Marvel Characters vs. the Guyvers

[Weltall2]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear on the thor vs. dreadnought concept.

I meant thor prior to obtaining the odin power.

Though that does bring up an interesting point, could dready beat Thor if thor was using the odin power. I mean from what I have seen the abiltities both of them use seems similar. I know Jason doesn't have the same knowledge thor possesses, but it seems possible fro Jason to win.

On a different but similar note. Jason and Thor have differnt approaches to battle. Jason on the one hand will use his quantum computing abilities to out think Thor and use the best tactics to defeat him. Thor because he is a near immortal would not take Jason serious from the outset to his own detriment. Anyone who has underestimated Jason has paid a heavy price, just look at W'Kar. Greg learned Jason posseses a killer instinct and drive to win against all odds. Further evidence of this is the GZ fight. Granted Jason's victory was luck. He still defeated an enemy who for all intents and pouposes was a god.

Now lets go back to jason's arsenal of weapons, one weapon inparticular might be a very good weapon to use against Thor "Quantum Reflection." Yes I know it is unstable and thus unreliable. However it would still be a nice option to keep on the table. Now I am not saying there is no way for Thor to win, I just think the deck is stacked more favorably for Jason due to the matrix. Now if Jason did not have the Matrix Thor would cream him no question.

Oh by the way on the Agito vs. Hulk fight I was not thinking a straight strength contest. But even at that Agito would lose?

[Tyranthrax]

Oh by the way on the Agito vs. Hulk fight I was not thinking a straight strength contest. But even at that Agito would lose?

In a straight out strength contest, Agito would have no chance. I don't think even Anubis, in his Warrior Rage state could hope to physically match Hulk. But because of Hulk's shear physical power, even with Agito using all of his abilities, it would be an intense fight.

[Weltall2]

I haven't been on very much due to it being finals week. However now I am free and able to post on a regular basis.

Umm, maybe I confused some people on my last post. I knew before you post Tyranthrax, that Agito would not win in a strength contest. I was wondering if Agito could use his energy weapons to at least stand a chance.

The reason I rated the fights as I did, was due to the fact a standard guyver having the ability to defeat low to intermidiate strength superheroes. I tend to classify this range in the 10-40 ton category. A standard guyver could defeat this level of ability. Now maybe I am misunderstanding how 100 men translates to tons, if so please correct me, and explain.

[*zeo]

This is a common problem with estimation as many people think of man power in terms of normal everyday average human strength.

But most sci-fi and comics like Marvel rate man power in terms of peak human potential.

Which is basically the ability to raise up to 800 pounds over one's head with arms fully extended.

Of course that's one of the hardest positions to raise a weight.

Strong man contest for examples regularly have contestants just carry 800 pounds at waist level up a short ramp. Which is an easier way to carry such a weight.

Examples of how this rating is used is the Six Million Dollar Man, who having the strength of 5 men could move a mass of up to 2 tons. Which translates to 800 pounds per man.

Marvel comics regularly use that figure as well.

Then we have the Guyver, with scenes like in the first anime OAV showing Malmut smashing a truck into the road. Considering the average mass of a truck and that Malmut was only rated at 12 men, means the Guyver series too measures man power in the peak range.

Combine this with the fact the Guyvers have all demonstrated equivalent strength levels despite having very different levels of physical training means we can safely say a Guyver has peak human strength times 100. Or at least the peak potential of the host as height, weight and leverage still count and are still different for each host.

But they should all be close to a peak of 40 tons, give or take a ton or two.

[Weltall2]

Okay, so that means Dreadnought should mop the floor with Thor in his non odin power form for certain. Jason could probably take on pretty much anybody. Perhaps Jason could even take on a cosmic being.

So given that a standard guyver is a 40 ton character, that should mean Agito is a 100 ton character. This means Agito can tangle with 100 tone characters easily given his 1200 men rating. Heck even his 400 men rating would give him that ability as a 160 ton character. That is if my math is right.

