mass in zoanoids

[*YoungGuyver]

You know Ryuki, I was starting to reread this, got an idea, and then boop, came across your idea that lined up with mine.

Yep, I posted that a zoanoid processing facility should have a good energy reactor in order to infuse energy into zoanoids so they could mass shift. But then I was just thinking-zoanoids can mass shift, they can convert mass and energy already. Why not just give them mass, and allow THEM to convert it into energy. We already have tonnes of matter in useful forms around us already. Just feed the human intravenously while he's in the processing thank, allowing his body to naturally grow into a zoanoid, then let his form shift convert that mass into energy. Hence, no need for nuclear reactors. Problem solved.

Though, the exact type of energy storage is then a problem. Personally, I think there is something physical in the zoanoid cell that is being used as a battery, that in normal zoanoids can't tap into the regular body energy reserves. I think this is why we see a rubber band effect. I don't think we can say for certain that it is chemical energy, or a structural molecule attached to something in a certain place- but I think somehow it uses a rubber band effect to unleash energy. Is that rubber band effect accessing the boost dimension, or virtual particles? I don't know, and I don't think we can truly say with certainty. Pick your poison, but I think its best to be a bit vague on that for now

[Jukai]

Not sure I get what you're going for YoungGUyver... Are you just suggesting that instead of tweaking cells to gather the energy, they put other types of nano-sized particles to gather the energy...? I mean, that's all fine and dandy, but it still doesn't explain where those things are getting the power. I mean, I guess you could say these alien proteins are accessing the boost dimension, makes more sense that way, I guess. Fills in some plot holes. I just feel like I'm missing something from your post.

Re-elaborate?

[*YoungGuyver]

It takes at least a week in a processing tank to be converted into a zoanoid. How much weight can you put on by eating? Naturally eat, and naturally allow your cells to grow and divide. Accumulate all that mass normally, the good old fashioned method.

Then, use the special mechanism in the cell to somehow convert the mass into energy. We know that mass and energy are interchangeable. Einsteins famous equation E=mcc says so quite simply. Exactly how the zoanoid cells are doing it remains a mystery to us, and we only have theories for now. I think we simply have to accept that part. Is the boost dimension involved? Maybe. Virtual particles? Maybe. Either way, as I said, I think this allows us to see a rubber band effect.

Better?

[Jukai]

Yeah, I understand it now. Unfortunately I also must disagree with it now.

You're talking about putting matter into a human being that would not increase their weight noticably, yet rapidly give enough energy to put 200 pounds instantly on a human being (not to mention all the other changes that would have to take place), effectively turning them into a Gregore.

This would defy that nasty "Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy" thing, which states that the "mass of the reactants must remain equal to the mass of the product" meaning if you want to turn a skinny human into a green muscle-bound wererhino, then he's gotta weigh almost the same... UNLESS there is a source of energy involved which helps the process.

Only way to get around this is by using readily available energy, or by using 'open systems' where the Law of Conservation of Mass don't apply, like other dimensions.

OR completely disregard the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy, but I've already been yelled at for doin' that. If I used emoticons, I'd be making a sad face right now.

[*YoungGuyver]

le sigh.

The matter would be noticeable. When they are first being processed, they would be gaining weight as zoanoids. No violation of conservation of energy at all.

And yes, we were already saying that the mass would be hidden in human form, through a conversion of mass and energy, and were talking about how that energy would be stored. Through virtual particles, or alternate dimensions. I did say those words. That's not a violation of the conservation of energy. That's what we've been debating about this whole thread, about how to preserve that particular law.

[*zeo]

I think the Zoa-Crystals are probably your best example to argue that point YoungGuyver...

Though I'm doubtful it applies to regular zoanoids, it is an alternative explaination.

@SE - Well lets remember Agito had himself to learn from as well, not all his knowledge came from Chronos, like he somehow knew G1 would regenerate from just the CM for example and Chronos did not.

As for further understanding Uh, wouldn't examples like the debreifing on the Gigantic be an example of them updating what they understood about the Guyver?

Not to mention the many examples of when the Guyver kept on surprising them. Consider for example that every surprise also indicates the acquisition of a new understanding by acknowledging the surprise and what it entales. Every surprise then indicates they learned something new about the Guyver and they would have to have updated their understanding accordingly. Like Sho having half of his brain ripped out and the unit getting up by itself and still fighting I think definitely updated their understanding of the Guyver for example.

Consider also that the scene you are referencing (begining of book 6) was before we got a proper idea of how powerful Zoalord are. And before X-Day the Zoalords were very secretive about their power, even after we have to yet to know what they are all capable of, so it's very likely these scientists had no idea of the true power of Creator technology and only had regular zoanoids for comparison. Which would severely limit what they would consider possible in a living being.

But that's like comparing an internal combustion engine to a fusion reactor and saying the fusion reactor violates conservation of energy when it doesn't.

We know the Mega Smasher only has enough energy to destroy a typical skyscaper, but that level of power is nowhere near violating conservation of energy unless you assume the Guyver is limited to just bio-chemical based energy generation.

Only then would it make no sense as chemical energy is so inefficient that for example a pro body builder flexing his muscles at a competition can burn 5 pounds in calories in just a couple of minutes.

