Jukai's & Zeo's debate

[*zeo]

I didn't address it because it doesn't change anything.

Besides it was based on a flawed premise that would only be valid if we were talking about different scenes. Then there wouldn't be a direct comparison and we could argue whether it was artistic interpretation or not.

Only then would there be no authority aside from Takaya.

However the scenes in question depict the exact same period in time of the Creators arriving and landing on the Earth, showing essentially the same scene and just drawn differently.

Just like G2 was later drawn differently when we know he was originally drawn almost exactly like G1, giving us a direct comparison to plainly tell us it was artistic interpretation.

And you still haven't shown me where your quote is, you're just claiming it exists

Sigh... I already said it was right where they were talling Archanfel the history behind his and human creation. Did you not bother to read that part?

If you must be lead there go to book14-82.jpg and start reading!

It's right in the panel showing human evolution.

And I have addressed your points.

As for SE, he just presented a logical alternative explaination that works with what we are shown, the stasis containment of the Guyver Unit can preserve the organism for millions of years. This means the Creators had the technology to put things into stasis. We also know from the Manga that they put many of their test animals in stasis, these were shown floating in the Creator Bio-Tubes around Archanfel as he slept during the ice age the asteroid fragments caused. This in part is where all the creatures on Silha island came from when Archanfel released them from the Relic, which is also another indication he had awakened between the time the Creators left and when he met Barcas.

So SE's theory does provide an alternate theory for how the Creators could have spent so much time on Earth, though it does have the problem of how they could have kept accurate tabs on the progress of the experiment it is an alternative to simple long life.

As for guessing...

Incorrect, guessing is coming to a conclusion without any logical analysis. My conclusions were neither random nor without something to back them up. Ergo they were logical analysis giving us a logical conclusion.

While guessing is suggesting things without anything but your opinion to back them up.

Now as to your claim that I haven't provided proof... What I have given you is proof because I have given you a series of examples through at least 4 of the books as well as other sources like the OAV.

If you judged the evidence without bias then it becomes apparent what it all leads to and what the actual intent of Takaya was. Most of the the other stuff was just showing examples for comparison.

You want to interpret the evidence in other ways, fine but don't just ignore the obvious interpretation and just go straight to your fanciful ones.

So let's go through them...

*Nowhere does it say the Creators accelerated evolution, you have to account for this. It may be possible but doesn't mean they did it.

*It does say the Creators used manipulation of the ecosystem but the ecosystem is the environment, which means they made no direct manipulations until they started zoaforming humans. Otherwise the statement would be false and brings up the question of why they would say that if that isn't what they did.

*Your theory that they had goes against the statement that they achieved their goals through manipulation of the ecosystem.

Never mind genetic manipulation only works if you know what you are going to make otherwise you simply cause random mutations that could easily destroy your experiment and you would have to start from scratch.

Some of the reasons People fear Genetic engineered food for example is precisely because of the dangers of creating a harmful mutation or causing a cross species contanimation of genetic information. Like for example if you had a compromised digestive tract GM food could get into your body and transfer its genetics to you, causing harmful mutations and disease. Especially if the retrovirus used to manipulate the genetic information was still present.

Now imagine how hard it would be to balance and maintain order on a genetic experiment that encompasses an entire planet? Basically what you proposed is for practicality sake insane as no amount of precautions would ever be enough.

Course you could point to something like Waferdanos but I could point out there was a reason why he was isolated to a single island. But the dinosaurs were never that isolated so there would have been limits to what the Creators could have done.

Besides if what you suggest was true then they could also have killed the dinosaurs off without dropping a meteor on them, thus proving your assumption to be wrong. Especially considering the level of damage and collateral damage dropping a Meteor on the planet involves would make it very hard to explain why they did it if an easier alternative was available.

*The zoaforming process wasn't created over night, Silha island is full of prototypes that show the Creators had to develop the zoaforming technology even after they chose humans to be their warrior race.

