Dimension Energy System works that might appeal to you more, it at least addresses the conversation of energy issue, but lets all start to be a little more open minded first?

[*Jess♥]

Most importantly you have to understand the majority of board members here are all laymen and thus may not express their ideas properly. So try to go with the concept and meet them halfway. Even if they are wrong there may be something to the general idea/concept that we can all work with.

thanks zeo.

I wanted to say something like this myself.. but i was not sure if it would be appropriate since i consider myself to be a layman.

but i think it is a very good thing to say and works very well.

[Aether]

this thread seems to have kind of come to a halt but i wanna say, (and forgive me as i havent read a lot of this kind of stuff in a while so i may be a bit rusty) that .......

i think the boost dimension is a reservoir of pure light energy, when the guyver returns there it is energy, when it comes to our dimension it turns to matter, as does the matter it regenerates etc......

i wanted to mention wave/partical duality where energy has the potential of being a wave or a particle, ( this with real /virtual particle pairs in my opinion renders a lot of quantum theory to doo doo ).... here is the fundamental of my belief - there is no such thing as a pure vacum as aetheric energy exsists everywhere in everything( which the michelson morely experiment didnt actually disprove -they just couldnt measure it and what physicists cant measure they ignore) no matter what names you want to give sub sub sub sub sub atomic particles or forces at its imeasurable core is aether . Electromagnetic radiation interacts with a magnetic field which turns it into photon particles, (or is it Photons are the particle manifestion of pure electrostatic energy interacting with a dynamic magnetic field , but surely thats an electromagnetic wave ) , whichevers correct (sure someone will tell me) leads me to...........

believing that the boost dimension is pure energy then when the energy enters our dimensions magnetic field the energy manifests as matter in its different forms of 1. the particles, atoms, chemicals that make up the guyver organism/suit 2. the particles manifested to create energy weapons and plasma jets etc.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Eether

[*Jess♥]

wow, that is really interesting.

it sounds incredibly elegant if I am imagining your descriptions correctly.

If I am correct, it's kinda like pouring jelly into a mould?

with different moulds being designed to look like different partciles or energy types.

[Aether]

Well Thankyou.....Yeah!! i suppose thats one way of looking at it..... the 'jelly' is the pure electostatic dynamicmagnetictic energy waves and the 'mould' is the magnetic field that turns it into the photons that manifest as the particular forms of physical exsistence ( in this case, the guyver and its weapons)

[*zeo]

The nature of light would not really allow your theory to work.

Photons are primarily a virtual particle that only exists to transfer energy, it is both emitted and absorbed by matter. Since it is massless photons only travel at the speed of light and thus would never really sit still while the Guyver Unit is always linked to the host and only separated by dimension until called. So unless light behaves very differently in the boost dimension then the unit could not remain near the host if converted to a mass of photons. Photons also don't have polarity and thus would not be directly effected by a EM field, even very powerful fields only produce a scattering of light and that is because the high EM fields could cause a photon to spontaneously produce both an electron and its anti-matter counterpart, which in turn immediately annihilate each other leaving photons to travel in a scattered pattern from the original photon.

Though the analogy of using energy and pouring it into a mold to create something is still valid, it just wouldn't work with light.

The other problem is the idea that the Guyver turns into energy when in the boost dimensions, this has not been observed. G3 even experience the boost dimension when he hitched a ride along with the Gigantic. He couldn't have done that if he had been converted into photons.

Personally, I think a more elegant solution would one based on dimensions. Since the boost dimension is a dimension, though different dimensions can have different properties I think it has to be something fundamental that allows the boost dimension to provide a limitless supply of energy to all Guyvers.

Key to this would then be the difference in the number of dimensions that make up both our universe and the boost dimension.

For example if the boost dimension has more dimensions fully interacting like the 3 in our universe then the energy density of the vacuum of space would be higher for the boost dimension than it would be for ours.

The energy disparity could thus be explained by Zero Point Energy (or aetheric energy as Eether describes it).

To describe this in laymen terms it basically breaks down to the concept of a sponge. Nature abhors a vacuum after all and zero point energy is the minimum saturation of energy througout the universe.

If the Boost Dimension has more dimensions that we do then it has a higher saturation point. So similar to an object falling into a black hole anything from the boost dimension entering our dimension would lose any extra dimensions and thus like a sponge the energy that had existed in those extra dimensions would get squeezed out.

