Can the "Guyver" evolve?

[Guest]

Ok, this is the big thing in my story. Guyvers can evolve. Guyvers. By Guyver I mean the unit, that is the Guyver. Now then, Guyver is an actual bio-living matter, it seems to be a partially sentient being meaning that perhaps Guyver can feel pain and can possibly LEARN other emotions as well.

When the creators first created Guyver, it was supposed to be no more than a weapon of war, no different from a human gun or bomb. It's sole purpose was to kill, annhilate, and destroy its target. The flaw in Guyver as we know, to the creators, was that a host who doened a Guyver was incapable of being controlled. Now, this right here tells me that the creators did NOT make that a feature of Guyver at all. They built the machine, therefore they would have done everything in their power to make sure it was always under they power.

What does this mean? I don't know about any of you, but to me this means that the Guyver did indeed EVOLVE.

I have many things to speak of but I'll only put out one other theory of mine for now. Communication.

In the story, Takaya clearly presents the fact that the organisms on the back are like receivers, they act as a honning device and call to them The Guyver. Once in the manga and anime (probably more places, I haven't read any of the manga because I can't ever find it or gt it ;.; ) Tetsuro mentions something about the Guyver being existant in another dimension, somewhere always close to its host. This in fact means that Guyver is more or less the equivlent to a slave.

Now then, Guyver obviously is a partial sentient being, when the host is unconcious we've seen it take over and protect the host and itself at all costs. Here's my second theory. In my story there is what I call a barrier that exists between host and Guyver, making it incapable of communicating with the other. If this barrie does indeed exist and is broken, it is my belief that the host will not only become stronger but the Guyver could be taught to define friend from foe, love from hate, joy from sorrow. I believe the Guyver has seriously been misjudged for many years by many Guyver fanatics, and it has taken me nearly 8 years of continuous little research to study into such things. In closing, I believe the Guyver is its own sentient being and that given time if the barrier was gone, it could in fact learn,

Too bad Guyver isn't a college subject, I'd pass it with flying colors and have a degree in no time!! evolve.

[deathguyver]

don't know if this would go along or not but like when sho died fighting his dad and the guyver took over and killed his father and after that he couldn't bio boost into the guyver due to the trauma of knowing the guyver killed his father. was it because of the host hating the guyver unit that it wouldn't activate or would it have been that is sorta loathed itself and refused to cause the host anymore harm? most of this is probably wrong but had to add my 2 cents.

[*zeo]

Hello Seven, an interesting idea that I'm sure will make an interesting fan fic but in terms of how this applies to the Manga is questionable. So let's think this out.

The Guyver organism is a parasitic lifeform, capable of adapting to extreme environments, discovered eons ago by the Creators long before they came to the Earth. Virtually all of the Creator technology is based off of it. Everything from the Relics, to G-Units, to removers are all composed of the Guyver organism and are controlled by a Control Medal. So yes, it can be viewed as being enslaved.

Both the Guyver effect and the power of a human hosted Unit came as a complete surprise to the Creators. The primary purpose of the first experimental bonding that produced Guyver 0 was to see if their creations would be compatable with their technology. The G-Unit is after all vital to being able to access and control the Creator technology like the Relics.

Though, they probably did also expect some increase in power due to the very nature of how the Unit works but were totally surprised when G0 used his mega smashers. They were actually pleased by the results but then discovered that they had no control over their new creation when they ordered him to remove his armor and he refused. Many of you can come to your own conclusion as to why this happened but I don't think it was because of the mind of the organism. After all it is always under the strict control of the Control Medal and the only thing that directly accesses the host mind is the CM and it was the host that refused the Creators command and not the Unit.

The Guyver self defense mode is not a result of the organism but rather the Control Medal. It is primarily when it is threatened that the Self Defense mode is activated. The only time the organism was shown with a consciousness of its own was in Manga when G1's severed forearm turned into a mutant clone of Sho. The severed forearm was not under the control of the CM, so it went out of control and absorbed the host DNA. Retaining enough of the host's memories for the mutant clone to find its way to Sho's school before confronting G1 and getting reabsorbed into G1 when it came into contact with the CM. Whether this was a result of the organism having a mind of its own or only taking advantage of host DNA to gain that ability is debateable.

