Guest Posted April 28, 2003 Posted April 28, 2003 I have thought long and hard about this topic and I have found many flaws in vibrational swords and any other vibrational weapon. 1. Plasma vibro swords would disintegrate, plasma is the hottest possible thing on earth and can even melt titianium with ease and no matter what substance or bio-substance or if the bio-substance is EXTREMELY heat resistant it would be at least be damaged.The most probable effect if they wouldn't be disintegrated would be the swords would melt due to the already vibrating molecules the heat would only make them vibrate faster and melt into a pile of goo. 2. Vibro-whips-it would be impossible to make a malible yet vibrational material that could actually swing a person. it would be too unstable. Also, the vibrations at the ends wouldn't be as strong as the vibrations at the start. 3. All Vibro-swords-if 2 vibrational swords hit each other it is possible there molecules would not collide due to the larger spaces between the molecules or slide past them given time. If someone were to slice at a solid object such as a large solid wall hard enough and then leave the swords in the wall for a while it is possible when they take the sword out, it could get some of the walls molecules stuck in the sword and vice versa with the wall, so if someone continuesly used there swords and could not regenerate them, such as a robitic suit (ie. green armor) the swords would wear down eventually. well thanks for reading, i hope you reply.
*zeo Posted April 28, 2003 Posted April 28, 2003 Hmm, well Inferno128 On point 1- that depends on the how the plasma is channeled. If simply channeled around the blade then no problem. If internal it will still depend on how the plasma interacts with the sword material. For example of a natural plasma phenomena, the surface of the sun is cooler than just a little further out where the temperture jumps from 6,000 to over a million. Only if the heat directly interacts with the molecules of the sword would it cause it to melt and vaporize. On point 2- Vibrations along a vibrational material does not get weaker unless a counter force is applied to it. Even if it did the length of the whips are not long enough for a significant drop of vibrations to occur with the high powered vibrations these weapons uses. On point 3- Vibrational swords vibrate as a single mass, they do no vibrate to point the molecules become free floating and phase through objects. Wear and tear would come from natural abrasion if the material comes into physical friction with another material such as another sword but the shockwave produced by a Guyver type vibrational sword would prevent that for all but other vibrational weapons. Though this may be true for plasma swords.
Guest Posted April 28, 2003 Posted April 28, 2003 You also forgot to add the fact that Enzymes blood can easily melt a Guyvers Vibrational Blade.
Guest Posted April 28, 2003 Posted April 28, 2003 Actually it might be possible to make something like a vibro whip with nanotechnology, or at the very least something that has a simialer effect.
Guest Posted April 28, 2003 Posted April 28, 2003 thankyou zeo1234 you really cleared things up especially point 2, yet now, I am left with 1 more question, wouldn't the shock wave from the vibro swords move the blood (enzyme) around the sword so that it does not tuoch it? and if 2 plasma swords collided wouldn't they vaporize or melt each other?
*zeo Posted April 29, 2003 Posted April 29, 2003 Shockwave would provide some protection for the swords as long as contact is not too prolonged, shockwave is mainly at the swords edges so less protection for sides, but that would not protect the hilt/base of the swords where the sword usually gets melted off from. Depending on how the plasma swords work, there are more than one type after all, the same mechanism that allows them to use the plasma energy would also protect them by helping to deflect the the energy of the attacking sword. and yes, nano tech can be used to make a sword that can cut through stuff as easily as a Guyver vibrational sword. I.E. The Nano Sword from the Game Deus Ex. or something using a mono filament. Nano tech could also be used to create vibrational material and duplicate just about everything the Guyver is capable of doing, depending on the how advance the nano tech is.
Guest Posted April 30, 2003 Posted April 30, 2003 being real quick, but another point. Plasma isn't always gas. If you check a text book, it is called the fourth state of matter, capable of existing as solid liquid or gas. (personally I think it is weird to think of it as a fourth when the other three are it's base) Plasma is basically matter where the valence (outer shell of electrons) in atoms are completely shared. Technically, a sword can be made of solid plasma material. How difficult would this be to make do you wonder?
*zeo Posted April 30, 2003 Posted April 30, 2003 Err wrong and too simplified... Okay, quoting from the text book; "Plasmas consist of freely moving charged particles, i.e., electrons and ions. Formed at high temperatures when electrons are stripped from neutral atoms, plasmas are common in nature. For instance, stars are predominantly plasma. Plasmas are the "Fourth State of Matter" because of their unique physical properties, distinct from solids, liquids and gases. Plasma densities and temperatures vary widely. Plasma temperatures and densities range from relatively cool and tenuous (like aurora) to very hot and dense (like the central core of a star). Ordinary solids, liquids, and gases are both electrically neutral and too cool or dense to be in a plasma state. Plasma consists of a collection of free-moving electrons and ions - atoms that have lost electrons. Energy is needed to strip electrons from atoms to make plasma. The energy can be of various origins: thermal, electrical, or light (ultraviolet light or intense visible light from a laser). With insufficient sustaining power, plasmas recombine into neutral gas. Plasma can be accelerated and steered by electric and magnetic fields which allows it to be controlled and applied." There is no such thing as a solid plasma material. It is only capable of existing as one of the other states of matter if it is cooled down into one of those states. The universe was created with a big bang, plasma was the first form of matter (The other states of matter were created when the plasma finally started to cool down) and is still the most common form that matter takes in the modern universe.
