Gigantic XD weight/height ratio

[Aether]

so if you wanted to argue why the xd could put up resistance against draglords superior weight you could say it may not have been weight vs. weight but weight vs. weight + raw energy/power? martial arts will show you this is possible with energy and or body mechanics with a lighter person being able to withstand the efforts of a heavier person or even many people at the same time.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Eether

[Enzyme-eternal]

Well that would certainly explain why Exceed was lighter because energy has no weight because it as no mass only matter can have weight. As for the weight difference well almost every Zoanoid the Guyver ever grappled with had a weight advantage, then again it could just be down to “anime physics” at work.

By the way zeo, the vast majority of issues in that article don’t really apply to the Exceed. I already explained about the duel skeletal structures and musculature plus it is reasonably to assume that the Exceed hasn’t just grown but made any necessary internal alterations as well. Oh and some of the physics references where incorrect, “the weight of an animal is proportional to its volume” actually the weight of an animal or anything else is determined by the amount of mass within its volume meaning its density.

Anyway, I still think the Exceed is a result of cellular increase. As for way the power amps are active, I would say it would be to power the new weapons like the black hole cannon (and who knows what other weapons) and to maintain the additional cellular mass, which would require considerable power. I’m not saying that I can find anything wrong with the dimensional lens or super sized atomic structure theorises, aside from the fact that they stretch the laws of physics more than I like and they seem overly complicated to me.

Do we no for a fact (data files with weight data or the like) that Exceed is lighter than Dragon Lord? If we do then the reason is it down to two factors, one is that Dragon Lord clearly has more volume then Exceed (they’re about the same height but not the same brief if you will) so even if their mass to volume ratio is identical DL has more. The second factor is their composition, DL is composed of thousands of Zoanoids all fused together so it is reasonable to assume that this results in a (perhaps only slightly) denser structure then the overall density of the Exceed. I realize a lot of this is down to “ifs” but it makes the most logical sense to me.

[Aether]

Well that would certainly explain why Exceed was lighter because energy has no weight because it as no mass only matter can have weight. As for the weight difference well almost every Zoanoid the Guyver ever grappled with had a weight advantage, then again it could just be down to “anime physics” at work.

Anyway, I still think the Exceed is a result of cellular increase. As for way the power amps are active, I would say it would be to power the new weapons like the black hole cannon (and who knows what other weapons) and to maintain the additional cellular mass, which would require considerable power. I’m not saying that I can find anything wrong with the dimensional lens or super sized atomic structure theorises, aside from the fact that they stretch the laws of physics more than I like and they seem overly complicated to me.

Do we no for a fact (data files with weight data or the like) that Exceed is lighter than Dragon Lord?

you of course could be right about Anime physics though you do have to wonder why Takaya goes to the trouble of giving us the height weight etc. and making certain things happen like the constant influx of energy through the power amplifiers he could have just left it that the Guyver had grown and it would be as simple as that!

your right the power amplifiers help to power the new weapons but if yo ulook just after the boost and while the black hole weapon is charging and firing the power amplifiers BULGE indicating an even more powerful siphon of energy rather than jus the glowing which is there all the while the XD is active...

you have to define weight. there are different measures of weight for differnet things as they vary to such a degree once you get down to atoms etc. there is atomic weight isnt there? i always state that everything is made of energy so to say energy doesnt weigh anything i think would be wrong. energy must have some weight, it may take billions of light particles to become even weighable or calculable to weigh an amount but im sure you could.

yes we do have their height and weight otherwise i dont think this topic would have started....the weights and height of XD and Draglord are on the 1st page of this topic but:

Draglord

82 m

6720 t

XD

52m

2690 t

[*Jess♥]

As for the weight difference well almost every Zoanoid the Guyver ever grappled with had a weight advantage, then again it could just be down to “anime physics” at work.

gregole is 150kg

guyver is 261kg

zxtole is 260kg

derzerb is 354kg

derzerb was an extremely heavy example of a zoanoid.

why would you say almost every zoanoid had a weight advantage?

[Enzyme-eternal]

I’ll concede that the Zoanoids the Guyver actually grappled with were not that heavy (comparatively speaking however several rank and fill Zoanoids are heavier. Bonga (378kg), Bresnel (313kg), Gustav (312kg), Oranganann (301kg), Hodluff (303kg) and Grmmels (267kg) to be precise but only Bonga is heavier than Guyver 3 (the heaviest Guyver at 328kg). However that isn’t including the bulky Hyper Zoanoids so you see why I thought the weight difference applied in more cases, actually I was surprised how little some of the Zoanoids weigh.

I think, or rather I like to thing, that the reason Takaya included the details like height and weight, and everything so the reader (us) would feel more connected to the universe (the Guyver universe not some spiritual concept). Like when you watch an old cartoon something happens that isn’t possible but you don’t care because “it’s a cartoon who cares?” but with Guyver everything follows rules and has its own realism. We care HOW thinks are happening not just that things are happening…I mean we’re essentially arguing about two character’s weight for God sake! Then again it could just be that he’s an obsessive-compulsive and feels like he has to add all these details.