Or take a Manga example with the Vamore's Bio-Lasers, chemically powered they don't produce anywhere near the power of a Mega Smasher. So a Chronos scientist seeing a weapon far more powerful than a Vamore Laser would of course be dumbfounded as to how it could have so much power in a biological weapon system.

Physics though tells us that a straight conversion of matter into energy for example would yield 21.481 kilotons of TNT worth of energy for a single gram of matter, which could easily rival the power shown by the Mega Smashers. . . Basically just about 10 kilotons per smasher could explain all the destructive power shown in the Manga.

So taken into context of what it is likely that Chronos scientist had to compare to I think it is clear that this scene is not proof that conservation of energy is violated in the Manga but rather just a scientist basically going "Wow" at what he saw.

I believe someone asked about when Chronos has made assumptions about the Guyver?... To start, just consider would Sho have survived as long as he has if Chronos hadn't continuously underestimated him?

Not to mention scenes like in the original OAV in which they assumed the host would have limited energy reserves because it is bonded to a human host and that version of the Zerebubuth battle sought to exhaust G1 in order to capture him (Just watch the scene of Genma explaining his plan to Guyot). True, not a Manga example but still from official source material.

Even in the Manga it took quite awhile before they sent some serious threats against the Guyver like Hyper Zoanoid Team 5. While Panadyme, Zerebubuth and the Lost Numbers all seemed more like tests than serious attempts at capturing the Guyver. The Lost Numbers especially could have been backed up by an army of zoanoids since they tricked Sho to go to a remote area a long way from any potential witnesses but they had no backup.

And I don't think anyone can argue that Khan didn't make a whole bunch of assumptions about Sho and his abilities, as he clearly assumed he could defeat even the Gigantic.

@Jukai - The violation you mention only Applies to White Holes that don't involve Worm Holes. Those that do, do not violate the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. The disproving of White Holes was not that they were completely impossible but rather most likely impossible to ever occur naturally. Just like a stable wormhole that you could use for travel would also be very unlikely to ever be encountered. The Nature of a white hole would just be too unstable, but this doesn't rule out an artificially created White Hole under artificially regulated conditions.

As for Chi, I think you're missing the point that this is suppose to be in context with the Guyver Universe. It doesn't really matter if it's real or not in our world, only that it may be on some level possible and most importantly that Takaya could believe in it and thus use it in his story. Since part of this debate is to figure out Takaya's actual intent.

Besides, you are assuming it doesn't exist with no proof aside from your belief. It by no means you can't be wrong and that Chi does exist. Mind you I'm not saying you are wrong, just pointing out that we don't know for sure.

There are plenty of examples in science of conventional wisdom either being proven wrong or having to be revised to account for new information. Just look up how much we had to change our theory on Electricity due to research into Super Conductivity, which totally blew away most of our previous conceptions on the nature of the electricity. And these debates do tend to go into the theoretical so it helps to keep an open mind.

As to your question about the Bio-Boost, the answer is two fold...

1) The nature of energy siphon requires there be something for the energy to flow to. In this case the flow is provided by taking the energy and channeling it to create additional mass and the reverse when done. But if there is nowhere for the energy to go then there is no energy siphon. (Not to mention my previous point about efficiency and how much of the Bio-Boost energy is actually used)

A good analogy would be a siphon pump, like using a tube to siphon gas out of your car into a container for example. Creating a pressure differential allows for a flow of the fluid but once the system is equalized then the flow stops. The same would be true of any system that reaches equalization.

2) Without a device like the Gravity Control Orb or Gigantic Power Amps, then it requires energy in order to create the conditions for the Bio-Boost. So just like fusion you need an ignition energy point to make the process possible. So for each gain there is also a loss and only if there is a net gain would there be a continuous benefit (Same reason we don't have fusion reactors even though we know fusion works), but without a CM most life isn't efficient enough and thus energy gets wasted and the zoaform eventually exhausts their power and don't have the energy needed to bio-boost anymore.

*I don't believe there is any reason for them to mention the details on how the zoanoids transform any more than they needed to mention it for the Guyver, remember it's been about 26 books so far and we're still learning stuff about the Guyver. Even with the Gigantic they thought had a energy limit and then it went Exceed on them to prove them wrong.

Also consider it is entirely possible they don't understand how the zoaform process allows them to gain mass, they could easily attribute it to something else. Especially if it seems to only apply to allowing them to change their mass. For example they could attribute it to the Higgs Field and not really understand where the energy is coming from.

And Barcus already admitted he has some serious doubts about their knowledge on the Guyver when he discussed the artificial unit they created.

Btw, Barcus didn't exactly create the Enzyme acid from scratch. He took an enzyme that the organism naturally uses to break down the Bio-Armor and just mass produced it to overwhelm the armor, which is more of copying than creating.

Though you could easily replace my Bio-Boost idea with Zero-Point Energy, I just prefer the Bio-Boost Theory since it uses ideas already present in the story versus introducing ideas they haven't used or mentioned by Takaya.

Otherwise the reasons I mentioned for believing the Bio-Boost idea can also be easily applied to a Zero Point Energy explanation.

zeo please don't say things like this. it seems you have based this on nothing. from what i remember it says nothing of what chronos knows of the Guyver in the manga. this is not something that can be easily stated. please do not make outrageous comments like this, if you need to show chronos' level of knowledge on a subject, please cite from hte source and then expand on your interpretation of it.