This would especially apply to characters who only have strength as their super power. I mean 100 ton characters are rare in marvel so the guyvers would steamroll over most of the marvel characters, and that is without pulling out their other weapons systems. Though it is tru I am being unfair, I mean comparing WG to Marvel they are not even the same concept, nor are they intended to ever collide, not to mention cultural differences.

But I just can't help myself, I mean Hulk, Thor, Hercules, and any other super strong character often only have fights in their own power class. Imagine a standard guyver megasmasher that at it's max is half a kiloton. This is enough to give pause to someone like Thor, Adam warlock or the Silver Surfer. Hmm how could I have forgoten about him?

[Tyranthrax]

Umm, maybe I confused some people on my last post. I knew before you post Tyranthrax, that Agito would not win in a strength contest. I was wondering if Agito could use his energy weapons to at least stand a chance.

But because of Hulk's shear physical power, even with Agito using all of his abilities, it would be an intense fight.

Really, it would depend on if Agito's weapons could even significantly harm the Hulk, who's got a regenerative level that puts most, if not all Guyver, to shame.

At the end of the Planet Hulk storyline, he survives the impact of a warp core breach, which generates enough force to destroy a planet.

Okay, so that means Dreadnought should mop the floor with Thor in his non odin power form for certain. Jason could probably take on pretty much anybody. Perhaps Jason could even take on a cosmic being.

It's not always the physically strongest character that will win the fight. Unless it's Hulk we're talkin' about, because he can probably lift gigatons, if not more weight. A single punch would no doubt splatter a Guyver.

Besides, from what I've read about Thor, he's managed to lift part of the Midgard Serpent's body, who's circumference is greater than Earth's, and that's before inheriting the Odin Force.

So given that a standard guyver is a 40 ton character, that should mean Agito is a 100 ton character. This means Agito can tangle with 100 tone characters easily given his 1200 men rating. Heck even his 400 men rating would give him that ability as a 160 ton character. That is if my math is right.

This would especially apply to characters who only have strength as their super power. I mean 100 ton characters are rare in marvel so the guyvers would steamroll over most of the marvel characters, and that is without pulling out their other weapons systems. Though it is tru I am being unfair, I mean comparing WG to Marvel they are not even the same concept, nor are they intended to ever collide, not to mention cultural differences.

But I just can't help myself, I mean Hulk, Thor, Hercules, and any other super strong character often only have fights in their own power class. Imagine a standard guyver megasmasher that at it's max is half a kiloton. This is enough to give pause to someone like Thor, Adam warlock or the Silver Surfer. Hmm how could I have forgoten about him?

But no, Guyver wouldn't 'steamroll' over most of the Marvel characters, because if they don't have ridiculously immense strength, they've got other powers that given them an advantage in battle.

Also, the Mega-Smashers are really around 10-kilotons of force at max.

[*zeo]

But because of Hulk's shear physical power, even with Agito using all of his abilities, it would be an intense fight.

Really, it would depend on if Agito's weapons could even significantly harm the Hulk, who's got a regenerative level that puts most, if not all Guyver, to shame.

At the end of the Planet Hulk storyline, he survives the impact of a warp core breach, which generates enough force to destroy a planet.

Yup, in a fair fight the Hulk would most likely win. But who said Zeus would fight fair.

For example the Hulk can only hold his breath for about 2 hours. So all Zeus really has to do is teleport him into deep space and wait 2 hours

Besides, from what I've read about Thor, he's managed to lift part of the Midgard Serpent's body, who's circumference is greater than Earth's, and that's before inheriting the Odin Force.

Yes, Thor has the strength of a Demi-God so is basically as strong as the modern version of Superman (John Byrne created version in which they lowered his strength to being able to lift mountains instead of planets).

Ditto with Hercules and others with stated god like strength.

But no, Guyver wouldn't 'steamroll' over most of the Marvel characters, because if they don't have ridiculously immense strength, they've got other powers that given them an advantage in battle.

Also, the Mega-Smashers are really around 10-kilotons of force at max.