The Guyver organism is an alien lifeform that evolved very differently from the way we did. So there is no reason to expect it to have emotions like us or even think in the way we do. However it is capable of merging with a human and taking on some human characteristics, but the organism by itself is probably still primitive minded if it has a mind at all.

Intelligence is only evolved when it provides a lifeform with a survival advantage. There is very little intelligence that a parasitic lifeform will need aside from a basic predatory mind. Also remember the Guyver organism was discovered by the Creators long before they came to the Earth. So is a very ancient form of life that due to the CM has remained unchanged since the Creators discovered it.

It is questionable if such an old, and highly regulated by the CM, lifeform can evolve beyond its present design. The only barrier I can see is the barrier imposed by the strict control over the organism by the Unit's CM but this does not prevent the organism from tapping into the host nervous system as can be shown by fact host feels pain when the armor is damaged.

As a life form, the organism can probably evolve if given the chance but such a old lifeform can probably only do that by merging, completely, with an already sentient being. For the sentient being who gets absorbed, this would most likely not be a desireable means of communicating.

As for when Sho couldn't activate his unit, that was simply because the trauma of realizing he had killed his father gave Sho a mental block that prevented him from calling the unit. Sho has to want the power to call it forth. Sho always disliked the Unit, he never wanted to be a Guyver. He's the classic relunctant hero. The trauma was just so bad for Sho that he couldn't bring himself to consciously remember what had happened until Aptom forced him to. The unit itself was simply waiting to be called.

[Guest]

I think that without the CM the living tissue itself just might be able to evolve, I think you definetly have something there. It makes sense. I don't agree with all of your reasonings, but it still makes sense.

Wasn't the Unit-G a tool? I think they said that it only became a weapon when it was bonded to a human. Old folk lore says that the Unit-G boosts a host based on the host's traits. Humans were engineered as combatants, so it boosted those traits to create a combatant styled Unit-G that we all love and know as the Guyver!

I love that arm reference. The idea that the living tissue is capable of making meak observations when the CM lets it can explain a lot of how the mutant Sho clone hunted them down. Not bad at all. I don't think the CM would ever let the living tissue ever interfere with anything, I think it cripples any real individuality.

I don't think that all creator tech is based off this one specimen of living tissue. The CM yes, they seem to use it a lot. Couldn't we say that they use the CM to link together the different organic machines? With the development of the Zoalord, it seems they were moving on to the next phase, a pure zoacrystal design. What does everyone else think?

[*zeo]

For the Creators themselves the Unit was mainly a tool and yes the Unit adapts to the characteristics of its host.

The Gigantic shows that the Relic and Unit organisms are compatable, which can only be if they are based off the same organism. The Control Medal is the only inorganic tech the Creators have ever shown.

It is much easier for a space faring race if all there tech uses the same raw material for easy repair and interchangeable parts.

[Guest]

I agree with you, raw material. Would you meen like DNA? Proteins and stuuf? Enzymes? These things seem pretty interchangable. A Unit-G links directly to a host. A relic links to someone -through- a Unit-G. If they are the same, why would a relic not merge with a host just like the Unit-G?

I think the Unit-G is a piece of biotech that can merge with other life forms.

I think the Relic birth ship is a piece of biotech that can create other life forms.

Both I think are harnessed by the CM and interface through such.

[*zeo]

Different programming. The Control Medal determines the function of the organism and the Relic has two CM's, both larger than a Unit CM.

Organisms have to be of same type to be compatable. The Unit-G shows the organism is very adaptable. The only way for DNA, proteins and stuff to be absorbed is by eating them. The Creation of the Gigantic shows both unit and Relic are compatable with each other.

[Guest]

So this is basically what we know. The CM regulates and controls the functions of the Guyvers output and input. This means that in all actuality, I was right, there IS a barrier. If the CM is truly the only thing keeping Guyver from communicating with its host then it is very plauseable that the CM is both a handicap and yet also a vitally needed commonent to the system. Without the CM, the unit would go out of control. The CM basically functions as a central processing computer would or as we might say, the big enchilada! *chuckle*

Anyways, now my story is deffinately beginning to sound more understandable. Seven has an ability to "unlock" the barrier that is standing between host and unit without damaging the functions or circutry. When this is accomplished, the unit is able to project an astral form of itself on its hosts plain through the the tiny red orbs and the CM, which act like a projector more or less.