Okay, fair point. So being more specific... the scene was from the beginning of Book 6. Back when we were still learning what a Guyver was capable of and there was still things yet to be discovered.

In the next two books for example we are finally shown the 12 Zoalords and given some idea how powerful they are, something we only got the barest hints of with Barcus before.

Taking into consideration the power of a Zoalord, the guy who commented doesn't seem to realize just how powerful Creator technology is.

Archanfel destroying a planet size asteroid for example would definitely rate up there as the far more impressive feats, making the Mega Smashers seem like static electricity in comparison.

The point about Barcus doubts on their knowledge on the Unit technology also applies to show that even over a year later there are things about the Guyver technology they aren't sure on, but Book 6 happened a good bit before X-Day and so we can safely say they knew even less then. The artificial Unit for example may have existed but they ceased experimenting with it with the Failure of G2.

you need to be careful when generalising. the bio-boost creature did not show any need to hunt, the behaviour of it was unclear. the only clear behaviour was seeking to join with the guyver. we did not see it attack anybody (there was plenty of opportunity with kids around) al we saw was it transform 2 times when confronted. this may be a defence mechanism to scare off a potential threat.

True, okay lets consider then what the Manga does show. . . There was the first instance when Tetsuro tried to talk to it, it didn't attack until it got closer to him and then suddenly transformed and was about to attack him. That doesn't seem to suggest to me a defense mechanism but rather a predator reaction. It was alone with Tetsuro and had plenty of time to try to escape but instead went towards Tetsuro, who made no threatening gestures as he was trying to figure out what was wrong with his friend and didn't realize it wasn't Sho, and then suddently the Creature transformed and decided to attack. Sho only showed up because he was outside and heard Tetsuro Scream.

Takaya even drew saliva dripping from its mouth (artistic coincidence or intent?)... And Teturo was the first student it encountered when it climbed into the school through the window.

It Also didn't run away until Sho transformed and it got a look at the CM.

Then when Mizuki encountered it, Tetsuro and G1 may have been down the hall but the panel shows it was looking down at Mizuki just before it transformed, further suggesting it was acting predatorily.

Then it was confronted by both G3 and G1, and it reverted into the Sho form. Which can be can be seen as a switch from predator instinct to escape. Indicating the Beast form was it in hunting mode.

Only when connered did it again transform into its monster form, again associating that form with a predatory action, and tried to devour G1, avoiding the CM by attacking from behind, and was succeeding up to the point it came into contact with the CM and then got assimulated instead. G3 even was preparing to Mega Smash G1 if the Clone Monster won.

So in my opinion it was hunting.

Opinion aside... What we do know though is the Organism is described as a Parasitic Organism that will devour its host if the CM control is ever lost, but it is also called the Bio-Booster Organism. Even the Clone Monster was still called Bio-Booster.

This suggest a dualality in the nature of the Guyver Organism, on one side it has the instincts and desire to devour while on the other side it has the natural ability to Bio-Boost and alter its mass.

Unless these two traits are in conflict then it suggests the Bio-Boost is not a source of energy persay but a method of controlling mass to help the organism shape shift. So it still needs to eat.

It after all makes sense that such a property would be seen as very useful by the Creators as properly controlled it would mean they could make the organism create anything they needed.

The Creation of the Gravity Control Orb, thus shows the Creators knew how this process worked well enough to augment the organism's natural ability with a continuous siphon, eliminating the need to eat. Not to mention the fact they use the Boost Dimension to store the unit as well as for travel as shown by the Gigantic and Relics, also helps demonstrate that they knew how the organism can access the Boost Dimension.

once more you are assuming things and stating them like fact. this is an aggressive thing to do and is disrespectful to yoshiki takaya. stop doing it.

the Creators had the guyvers. nobody knows how they got the guyvers. there is no evidence that the Creators had any idea how the Guyver worked.

Well we may not know where the Creators got the Guyver Organism from but that is I think a different thing from saying the Creators didn't know how the organism worked.

Consider, we do know for example that they considered the Units their standard equipment.

Would you use something you had no idea how it worked, especially something based on a parasitic organism that would devour you if not for the CM as standard equipment?

The Creators did say they knew it would Bio-Boost a human, they were just surprised by how much. So they knew the armor Bio-Boosts its host... Wouldn't you call that indication the Creators had a good idea how the Guyver worked?

Also, assuming they never left the planet once they arrived that the Guyver Unit was standard equipment before they came to the Earth. So they had longer to figure out how it worked versus the entire experiment on Earth.

I would also consider the CM as proof they understood the organism as otherwise how could they create and program the CM to control the organism so well and make it into a Bio-Boosting armor?

Doesn't that suggest an underlying understanding of how the organism worked as they would need to know that to take advantage of its properties? Not to mention the already mentioned technology for using the Boost Dimension for both storage and travel.

a fair question, but with a little more thought you would arrive at the simple answer of efficiency. it's really not too much of a stretch to find that conclusion. why you would omit that i have no idea and it seems you are simply missing out obvious stuff in order to support your theory because a) you LIKE it, or b) you just want to argue.

you are an intelligent guy, please act like it.

Uh, sorry but to me that's like saying you put a UPS into your power grid just for efficiency when it's purpose is to provide an alternative power source because the main power is either not continuous (like a house running on solar energy) or unrealiable (such as from black outs or brown outs).