Yes the Mega Smashers are actually around 10 kilotons in power. Weltall2 is just thinking of the old power scale for the smashers before we did the math and found out it actually needs 10 kilotons of energy to vaporize a small army of zoanoids.

The 500 tons was a rough estimate according to the stated power of the Mega Smasher being able to destroy a skyscraper and because the anime led us to believe the beam duration was a lot longer than a one second blast as the new anime now shows the duration actually is.

We were just being conservative with what little we knew back when we first started this site.

Just like we originally only estimated the Gigantic as only 2x a Guyver because we had never seen it demonstrate anything truly spectacular. But we now know the Gigantic is a lot more powerful. Which is part of the reason why we are doing the Chronicle story line as what we know has changed a lot since the fan fic first started.

And you guys are both right. The Guyver would easily handle many of the Marvel characters but it is also true even the less powerful characters have abilities that could challenge even a Guyver.

Mutants for example, someone like Colossus is easily 2x as strong as a Guyver and equally if not more durable.

Cyclops, optic blast may not be as powerful as a Mega Smash but they are more powerful than Pressure Cannons and he can fire optic blasts a lot faster and more accurately.

Banshee could actually knock out a Guyver due to their vulnerability to sonics.

Night Crawlers teleporting ability would allow him to get to the Guyver before the Hyper Sensors can warn the host. So can do things like plant bombs and teleport away or grab the Guyver and teleport it to somewhere dangerous.

And if Jean Grey was ruthless enough she could just read Tetsuro's mind, find the Guyver's vulnerability and telekinetically rip out the Guyver's CM from a safe distance.

And of course the X-Men would work as a team so even though the Guyver may have a chance with each of them. Together they will take the Guyver down every time.

[Weltall2]

Wait a minute I am confused. I thought Thor and Hulk were 100 tons, and yes Hercules too. At least last time I checked. So characters like Jason for one should have more than enough power and skill to defeat them. Also for the most part Thor's fighting style revolves around his brute strength. For example he does not employ martial abilities. Additionally Jason to my best knowledge has greater fighting experience against high level opponents than Thor. And to continue on that concept Jason also employs his psuedo precognitive abilties, and his other matrix based powers to the fore. The matrix give Jason a commanding edge against almost any foe. While we are on the subject of super powerful beings from WG universe, let us throw in the Kavzar element. These being are unrestricted by ethics and morals. They will just follow commands given by their masters with ruthless efficency.

Jason would probably avoid needless deaths and casualties if the given situation allows and he feels generous.

I would also like to ask. How am I reading this wrong. Last I checked the Hulk was not able to lift gigatons. When did the strength levels change for many of these characters.

[*zeo]

No Marvel power scale goes as follows

Level 1 = normal strength (can lift own weight or less)

Level 2 = peak (can lift own weight up to 800 pounds)

Level 3 = enhanced (can lift 800 pounds to 2 ton range)

Level 4 = 2 to 10 ton range, characters like Spiderman are in peak end of this range.

Level 5 (Class 50) = 10 to 50 ton range, characters like Marvel Girl, etc.

Level 6 (Class 100) = 50 to 100 ton range, characters like the Thing, Colossus, etc are in this range.

Then there class 7 which is 100 tons to infinite range. Thor, the Hulk, Hercules, and Silver Surfer are all in this last class.

The Hulks base strength level (when he's calm) starts at 100 tons. As he gets madder the stronger he becomes.

Remember the Hulk can break Adamantium when he's enraged enough and Adamantium is virtually unbreakable.

Only the Grey Hulk was below 100 tons in starting strength.

And as for Thor, as a demi-god his power is such that he doesn't need much more than brute power. Besides which Many of Thor's enemies are more powerful than even a Guyver Zoalord.

[Kamui de' Tempest]

This is just to further examplify Zeo's point http://www.marveldatabase.com/Strength_Scale

[Weltall2]

Okay still Jason Has beaten a Guyver Zoaloard albeit by a great deal of luck. He still beat the Zoalord, and that was in his weakest incarnation. So wouldn't it at least be possible for Jason to beat this 100+ class of opponent.