*Zoaforms are genetically engineered with DNA drawn from all life, creating a new battle form based on various combinations of genetic traits. However in order to have that database of genetic information the Creators would have to have done eons worth of research on every possible genetic combinations.

On the next point of contention... The image I posted was from the debate from the person who was claiming the asteroid was Mars size, remember we were arguing why someone claimed it was Mars size to begin with and why I was saying it was slightly smaller, point of fact if you do compare the diameters of both it does give that impression, my correction was for depth of field.

.

Fact is the Earth has a diameter of 12756.1 km, meaning pluto wouldn't even come close to a quarter of the diameter of the Earth. Let alone near half as the shown impacting Asteroid clearly is.

Mars though is 6780 km, or just barely over half the diameter of the Earth. Now taking two circles with the diameters of the Earth and Mars and then overlay them will give you the same image as shown in the posted image.

The problem is neither are flat 2D objects so I corrected the analysis for depth of field, approximately 4-6 thousand km, and estimated that the size of the Asteroid was actually closer to Mercury, which has a diameter of 4,878 km (Over twice Pluto's).

So your confusion aside, my correction is a valid one.

Just to clarify, the guy who made the argument for Mars size stated this along with the image...

Using Earth as a rule, Earth is 12,745 kilometers in diameter, I measured Earth as being 278 pixels give or take a pixel or two. This gives us 45.87 kilometers for each pixel. The asteroid is 158 pixels in diameter give or take a pixel or two. This gives us a diameter of 7,242.7 kilometers in a diameter. That is well over twice the diameter of the Moon.

So he just labeled it wrong, but doesn't change the original claim made from that image that it was Mars size. And that was what I was responding to.

Then on you next point. . . Zoanoids didn't exist until after the project was done, once they had their war race they customized them. And Silha island is full of the experiments it took to develop the zoaform technology. Showing the technology took time to develop and wasn't available before the arrival of humans on the scene.

stop using this odd scientific logic on me, you're forgetting that Khan can turn into a smegging awesome dragon by absorbing other human beings into his body. Can you scientifically explain THAT to me?

Well, since you asked, I could since I know the principle by which Takaya based the character and know enough about science to see how it works.

It does help that Takaya used actual biological references to describe what Aptom all the way through to Khan actually do. We just don't have the technology to do it ourselves, fictional status aside, but we can understand the principles by which they work. Just like we can understand how certain medicines work even though we don't have the technology to produce it ourselves and have to draw it from natural biological sources because the molecules responsible is too complex for us to recreate with our present technology.

Though I need to correct you again and point out Khan can only absorb zoanoids, not humans persay. He accomplishes this by a combination of his natural ability to control zoanoids and a very Aptom like ability to take over the biology of other zoanoids and assimulate them into his body.

So like Aptom he basically eats them and makes them part of himself but unlike Aptom, who does it in a parasitic way (he was based on John Carpenter's "The Thing"), he doesn't infect them to do it.

Aptom is the more realistic of the two, since he infects his host and like a virus takes over. Real world viruses do the same thing and retro-viruses can rewrite DNA, Aptom is just more complex but works under the same basic principle as a virus.

In principle it isn't too different from how we eat, we digest and make the raw material part of our body. They just do it in a more complex and far more rapid ways, though in either case the end result is the same. The zoanoid dies and becomes part of their body and the process is irreversable.

Kinda like a nightmare version of nanite technology, each nanite, or in their case cell, can break down and assimulates a given target mass. Like the Borg, etc.

Now the problem with simply making dinosaurs bigger not only involves potentially contaminating the gene pool but they would also still need to do research. Especially when deciding how big they wanted them. After all size has to be balanced with speed and they would have to experiment with different designs to find the designs that could succeed at larger sizes, or the dinosaurs could have collapsed from their own weight, etc.