I think the power amps may only maintain the Exceed’s additional cell mass and weapons but when using a weapon they have to increase their power intake. You’re right energy has a weight but so does air, I mean its such and inpersevable amount that you would needs unimaginable amounts before it became detectible without extremely specialised equipment. As for the definition of weight, I think its best if we stay away from atomic weight as its very abstract and would only complotact matters plus (as I understand) atomic weight is really only used as an oginizational thing for elements. I think it would be best to stick with standard gravity weight (1G) as it’s the easiest to deal with, which it should be we use it throughout our lives.

[*zeo]

By the way zeo, the vast majority of issues in that article don’t really apply to the Exceed. I already explained about the duel skeletal structures and musculature plus it is reasonably to assume that the Exceed hasn’t just grown but made any necessary internal alterations as well. Oh and some of the physics references where incorrect, “the weight of an animal is proportional to its volume” actually the weight of an animal or anything else is determined by the amount of mass within its volume meaning its density.

You shouldn't dismiss an article by a university professor so quickly, she may not be a hard core scientist but she does know her basics better than most people. For example unless an animal is composed of material different from other animals then the density remains the same. The point of the article was to show the limits of said materials! And why you can't just willy nilly change size without some sort of consequence.

Remember most life is made up of mostly water, and water can't be compressed (so density remains constant), and she did point out things like bone density remains the same when you take a cross sample over different size animals, instead altering the design and position of the bones to compensate. Like insects have their legs mostly on their sides while larger animals have them directly underneath to directly support their weight and spread the strain along the length of the bones, as well as making them thicker. But the Exceed retains the exact same proportions as the Gigantic, so it's a straight up increase in strain.

And the dual skeleton of the Guyver/Gigantic do not solve the problem. For one thing the outer armor doesn't really form a skeleton, it does for example have gaps and nothing shows it connected to the inner skeleton so the weight would still effect all the organic material inside. You know things like getting concussions, blood vessel popping, etc that the skeleton can't protect against.

Even the skeleton itself since like the ant example in the article, just to make the Ant as big as shown in the movie "Them" the ant's joints would have to be as tough as diamonds to support the increased strain but they aren't anywhere near as heavy or as big as the Exceed, which would have to withstand far greater strains and still be able to block a Purgatorium with just an open palm.

The Gigantic would have to be near indestructable at normal size to be able to take the strain at Exceed size without a density increase. Going by simple physics of surface area versus volume.

On the surface this means the dimensional shift is a far greater possibility as it avoids most the issues of changing the size of something. I just don't think it is what is happening because a dimensional shift would effectively make the Exceed the same weight as the Gigantic, but an increase in mass is present. There just isn't an increase in density to compensate the increased strain such an increase in size would induce.

Also a dimensional shift in my mind would put most of the energy into the dimensional shift instead of being stored within the body. The biggest problem though is a matter of interpretation... To achieve the Exceed form the Gigantic did have to go full out and siphon energy continuously but once it reached full size the amps returned to normal size, this to me indicates it no longer needed to go full out to maintain that form. Second the amps again ballooned when the mini-black hole was being formed, indicating to me that the Exceed was still able to go full out and supports the previous indication that it didn't need to continuously do so to maintain its form.

So to me this means the energy is being used for the size increase but not via an energy draining dimensional shift but through a physical enlargement that uses the stored energy to make up its structure. Like a crystal version of a balloon, for an overly simplified comparison of what I'm describing. The energy supports the structure and like hydrolics it supports the structure but unlike hydrolics energy would have no upper limit and thus the Exceed can move as it normally does and would explain how it can suddenly stop a purgatorium with just its open palm as the energy would have to be greater than the energy within its body before it took damage.

The use of the same energy siphon to power the mini-black hole also indicates to me that the siphon is great enough to provide the mass needed to create a black hole, further reducing the possibility that it is a dimensional shift. And a dimensional shift should basically only effect the Gigantic, anything fired should return to normal size, like the head beam, etc as then they would be leaving the dimensional shift and returning to normal dimensions of the rest of the universe. While most of everything the Exceed did seem to indicate a direct use of proportional power and that to me indicates a straight up proportional increase in power that would not necessarily happen with a dimensional shift.

@YoungGuyver, as for the Pressure Cannon, the Exceed did not use it. The mini-black hole was a different attack that the Exceed was using to counter a Giga Smasher level Purgatorium from Dragonlord Khan. And as pointed out the Amps all ballooned exactly like they did when the Gigantic started to grow into the Exceed form.

It is also possible the 52 meters is the limit for the Exceed since Dragonlord did grow when he took on his second winged form but Exceed stayed at the same size. If it was a dimensional shift then there shouldn't be a limit.

Though this may play into what Ryuki has been pointing out with the size being about the same as the Relic's. Suggesting perhaps the cells of the Gigantic retain the capacity to grow to Relic size and just need the energy to do so, which kinda makes sense since a space ship should be relatively light for better thrust to mass ratio, as well as a conveinant method of storing energy for fuel. So may be a feature we just never considered before.