If the main power was working all the time then you wouldn't need a secondary power system. You'll only need a power regulator but the Gravity Control Orb isn't a power regulator, its a secondary power source.

Though providing a secondary power source does potentially make the system more efficient under cetain conditions but the only real reason to need a secondary power system is because you for one reason or another can't rely on the main power source.

Which is the point I was trying to get across! The existence of a secondary power source indicates the primary Bio-Boost isn't either not a continuous or reliable source of energy.

after all that, it seems your posts are growing in size, why is it that you wpost a whole lot more than any person here?

I like to be clear as possible and reply to any and all questions or arguments.

It basically just adds up, especially if I see I was misunderstood and need to find another way to explain myself.

I actually try to keep it short but rarely always succeed as I'm also trying to avoid confusion on what I'm stating and try to provide examples to back up what I say.

Needless to say balance isn't always easy to achieve.

[Jukai]

(edit: this was a response to YoungGuyver)

Whoa there, calm down, I just confused what you were trying to get at.

I'm getting confused cause when someone talks about converstions of mass and energy, it's usually in reference to a closed system. What you're talking about is an OPEN system.

Which, by the way, is fine.

Cause all you woulda had to have responded was, "yes Jukai, your initial understanding of my point was correct."

I felt I was missing something because this doesn't solve the problem of where the cells were getting the energy, which is what we were debating. So your idea just seemed a bit misplaced.

Also, you keep mentioning virtual particles. Care elaborating on that? Not sure what you mean, and it may get some conversation going in the right direction.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Jukai

[*zeo]

Uh, actually he is refering to a closed system.

He's suggesting alternate means of storing energy that wouldn't noticably show as mass.

Like how the Guyver Unit Stores itself in the Boost Dimension, so Sho can walk around without its mass effecting him even though it is only a dimension away from going back on him.

He could have a strong argument for this with the Zoalords, since some like Waferdanos were transformed from massive size of a forest to relatively small humanoid size.

But the problem with regular zoanoids is this would mean they would need to be recharged after every trasnformation and that hasn't been shown. It does for example specifically state normal zoanoids can sustain themselves on regular food.

So unless the system is super efficient that it would only work that way if they got stuffed back into a Bio-Tube after every battle. But that only seems to apply to the Libertus and the Enzyme III's.

Though virtual particles could be a different matter, here's a link for more detail.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle, if we combine them with the Zero Point Energy effect.

[Jukai]

Whoa, a whole lot there to respond to for Zeo. I'll just respond to my own:

@Jukai - The violation you mention only Applies to White Holes that don't involve Worm Holes. Those that do, do not violate the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. The disproving of White Holes was not that they were completely impossible but rather most likely impossible to ever occur naturally. Just like a stable wormhole that you could use for travel would also be very unlikely to ever be encountered. The Nature of a white hole would just be too unstable, but this doesn't rule out an artificially created White Hole under artificially regulated conditions.

As for Chi, I think you're missing the point that this is suppose to be in context with the Guyver Universe. It doesn't really matter if it's real or not in our world, only that it may be on some level possible and most importantly that Takaya could believe in it and thus use it in his story. Since part of this debate is to figure out Takaya's actual intent.

Besides, you are assuming it doesn't exist with no proof aside from your belief. It by no means you can't be wrong and that Chi does exist. Mind you I'm not saying you are wrong, just pointing out that we don't know for sure.

There are plenty of examples in science of conventional wisdom either being proven wrong or having to be revised to account for new information. Just look up how much we had to change our theory on Electricity due to research into Super Conductivity, which totally blew away most of our previous conceptions on the nature of the electricity. And these debates do tend to go into the theoretical so it helps to keep an open mind.

As to your question about the Bio-Boost, the answer is two fold...

1) The nature of energy siphon requires there be something for the energy to flow to. In this case the flow is provided by taking the energy and channeling it to create additional mass and the reverse when done. But if there is nowhere for the energy to go then there is no energy siphon. (Not to mention my previous point about efficiency and how much of the Bio-Boost energy is actually used)

A good analogy would be a siphon pump, like using a tube to siphon gas out of your car into a container for example. Creating a pressure differential allows for a flow of the fluid but once the system is equalized then the flow stops. The same would be true of any system that reaches equalization.

2) Without a device like the Gravity Control Orb or Gigantic Power Amps, then it requires energy in order to create the conditions for the Bio-Boost. So just like fusion you need an ignition energy point to make the process possible. So for each gain there is also a loss and only if there is a net gain would there be a continuous benefit (Same reason we don't have fusion reactors even though we know fusion works), but without a CM most life isn't efficient enough and thus energy gets wasted and the zoaform eventually exhausts their power and don't have the energy needed to bio-boost anymore.

*I don't believe there is any reason for them to mention the details on how the zoanoids transform any more than they needed to mention it for the Guyver, remember it's been about 26 books so far and we're still learning stuff about the Guyver. Even with the Gigantic they thought had a energy limit and then it went Exceed on them to prove them wrong.

Also consider it is entirely possible they don't understand how the zoaform process allows them to gain mass, they could easily attribute it to something else. Especially if it seems to only apply to allowing them to change their mass. For example they could attribute it to the Higgs Field and not really understand where the energy is coming from.