Case in point, using a real world example, before we discovered that T-Rex was more like a bird than a reptile our original models of T-Rex showed its bones would be so dense that if it ever fell while running it would literally kill itself and couldn't run very fast at all.

But analysis of the bone structure showed it was more like bird bones and thus light, cutting off tons to the T-Rex estimated weight and showing us the T-Rex could run at least 30 MPH and was fairly agile. But making them less dense is fairly counter intuitive to what we would have expected but shows how nature can come up with solutions we wouldn't have thought of. But also shows that doing it on purpose would have taken many tries.

Now multiply that by how many different type of dinosaurs there were and even with direct genetic manipulation it would have taken them a very long time to go through all the variables.

The environment would also have to be adjusted and they would have to make sure what they did didn't effect all life. Remember all these creatures were part of a food chain.

It also doesn't change the fact they would still have to test each and every one of the dinosaurs. They weren't all T-Rex's after all, in fact T-Rex was one of the last dinosaurs to evolve since it is from the Jurassic period. All of which means it would take time before they eventually come to the conclusion that dinosaurs weren't the way to go and they couldn't really cut corners.

And again if they had genetically engineered the dinosaurs then they could also have just killed them off the same way but the fact they resorted to smashing the planet with a giant meteor and causing massive devastation that effected the entire ecosystem means quite clearly that they did not. Otherwise the use of the Meteor would make no sense.

The fossil that Archanfel saw shows that they let millions of years pass before humans evolved. Further indicating they limited themselves to controlling the environment to manipulate life and evolution.

I also disagree with your supposition that there is no science in the Guyver Story...

1) Just to be clear I'm basing my opinion on both the Manga and Real World Science, using the science to logically analyze what is shown in the Manga and to test how realistic Takaya's ideas are.

2) It's a sci-fi series, meaning it involves both science and fantasy, so you are wrong that it isn't based on science at all. There is science behind many of the concepts in the Guyver Manga.

Examples:

Lasers, are real.

That human's evolved from more primitive mammals is true.

Black Holes and such are based on actual scientific theories.

Storing and/or accessing higher dimensions is a principle drawn from scientific theories.

Genetic engineering is a real science, Takaya even has Chronos use retro-viruses and embryonic fluids in the zoaforming process.

Legends of werewolves and such are mythical but they are also part of our history.

Etc.

Takaya just mixes it all into his fictional story.

So just because the story is fictional doesn't mean we can't logically analyze it and test it for both Takaya's intent and the accuracy of his story.

Japan as a nation was made BEFORE the US as a nation

Correction, Japan was an empire, complete with an Emperor, before WWII, now they are a demoncracy. So no they were not the way they are now before the US was a nation.

Never mind a little known fact about Japan during WWII was they not only took technology from their ally Germany but they also improved on that technology, if we hadn't bombed them they might have developed the technology to be an even greater threat than Germany had been.

It is also incorrect to say all the technology was given to them. Japan innovates and creates new technology, its one of the reasons we buy from them instead of US companies.

Ditto with South Korea, the US isn't leading in robotic development nor in cellphone technology.

Another sci-fi story example we can draw conclusions from is the STTNG: The Masterpiece Society episode, showing a genetically perfect race with supposedly the best minds and the best well oiled society structure. Yet they weren't as advance as those they left behind on Earth and the solution to their problem came from the technology developed for Geardi visors, a person who never would have existed in their society.

This applies to the Creators because their technology would prevent disease and other problems. Their society would also not be prone to radical thinkers, even with each having their own personality some levels of creativity comes from those who aren't perfect. Meaning a race of geniuses may not actually develop as quickly as an imperfect race full of diversity and random variables. Adding yet another factor to believe the Creators aren't advancing at a rapid rate.

Those People in India who are in tech support, where do you think they went to college to get their education!

Most of them are graduates of the Indian Institute of Technology, better known as IIT... Why? You thought it was outside their country or something?

Another factor is motivation and opportunity.