Course I could be wrong, even Anime physics is a remote possibility but Takaya has kept most things surprising close to what could be theoretically possible. So this is what I think makes sense for now.

[*Jess♥]

On the surface this means the dimensional shift is a far greater possibility as it avoids most the issues of changing the size of something. I just don't think it is what is happening because a dimensional shift would effectively make the Exceed the same weight as the Gigantic, but an increase in mass is present. There just isn't an increase in density to compensate the increased strain such an increase in size would induce.

I'm not sure if you fully got what i said, or I don't kow if what i said directly reflects what youngguyv er was saying so I'll elaborate on what i said.

The way i see it, a dimensional shift, or dimensional increase does not simply stretch out the original shape.. because what i believe is that the energy is creating a extra load of the basic elements of an atom. so let's say the neutron get's 50 times bigger.

teh atomic forces would increase in hte same fashion.. teh ability to withstand gravity would increase in hte same fashion so the way i see it if teh resistance and atoic forces are increasing along with hte size and dimensions, then the gravityu is not an issue.

teh gravitational pull is increasing as teh mass increases, the stresses increase, BUT hte counteractive forces also increase as it is not teh cells that are increasing, it is teh very atomic elements themselves.

so the mass would increase, the weight5 would increase, and teh resistance and atomic forces increase.

so no it would not stay the same weight as gigantic guyver, it would stay the same mass volume ratio.

and teh effective subatomic forces would remain hte same.

I think though at this point it becomes TOTALLY self contained. because of teh differences in hte atomic physics, no chemical reactions could take place between the XD and any surrounding matter.

[*zeo]

Uh, this basically breaks down to you solve one problem by introducing new ones...

Like guess what happens when you increase the other atomic forces? Even if you somehow ignore gravity, despite the fact it too is intrigal part of the makeup of matter and energy. We after all do have a mass increase for the Exceed, it just isn't greater than a straight increase would induce.

The force that keeps everything together for example, just to keep those larger molecules together would result in a substantial increase to things like electro-static (doesn't need a chemical reaction) force and would have resulted, for example, in Aptom being stuck to Exceed like a fly on flypaper.

Among other problems I can think of showing up...

But I could be wrong, for all I know Takaya just did a direct scale up without any concern to the consequences.

[Aether]

this is my last effort i think .....what i was saying earlier i think rather than the atoms etc. growing was that the cells would grow

i think the celluar growth would go 1 of two ways

1. there is a multiplication of the amount of cells resulting in more matter and mass ( but this simply means it would have a correct proportion of weight right?)

2. there is a magnification of the cells themselves, meaning that there would be no atomic magnifiction just that the cells themselves would need more matter to make up the components of it - so they would be giant cells.... their weight would increase but not as much as the structure they would be combining to make up ( an organ, bone etc) if there was more cells the structure would be denser with matter in this theory, its denser with energy being produced in the cell ( i was taking it back to the Bio boost mitochondria theory saying that the BB mitochondria would take up more space in the cell and the energy it siphons/produces would virtually be weightless the power would maintain the magnification and allow the XD to generate its power)

i know this is a rudementary way of working but i wanted to point out that the XD is 19.1 times bigger than the Gigantic and 7.3 times heavier (where it should be around 17.5 times heavier according to Ryukis 6900 t instead of 2900 t)

that could mean that the cells have grown 19.1 times bigger?????

Edited August 17, 2008 by Eether

[Enzyme-eternal]

First I never dismissed the article, in fact it is correct if not for some slight mix-up about volume and mass, it just doesn’t apply to the Exceed. You see the whole point of the article is that giant ants and tiny people would have to function completely differently from their natural size for various reasons but the Exceed is hardly natural. I think it does more than just get bigger, I think it alters its entire internal structure to function on its Exceed scale just like the Guyver alters the host’s internal structure.

And all external skeletal structures have gaps otherwise the thing wouldn’t be able to move, like if our skeletons didn’t have joints.

I’m sticking to my theory that the Gigantic uses the power amps to power and maintain an increase in cellular mass, it would require more power to create the new cells than maintain them which is why the amps balloons during growth. However it doesn’t just grow it alters its, already robust, internal structure to coupe with the additional strains placed on its body.

The strongest evidence for this is the Gigantic itself, at around ten feet tall a human would be subject to all manner of health problems. In fact the tallest man to ever live (so far) was only nine feet tall and he suffered from several ailments due to his height and it is generally excepted that very tall people (six feet +) tend to have poorer coordination. The point is that the Gigantic is obviously compensating for these issues so it is reasonable to assume that it can do the same for the Exceed.

[*zeo]

@Eether, I think your math is off, Exceed's 2690 tons is a lot more than 7.3 times the mass of the Gigantic (393kg = ~867 pounds).

@Enzyme-eternal, Okay... Let's test your theory...