And Barcus already admitted he has some serious doubts about their knowledge on the Guyver when he discussed the artificial unit they created.

Btw, Barcus didn't exactly create the Enzyme acid from scratch. He took an enzyme that the organism naturally uses to break down the Bio-Armor and just mass produced it to overwhelm the armor, which is more of copying than creating.

Though you could easily replace my Bio-Boost idea with Zero-Point Energy, I just prefer the Bio-Boost Theory since it uses ideas already present in the story versus introducing ideas they haven't used or mentioned by Takaya.

Otherwise the reasons I mentioned for believing the Bio-Boost idea can also be easily applied to a Zero Point Energy explanation.

First off, artificially creating a white hole means using negative energy. Which means, you're not gaining any energy. Which means, no.

Secondly, I don't get why I can't say "Takaya probably disregarded the law of conservation of mass" while you can say that Takaya is using Chi to transform Zoanoids. There is no mention of Chi anywhere in the context of the Guyver universe, you can't even manipulate the text remotely to make you believe there is any semblance of Chi or Chakra or Ki or some sort of mythical energy. Hense, if I was told I can't just say Takaya is breaking the Law of Conservation of Energy to create Zoanoids because it's unscientific, I think Chi should be discluded in a list of theories. That's all.

Also, what's up with this "if we can't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist" stuff. Didn't you jump on me when you thought I was using creationist logic on you? (note: comment not meant to be mean, but I'm too cool to use an emote)

AND ANOTHER THING (also not meant to be mean), when I brought up the possibility that carbon dating may be wrong in the context of the story, you yelled at me saying Carbon dating is deffinitely not wrong. Now you're telling me that science proves and disproves stuff all the time! SHAME!

But I digress, your energy siphon statement is actually a damn good example, and sort of works perfectly. It doesn't just solve one problem but MANY problems for MANY theories. I like it.

The problem I still have is about how to actually SYPHEN ENERGY FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION. Just opening a doorway to the bio-boost dimension, I imagine, would take a tremendous amount of energy. When Sho calls the Guyver unit, the unit is ripping dimensions to get to Sho, which is fine, because the armor exists in the bio-boost dimension and hense has an unlimited amount of energy.

Zoanoids would need to be bending space by their lonesome...

Your theory depends on a minimal-energy method to first gather that bio-boost energy. I can't see this being done through any means, and stating things like "cells have EM fields" or "the brain is a quantum machine" doesn't really explain anything to me.

And although the fact that it isn't mentioned in the book may not bother you, it bothers me. If everything was getting their energy from the bio-boost dimension, you don't think that the dimension itself would play a greater role in the book? It's like saying that all super humans get their energy from the multiverse, like how Alchemy plays a huge role in FMA or Chakra plays a huge role in Naruto... if this was the LIFEFORCE of all super powered beings, it would have been mentioned. That's just my gut feelin', ya know?

Zero Point Energy is a better theory cause of the whole "no opening dimensions" thing and the "makes Guyvers unique and superior" thing.

I do also have to disagree with you on Balcus' knowledge though. There's no doubt in my mind he knows EVERYTHING there is to know about Zoanoids. Yes, he had doubts about his artificial CM he created, but regardless, he created an artificial control metal that has the ability to tap into the bio-boost universe... so chances are, he knows his stuff about regular Zoanoids, which are far easier to make (I'm assuming that since humans were made to be Zoanoids, so the process should be simpler than making your own Guyver unit)

Another thing:

"Btw, Barcus didn't exactly create the Enzyme acid from scratch. He took an enzyme that the organism naturally uses to break down the Bio-Armor and just mass produced it to overwhelm the armor, which is more of copying than creating."

Where did you get that the Enzyme is what the organism uses to naturally break down the bio-armor? I don't remember that. That makes Balcus even smarter and cooler.

edit:

Uh, actually he is refering to a closed system.

He's suggesting alternate means of storing energy that wouldn't noticably show as mass.

Like how the Guyver Unit Stores itself in the Boost Dimension, so Sho can walk around without its mass effecting him even though it is only a dimension away from going back on him

He could have a strong argument for this with the Zoalords, since some like Waferdanos were transformed from massive size of a forest to relatively small humanoid size.

But the problem with regular zoanoids is this would mean they would need to be recharged after every trasnformation and that hasn't been shown. It does for example specifically state normal zoanoids can sustain themselves on regular food.

So unless the system is super efficient that it would only work that way if they got stuffed back into a Bio-Tube after every battle. But that only seems to apply to the Libertus and the Enzyme III's.

I was under the assumption that, if we're dealing with another dimension, this suddenly makes a system OPEN, since energy can be transferred in and out of the equation. I could be wrong. I'm a Network Engineer. I only went so far in physics.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Jukai

[*Jess♥]

You know Ryuki, I was starting to reread this, got an idea, and then boop, came across your idea that lined up with mine.

Yep, I posted that a zoanoid processing facility should have a good energy reactor in order to infuse energy into zoanoids so they could mass shift. But then I was just thinking-zoanoids can mass shift, they can convert mass and energy already. Why not just give them mass, and allow THEM to convert it into energy. We already have tonnes of matter in useful forms around us already. Just feed the human intravenously while he's in the processing thank, allowing his body to naturally grow into a zoanoid, then let his form shift convert that mass into energy. Hence, no need for nuclear reactors. Problem solved.