[W'Kar]

I believe so. After all the most deadly weapon is intelligence and strategy.

[Tyranthrax]

Okay still Jason Has beaten a Guyver Zoaloard albeit by a great deal of luck. He still beat the Zoalord, and that was in his weakest incarnation. So wouldn't it at least be possible for Jason to beat this 100+ class of opponent.

I think the ONLY way Jason could beat the Hulk is using his Matrix Bomb. Hulk has survived a ground zero nuclear explosion, and as I'd posted before, a warp core breach that's powerful enough to destroy a planet.

Also remember, the ONLY reason Jason beat the Guyver Zoalord was because of the gravitational energy he got from countless Guyver and the Guyver Zoalord himself.

Now, here's an excerpt from one of the Hulk's datafiles.

The Hulk has shown many incredible feats of the years, including holding up a 150 billion ton mountain during the Secret Wars and breaking open Onslaught's armor when the combined might of the rest of the world's heroes couldn't even make a scratch in it.

Oh; for those of you who don't know.

150 billion tons = 150 giga-tons.

[largo]

I feel it's my duty to say that we are nothing more then rehashing a former topic. We even went over this same exact fight between Dreaddy and Hulk.

[*zeo]

True, the Hulk is one of the most powerful characters in the Marvel Universe but he does have his weaknesses.

Aside from his numerous psychological problems, which have changed over the years.

The Hulk is still based on a human body. So he has limits like he still needs to breath, though his power does allow him to hold his breath for up to 2 hours.

And his power is based on Gamma energy, so his metabolism is a bit like an atomic furnace. So in addition to his own energy generation he can also absorb ambient radiation to increase his power.

But this also means he can also be drained of energy as has been shown in the past.

The X-Men Havok once nearly defeated the Hulk by absorbing his gamma energy and then firing it back at him all at once.

Fortunately for the Hulk that was a bit like fighting fire with fire so he survived it since he re-absorbed most of the energy.

It also takes time for the Hulk to get mad. So a sufficiently powerful opponent can defeat the Hulk if they defeat him before he gets a chance to get mad.

In the Marvel vs DC mini-series Superman defeated the Hulk that way by just going full out and knocking him out before he could get mad enough to be a problem.

Course not too many characters can dish it out like Superman can but if they catch the Hulk when he's relatively calm then there is a chance.

The Hulk's rate of regeneration is also proportional to how mad he is.

So it is conceivable for Dreadnought to win with the Matrix Bomb by just teleporting in while the Hulk is still calm and vaporizing him before he could even blink. But of course since the Matrix Bomb is a 100 Gigaton explosion of energy that he would pretty much assure the extinction of all life on Earth so that would probably not be his first choice.

Dreadnought might be better off draining off the Hulk's gamma energy and then use a non-radiation type weapon to finish the Hulk off. But he would have to be fast as the madder the Hulk gets the faster he generates energy.

Course not even the Hulk can survive a Black Hole and Dreadnought can teleport the Hulk just about anywhere

Or just turn the oxygen in the Hulk's body into something less useful with a little molecular manipulation

There are many possibilities. It's just in a straight fair fight there is no way to defeat the Hulk.

[Juggernought]

Well i think for anyone to even want to fight the Hulk, he would have already been in a mad state and a proven threat to envoke retaliation from whoever you want fighting against him.

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

I agree with Allen, the most deadly weapon can be intelligence and cunning. You can also outsmart yourself in battle. And I do recall seeing the Dreadnought v. Hulk topic, though it was a while ago.

It's not like a Guyver would always lose against a Marvel, or vice versa. Particularly if one is stronger than another, sometimes it could come out as a draw. Example: Agito going as Guyver 3 against the Hulk. Agito wouldn't necessarily lose, and the Hulk win. Remember, at some points, the Hulk ain't exactly Einstein. Yeah, one out powers the other, but the other has a vast intellect and quite a bit of cunning to make up for it. So, it's not like it's a completely one-sided fight. Nor would say pitting Spiderman against Dreadnought.