It's through this that the Guyver can actually communicate with its host and "learn." It can, in essence, evolve.

[*zeo]

One thing about learning though, the potential has to be there to begin with and the Guyver organism is very alien from a human. You're assuming its mind is similar enough to ours to learn from us.

Hmm, might work better if your unit was simply different from others in that the CM, instead of strictly regulating the Unit, only sets boundaries from which the Unit can't deviate from. In other words, as long as the Unit does its job it will be allowed to work anyway it wants. This leaves room for an evolving unit when exposed to a host mind and DNA. Say it was originally intended as a controlled experiment but bonding to a human host creates something not originally intended. Access to human DNA would thus let the Unit gain the ability to learn.

Anyway, just my opinion.

[Guest]

Exactly, the Guyver is Alien and that is the key word in all this. Guyver, like any Alien, would have one of two things on mind. Destroy anything unknown, then learn from it and move on, or 2) learn about the races cultures and beliefs, etc etc. Either way they would still want to learn and if a creature like Guyver does not understand emotions, just imagine how great to THEM it would be to learn and not just learn but to UNDERSTAND such things?

To tell foe from friend, to know love from hat, each experience would be just as rewarding and in the eyes of Guyver, learning even the simplest thing as how to say hello would be a success. IN order FOR Guyver to SRUVIVE, its key directive, like any LIVING being it has to learn, to adapt.

[*zeo]

Like I said before, your idea will make an interesting story.

But consider this, it took millions of years for the human mind to evolve the capacity for emotions and rational thought. You're asking that an alien lifeform that has essentially remained unchanged for untold eons to suddenly evolve our mental capacities in an evolutionary equivalent of a blink of an eye. Simply lowering mental barriers will not let the organism learn from its human host. It needs to evolve the capacity to learn, which is why I suggested the Unit be allowed to perminently absorb some of its host DNA. Only then can it be expected to so quickly evolve the capacity to learn from its human host.

But this is only when looking at your idea scientifically. Philosophically you can do anything you want for your fic and I can already tell what you do with this idea will make for a very interesting story.

[Sully]

I remember talking about this ages ago with Seven..... Anyway (note this is my own personal view on it so may repeat a lo here) evolution in the traditional sense can only happen if children are produced. New generation is basically the same but over time (and one hell of allot of time that is, ten of thousands of years) the species change into a new form of some kind or another to better fit the environment then live in.

Problem here is a Guyver does not produce offspring. The Unit-G are a controlled organism. The control medals only fuction is to beand the organism so that it enhances a host (bio-boosts them) and make the host fit for space travell and commication with their space ships. That was the reason they gave one to a human, they wanted to see was a human capable of controlling one of their ships.

In humans you have the Guyver effect, the Unit-G produces something never seen and never planned for, additional weapons systems and been out of control. That does not mean the unit was out of control but the combination of it human host. The Guyver 0 was in self defence mode when it attacked the Creators. There was no high intellegence at work, it was the fact the Creators did something silly, they attacked the Guyver in a test situtation not knowing fully what they created.

THe Unit-G though is not a weapon of war, it is basically a space suit. It just happens that on a human it becomes a very deadly weapon.

For a Guyver to truely evolve you have to take away the control medal. Lets say you had a group of 7 Guyvers in traditional sense, all the Takaya type Guyver. a battle happened and a few of them lost limbs but moved on. No one came back to recover the arms, legs etc. Over time they could grow into bio-creatures, freed from the control medel. Have them a mix of sexes and then you give them the ability to produce offspring. Given time 10,000 years and who knows what would happen? They could evolve a purely organic control medal/zoa-crystal like thing.

All above is just using the pure Takaya version of the Guyver. It is your fan-fiction in the end. Using you own artistic linance you could say the unit had a flaw or an ehanced ment that allowed the control medal of the unit to grow a kind of AI. But the fact of the Takaya stories is the control medal does not have the ability to grow into something else by itself or the host, it needs some kind of outside system for it to be changed.