Though, the exact type of energy storage is then a problem. Personally, I think there is something physical in the zoanoid cell that is being used as a battery, that in normal zoanoids can't tap into the regular body energy reserves. I think this is why we see a rubber band effect. I don't think we can say for certain that it is chemical energy, or a structural molecule attached to something in a certain place- but I think somehow it uses a rubber band effect to unleash energy. Is that rubber band effect accessing the boost dimension, or virtual particles? I don't know, and I don't think we can truly say with certainty. Pick your poison, but I think its best to be a bit vague on that for now

younguyver you couldn't have said it any better.

I think i'm totally on hte same page with you there.

[*Jess♥]

@zeo, too long didn't read.

your posts are growing and the reason is you are not staying completely on topic.

you don't need to argue with me about wether the bio-boster creature was hunting or not. I already said you cannot assume, it is still open. your best responce would be, 'ok i won't make statements like that' or even not to say anything.

if you want to debate that, make a new topic.

please stay on topic here.

I want to think also about zoacrystals.

this is pretty much the same issue.

zoalords carry massive amounts of energy around with them in the zoacrystal. this must use the same technique as zoanoids storing energy for their mass increase?

also, waferdanos was able to compress an entire forest using the zoacrystal.

so perhaps the zoacrystal is basically a big unit of the same kind of substance that may be present in human cells?

I think maybe a possibility that this type of structure is storing the energy somehow.

a crystal structure.... crystals are known for channeling energy.

for example a crystal ball is said to channel energy from spirits.

[*YoungGuyver]

Note to Zeo and Jukai:

-Keep to the point of the debate. Try not to stray too far from the topic at hand. Start a new thread if you need to discuss something too different

Try not to leave the posts too long. These are the guidelines.

Uh, actually he is refering to a closed system.

--------

But the problem with regular zoanoids is this would mean they would need to be recharged after every trasnformation and that hasn't been shown. It does for example specifically state normal zoanoids can sustain themselves on regular food.

Correct that I"m referring to a closed system, but incorrect that Zoanoids would have to recharge after every form shift. The mass energy conversion works both ways. It should be able to put it back to where it got it from afterwards. The energy that is stored for mass shifting is not linked to the energy reserves of the body. At least not apparently until Aptom, Enzyme, and the Libertus.

Sorry about not explaining virtual particles Jukai. But thanks for asking. Hopefully Zeo's link helps.

[*Jess♥]

Correct that I"m referring to a closed system, but incorrect that Zoanoids would have to recharge after every form shift. The mass energy conversion works both ways. It should be able to put it back to where it got it from afterwards. The energy that is stored for mass shifting is not linked to the energy reserves of the body. At least not apparently until Aptom, Enzyme, and the Libertus.

brilliant!!

dude, your mind is on fire at the moment!!

[*zeo]

@zeo, too long didn't read.

your posts are growing and the reason is you are not staying completely on topic.

Sorry about the long posts, in all honesty I'm not trying to be off topic but actually trying to be on topic.

Everything I have said has been an attempt to clarify the different aspects of my Bio-Boost theory on explaining the mass of zoanoids and the consequential concerns brought up by everyone on why the theory may not work.

My posts have grown because everyone is bringing up stuff that they think disproves the theory and I've been replying to each point and giving additional information on the premise of the theory to clarify what my theory actually en-tales. And whether or not it accounts for the concerns raised about it.

I'll try to break it up into different posts and not reply to everyone at the same time, as well as get to the point faster.

you don't need to argue with me about wether the bio-boster creature was hunting or not. I already said you cannot assume, it is still open. your best responce would be, 'ok i won't make statements like that' or even not to say anything.

if you want to debate that, make a new topic.

please stay on topic here.

Okay, let me explain why I was discussing that point and how it does relates to the topic at hand.

Basically, I was trying to clarify the nature of the Guyver Organism, since it is the basis for my Bio-Boost Theory for the Zoaforms. So I was taking the official description that the Organism in its natural state is Parasitic and contrasting it with the fact it is also called the Bio-Booster Organism.

The Clone Monster was primarily being used because it too was called Bio-Booster and it did demonstrate the properties that I think apply to the zoaform mass debate... For example it repeatedly altered its form and size from a Sho clone and a much larger monstrous form - Just like a Zoanoid.

This was also to differentiate what properties I think belong to the organism and what I think are induced by the Unit, since it seemed we had different interpretations of what a Bio-Boost en-tales. Clarification was thus needed.

But ignoring everything else I said, this suggests the ability to Bio-Boost is a natural function of the Organism, but since it is also described as being parasitic that the Bio-Boost natural function isn't as an alternate energy source, as otherwise the Organism wouldn't need to be parasitic.

So it suggest that it is just a means by which the organism can easily alter its mass for the purpose of mass-shifting. Which would then directly allow us to apply it to the zoaform transformation and how they can alter their mass but similarly don't seem to be empowered by the process.

The other point about the Gravity Control Orb was to indicate that the Creators understood how the Bio-Boost worked well enough to augment and improve upon it, since it is part of my conjecture that the Gravity Orb is not a natural part of the Organism and was put there by the Creators when they designed the Unit, along with the CM.