Does your theory really explain how the Gigantic could possibly get around the physical problem of increasing size to the point that his body would be under ~6144 times the strain of his normal Gigantic body?

Does it account for the fact that the Gigantic is already less dense than the normal Guyver so whatever changes your theory entales is probably already there to begin with and thus wouldn't explain the proportional power increase? Since the same factors would already apply to the Gigantic, as you already partly pointed out with the Gigantic being nearly 10 feet tall.

Does everything from that article not apply? Like the article points out most life is only designed to have a redundancy capacity of only 2-3 times. Despite the changes the Gigantic may make, it still follows a humanoid design and thus a humanoid weight distribution.

So the problem with the Exceed is pretty much no matter what it does without a fundamental change in its makeup that there is no way it can withstand about ~6,144 times the normal strain and still have proportional increase in power as its Data File states. Otherwise the normal Gigantic would be virtually indestructable and we've seen it damaged so we know that's not true. Does your theory account for this?

What are the benefits of an external skeleton, does it double the weight capaciy and is it more for armor or a skeleton? Can the Guyver's armor truly be considered a skeleton when it doesn't even have joints, as you pointed out skeletons have at least joints but the Guyver doesn't have joints so each armor segment is on its own? Can it even functions as a skeleton without directly linking with the internal skeleton to combine weigh tolerance load? Otherwise the loads would totally different and create extra shearing force every time it moved.

We know the normal Gigantic is already less dense than the normal Guyver for example, so whatever changes are apparently an integral part of the Gigantic from the start. So a solution has to be considered for how it maintains this all the way through Exceed size. This is fundamental to our understanding of how the Gigantic works.

So does your theory really fill all this?

[Enzyme-eternal]

So does your theory really fill all this?

Well yes it does but I obviously failed to explain it right so I’ll try to address every point you brought up as clearly as possibly.

Does it account for the fact that the Gigantic is already less dense than the normal Guyver so whatever changes your theory entales is probably already there to begin with and thus wouldn't explain the proportional power increase? Since the same factors would already apply to the Gigantic, as you already partly pointed out with the Gigantic being nearly 10 feet tall.

What I meant when I explained about the issues of the Gigantic being around 10 feet tall was that, just as the Guyver alters its host internally, the Gigantic alters the host further to allow for its size increase and thus even further alterations are made as Exceed. I should point out that I’m taking the Exceed to be a new form not just a bigger version of the Gigantic even though there is no obvious external difference aside from the colour (and size).

Does everything from that article not apply? Like the article points out most life is only designed to have a redundancy capacity of only 2-3 times. Despite the changes the Gigantic may make, it still follows a humanoid design and thus a humanoid weight distribution.

So the problem with the Exceed is pretty much no matter what it does without a fundamental change in its makeup that there is no way it can withstand about ~6,144 times the normal strain and still have proportional increase in power as its Data File states. Otherwise the normal Gigantic would be virtually indestructable and we've seen it damaged so we know that's not true. Does your theory account for this?

Well we can’t really apply the biological restraints of the host if we except that the Guyver, Gigantic and Exceed alter the host when they are utilized. The problem with your second point is that it implies that the properties of the Gigantic remain the same when it becomes Exceed but that isn’t what I’m saying. In fact it is the exact opposite, the Gigantic and the Exceed are (for all they look the same) actually completely different. An example would be a cat and a tiger, they have several common traits but biologically speaking they are very separate (not the best example for this argument but it’s the best I could think of). Remember that Dragon Lord was humanoid, well close enough to make the pint that any design issues at that scale would probably apply to it a well.

If on the other hand you are only referring to the fact that the Exceed is humanoid well that only means that it has a humanoid outline and is not necessarily representative of its mechanics. Think of all the four-legged animals in the world and consider the different ways the function, barring in mind that none of them had an alien symbiotic guiding their design to the peek combat form. There is no reason a humanoid structure couldn’t function on such a scale it just couldn’t have a human’s internal structure.

What are the benefits of an external skeleton, does it double the weight capaciy and is it more for armor or a skeleton? Can the Guyver's armor truly be considered a skeleton when it doesn't even have joints, as you pointed out skeletons have at least joints but the Guyver doesn't have joints so each armor segment is on its own? Can it even functions as a skeleton without directly linking with the internal skeleton to combine weigh tolerance load? Otherwise the loads would totally different and create extra shearing force every time it moved.

You seem to have misunderstood me about the joints thing, you see internal skeletons have joints to allow for movement but an external skeleton requires gapes. If there were no gapes between the individual skeletal plates then the animal would find it impossible to move because every point of articulation would be held in place by the surrounding skeletal structure. An external skeleton is both armor and a skeletal structure except it holds things together whereas an internal skeleton holds them up, essentially they both provide a foundation for the rest of the body they just do it in different ways. I’m not sure of all the benefits and drawbacks of an external skeleton but the most obvious is that it provides protection as armor but its does restrict movement more then bare flesh would. The exact pros and cons of external skeletons don’t really matter as a Guyver has both, as for as I now this has never happened in nature for one reason. Nature tends to get ride of redundancy and a duel skeletal structure is insanely redundant but it would also give that animal incredible durability.