[Guest]

I'm also using the idea of an evolving guyver in my story. The reason why the guyver I use can evolve is because the guyver can use the link it has with the host to use the host's brain. That way it gains intelligence and can thus improve itself. Evolutions won't go fast due to the CM and the increases won't be much but that also mean that the character won't be super powerful. It won't be a real evolution but more like software that can update itself.

[Sully]

I'm also using the idea of an evolving guyver in my story. The reason why the guyver I use can evolve is because the guyver can use the link it has with the host to use the host's brain. That way it gains intelligence and can thus improve itself. Evolutions won't go fast due to the CM and the increases won't be much but that also mean that the character won't be super powerful. It won't be a real evolution but more like software that can update itself.

That's not evolution, that’s just learning a new trick. Evolution would be for it to then produce offspring with the new ability.

[Guest]

I'm sorry if I didn't express myself clearly enough. I know that it isn't evolution because there isn't any reproduction. What I meant was that the guyver could learn from its experiences and adapt itself. It would discard or keep the things it doesn't need the same and change its own design and powers to increase its chance of survival. I agree that it is more like adaption then evolution but what I meant is that unit also changes both the way it works and the way the host works. That makes it more then adaption but not evolution. I simply don't know how to call it .

[Sully]

The Guyver's learning abilities have not been shown in a real sense. Everything it has done so far only shows one purpose, to protect the host.

Apart from that, even saw it attempt to learn or go outside it's role. Remember to the Creators a Unit-G is a basic tool. The use them in a similar way we use clothing.

Even if it has a memory store of some kind it is more than likely used to hold the huge amount of information needed to hold the genetic makeup of the host, its memory up till the unit was remover and locations of scars on the body.

Does that impact Seven's fic? Nope, its her fiction she can do as she wishes. Has Takaya ever done a Warrior Guyver? The Kavzar??? Naa they are just made up by me and could be easily shown to be nothing to do with his work... Imagine if he decided to show the Creators and their modern army??? No one in their fics can be strictly like Takaya, its impossible to do that. Do what you want Seven, you're a great writer and what does it matter what others think if they do not support the idea fully. You'll make it sound amazing anyway whatever you decide to do.

[Guest]

man, just posted yesturday, and now several people have already passed by real fast on this topic. I guess I kinda have to summarize oppinions or something.

1)If the material that makes the relic and the Unit-G are the same thing, then why doesn't a relic bond with it's pilot? And is the Gigantic actually exchanging anything with the guyver other than energy? My guess that anything it does exchange is in a conduit type relationship.

In truth, the deeper reason why I don't like to think of the two materials as being anything more than similiar is because of a richness in culture and science. The creators had to have an entire civilization. Yes, themes of technology and all that, but differences. All computers use binary (DNA), and electricity, yet run on different operating systems (OS2, Winxp). I'd like to think that the slight nuances in the day to day operation will be optimized, that a relic has been built for -that- job, even if it's just done by a different CM type and a few protein strands away.

You could probebly come up with a reason why the Relic doesn't merge with it's pilot directly, and I could relentlessly say that if it is truly like a Unit-G it would be more efficient. I guess I just have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

2)about differences with the CM, why not just break it? That's what I've done in my fic. A malfunction, even just a teeny tiny one can work wonders

3)The brain aspect. Yes, I think the CM is nothing more than a Lan type processor. The parasyte part though, when Sho's arm was torn off and became it's own mutant clone, it definetly showed intelligence. It knew the way back to Sho's school, and was smart enough to figure out how to put some clothes on. Sure, the thing isn't a rocket scientist, it couldn't talk, and was basically a savage hungry shark, but it could track Sho down.

Does this meen that it's possible for the animal that the CM is restraining to at least observe it's surroundings?

4)Doesn't Aptom evolve? What if the parasyte is pretty much like him? Aptom can branch off. If they live separate lives and everything, couldn't they be counted as children? It's an alien way to procreate, but heh, whatever floats your boat

[Guest]

*chuckles* This is fun and you all have a lot of really great ideas *cracks knuckles* But it's my turn again *wink*

1) Regardless what Zeo1234 says ::BWAPS ZEO ON THE HEAD BEFORE HE CAN ANYTHING< TIES HIM UP AND SHOVES HIM INTO A CLOEST:: hehe, anyways, the CM does indeed seem to me to be the true parasite or reason behind why something like Guyver can't evolve. Ok, let's get very realistic hear and think about this. Now in more then one reply people have agreed that the Guyver is living armor but it is no more than just that and that the CM is the true intelligence of Guyver if there is in fact any intelligence there.

