*zeo Posted May 10, 2003 Posted May 10, 2003 Just clarifying, organic material as we know it is carbon based. But life does not need to be carbon based to be classified as living. I.E. A silicon based lifeform would apear to be a living rock to us. The Guyver CM is also composed of several components so its exact composition is unknown but as far as we know it is not an organic metal and does not have the appearance that organic metals would have. Since it is the control element for the unit it is not likely that it can evolve directly as it must remain stable to maintain control. Evolution by its very nature is unstable.
BloodStorm Posted May 31, 2003 Posted May 31, 2003 Well, I'm not certain about ALL guyvers... but I know certainly that one unit in particular can. Which unit am I speaking of? Good question, and it deserves a good answer. What is that answer? Thats another good question isn't it? I'm rambling again, Aren't I? Anyway..... The BloodStorm guyver I'm doing a fiction about was designed way back during the creators' contest for the ultimate "warrior" unit. Only this was acctually forbiddin to be made by the council in charge of the contest. Why? Well, It would start at along the same power level as a standard unit, but over time it would "evolve" in power. Growing stronger, adapting new weapons, and deleting those that were innefective. Still, being the egotistical creator he was, Dureal designed it anyway, and was killed for his efforts. He did manage to finish the unit, and hid it in the asteroid belt for millions of years untill passing space debres knocked it back to earth. Then it bonded with a human host, and in the 2 years it's been active, The unit's physical streangth has grown from 100 men to 850 men, and its power levels have grown accordingly. Slowly, the guyver and host are intigrating into one being, thus eliminating the need to bioboost. Also this adaption would allow the guyver to transmit it's power into any future offspring it might have, but how they will be affected has yet to be seen. As another note the unit has a gigantic level that it enters not by use of the gigantese caccoon, but a process similer to a spider molting out of a exoskeliton thats grown too small. It also has a third level beyond that one, but has yet to access that in my stories. By the way, Sully, This is the main charater I told you about in my email sometime last year. I'll be working on getting the full data files and stories ready to send to you for full submission soon.
Ghrecki Posted June 1, 2003 Posted June 1, 2003 I think that all guyvers given time can evolve. After all what is humanity's greatest ability? That is to evolve and adapt. And what do guyvers do? Boost all host abilities. Add those two together and the guyver boostes the natural ability to evolve and adapt, that is why I think given time any guyver can evolve. The guyver form is based on the host, so host adapts/evolves then the guyver Adapts/evolves. They may not do it as fast as WaKar or BloodStorm. If a guyver had been merged for a few hundred or tousand years it , IMO, would be much more powerful than a guyver of 1 to 20 years. This theory only works on evolving hosts, but a unit-G is only a guyver on a human so that takes care of that angle. A guyver is only a guyver on a human or human based life form.