The Bio-Boosted Clone Monster can be used to show this conclusion to be likely true since it didn't have a Gravity Control Orb, as well as lacking many of the Guyver's weapons. Indicating the CM induces the Organism to create these items and that it is not natural to the organism itself. Consequently the purpose such items play in the functions of the Unit should be considered to separate the natural Bio-Boost from what the Unit induces through items such as the Gravity Control Orb.

Specifically, the described purpose of the Gravity Control Orb for siphoning energy further indicates its purpose is for a secondary power source which in turn indicates that the Bio-Boost isn't used as a continuous power source. Further supporting the idea the Bio-Boost natural function is just for mass shifting and that the Creators just adapted it to do more for the Guyver Unit.

I think that helps show how it fits in with zoaform transformation, in showing that it is possible the Creators would have known about the mechanism (It is my belief this is why the Creators made it the basis for their standard equipment) and used it for something similar to solve their zoanoid transformation requirements. That basically the Bio-Boost works like my Siphon Pump analogy I gave Jukai earlier.

Does that make sense now?

[*zeo]

Correct that I"m referring to a closed system, but incorrect that Zoanoids would have to recharge after every form shift. The mass energy conversion works both ways. It should be able to put it back to where it got it from afterwards. The energy that is stored for mass shifting is not linked to the energy reserves of the body. At least not apparently until Aptom, Enzyme, and the Libertus.

So you're assuming the energy to mass conversion would work at 100%?

But wouldn't the noticeable energy discharge of their transformation be a sign of waste energy?

The new Anime specifically seems to show a small glow for regular zoanoids and almost explosive discharge for hypers.

Or are you suggesting the energy loss would be negligible and can be basically ignored except for Hyper Metabolism Zoaforms like the Libertus and Enzyme III's?

[*Jess♥]

The other point about the Gravity Control Orb was to indicate that the Creators understood how the Bio-Boost worked well enough to augment and improve upon it, since it is part of my conjecture that the Gravity Orb is not a natural part of the Organism and was put there by the Creators when they designed the Unit, along with the CM.

[admin]

you did it again. you need to be more careful zeo. we are going to have to make this a guideline of our debating form because you cannot go around giving false facts about the manga.

[/admin]

Specifically, the described purpose of the Gravity Control Orb for siphoning energy further indicates its purpose is for a secondary power source which in turn indicates that the Bio-Boost isn't used as a continuous power source. Further supporting the idea the Bio-Boost natural function is just for mass shifting and that the Creators just adapted it to do more for the Guyver Unit.

hmm, it seems you're jumping to way to many conclusions with that paragraph.

why does siphoning energy make something a secondary power source? what kind of logic are you using here?

and if it did indicate that it was a SECONDARY power source... why does that mean that the bio boost is not coninuous? if it were not continuous.. as you say.. then that would not make the gravity globe secondary, it would make it primary. and no this would not change what bio-boost is.

bio-boost is the description of what the unit-g does. it increases the capability of the host. it is a bio-booster armour.

too many assumptions and not even a shred of logic as i recognise it.

you really need to throw all your baggage out of the window and start afresh. we may have made a lot of assumptions in the past but please have the decency to recognise them as assumptions and LET GO of them. :wink:

[Super Existence]

The Gravity orb is part of the organism as when sho regrew from the control medal all that was left was the medal and the entire Guyver regrew from that as did all the other metal orbs

[Jukai]

[admin]

you did it again. you need to be more careful zeo. we are going to have to make this a guideline of our debating form because you cannot go around giving false facts about the manga.

[/admin]

hmm, it seems you're jumping to way to many conclusions with that paragraph.

why does siphoning energy make something a secondary power source? what kind of logic are you using here?

and if it did indicate that it was a SECONDARY power source... why does that mean that the bio boost is not coninuous? if it were not continuous.. as you say.. then that would not make the gravity globe secondary, it would make it primary. and no this would not change what bio-boost is.

bio-boost is the description of what the unit-g does. it increases the capability of the host. it is a bio-booster armour.

too many assumptions and not even a shred of logic as i recognise it.

you really need to throw all your baggage out of the window and start afresh. we may have made a lot of assumptions in the past but please have the decency to recognise them as assumptions and LET GO of them. :wink:

Ryuki, I'm going to have to ask you to cut it out. You are being nasty and not taking Zeo seriously when in a lot of ways he's got good points and you really don't. You are debunking his statements without a shred of logic and at the same time you're being nasty about it. Cut the crap, man. Relax and actually debate him.

If you feel his points are straying from the arguement, don't respond to them.

Likewise, Zeo, to avoid confusion, you should focus on the main points (How Zoanoids store their mass, where they get their energy from, and elaborating on theories) while at the end of your posts, or in a short beginning statement, you can debunk whatever you like. You should also be a bit more careful when giving out points because you speak of them like the god-ordained truth. For example, you keep talking about how the human brain is like a quantum computer, when that is heavily up for debate and a lot of it is under fire in the scientific community. Be more specific when you are talking about theories that are assumptions and just meant to enlighten, and when you're actually sure of something that you think others are mistaken on.

For the record, I agree with Zeo on the fact that the Chronos Scientists in book six knew next to NOTHING about the Guyver Units, and that the bio-boost organism needs to "eat" (not necessarily hunt, but all creatures "hunt" in a sense to get food).

He's making assumptions, but they're more than probably right.

Can we continue this debate now?