Now then, in other posts we've also come to see eye to eye that the Guyver would need host DNA to evolve and it cannot reproduce? Correct?

WRONG!

The Guyver's CM is an artificial intelligence and if the unit were upgraded with new instructions and tactics it would obey those, I.E., if Seven's unit upgraded the unit to make it start taking DNA samples and bonding to its host it would. Right now the Guyver armor is no different then ana ctual parasite riding upon its hots back. If the parasite began to merge however, the chances of survival increase + the two might benefit from one another.

Ok ok, so you're asking right now what does this all mean? Well, scientifically it means that by actually bonding with its host and extracting DNA samples, the CM no longer becomes like a slave driver, constricting the unit. The CM is needed to regulate the output of Guyver still but within an upgrade it would also allow the actual armor to begin to take on its own personalilty. Yes, it would take time to evolve, for it to learn and come to understand these emotions, why would it want to? In all honesty the Guyver is not a very intelligent being. It knows only what it was programmed to know. So the sensation of its first ice cream or the gentle hold of the opposite sex would be an overdramatic amount of feeling and sensations that would truly start to set the Guyver apart from the still enslaved units of the un-upgraded CM's. (Ok, you know you'd LOVE to due a cute picture of Guyver sitting there with a vanilla ice cream cone with a line of white where the mouth piece has moved aside to allow it to eat and below the caption would read "Got Milk?" )

With DNA samples and an upgrade in the CM, the Guyver, in my opinion, scientifically and still sticking to Takaya's Guyver theme, could in fact develope and in essentuality, evolve.

2) Now, as for that issue on reproduction *chuckle* Well, I don't know if I'm ready to say anything just yet. What do you guys think? What crosses your minds? ^.^ Ja!

[Guest]

I remember talking about this ages ago with Seven..... Anyway (note this is my own personal view on it so may repeat a lo here) evolution in the traditional sense can only happen if children are produced. New generation is basically the same but over time (and one hell of allot of time that is, ten of thousands of years) the species change into a new form of some kind or another to better fit the environment then live in.

Problem here is a Guyver does not produce offspring. The Unit-G are a controlled organism. The control medals only fuction is to beand the organism so that it enhances a host (bio-boosts them) and make the host fit for space travell and commication with their space ships. That was the reason they gave one to a human, they wanted to see was a human capable of controlling one of their ships.

Offspring is not the only way to evolve. At least not in the traditional sense. I mean, the Bio-Booster armour organism doesn't have to be a animal. Think instead that the organism originally evolved from a single-celled bacteria and retained that form of reproduction. There are many forms of bacteria that evolve over time, some to become immune to anti-biotics. So how far a jump is it to the conclusion that the organism's tissues act like our skin cells in the sense that they shed off and reproduce new cells in Hyperspace?

Having said that, I completely agree with you on the issue of intelligence Sully. The unit has only acted to protect the C.M. and the host. But I like the idea of maybe a Creator finally deciding to tweak that part of the unit around, maybe give it a few upgrades that allow for such a concept.

[*zeo]

I would reply but someone "BWAP"ed me on the head, tied me up and threw me into a closet.

Well, here's a little reply

Evolution concept is a little more flexible than Brian has stated but the Aptom method of evolving is as extreme as Star Trek Borg assimulation.

Yes, the CM keeps the Guyver Organism from evolving but it also keeps it from making like John Carpenters "The Thing" and perminently absorbing the host.

There is a difference from evolving and adapting. But like I said before, seven's idea can work if the unit can absorb host DNA, this is a form of evolution like Aptoms but regulated by the CM it can be prevented from being fatale to host. The only thing I would add is that the host should experience alien sensations from the unit as the organism starts to become aware. But also like Brian has said, as a fan fic anything goes. It is only because this has been placed in the Science section of board that I've been compelled to respond in this way.