Guest Posted June 1, 2003 Posted June 1, 2003 It's been a long time since the creators left Earth. Can we say that in that time Humans have evolved in at least mentality if not biology? Guyver Zero seems to be almost exactly like the other guyvers. I'm guessing that the only way a true guyver can evolve would be in personal skill, in the ways that really count for a person, and for a good story. On the flip side, Someone once said that it's the control metal that tells the armor what tools and weapons best suit it's host, what and how to form them. That the 'LAN' connection of control metals provides this data. If this is so (and I say if, I'm still not completely comfortable with this, something still seems a bit off), then as creator technology evolves, the control metal should be able to evolve each armor. This evolution would seem to have a limit though, limited to what the organic armor is capable of producing. I meen, why else would the Gigantic armor be a completely separate system? The Gigantic armor though does suggest that an armor can evolve to suit it's host. I still think it is adapting to the mentality of the host. If all armor works like this, then perhaps with any significant change to a host's personality the armor will change. Of coarse, Sho has grown a bit, so it might have to be one heck of a change. I don't know, just a random guess
*zeo Posted June 1, 2003 Posted June 1, 2003 'LAN' is a bad term. It's closer to bio-feedback. The CM does control all aspects of the unit, which is merged with the host, so it's pretty much a given that it will dictate how the two would interact but hardwired as it is to the host brain allows it to respond to host personality. So it might be possible for the appearance of a Guyver to change over time but powers would remain the same except for Skill. The human brain is capable of rewiring itself, as has been shown by people who survive brain damage and still live normal lives, so given time a host can learn to control and use the unit a lot better as their brain adapts. Note though to all that this is NOT evolution. Human can't evolve no matter how long we live. That's simply not how evolution works for us. Only through our children can evolution take place for us. However that does not mean we can't adapt. What many of you have suggested is adaption and not evolution. Basically you should look more at the host/unit relation than at either one seperately. So far the Guyver has produced only two valid cases that can be labelled as evolution. 1) The Creation of a Guyver, merging human host and alien armor to produce a new lifeform the Guyver. 2) The creation of the Gigantic. Guyver organism responding to environment threat (Alkanphel) and host to produce a more advanced battle form. There has to be something defineably different before a change can be considered evolution. I.E. You wouldn't consider the physical changes our bodies go through during the course of a long life as evolution. Only that they are changes inherant to the nature of our bodies. Normal units are simply too stable to evolve like that unless the CM memory of host/unit DNA gets corrupted over time. This does not mean a Guyver can't improve over time, just that significant changes are not to be expected unless an outside force influences the unit. I.E. Guyver XT has evolved since his unit has been tampered with and defineable changes have resulted from those tamperings. Units like BloodStorm are a valid example of a unit evolving on their own since defineable changes occur that the original form could not either have or emulate. So the original Unit is clearly different from what it has become. However, characters like Primitive Guyver are not valid examples of a unit evolving since he is basically the same as when he first became a Guyver. He's just a lot better at using his unit than anyone else.
darkguyver1472340198 Posted June 2, 2003 Posted June 2, 2003 A 1 word Statment to back up guyver evolution "ANGEL".I rest my case.
*zeo Posted June 3, 2003 Posted June 3, 2003 Then you've lost the case. Angel is not a normal unit, any more than the W'Kar unit is, and only exists in the fan fic. What she is going through is mainly the host and unit adapting to each other since it was not originally intended for a human host. Not spontaneous evolution.
darkguyver1472340198 Posted June 3, 2003 Posted June 3, 2003 I said I was resting my case. Anyway you have a piont about Angel. but my other long winded post still stands. Wake me when we all agree that Guyvers CAN evolve please?
Guest Posted June 3, 2003 Posted June 3, 2003 How about this for a change. That nobody really knows because no one here created the guyver, if anything you'd have to ask Takaya, but I have to go with seven on this. My reason is simple its that the Advents already "grow" everything in their civilization so most likely the guyver as well. Now determining after the unit bonds to the host in how it changes would kind of determine if the unit is growing or evolving. If the unit is merely doing a W'kar it's most likely growing. Now if we had like a sky world and Seven's unit started out looking more like a standard unit and over the years got the wings and such then it is more likely evolving. This is merely my opinon by the definition of the words, and you'll most likely fight me about it anyway. So pretty much I'd say if you're writing it then basically what you say goes. Edited: I reread Seven's original post and had a brainstorm in the fact that she said the guyver was a machine. Now I hope someone else is a mechanic. A car is also a machine and most sports cars have these huge v-10 engines and such and yet only capable of doing 150 mph on the street, the problem is there is a system much like the barrier she's talking about and its called a govenor. If you remove the govenor suddenly the same car is capable of doing 250mph, and all we did is change on little piece of $.50 silicone. Now has anyone else played with the govenor of their guyver lately?