Well, like I said there has never been a real world example of this but an internal and external skeleton wouldn’t have to be directly connected to work. You see the internal skeleton has the muscle, flesh and organs built around it, acting as the core and the external skeleton contains the muscle, flesh and organs like skin, acting as the shell. You have to remember that the body is all interconnected like bricks cemented together so the issue of sheering is a mute point really as the body isn’t wholly dependent on one thin to hold it together. Plus we are talking about a creature that is built to survive the harshest conditions (as its original function was as a space suit), rapidly repair itself and is bounded to the bases for a weapon.

We know the normal Gigantic is already less dense than the normal Guyver for example, so whatever changes are apparently an integral part of the Gigantic from the start. So a solution has to be considered for how it maintains this all the way through Exceed size. This is fundamental to our understanding of how the Gigantic works.

Again this brings us to the fact that I think the Gigantic and the Exceed are different so even if the density of the Gigantic is integral it is still only integral to the Gigantic and not the Exceed. My theory is that the Exceed is different from the Gigantic in more than just colour and size but function as well. I think that the Exceed has weapons and abilities the Gigantic does not which further indicates that it is more then just a simple function of the Gigantic but an upgrade like the Gigantic itself.

[Aether]

@Eether, I think your math is off, Exceed's 2690 tons is a lot more than 7.3 times the mass of the Gigantic (393kg = ~867 pounds).

you think?? how polite!! you know more like!! well i obviously got kg n tonnes completely mixed up!!! lets see how totally crap my maths is by me asking if it is this then:

2690tonne = 2,690,000 kg divided by 393 = 6845 times heavier!!?? buggerinhell according to my theory they are some big heavyass cells

ive stupidly only just read the article on 3/4 scaling and the strength and bone bits of the b movie one - they are very interesting... it seems to be that metabolism and bone density is the key to all this....

can i just say that surely if humans or any other creature evolved to be a certain size would they not evolve to be able to withstand what ever pressure was exerted on the body over 100's if not 1000's or millions of years??

You could say even though evolution gives an animal its traits of movememt it only does so because of how limited they are in how they can move, so an animals body mechanics is determined by its evolution - whereas the case in point, the Guyvers evolution, is determined by its body mechanics, because of its pre exsisting stucture...

yes by the standards used to measure all the theory the XD may collapse into iteslf but... in the Gigantic and XD's case there is no limit to how it can evolve because the organism boosts and adjusts the Guyvers body to be able to maintain the Guyver structure ( wether it be G1 , Gigantic or XD) it is like an instant evolution factory, it will evolve to withstand anything it needs to create its structure....

all this said it doesnt REALLY explain where the missing 4000 tonne is?? maybe the matter it has at its disposal is limited, where as the energy is has at its dissposal isnt and for some reason it cant convert the energy to matter so just uses the energy in its place???

i dont know! heres my final thoughts !!

trying to stay roughly in line with those articles, (naively more or less ignoring any equation of tension n gravity - i'll leave that to the Guyver organism) lets say the gigantic/XD are bigger, so the Guyver boosts to have a really slow heart rate to maintain its size and the bone density is increased to a ridiculous amount ( lets say the Guyver skeleton is twice the weight of the human skeleton, it would account for 2 5ths of the weight of the xd at 1076 t if it needed more density lets put some energy in there too) so the inner structure doesnt crumble also the mitochondria ( if ive understood the scaling article) are at the opposite end of the scale so there metabolism would be a lot higher at the size of XD so that would explain the constant siphon of energy from the boost dimension to replenish the constant burning of energy and why the xd seems to be full of energy ( i think my masive cell theory supports all this- maybe ... as everything on the outside would just grow and inflate and fill with energy making them lightish whereas the skeleton would grow getting more compact and dense but would be packed more and more with energy counteracting any force of tension or gravity)

thats it, i give up

[*Jess♥]

ok, i'm sticking with the dimensional increase, because frankly i like it. this is not because i'm discounting the other ideas, but simply because they have become too complex for me to contribute anything.

ANYWAY...

what i wanted to bring to hte table is the ability for gigantic Guyver to produce a barrier.

guyver uses his power amps to control electro magnetic fields

so he could use this ability to prevent any resulting increase in electromagnetism from causing aptom to stick

among other things.

[*zeo]

Hmm, only if he had as much control over magnetic fields as say X-Men's Magneto. It's one of the reasons scientists have such problem developing nano-technology as they have to learn to control such forces. . . But that doesn't rule it out. It just require an insane level of control and the CM could solve that...

Well we can’t really apply the biological restraints of the host if we except that the Guyver, Gigantic and Exceed alter the host when they are utilized.

I disagree, the biological restraints of the Guyver may be different but we are already taking that into account. What is key in my opinion is how those changes can be applied to the whole to make the Exceed possible.