Guest Posted May 10, 2003 Posted May 10, 2003 "Plasma Plasma is still another state of matter, one which does not occur naturally on earth or on our sister planets because it requires a great deal of heat. Scientists have been able to produce this plasma under very special conditions in their labs. In plasma, the atoms have absorbed even more heat energy, and are now ionized. This means that many of the atoms have lost electrons, which are now loose in the plasma." http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/course ... tates.html In short, plasma is created by heat. It is the high energy state that frees up the electrons. http://www.krysstal.com/states.html take a look at the diagram midway down the page. Solid, liquid, and gas are not just expressed by average energy (temp), but by the pressure that is applied on them as well. Some materials may have high enough energy and yet be under enough pressure to exist as solid and liquid plasma. Please don't make me look under my school notes, that was years ago, and the're either thrown out, or in storage. Gaseous plasma is really common though, pretty much the only one found naturally that I know of. That doesn't meen that you can't have a solid plasma sword, but it's your invention, so you get to pick and choose.
*zeo Posted May 10, 2003 Posted May 10, 2003 Sorry but by definition "Plasma is a gas that is so hot that it has ionised. The gas is electrically charged and is affected by magnetic and electric fields." Pressure can only be applied with some form of containment and is by definition not allowing the matter being contained to act normally. Also if you increase pressure then it will cease to be a plasma because we're basically talking about the vibrational state of matter and pressure counters that. The more energy applied to any form of matter and the more it vibrates but the more pressure applied to the matter then the more the atoms are pushed together and the harder it becomes for the matter to vibrate. The chart YoungGuyver refers to only shows how pressure can alter the transitional point for each form of matter. I.E. changing air pressure can alter the temp for water to boil and change it from liquid to gas. Just so everyone understands this the universes is based on entropy and started out in a super heated state so plasma is the most common form of matter in universe. The conditions here on our relatively cold planet is not the norm for the universe YoungGuyver, which is what I said before and why you shouldn't think of plasma as strange in any way. It clearly has defineable properties that are different from other forms of matter. Besides, planets make up a very small percentage of the universe present mass. Yes, plasma can be created by increasing the heat of matter here on Earth but that is the form that matter originally existed as before it cooled down. Remember all the matter on this planet came from the Stars. The only thing that can be done to plasma to make it seem solid is containment. The plasma itself remains gaseous no matter what as long as it remains as plasma. Sure you can compress plasma until it takes on the other forms of matter but it will not be plasma anymore when you do so. If you don't compress it to that point and you lose containment then the plasma would just spread out like a ionized gas. It would not remain in any one shape without containment unless you provided enough pressure to turn it into one of the other states of matter. For example if you apply enough pressure you can turn oxygen into a metal and it will remain in that state when you remove the pressure. But it would no longer be gas but a solid. Though there are examples of matter exhibiting more than one state of matter simultaneously but these are extremely hard to make and only occur under specific conditions and with specific combinations of elements. Plasma always remains in a gaseous ionized state as long as you can classify it as plasma. So there is no true form of solid or liquid plasma. So any form of plasma based weaponry will need some form of containment if it is to be used as anything more than a super hot flame thrower. Clarification though, Plasma swords of the type being discussed here are an invention of Allen's GWOTG fan fic site. No character from the WG site has ever used one and is thus not my invention.
W'Kar Posted July 12, 2003 Posted July 12, 2003 Plasmaswords in the GWOTG fic works like this A very strong vibrtaional material (with W'Kar, slightly stronger than a Warrior Guyvers blade) is infused (outside and inside) with solid plasma. Essentailly the blade gives off little heat except on contact with something, which gives it great cutting power. Ask James for some explantion on how Solid matter may exist, Allen is a historian and writer, not a scientist.
McAvoy Posted July 12, 2003 Posted July 12, 2003 I thought W'Kar's blades are slightly stronger than a Gigantic's blade (2x+) while a Warrior Guyver's blade is 4x. Dreadnought's blades are defintely stronger than this, more like 25 to 40x plus. So technically wouldn't the solid plasma give it great strength as well? Otherwise, Dreadnought's blades should have easily cut through W'Kar's blades as weasily he did it to Dreadnought (the first time).