[*zeo]

Thanks Jukai, for being the voice of reason, and I have to say you are absolutely right on everything you said. I do have to work on avoiding confusion.

The Gravity orb is part of the organism as when sho regrew from the control medal all that was left was the medal and the entire Guyver regrew from that as did all the other metal orbs

If that was true then why didn't the Bio-Booster Clone Monster have it?

[Jukai]

I'll answer that for Super Existence if you don't mind, Zeo

The question is if the Bio-Booster Clone Monster is a "complete clone." It looks nothing like the Guyver Unit, and you can either think "well.. that's what the organism would look like if it wasn't hampered by the control media" or you could say "it's just a random creature that came about randomly through the arm"

Either one could be correct and we'll never know cause it'll never tell us

I don't LIKE the Bio-Booster Clone Monster (as you guys keep aptly calling it) anyway, because throughout the series we are told that the DNA of a human is stored in the control media, and that Bio-Boosted monster disproves that completely. Which is aggrivating.

[Super Existence]

The bio-boosted clone monster seemed to be a fusion of Guyver and human dna, like the fly movie.

The reason the clone monster has none of the guyvers orbs is because the control medal forces the Guyver tissue to form them they aren't a natural part of the bioboosted organism.

There's a gravity orb on the unit itself probably as that could be one of the most complex parts to form so it could be it would need to be ready in an emergency. Every time a unit G has reformed it has had nothing but the Cm and some tissue which means conclusively that the G orb is organic just like the rest of the orbs sans the CM.

Guyver is a bioweapon and apart from the CM contains no technological components.

I also disagree about the debreifing; you're making out that the gigantic is relevant when it utterly isn't in relation to understanding Guyver that was a fusion between a unit-G and the navigation orbs of the Relic a total and utter freak occurrence it wasn't meant to happen, it's not as if the control medal spontaneously evolved without any outside influence, the Guyver didn't evolve it fused with another device.

And yes you're right about the viz translations but saying it's the scientists saying the equivalent of WOW is presumptuous. So far in Guyver Takaya never has someone say something that's utterly untrue simply to shock. So far everything a character says has a purpous unless it is subterfuge within the plot of the books.

I also acknowledged that Guyvers understanding is updated with a new revealed offensive or defensive ability but the Guyvers basic understanding will have been gathered from Guyver 2 such as boost dimension siphoning and control medal basic operations.

Read my posts in full please.

[Jukai]

Super Existance, I agree 100% with the beginning of your post. Everything on the Guyver, save the control media, is organic. I wouldn't say conclusively, but its more probable that the control media is forcing cell regrowth instead of using nanomachines to create metallic parts (considering its alive, and living things don't usually have nano machines in their body).

However, I'm not taking the majority of that statement from the scientists to heart. If I remmeber correctly, the debriefing was taking place in Arizona... while the knowledge fo the Guyver was mostly kept in Japan. The scientists had probably heard rumors of the Guyver, but didn't know anything deep and scientific.

I'm guessing all SCIENTIFIC information on the Guyvers was kept in Japan. If information was traded freely throughout Chronos, then the schematics of Enzyne I woulda been readily available to Balcus, and not destroyed in the destruction of Chronos Japan. Also, Chronos was a secret organization, so keeping information readily flowing throughout their organization would not be a wise thing to do (and being a Network Engineer and Security Analyst I AM the leading authority on that statement here).

I'm also gauging this by the scientists reaction. If the scientists knew about the bio-boost dimension, they woulda already known about the mega-smasher and all the other Guyver abilities. They would of read about them and known already of their destructive power. Instead, it looked like they were learning all fo these details for the first time. So, any utterances they said during that issue, I dunno if I would use them in any debate on this forum.

[*Jess♥]

Ryuki, I'm going to have to ask you to cut it out. You are being nasty and not taking Zeo seriously when in a lot of ways he's got good points and you really don't. You are debunking his statements without a shred of logic and at the same time you're being nasty about it. Cut the crap, man. Relax and actually debate him.

If you feel his points are straying from the arguement, don't respond to them.

excuse me?

I asked zeo what logic he was using. I didn't say there wasn't any.

I then said there wasn't a shred of logic AS I RECOGNISE IT. explaining my perspective as not understanding how it was logical

now you have just been very rude to me.

and you told me that I haven't got any good points.

way to go upsetting the site admin.

don't ask me for any favours any time soon.

I take zeo VERY SERIOUSLY. I have debated with zeo on and off for about 5 years.

If I didn't take zeo seriously, I wouldn't respond to his posts or advise him how to change his technique.

[Jukai]

Ryuki, I wasn't going to ask for favors anyway. If you really want me to, I can go back and show you everytime you overreacted to Zeo and how you're telling him he's violating rules which you yourself are violating.

So far, besides Zeo having awful organization when debating, he hasn't violated any rules I have seen. If you wish to continue this conversation off the debate board, feel free to delete this message and give me a PM. But I feel you've gravely overreacted and in turn, ignored a lot of great points Zeo has made.

PM me or re-read what you've said and come to your own conclusion. Either/or.

[*Jess♥]

jukai if you have any problem with the way a forum admin or moderator behaves, you need to talk to another admin about it and let them handle it. it is not your place to judge how People behave on this forum.

as far as I am concerned I have behaved appropriately. you are out of line right now.