Also like a sponge any object from this universe entering the boost dimension would be exposed to those extra dimensions and thus would experience an equalization, equivalent to a sponge in water and then again like a sponge it would translate those extra dimensions into energy when returned to normal space.

This helps explains how the Gravity Orb can function as a continuous energy siphon since there will always be a disparity between the boost dimension and normal space. It also explains how it can channel and control gravity since such a link also provides gravitons from the dimensional disparity, as well as the Zero Point Energy effect since that can produce all sorts of particles, which consequently open ZPE to explain where the Guyver gets its mass from when regenerating, since many of those particles are the building blocks for matter.

The idea that dimensions can break down into energy in lower dimensional space is not new, for example the movie "Supernova" was based around the idea that 11 dimensional matter of even a few onces could break down and release the energy of a supernova. Imagine then the potential of even subatomic particle passing through.

[Aether]

OK OK i get where your coming from ...But im gonna argue anyway

The nature of light would not really allow your theory to work.

Photons are primarily a virtual particle that only exists to transfer energy, it is both emitted and absorbed by matter. Since it is massly photons only travel at the speed of light and thus would never really sit still while the Guyver Unit is always linked to the host and only separated by dimension until called. So unless light behaves very differently in the boost dimension then the unit could not remain near the host if converted to a mass of photons. Photons also don't have polarity and thus would not be directly effected by a EM field, even very powerful fields only produce a scattering of light and that is because the high EM fields could cause a photon to spontaneously produce both an electron and its anti-matter counterpart, which in turn immediately annihilate each other leaving photons to travel in a scattered pattern from the original photon.

Though the analogy of using energy and pouring it into a mold to create something is still valid, it just wouldn't work with light.

i think you have slightly misunderstood what i wrote

I was talking about the energy in the boost dimension being pure EM radiation, the magnetic field would change the EM radiation and turn it to photons it would manifest as the photons to energize the mass of the Guyver in our dimension.....

you may ask what determines the guyver shape? and i would say the original thought form of the guyver which is imprinted in the DNA it manifests (and also in its hosts mind which could explain the Gigantic and XD) as thoughts are energy waves including a form of magnetic field....

so vice versa when G3 was in the boost dimension Agitos thought forms and thought fields of what were happening in our dimension caused the energy to warp while he was in the boost dimension to be as it was in our dimension.........all very convienient but thats what im thinking

( icant wait for you to pick this apart!! )

I think much of what you said is viable even though im no way up on all this as you are ......fundamentally i do think that ZPE is the key and the Guyver has a way of consciously siphoning ( or its at least built into its being and it is aware its at its disposal) rather than it happening unawares as in our atomic structure .....if we could consciosly draw in sufficent amount of aetheric / ZPE we would be 3d immortals ( of course there are some ways to kind of mimmic this but not consciously at a sub sub atomic level)

[*zeo]

<Puts on science lab coat and thick eye glasses>

i think you have slightly misunderstood what i wrote

I was talking about the energy in the boost dimension being pure EM radiation, the magnetic field would change the EM radiation and turn it to photons it would manifest as the photons to energize the mass of the Guyver in our dimension.....

EM Radiation basically all breaks down to photons, everything from Radio to Gamma. Light is just the tiny spectrum in the middle that we can use to see with. So it would be photons to begin with and thus no need to manifest unless you think only a specific spectrum would be useful?

you may ask what determines the guyver shape? and i would say the original thought form of the guyver which is imprinted in the DNA it manifests (and also in its hosts mind which could explain the Gigantic and XD) as thoughts are energy waves including a form of magnetic field....

so vice versa when G3 was in the boost dimension Agitos thought forms and thought fields of what were happening in our dimension caused the energy to warp while he was in the boost dimension to be as it was in our dimension.........all very convienient but thats what im thinking

( icant wait for you to pick this apart!! )

I think much of what you said is viable even though im no way up on all this as you are ......fundamentally i do think that ZPE is the key and the Guyver has a way of consciously siphoning ( or its at least built into its being and it is aware its at its disposal) rather than it happening unawares as in our atomic structure .....if we could consciosly draw in sufficent amount of aetheric / ZPE we would be 3d immortals ( of course there are some ways to kind of mimmic this but not consciously at a sub sub atomic level)

Well if the Guyver gets turned into energy, there wouldn't be any DNA as that would be turned into energy as well. So that would be a one way trip. Essentially you're saying the Guyver gets destroyed and then recreated every time it gets activated. But in order for that to work the energy has to go through the host and use whatever DNA may be imbedded into the host DNA to rebuilt itself.