*zeo Posted July 13, 2003 Posted July 13, 2003 Well, like Allen said he's a historian, not a scientist, so a lot of what goes into his fic is more for the coolness factor than sci-fi based. Scientifically solid plasma by definition does not exist as otherwise it wouldn't be the 4th state of matter but plasma can be contained and with containment be made into solid shapes. I'm a stickler for accuracy of terminology so I argued a bit with Young Guyver on that distinction but it doesn't really matter for a fan fic. So suffice it to say it acts like a solid when used by W'Kar (think something like the energion cubes from the original Transformer series-under the right conditions (magnetic fields) plasma can act like that). W'Kar has plasma swords, which in the GWOTG heirarchy is the second strongest(used to be the top) class of swords-next to the plasma type that Anubis uses. The sword type that is placed above Gigantic is Bio-Swords, which is the class that Allen compares to the WG sword type for strength. Plasma is above that in strength but what is not mentioned is how the users power level factors in. So strength indicated for a plasma sword is just its base level and does not take into account how a users higher power level can make it even stronger as it is basically an energy sword and the more energy is channeled then the stronger the sword becomes. It's really just a matter of energy concentration. As strong as the WG type swords are they don't have the energy concentration of a plasma sword. So a plasma sword can overcome the vibrational energy of a WG sword and cut through it. At least for the first time, as even a normal WG can adapt and use its body shield-similar to how it adapts to enzyme acid-to help deflect the plasma energy but the power of the user also factors in. So Yes, Dreadnought's swords are more powerful than a normal WG but they are still a none energy type so W'Kar still had an advantage. Also W'Kar was about as powerful as Dreadnought so his swords had a lot of energy to counter. So they were still able to cut through Dreadnought's swords until he adapted and countered the plasma energy.
Guest Posted July 15, 2003 Posted July 15, 2003 THANCRUS - you know, the HZ5 guy whose life centered around his swords - described his vibro-blades as "a collection of micro-fine pleats that vibrate at high frequencies". Nothing to do with plasma. When his blade collided with the Guyver?s sword. the result was an unbearable high-frequency sound, from which Thancrus concluded that the Guyver has the same type of high frequency swords. So... would it be justified to describe the Guyver?s "sonic swords" as such: A collection of stacked, hyper-thin (perhaps one molecule) sheets that are suspended in a zero friction matrix which nevertheless keeps them together in the shape of a sword, vibrating at incomprehensible speed to render each and every one of them into a sort of "solid sound wave", vibrating at just the right frequency to resonate with solid matter, and rip it apart without actually touching it? Each of the "sheets" could in fact BE one single molecule, capable of freely moving in two dimensions, yet being held together with the others by aformentioned shape-matrix. This could account for the immediate shape-changing of the blade: it is merely the collection of molecular blade sheets folding and unfolding, like an umbrella.
*zeo Posted July 16, 2003 Posted July 16, 2003 Thancrus swords do not retract and are probably inferior to the Guyver version but you may be right that the basic mechanism for generating the vibrational energy could be similar. But there are many ways to generate a sonic shockwave and the Guyver is clearly more advance than a Thancrus so it may employ a different method. As for shape changing, other than the Guyver ability to retract or extend the swords, which does not necessarily mean the swords are changing shape, there is no indication that the swords change shape. Also there is no evidence of a shape matrix considering even the Thancrus sword retains its shape when cut off and acts like a solid when colliding with other vibrational swords. A shape matrix would have some give and would have shown the swords bending under stress. It is more likely the micro pleats are just a vibrational surface layer. Just like the vibrational hairs in our inner ear, which also generates sound, that we use to hear with but the pleat shape allows the vibrations to be focused and combined along the surface of the blade.
Guest Posted July 16, 2003 Posted July 16, 2003 only the surface, as it were, vibrating. That would lend to the structural integrity and also allow the sword to regenerate much faster if its moving parts are damaged. One thing: The Guyver?s swords do change shape. They are not slid out of the arm, as they appear to do in the live action movies - they actually "grow" into the desired shape at a moments notice. The blades are already present - they merely take a different shape. That is why I said the whole of the blades "unfolds" on the molecular level.
*zeo Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 One thing: The Guyver?s swords do change shape. And you got that information from where?
Guest Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 Just look at the way they move in the comic book and (particularly) the anime. Also, in the description of the blades in the back of the translated comics, the blades are said to "bend and lengthen at will". The blades are already present, they just elongate.
*zeo Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 The only difference from the anime/manga to the movie version, aside from being less powerful, for the swords is that the anime/manga shows the swords vibrating and glowing. Also the movie swords were straighter than the anime/manga versions. G2's swords for example extend in a manner similar to a curved saw blade. Bend and lengthen does not necessarily mean the swords are changing shape. I'm not saying that you are entirely wrong though, just that the mechanism may not work exactly like you're thinking. Remember aside from extending and retracting the swords have never been shown to change shape or even change angle once fully extended. They don't even bend.
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