Wait that is a bit one sided.

Sandman v. Guyver wouldn't necssarily be cut and dried either. See? It's not all about brute strength.

Anyway, waiter! Check please!

[*zeo]

Well that depends on which version of the Hulk you are referring since more than one version had Banner's genius intellect.

[Tyranthrax]

Particularly if one is stronger than another, sometimes it could come out as a draw.

That is true. It's not always the one with brute strength that wins the fight.

Example: Agito going as Guyver 3 against the Hulk. Agito wouldn't necessarily lose, and the Hulk win. Remember, at some points, the Hulk ain't exactly Einstein. Yeah, one out powers the other, but the other has a vast intellect and quite a bit of cunning to make up for it. So, it's not like it's a completely one-sided fight.

With that example, actually, it would be a one-sided fight. I believe the only weapons a normal(Assuming it's standard Guyver 3, as you'd not put Warrior Guyver 3) Guyver has that could even hope to harm Hulk would be the vibrational blades. Even the Mega-Smashers are rated at some 10-kilotons of force, while the atom bombs dropped on Japan were in the 20-kiloton range. Not to mention Nuclear Bombs are more powerful than Atom Bombs, and Hulk has survived a ground zero nuclear explosion with NO damage at all. After a few cuts though, I think Hulk would have gotten mad enough that not even the VBs could phase him.

The Hulk is still based on a human body. So he has limits like he still needs to breath, though his power does allow him to hold his breath for up to 2 hours.

Actually, from what I've read:

# Enhanced Lung Capacity: The size and strength of the Banner's lungs, like the rest of his body, are increased when he transforms into the Hulk. On a single good inhalation of air, Hulk can last hours--perhaps even days--without needing to take another one. This makes it possible for him to spend an extended period of time in outer space, or under the ocean. The Hulk has also used his lung capacity as an offensive weapon in several instances by inhaling, and then blowing the air back out at high speeds.

# Adaptation to Hostile Environments: There have been several instances in the past where Hulk has not only spent extended periods of time underwater or in oxygen-less outer space without suffocating, but he has also moved his mouth and spoken in these environments. It appears that the Hulk's body is able to adapt itself to new inhospitable environments when necessary. Like his healing factor, it is believed that this ability is also fueled by his rage and the madder the Hulk is, the quicker the Hulk's body will adapt.

# Underwater Breathing: The Hulk has been seen on the ocean floor a number of times and is able to breathe due to his body developing a gland which creates an oxygenated perfluorocarbon emulsion which fills his lungs and equalizes the pressure. He is therefore able to breathe fluid and avoid decompression and nitrogen narcosis.

[Weltall2]

If you are talking bombs I don't think the hulk would survive a nuetron bomb, and or nuetron radiation. This is the type of thing you would use to wipe out a population while at the same time leaving the infrastructure intact. I will give a short explaination for those who want to know.

Nutron Radiation Vs. Biological matirial results in total vaporization of said material.

Nutron Radiation vs. synthetic material results in the survival of the material.

Now as far as I can tell Biological organisms can not survive against this method.

[*zeo]

The Hulk can withstand any type of radiation, even Gamma radiation which is the strongest type. Mainly because he can absorb it like a sponge.

A Neutron Bomb is basically a radiation bomb, which is why it can destroy organic material. But just like Godzilla that just makes the Hulk stronger.

Really, the Hulk is an example of an insanely powerful character.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Guest

[Weltall2]

Interesting. Okay well how eould this type of radiation work on a character like Thor. I mean it isn't like he has Hulks ability to absorb radiation like Hulk.

This poses another interesting point. Albieit off topic somewhat. How would a nuetron bomb affect the outcome of the Earth vs. Asgard war few years back.

[*zeo]

Thor is a demi-god and virtually immortal. All those who have possessed his power have been similarly enhanced and could do things like fly through space, etc. So cosmic radiation was never a problem and Thor has been hit by energy beams with little to no effect.