The biggest problem would be then that the armor would grow out of the host body and not appear around the host. So more likely to work for the movie Guyver than the anime/mange Guyver. Additionally this would also bring into question why the Gigantic doesn't instantly recharge, when Agito stole the Gigantic from Sho it barely had enough power left to fire a full powered Pressure Cannon. But if it was an energy based construct created at the moment of activation then it should have been instantly brought to full power. So I don't think that idea works.

You're thought idea for G3 would only work if the laws of reality were different for the Boost Dimension and quantum effects were essentially not limited to the normal quantum level, which in turn would make thoughts capable of altering local space. I know you don't give the quantum theory much weight but regardless of what you belief how it works it would still require the effects seen on the micro level to be in effect on the macro level.

However if that was true then the Gigantic Cocoon could have been knocked off course, remember Agito wasn't aware that the others were in Danger in Japan. He was in America when he hitched a ride with the Gigantic and Sho was for all we know not yet fully conscious. So his thoughts should have effected where they wound up but it didn't, which suggest they still followed physical rules of travel and Agito was only along for the ride. Besides going with your idea of energy conversion has the problem that there was nothing in normal space to reconstruct them back into normal matter and it is doubtful G3 would still have any thoughts if his body had been turned into energy.

Unless of course you're saying his experience in the boost dimension was just an illusion of his mind equivalent to some near death experience? But it still has the problem of what reconstructed them at the destination point.

Though I am open to the idea that the Boost Dimension is filled to an extent with some level of ambient energy, I just think it more likely it is ZPE based and thus linked to other dimensions, which means it would be limitless. Otherwise we would have to deal with energy density to explain things like the Exceed for example would require an energy density that we bring up the question why there is enough energy to increase mass to 52 meters tall for the Exceed but not enough to instantly recharge the Gigantic when it was stolen by Agito. And that the energy from the boost dimension would be eventually finite versus the infinite potential ZPE through brane multiverse cosmology allows.

The ZPE energy in turn could then produce the EM field through the natural process by which particles like electrons both emit and absorb photons. The only problem is this means nothing can go through the boost dimension, other than Guyvers. Without getting fried from all the EM and other particle radiation. Interesting concept though and would fit everything we have seen in the Manga.

[Aether]

!! ding! ding! round 4 ( Puts on dunce cap and 'i disagree with quantum theory' t-shirt) :wink:

Zeo i dont dispute what your saying to any great extent, and we could go toe t toe on each point but id be here all day typing and i think to get my theory down in a specific manner would take too long so i just wanted to reiterate that...

i am thinking of wave particle duality or wavicles....i'm saying that the PARTICLE structure of photons DOES NOT EXSIST until it enters our dimensions magnetic field so in boost dimension it is PURE radiation WAVES.

maybe this is where wires are crossed in that im insisting that the boost dimension is full of pure light maybe we could say its a resevoir of aether/ ZPE and that in its transition from there to our dimension it manifests and travels in EMwaves then when it gets here the waves warp in the magnetic field to Photons etc. etc. to form the Guyver and the siphonmg for the energy and weapons!! - there every body happy!!)

You may not be able to work my theories of thought fields into your equations ( though dont quantum dudes now know that their consciousness can sway the outcome of some of their experiments depending on their excpectations of the results?)

consciousness as you may guess from a lot of my posts is a big factor in my beliefs ( i believe in the universe being esentially created by 2 raw fundamental ingredients aether and consciousness- they are the 2 things that can not be destroyed and or can perpetually exsist)...

im sure ive used this anallogy b4 but in certain circles of thinking spirits can linger on the earth plane for a while after they die, now they are no longer physical beings , but their life force still remains in a spirit body whos charge will eventually fade like a battery and then the spirit will be in the astral realm. This energy that remains can manifest in the form of ghosts, this isnt necessarily what the raw energy looks like but its the consciouness/mind/thought of the dead entity that creates its energy to look like it did while alive essentially the same as my idea (but manifesting the light into the physical guyver) the energy remaining is warped by the thoughts magnetic field to how it wants to look ...