Like taking WWI Germany and comparing it to WWII Germany, aside from motivation it's the same People but with so much motivation that they developed advance technology and even put themselves in a position to try to take over the world in just a few years, despite the fact they were practically bankrupt after WWI, since they were forced to pay war reparations.

While other similar nations that had no revolutionary motivation progressed at a far slower pace. This is like a 3rd World nation turning itself into a 1st world nation over night.

And those who follow history know the German scientists were taken by both the US and Russia and are the basis for some of our rapid development. The inventor of the space shuttle for example was one of these former German scientists. (I believe I mentioned that before)

The Creators however don't have such motivations, at least none that we know of and seemed overly logical from the few conversations we have seen them give.

You seem to be angry at religious People who believe differently than you. This could possibly be a reason why it's HEARSAY to think that the Creators rushed the evolution of earth

Nothing of the sort, I'm just a firm believer in logical reasoning and will point out when someone is coming to a conclusion counter to the actual evidence.

However, I do believe the earth was made from stardust and rock 4.5 billion years ago.

I just don't believe it in the context of the Guyver universe.

It could be one or two billion years. Maybe 100 million.

But with such vast technology, there's no reason to believe otherwise

There's possible and then there is practical, speeding things up when they had to do the research anyway doesn't make sense. Especially since speeding it up involves using processes that would disrupt the natural flow of evolution and cause ramification through the entire ecosystem.

For example you introduce a new species to an area that isn't adapted for that species and you can completely upset the local balance, especially if the new area has no natural predators, etc.

Like the Japanese Beatle that is killing trees here in the states or the African Killer Bees that is progressively killing off and replacing Bee colonies in the South America and the US.

In short tampering can have unforseen consequences and until the Creators were sure of what they wanted to develop they couldn't risk such tampering as it could effect everything.

Just because they could do it doesn't mean they would or that it would even be a good idea to do it when it could cause so many problems that they could easily wind up having to start from scratch.

I don't know about you but waiting a few million years to get a result that they wanted makes more sense than risking a result they don't want and have to wait another Billion years to get back to where they was before they tampered.

Just because we have 2.5billion fossils of primative life form, doesn't mean our science in carbon dating could be wrong, in both REAL LIFE and the story.

Carbon dating is a proven science, and we have more than one sample that we tested. Meaning there is accumulative proof backing the measurement.

I also stated we have other ways of determining age, the revelant point is this is commonly accepted to be fact and Takaya would use it just like he would use a map of a city to properly lay out where his characters were, etc.

After all Takaya didn't invent concepts like Black Holes, space travel, aliens, lasers, explosive chemicals, genetic engineering, etc. He just uses them in his story.

edit:

After reading a few more posts, I am want to go back to point D

Zeo is 100% right

he's just phrasing it in a really odd and confusing way

Perhaps information overload?

Other than that, yes you now understand the point of those examples.

[*Jess♥]

*It does say the Creators used manipulation of the ecosystem but the ecosystem is the environment, which means they made no direct manipulations until they started zoaforming humans. Otherwise the statement would be false and brings up the question of why they would say that if that isn't what they did.

where do you get your definitions?

i just wanted to clear this up -

An ecosystem is a natural unit consisting of all plants, animals and micro-organisms (biotic factors) in an area functioning together with all of the non-living physical (abiotic) factors of the environment.

Christopherson, Robert W. (1997). Geosystems: An Introduction to Physical Geography, 3rd (in english), Upper Saddle River, NJ, USA: Prentice Hall Inc.. ISBN 0-13-505314-5.

also I'd like to request that you stop using so many factoids in your posts.

that's why People find it tough to read. I'm not the only one who has trouble, it seems.

[*zeo]

And what part of that doesn't mean Environment? I wasn't limiting the definition to just temperature or things like that Ryuki.

If all things are working together then wouldn't messing with one thing effect it ALL?

Remember I also mentioned things like food chain, which is also part of the ecosystem equation!