*zeo Posted June 4, 2003 Posted June 4, 2003 The govenor is there for two reasons. 1) To limit the cars top speed to legal limit. 2) To keep the engine from tearing itself apart since not all the parts have the same tolerance level, so engine never exceeds safety limits. It's basically the same rule as over clocking your computer, sure you can do it but don't expect to last very long. We may not know what Takaya personally thinks but the Guyver has not changed since at least Guyver 0, and Manga does suggest the units have not changed much since the Guyver organism was discovered long before they came to Earth, so we can pretty much assume that a standard unit remains pretty stable over a time period that entire species on this planet evolve and then go extinct. The Creators may grow their technology but that doesn't mean it necessarily evolves. Remember they are basically a race of scientists so any evolution would probably only take place in the lab or test planet. The technology they use personally must be free of random mutations to ensure reliability and safety. Any change they may want over time can simply be programmed with the CM. Remember evolution is also responsible for diseases and crippling mutations. For a space faring race that relies on organic technology, evolution would only be allowed in research as anything else invites possible destruction. But I never said Guyvers could not evolve just that they would not do so normally as long as the CM was doing its job. Any machine that follows a predetermined design does not evolve, only when it changes or exceeds its design can it be said to evolve, which btw does not always mean a beneficial change. I also said that writers are perfectly free to make up whatever rules they want in their fan fic right from the start. The only reason this is even being debated is because it is posted in the science section of the board. So I guess darkguyver is going to have a really long nap
Ghrecki Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 I have changed my mind on this topic. I think unless the guyver is desineded to it wont evolve. Human can't evolve no matter how long we live. That's simply not how evolution works for us. Only through our children can evolution take place for us. since the units are grown (well most likely sinece almost everything else of the creators is) then they all come from a base stock. to evolve they would have to breed (not the guyver enhansed host but the unit it self). With out the breeding no evelotion. This is why I think, at least for now, that unless desineded to like bloodstorm the guyver wont evolve. So some do if made that way or altered to be that way, but normaly dont.
BloodStorm Posted June 16, 2003 Posted June 16, 2003 Aye Aye Aye..... Remind me not to let Ghrecki on my computer anymore, Especially not to post here. He has a horrible grip on this concept most of us refere to as "spelling". If I didn't know him personally, I wouldn;t have understood a word he said... On the other hand, we've stated that guyver's can't evolve, unless designed specificly to do that, Right? Ok, show of hands.. Which Guyvers do we know that CAN evolve? W'kar Angel BloodStorm any others that I'm missing?
Warbyrd13 Posted July 16, 2003 Posted July 16, 2003 This is my view on this topic. Yes the orginal Guyver Sho who everyone bases thier charecters off of did evolve his unit with the Giga unit. Now i have read all i can on the guyver from comics plus the animie series they have out. Rember the Guyver is a symbiont armor that enhances the host and increases thier potential as a warrior. So depending on the hosts skills depends on how effective the change is. Rember Sho is a basic student with basic fighting skills. Lisker was a hand to hand combat expert and as Guyver 2 his fighting skills became more dealdy. As the comics show that Sho gets better at his hand to hand combat skills. So yes the unit can evolve an yes it will change the host by enhancing his natural skills and ablities. I like reading the fanfics you have made. I have been reading them for about 2 yrs now. I could get more info but since i am deployed in Kuwait i cannot acces what i have gathered on the guyver. Basicaly look at other heroes in comics who have symboint armor an see what it does to protect the host from harm ir, Wetworks, Vemon, Carnage an a few others have evolved an enhanced thier host. Rember the basic is around how the Guyver enhances the host to become the perfect weapon so stronger the host the stronger the Guyver. In Sho's case he has a strong will to live and to surrive an to protect his friends so he becomes stronger. The CM has in it who knows what for battle tactics but it seems to know how to access weapons and to use them when the host or it is in danger so it has some sort of basic thought process maybe even more. But any way please write more on your stories casue i need something very good to read out here in kuwait.