Not to mention Mjolnir can also be used as a shield. So a Neutron bomb would probably be useless on him too.

But the Human Thor's did have one weakness. Seperate them for more than a minute from Mjolnir and they revert to their human form.

[NeoAptom5]

Iron Man can only reach the +100 class if properly supplied with energy. Without it he rates as around a 90 class. Click here to see what I'm saying. http://www.marveldatabase.com/Iron_Man_(Tony_Stark)

And also, the liquid like under suit he wears in the armor isn't SKIN as SKIN is succeptable to Ultron, which is why he abandoned that armor design and opted for the Tin Man Armor afterwards. It is in fact the actual undersheath that has been supercompressed and stored in the hollows of his bones (as stated in Iron Man vol4 #5 pt.5 of 6 of the Extremis 6 parter and also stated at this web link http://www.marveldatabase.com/S.K.I.N._Armor).

I really don't see the Guyver having much of a tough time with Tony. Granted, Tony is almost Omnipotent when it comes to manipulating the Infosphere(for lack of a better word), but the Guyver doesn't run by electronics, radio wave, or satelite linkage. If it was Cyber Guyver then there would be contention, but the regular Unit G is pretty much thought run'd. Even the way they communicate with each other through the organisms on there back is purely telepathic, again no short rf burst or UHF transmissions.... just thought. There's no real way for Tony to gain access to the CM without being telepathic instead of being technopathic.

http://www.marveldatabase.com/Wolverine_(James_Howlett)

(here's alittle look at Wovies abilities. Someone should come up with a wiki for the guyver like this )

And as far as the Wolverine vs. Iron Man regeneration. In the Civil War story line, Wolvie was blasted by Nitro to such a degree that he had now muscle, neverous, or epidermal system left. All that remained was his skeleton, his eye's (not really sure how they survived), and his brain. Inside of a hour or two he regrew his ENTIRE body. That's very impressive even by Guyver standards. Full regrowth from a CM takes up and over 11 hours, Wolvie did it in +2. Iron Man made a comment (more of a challenge) to Wolvie to see who healed faster, but never made good on it( also in the Civil War arc). Don't get me wrong... I love everything Marvel and I'm not biased either way, they are both charecters I have come to enjoy quite thuroughly, But in all fairness in a Guyver vs Iron Man... I'd have to say that the Guyver wins ( it might be a good fight, but the Guyver has it. If it was a protracted battle and the Guyver didn't use Megasmasher after activating the Blast Shield in close proximity it might be different.) And a healing contest between Wolverine and Iron Man... well my monies on the Old Man, Bub.

Stanard Guyver 1 vs Current Iron Man = Iron Man the Winner.

Gigantic Guyver 1 vs Current Iron Man = Tie. Both are very very powerful.

Ultra-Gigantic Guyver 1 (60 meters tall) vs Current Iron man = Guyver 1 for the win.

It all balances out.

Standard Guyver 1 has 100 times the strength of a normal human. Which places him around Spiderman strength (10 tons).

Iron Man hovers around 90 to 95 tons at present.

Guvers' biggest advantage is the Megasmasher though. As far as we know, the mega-smasher could be High Powered in Marvel term to Extremely Powerful. Somewhere between Cyclopse's Optic beam to Silver Surfer blasts. Where exactly who knows. Far as we know Iron man's Force Field and Energy Absortion device might be able to save IM from destruction. Might

[NeoAptom5]

Thor is a demi-god and virtually immortal. All those who have possessed his power have been similarly enhanced and could do things like fly through space, etc. So cosmic radiation was never a problem and Thor has been hit by energy beams with little to no effect.

Not to mention Mjolnir can also be used as a shield. So a Neutron bomb would probably be useless on him too.

But the Human Thor's did have one weakness. Seperate them for more than a minute from Mjolnir and they revert to their human form.

Just wanted to point out. THOR is a GOD, not a Demi-god. Thor is 100% God blood. Da is Odin, Mom is the Elder God (Titan) Gaia.