now the guyver organism may not be sentient but it will have a degree of consciousness that exsists in every cell ( holographic/fractal universe!) this is what holds the pattern of the DNA not the RNA or anything else of any physical manifestation.

even if we cant agree on that, even if just 1 cell of the guyver exsists in Sho it can rebuild the rest of it from the genetic memory stored in it much the way that the guyver vc=can rebuild the host as long as it has some of the host (this maybe the way that the organism can gain some advantage from having a host- that it will be able to remanifest its exsistance as long as the host is alive!?! not thought of that b4!)

whoops! wrote more than i wanted too seeyer

Edited November 10, 2008 by Eether

[*Jess♥]

eether, based on what you said about conscioussness, you might like this post i made in another topic.

http://www.japan-legend.com/forum/index.ph...post&p=8502

[Aether]

thanks Ryuki - i think im so tired i cant get my head round it now though i'll be back and contribute when ive got an hour to spare!! probably sporting my 'i disagree with quantum theory' t shirt again

[*zeo]

Okay, since energy tends to spread unless something contains it then what keeps matter in the Boost Dimension coherant?

As for thought, as I said before if thought was effecting the boost dimension then there have been some result from G3 traveling with the Gigantic Cocoon that would have resulted in them arriving somewhere else beside right above Mitzuki.

[Aether]

''Okay, since energy tends to spread unless something contains it then what keeps matter in the Boost Dimension coherant?''- zeo

I dunno the dimension is the container....what contains the dimension? i dunno - what contains the universe???

If you look at the post where i explain that thought theory again you may notice i already answered the question ( fair enough theres no solid scientific equation behind it but my reasoning is there)

Agitos thoughts of his self awareness in that situation b4 he went into the boost dimension are warping the energy inside the boost dimension to manifest as they would in our dimension....

i could also try to argue that if the thought field from our dimension is so strong that for the guyver/ the cocoon to travel through the boost dimension seemingly instantaneously that the magnetic form giving thought field holds the structure for those milliseconds as it travels through for that very short time - because the guyver is still in use where as when it is retracted the form is no longer needed....

maybe it a agree to disagree moment

Edited November 11, 2008 by Eether

[*Jess♥]

personally, I don't like the idea that the guyver is incorporeal in hte boost dimension.

I don't like the idea that all things lose their structural integrity.

but i like your idea that when energy comes in from hte boost dimension, it is manipulated into it's various forms in this dimension.

I imagine that perhaps it is like a piano.

the different frequencies that the energy needs to be at in order to form different energy particles or electrons or proteons etc.. are provided like a musical instruiment.that this universe is a symphony played in different frequencies of energy.

but anyway, enough of that.

perhaps when guyver goes into hte boost dimension, it takes the blast field with it.

not exactly, but in a poetic way. somehow when it goes into hte boost dimension, it creates a field for itself to maintain it's integrity.

so let's look at it this way...

when bringing energy over and changing it to it's various forms, the guyver is playig a grannd symphony on it's virtual organ. when guyver goes into hte boost dimension, it's like a freaking orchestra.

perhaps if an object went into the boost dimension that wasn't guyver, it would rapidly dissolve?

[Aether]

fair enough your idea of the guvers boost bubble does get around it... its roughly the same idea but the guyver doesnt return to a base energy level the bubble would be its thought form anchor for its structure...

[*zeo]

The problem with the thought aspect of your theory is you're confining it to just the aspects that pertain to whether it can support your theory and does not go into what else may result.

Human consciousness is not something that is very consistent or well defined. If for example G3's thoughts were effecting the reality of the boost dimension then it should also have effected where both he and the Gigantic Cocoon were traveling to.

Then there are the examples of the inanimate objects sent through the boost dimension. Such as the Asteroid the Creators had attempted to use to destroy the Earth. It had no thought or consciousness and is the exception that I think disproves the rule you are trying to establish.

Unless you are saying that Asteroid was manifested by the will of the Creators from the Aether of the Boost Dimension? I would suggest however that would make the Creators far more powerful than has previously been accredited and if true then why haven't we seen Archanfel perform a similar feet?

Dropping an asteroid on someone's head would prove a useful ability and there are many examples suggesting Archanfel has a very wide range of abilities including control of dimensions.