The difference in our view point is simply that I believe the difference is something that has to be there from the start and you think it is something that is being introduced. But the description of the Exceed is not as something different but of the power of the Gigantic unleashed. So I don't think a mutation exactly fits. Also the difference starts with the Gigantic, as pointed out it already is less dense than the regular Guyver. Which suggests to me that the change starts there and the Exceed is just the end result of that change.

Additionally, I see no comparison to the Dragonlord. He wasn't even really a single biological being, since his body was composed of hundreds of thousand of zoanoids. So is based on a completely different system than the Gigantic, who just grew to Exceed size. Not to mention Dragonlord had more mass, so isn't as hard to explain as the Gigantic transforming into Exceed.

I'd like to make it clear though that this doesn't dismiss your theory that the Exceed is different but your theory doesn't seem to me to take into account that the Gigantic is different to start with. So that difference is either part of what makes the Gigantic capable of going Exceed or as you suggest something new was being introduced. But I don't believe something new was being introduced, just an ability being revealed. The Gigantic has been suggested to be basically, and I'm simplifying the description, part energy construct and this is why it collapses when it uses up too much energy. The same system could easily account for the Exceed and cause the same changes you are describing but is based on something already observed with the Gigantic, just taken to the next step.

The thing with physical proportions is that physics of proportions are pretty much straight forward regardless of internal structure. You can add redundancy and extra load strain support but only so much would fit inside a body before it quickly gets to the point a radical redesign would be required to support the increased strain. This is of course eliminating changes in density that stronger materials would account for to make larger structures possible.

For example you can never make a structure stronger than if you made it all one solid piece of the densest material you can think of. So whatever the internal design, if the strain exceeds even the maximum potential of any said material then another explanation has to be presented to account for the discrepency.

So since we have a density anomaly, which is basically the lack of an increase in density and only an increase in mass (eliminating the possibilty of stronger material by density increase), it then comes to the physical capacity of what the Gigantic is made up of but also has to explain how such a design could both support the vastly increased strain of that size but also allow a proportional increase in power to boot. The combination of both is what makes the possible solution such a conundrum and I think more important to understanding what makes the Gigantic different from the normal Guyver.

The Gigantic Data File for example states that the armor is stronger than the regular Guyver's but the height to mass ratio indicates it is less dense than the normal Guyver, which is the point I'm emphasizing.

Since this change seems to start with the Gigantic and not just the Exceed that I believe it starts there, supported by other factors like how the Gigantic makes itself more powerful than the Guyver and why it collapses when too much energy is used up. But for a proportional increase in abilities the body has to stay pretty much the same to have the same range of motion, etc. You can't for example make the bones thicker without altering how the limbs move and if you look at the exoskeleton of insects the Gigantic doesn't really follow the design of an exoskeleton.

This is the same reason we have increasing problems making taller and taller buildings. You can only scale something so much and improve upon design so much before the strain counters all possible solutions and we are left with something that should not be able to stand, let alone move with proportional increase in power.

Large statues like the Statue of Liberty are hollow exactly to keep the volume mass from overcoming the surface area of support.

I know you have evolved an intricate way that you think this could be pulled off but ...

The arthropod exoskeleton is typically divided into different functional units to allow flexibility in an often otherwise rigid structure. For example, the head is a fused capsule; and the trunk is often divided into a series of articulating sclerites called tergites. In addition, the characteristic limbs of arthropods need to be jointed. The internal surface of the exoskeleton is often elaborated into a set of specialised structures called apodemes that allow the attachment of muscles. Such endoskeletal components of the arthropod skeleton can be highly complex, as in crabs and lobsters.

Gaps really aren't allowed, kinda defeats the purpose of it serving as a skeleton or even complete armor as gaps allow strain to be focused at those points and thus makes them weak spots... and your original argument was for the external armor to act like a skeleton to explain the extra load bearing capacity of the Exceed to say it was more than just armor. Though it seems you are changing it now to indicate the armor is helping just to hold things together but that still leaves an enormous strain for the endoskeleton to withstand and doesn't completely support the containment either with the gaps.

This too doesn't automatically dismiss your theory though, a radical mutation could still explain everything even if the process you descibe doesn't work another could fit based on the same premise. However, I think combined with the other observations that it is perhaps more likely that we are seeing a potential being unleashed rather than a mutation.

Well, like I said there has never been a real world example of this but an internal and external skeleton wouldn’t have to be directly connected to work. You see the internal skeleton has the muscle, flesh and organs built around it, acting as the core and the external skeleton contains the muscle, flesh and organs like skin, acting as the shell. You have to remember that the body is all interconnected like bricks cemented together so the issue of sheering is a mute point really as the body isn’t wholly dependent on one thin to hold it together. Plus we are talking about a creature that is built to survive the harshest conditions (as its original function was as a space suit), rapidly repair itself and is bounded to the bases for a weapon.

Perhaps I just know too much about biology, cause I know anything with both an internal and external skeleton would need them to work together in more ways than you are suggesting, especially if they are sharing load bearing, but then again as you said this isn't a real thing we are discussing and as I suggested other methods based on your same base premise could still make it work. . .