YoungGuyver, the reason a unit doesn't merge with a living Relic is the same that it doesn't merge with another unit. The Relic has its own CM's so only when the CM's combine with a host CM would the Relic organism be allowed to merge with a Unit one. As for your diversity idea, the fact companies like Microsoft is famous for crashes and bugs pretty much nixes that idea. For hardware example, when's the last time you ever saw a Mac interchangeable with a PC? Dependability is more important for a space faring race. The only change required is the programming of the CM to determine the shape and function of the organism. The closest thing we are developing with that kind of flexibility is nano technology.

Btw, What makes you think a Relic is less efficient than a Unit?

For the Sho mutant clone, you are forgetting it was merged with host DNA. It wasn't a pure Guyver organism.

[Guest]

I'm really thinking this relic/unit-g thing is a whole other topic now. Oh well, I guess we can worry about that later.

The idea is, can a human walk into the relic, and be automatically fused as it's pilot; or must it merge with a unit-g first? That's the idea boiled down to simple guyer terms, no analogies to take the wrong way or anything. I think I'm about finished on this one, kinda like I said I said last time:)

[Guest]

I kind of have it flipped around from the unit evolving.

I'd think over time that the host would slowly cease to be human in a sense and the'd start using the CM as sort of a second brain even when not in the armored state. As the unit became further familiar with its host making little tweaks here and there making things more efficient.

[Guest]

I think that that is what happened with primitive guyver. He and the armor have been merged for so long that the armor has made some minor adjustments to increase it's power.

[darkguyver1472340198]

you have a poin here i belive that the guyver can evolve but slowly, and we dont know if can reproduce.

I have the wacky theory that the gigantic armour is infact the offspring of the guyver, and the relic think about it. While sho was in the coccon it counts as a gestasion period for the gigantic. Also the gigantic has both what i call "species" of guyver and relic trates, hence the thusters and teleportation and crystals from the relic with the main form of the guyver.

But the CM dictates that it can only go about it in a certain way hence why the gigantic is not a new guyver unit by itself. And can only be called a seprate creture and it does not suffer from the "Guyver effect", if you notice when the gigantic attaches itself to a host , the host does not go "out of control" but in fact heeds to the hosts will knowing that is what is best, and it learnt it from being with Sho and Agito who want to save life and free the world from Chronos. Which is also why if Agito call the gigantic it will come to him before his change into WG3. another point is when shinzu became female guyver 3, while still in self defence mode the guyver called it's "offspring" to help it survive and the gigantic did so and only raised its shilds, knowing that if it prevoked an attack from any number of the fighting Chonos "heavy hitters" it would be destoyed.

So the guyver is evolving as it can reproduce and think for itself while taking it surroundings in aswell responding to them. Like in the case of Enzyme II vs Guyver 1 the guyver defended itself as it knew that it could only save sho's farther was to kill him. This is a sence of self preservation. Which is another peice of eveidence to prove that the guyver can learn from its suroundings.

Remember the guyver is ALIEN so it is all up to ones interpitation of what is seen

[Guest]

This is the theory I have imposed to my thoughts. The Cm is a organic computer with programing. This programing tells the body that it must fight or fly to survive. With the Gigantic as a assist/offspring I will concure.

Now with the shear 2.5 billion years poor primative guyver has been around , I think it has effected the unit to the point it is more like the host. This means the tool "learns" the actions and motivations of the user and inhances them. This would give a sort of higher level thinking that with time the unit could possible grow.

To address the topic of the "offspring" directly from the control unit. You would have to determine how much of a control metal is organic.

For this I offer organometals. This would mean in time if given the command a cm could grow from the right mixture of chemicals with would be simple information contained in the dna of the control unit.

Please do not take this as a threat I simple posse this as a comprable sollution.

I present this twist for your parusal.

As a part of evolution change in a being will always happen. Could a guyver, just a regular unite-g be able to shape change so to speak.

Let me try this a little more indepth.

Say some one such as primative guyver, broke through the "mental barrier" and can actualy think with the cm. Could he then when calling his armor, say specialize it so as to be more prepared for a physical fight and be able to save all the extra energy/convert it for a better longer fight?

To live is to serve, to serve is to live.

Legend of the Rangers

Edited May 10, 2003 by Guest