*zeo Posted July 17, 2003 Posted July 17, 2003 On the other hand, we've stated that guyver's can't evolve, unless designed specificly to do that, Right? Ok, show of hands.. Which Guyvers do we know that CAN evolve?W'kar Angel BloodStorm any others that I'm missing? It is questionable if Angel really counts, her unit is simply adapting her to fit the type of host it was designed for. Once it is done she would stop changing. But there are two or three characters you did not list It's not really a big deal since most lifeforms don't evolve during a single lifetime but rather over many generations. Beings like W'Kar and BloodStorm are highly unusual. Also remember Guyvers are based off humans and we only evolve over generations. . . Glad you like the fics Warbyrd13 but to clarify you are using a very loose interpretation of evolution. Simply becoming a better fighter is not evolving. So technically only the Gigantic example can be classified as a form of evolution, though the initial bonding of host and unit can also be considered evolving it stops from there and can be reversed with a unit remover. Wetworks uses an artificial nanotech based symbiotic armor originally created by vampires. It's function is by design and not evolution. Yes both Venom and Carnage, Carnage being an evolved variation of the Venom entity, are alien symbiots like the Guyver organism but unlike them the Guyver organism is enslaved by the Control Medal so it can't evolve or do anything on its own while the Control Medal remains in control. Only if that strict control is somehow hampered or purposely programmed to not fully control the Organism would a Guyver be able to evolve over time.
Warbyrd13 Posted July 18, 2003 Posted July 18, 2003 Neo1234 I agree with most of everyone's ideas around here but I agree with Seven the most that given time and with the host will the unit will evlove and become more powerful. Since the series didnt continue there is alot of unanswered questions we all have but the Giga unit to me shows it can evolve to become more powerful to a threat to the host and to the guyver itself. i am beginning to write my own fanfiction and the charecters in it thier Guyver's will become more powerful over time and their design will evolved based on the host natural combat ablities. i am curious how much programing the CM has an what type of skills it teaches the host or the fact that when in selfdefnse mode with out the host it becomes to its max potential as a warrior. If you guys know how to contact the creator of the Guyver series then we should just ask him about it. In my opion any weapon should be able to upgrade itself or in this case evolve since it is a living creature. That is the fun thing about meeting differant people who like the animie series we all have our own ideas and views and the fact we see things in differant ways. With the group of writers and artist present we could rewrite or add on to the original idea. On Wetworks rember towards the end of the series the symbiot did change the host at the end other than being body armor for them. One became a Werewolf like charecter, anothe one could use his Chi better and Dozer became a mound of muscle which was killing him becasue his heart couldnt handle the strain. My buddy in school read the series and i read what I could. I just know that Wetworks among others are metioned in my research i have done for differant RPG charecters I have made using Symbiont charecters. I wish the kept that series going they had some intersting plots in their stories.
McAvoy Posted July 18, 2003 Posted July 18, 2003 Zeo not Neo. In both WG and W'Kar fanfics there alrady has been a mention of some sort of governor. Malice before he became attached to Sho, was a 20x character at best. Now he's a 60x character because Grend lifted a 'governor'. Also Dreadnought overrides his own governor to give himself a 60% power boost. Remember the control medal is programmed to protect the host at all costs. Evolution does have a tendency to change the DNA a bit, so the host can't evolve because the unit will not let the happen. Same goes with the unit, if the bio booster armor changes it could change how it reacts to the control medal (making it free for instance). So I think the Creators who created the unit probably made a limit to how much the unit can change if can change at all.