I emphasis that you are free to disagree with me, I'm just honestly pointing out what I think is revelant and why I don't think your theory works but as I said I could be wrong.

[*zeo]

Just to summarize, my theory is that the Gigantic augments its cellular structure with infused energy. This both explains the Gigantic's much higher power level and how the armor can be more durable with less density than the normal Guyver.

This is hardly a new idea btw, just look at other fictional characters that enhance themselves with stored energy, like Superman, etc. The basic idea being the energy charge re-inforces the internal structure of the cells giving the same net effect as making them denser would cause but without the need for an actual increase in density.

Much like hydrolics the stored energy prevents compression, which combined with the Guyver organism ability to Bio-Boost is what I think allows for the Exceed. Since such a system is not based on physical limits and thus is scalable to virtually any size and still work. Bypassing the normal limits that increased volume/mass would normally cause. So since the concentration of energy remains the same, the density of the Exceed remains about the same as the Gigantic but with all that energy it explains the proportional increase in power.

So it is basically a combination of rapid cellular growth and cellular enlargement made possible by infused energy to fill them up.

The rapid loss of energy thus explains why the Gigantic would collapse and auto deactivate if it uses up too much energy as much of that energy is needed to support its cellular structure.

I like this theory because it doesn't require anything exotic and goes with a basic principle of the Guyver technology, such as the part in which the organism merges with the muscle and bones to let them be infused with energy to make them stronger as well as increase cellular growth. The Gigantic just takes it a step further and the Exceed shows its ultimate potential.

[*YoungGuyver]

Man that was a lot of reading.

I agree with Zeo on a few points. The Gigantic has to be able to go into the exceed mode from the start of it's design process. This shouldn't be a mutation, but rather a never before seen ability. Though I will offer a reason for why I say this. When Sho was originally in the Chrysalis, he 'dreamed' of the power he wanted to protect his friends, and he dreamed of the Gigantic. We were shown a pic of his dream, and it showed the outline of the Gigantic/Exceed as it was holding his friends. For me, this suggests the Gigantic has always been capable of going into Exceed mode.

The Gigantic/Exceed is pretty detailed. It has a whole lot more than a covering of skin to hide the internal structure. If the internal structure -were- changing in order to support the form, I might expect more changes on the surface of the body, such as extra heat vents to deal with all the heat generated from the extra cells. But I'm not seeing it.

No, I don't think the Exceed is a hologram. I just think the effects of each atom/particle are being conveyed over a greater distance. Maybe quantum entanglement is a better word to use. But even entanglement is the wrong word, as it suggests teleportation, while I am suggesting that the energy in the Exceed is linking the atoms together over a greater distance. And when I say atoms, I'm being subjective. It could be the very particles that are linked by the energy, or the molecules. We don't have the exact point on the size scale to say for sure. Though maybe with more logic thrown in we could pinpoint it. I'm very tired though, and lazy.

I'm curious, what did the Exceed look like when it shrank back down to Gigantic size?

[*zeo]

The Exceed pretty much just shrunk until normal size and then the Gigantic deactivated and then the Guyver deactivated, leaving Sho standing on top of the rubble and the reporters came down to check him out.

Quantum entanglement is actually a pretty good possibility, scientists are making interesting strides in using it to make objects not seen in nature. Such as larger molecules, similar to Bose-Einstein Condensation by linking multiple atoms so they behave as a single super atom.

Quantum entanglement is not limited to teleportation, it simply means two objects are quantumly linked to the point they act as one, like mirrors what happens to one happens to the other, etc. It is the instantaneous transfer of information that can exactly mirror the original that makes it applicable to teleportation.

The only thing is quantum fields are inherently unstable on large scales but if you could increase the uncertainty factor you could apply quantum effects to virtually any size object.

An appropriate related source of research is the theory that dark matter is actually a result of the quantum field in the vacuum of space. Essentially virtual particles that takes zero point energy potential to generate the gravitational effects cosmologists are observing.

But this basically boils down to that it could be possible to create virtual matter with energy and for the Gigantic to apply it to its physical form.

[*YoungGuyver]

So there was no real energy release in any form as it shrunk? No major explosive light show?

huh. Ok. Well, I guess that's descriptive. I'll continue with the dimension increase theory then. Thanks.

[Enzyme-eternal]

Well first off, I realize I was stretching biological possibility rather thin but in my defense a Guyver doesn’t function like any other living thing, it has no working digestive for a start. However I think the infused energy idea works but I still think that there are some biological alterations taking pace as well.

If I might venture a slightly different theory though, the actual size is achieved through cellular increase and bolstered but energy infusion with some slight internal structural alterations. I also like the quantum entanglement theory and I can’t really think of any reason that it wouldn’t work just that the instability issue may make it a bit iffy for a combat oriented creature.

Something else to consider is that the Exceed’s gravity orbs where glowing to, so that might account for some of the strain. I could be possible that the Exceed constantly manipulates the gravity field around it so that the excess strain on its body is reduced just enough for its body’s structure to function and still allow it to access its gravity based weapons. A bit if a convenient answer I know but it would solve the weight problem.