*zeo Posted July 19, 2003 Posted July 19, 2003 Thanks McAvoy. Basically Warbyrd13, like I said before on this topic, you are free to make up any rules you want when making your own fic. We only argue the point here because this is the science section of the board and not the fan fic section. Yes the Gigantic is an example of the Guyver effect and can thus be classified as a form of evolution but you must remember the Gigantic is still a seperate entity from the Guyver unit and the Guyver unit itself has not changed. The unit is alive but it is also a device and was not originally intended to be a weapon, at least not to the level the Guyver has achieved. Besides in most cases a weapon is replaced and not upgraded. Evolution is after all random and could easily create the equivalent of a downgrade, besides the points McAvoy mentioned as well. The Unit self defense mode is always active but we only notice it when Sho either fails to protect the CM or is unable to like when his brain was ripped out. The unit will basically protect the CM at all cost and acts accordingly. If no threat is perceived then it will do absolutely nothing. A lot of the Guyver's abilities are held back by the human host, which still thinks and fights like a human and not as a Guyver. When the AI is in control, it simply holds nothing back and thus makes the unit seem more powerful when in reality it is just using the full potential already there. Humans are after all conditioned throughout our life to protect ourselves from over doing things and physically harming ourselves. A Guyver host has to get over that conditioning before they can freely use their full potential as Guyvers. Btw, the manga series is still running last I checked and I am presently waiting for the next book to come out. Though Yashika Takaya isn't exactly talking to the fans so it be rather hard to ask him anything. The examples you mentioned in Wetworks was simply the armor adapting to the users. Remember it was originally designed for vampires so once they learned to tap the armors full potential it adapted to their combat styles and manifested their wills as it would have done for a vampire user. That doesn't fall under evolution as it was abilities the armor already had and just needed to learn to use. Yup, it was a cool series though. As to adding to the original concept and story, many of us are already doing that. Feel free to join in.
Guest Posted July 19, 2003 Posted July 19, 2003 Silly me, I thought the Gigantic armor was just an expander pack. The relic ship was linked with Sho. In the process of getting destroyed, he wanted the power to defend his freinds against zoalords, so it reformated itself into a zoalord armor expansion. Does reorganization count as evolution? The relic did adapt to meet it's new -purpose-, so I guess that is close to adapting to it's new environment. Evolution usually occurs at random with generations, the relic was essentially ordered to take the new form. I guess it comes close to evolution, but even if we say it is, it would be the relic evolving, and not the Guyver.
Azaar Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 Slightly off-topic, but still within the purview of the topic itself... Does Aptom truly evolve by absorbing the genetic structure of Zoanoids to make himself more powerful, or is he just an example of an extreme form of adaptation? Back on topic... Whatever the answer to the previous question may be, would a Guyver unit that had the same genetic absorption special ability that Aptom possesses prove itself to actually be capable of evolution, or would it still fall under the latter definition of extreme adaptation?
Sully Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 Ok time to wrap this topic up. Topic closing, ye have a few days to make your closing points.
Primitive Guyver Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 Alright i was wandring about what Zeo said. The first word i said was sh*t by the way hahaha. Alright here goes! Can a guyver Concisionly turn off this "governor". I was wandering cause that could explain why certain guyvers can go above and beyond their normal power settng haha yea you guess it (Primitive Guyver). Sounds quite interesting on one aspect if they could turn off this governor or by pass it would the unit still fight the host to regain control. Or can this governor only be turn off sub concisonly this would be more understandable as it would be that the cm lost control of the host and would never fight the host to regain control so wouldn't cause too much strain on the host. Survivial of the strongest is what i mean by the cm never trying to take control as it lost the battle with the host. This could be soundig like rambling hell it sounds like that to me. Just i think Zeo slipped when he said that the governor or control medal can be by passed. I just can't really put my finger on it right now. Lack of sleep does that to you. But their is something going on. I just know it.
*zeo Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 Aptom falls under the area of evolution by assimulation. If a Guyver did the same thing and altered its form accordingly then it too would be evolving by assimulation but that would have to be by design. A standard unit will not gobble up other life forms. No a normal Guyver can't turn off its governor at will or subconsciously. The only bypass is by either design or if the governor was damaged. It is lacking imagination and underestimating human potential to think the only way a Guyver could become more powerful is through some form of evolution.
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