I wasn’t suggesting that the Exceed was some random mutation, by the way, but that the Gigantic and Exceed where distinct like the Guyver and the Gigantic. However I still consider them all to be just upgrades of the Guyver not separate things but enhancements of the central entity.

[*zeo]

An interesting possible side note to the quantum entanglement possibility. It's innate instability could actually explain why the Exceed isn't the Gigantic's standard form. With a relative stability level being the result of the Gigantic but an act of will to change the quantum state to induce the Exceed.

So in a way the Exceed becomes a manifestation of the host will, just made possible through the Gigantic technology.

Anyway, I think we are coming to a consensus of thinking of the Gigantic basically growing and enlarging itself with internalized energy and just have to work out the mechanics of how this translates into the Exceed.

The quantum entanglement could be one method by which the cells could augment themselves for whatever size is needed and would be directly proportional to the charge of energy achieved.

Rapid cellular growth could be another, though less likely.

A scalable molecular structure that simply grows and expands as needed is yet another possibility.

Though to help YoungGuyver's line of thought, if the Gigantic can make the unit's molecular structure multi-dimensional then a complex dimensional matrix could be the basic structure and allow dimensional shift. However this could basically make the Exceed indestructible but then again it did withstand everything that Khan threw at him, even if he was almost knocked out at one point.

[Enzyme-eternal]

It is also possible that all of these methods are being used somehow, because as I see it the one thing I think we all agree on is that something that is ten feet tall growing to fifty-two meters is a complicated process. Perhaps it is too complex for any one of our theories to wholly cover every aspect of the Exceed necessitating a multi-tiered method of growth.

I will say this though about the Exceed’s apparent indestructibility, that could just be down to the Exceed being superior to Dragon Lord. However, it was never hit by its ultimate purgatorum beam and there are still more powerful enemies to face so I guess time will tell, though it wouldn’t be very dramatic to make the hero invincible.

I know this isn’t something anybody wants to hear but it is also possible that this growth method is something none of us thought of, but I’m sure that’s very unlikely…I’m sorry please don’t hurt me.

[*YoungGuyver]

I'm wondering though, with the quantum/dimensional size increase.

The color scheme of the Exceed. I know that the colors change from Gigantic to gigantic Dark, but the regions of color are pretty much the same. They for the most part are the same on the Exceed too, but with a few minor exceptions. It is the exceptions that have me curious. We see more black spots.

Now, on the Gigantic, we had black patches around the gravity controllers in the chest, his shoulder spikes, and a splash around his horn/head beam. These are all energy related devices. Could it be that these areas are energy related? That these areas are the same color because they have a material/component in them that allows them to deal with high energy?

Of course, Gigantic Dark changes color scheme, but for the most part the theme holds true. He has a few extra highlights, which is what makes it curious, and kind of destroys the theory a little. Except that the Exceed has the extra highlights that Gigantic Dark has. So was Agito -trying- to unlock everything, and got those extra highlights to unlock? Was Sho holding back being the reason why he doesn't have all the highlights in his regular Gigantic mode? It's possible, but truly only a guess.

But in any event, if the theory -were- to hold water, it would suggest that the extra black highlights on the Exceed are parts coming online to handle the extra energy. That the black abdominal plates were perhaps helping to control the Exceed size boost. Anything with extra black on it, really.

Just a thought. A flimsy thought, but at least a morsel to go on until/if Takaya ever decides to explain any of this with a more in depth data file.

[Enzyme-eternal]

The colour scheme having some relation to the function of the Exceed isn’t entirely impossibly but it could all just be a design theme for the artwork. However, for the sake of argument let’s say the colour schemes of the Guyvers and their upgrades have in-universe relevance beyond artistic design.

This doesn’t discount the highlighted areas having significance theory but it seems to me that the colour scheme of a Guyver is determined by its host (subconsciously), like the armor’s facial design. Guyver 0 was green, Guyver 1 is blue, Gigantic 1 is gold/yellow, Guyver 2 was dull yellow, Guyver 3 is black in both cases and the new female Guyver is probably purple like the OVA version. So it is a shaky theory but on the other hand it would make sense, from creative perspective, to make aspects of the Gigantic and Exceed that have importance to be visually recognizable.

I’m confident there will be a data file on the Exceed at some point but how informative it will be is anybody’s guess.

[*zeo]

I’m confident there will be a data file on the Exceed at some point but how informative it will be is anybody’s guess.

Well that's assuming Takaya ever uses the Exceed again, it may have been a one off just to deal with Khan. Though I like the idea that Sho could be unlocking some features since I thought he was holding back since the beginning.

But in any case it could take a very long time before we are shown any more details. Just for example it took up to Exceed before we found out that the shoulder pod spikes are gravitational stabilizers like the Relic has to help it fly.

Let's just hope it doesn't take another 10-15 books before we find out more stuff like that