Manipulating the ecosystem doesn't mean selective changes to just one species, it means you change the living system of the whole environment.

Remember the definition you just gave specifically said with all things in a given environment working/functioning together, which means if you manipulate the ecosystem you are manipulating how all those things work off each other.

Like stimulating the plant life to produce more oxygen, just make it rain more, means bugs and animals can grow bigger.

Or reducing the available water in a area limit the number of available species and cause the local life to adapt.

Or killing off a species can make other species the ability to evolve without predators or the opposite.

None of which requires or suggest direct genetic manipulation.

For example the origin for the reason why humans walk upright is thought to be because at the time there was considerable droughts and reduction in forest that forced our ancestors to walk and walking upright is more efficient and easier to maintain.

Thus we can see how adjusting the ecosystem can change the course of evolution.

And I did point out the dangers to radically altering any species in an ecosystem with genetic manipulation.

[*Jess♥]

And what part of that doesn't mean Environment? I wasn't limiting the definition to just temperature or things like that Ryuki.

actually you were using your 'definition' to exclude direct manipulation of the genomes.

it says it right there in your post. don't turn this back on me.

is this your method of debate?

I'm breaking this down here.

if your method of debate is saying something, waiting for someone to challenge what you said and then attack what they say whilst completely forgetting what they are actually replying to?

that is not debating. it is simply a very elaborate form of provocation.

if it continues we will have to analyse teh situation more thoroughly and take appropriate action.

[*zeo]

No that isn't my method of debate.

Actually my method of debate is to provide an answer, usually summarized since the details I go into far exceed what I write in my posts (believe it or not I'm trying to keep it short), and only correct misinterpretations when it crops up.

For one I never changed my stance on this one and I haven't forgotten what was said.

For example it might have helped to also look up the definition of the word Environment as well as Ecosystem to give a direct comparison of the two terms..

Environment does includes this in its definition...

The totality of circumstances surrounding an organism or group of organisms, especially:

a. The combination of external physical conditions that affect and influence the growth, development, and survival of organisms

The whole point of my clarification is the fact that only manipulation of the ecosystem is mentioned in the Manga.

Manipulation of the ecosystem means you manipulate the system of how everything interacts, because that is what is meant by the ecosystem.

It's called Eco (as in ecology) - System after all!

You don't manipulate a system by working outside its rules now do you?

Really, just go to a site like, http://www.the-farm-business-gym.com/ecosy...-processes.html

Which shows the usual methods we use to control an ecosystem.

While genetic manipulation is an entirely different method of control that would have serious ramifications to an ecosystem if not done properly and on a planetary scale there is no real way to be sure nothing would go wrong.

The quote you posted doesn't contradict that and I just clarified that it didn't change what I said and that I wasn't limiting it by using the term Environment or saying it excludes direct manipulations versus indirect manipulation that manipulating the ecosystem would involve.

However your post suggested you believed it was limitating and other possibilities should be open and thus I corrected that misinterpretation of what I had stated, nothing more.

[Toku Warrior]

Ok, this is starting to go a little to far. Please find a way to resolve this soon or we will have no choice but to close this thread. I like going at it in a debate/arguement as much as the next person when I have a point to prove but this has gone above that point.

Please don't take it where the admins and/or mods have to step in and take action. I'm sure you 2 can settle this like reasonable adults....and lovers of Guyver.

Thank You.

[*zeo]

I agree, my intent is not to provocate but to get everyone thinking and use logical reasoning instead of just assuming things, which I hope I have done.

So if you want you can have your last says Jukai and I won't reply to finish this debate and then someone can lock the topic.

[Toku Warrior]

Thank you for being reasonable about the current situation at hand Zeo. It's very much appreaciated.

[*YoungGuyver]

Ah man, I was just getting into this. I thought I had some good points to make too.

Anyway, Zeo, you commented on how we knew somehow Chronos used virus for genetic engineering? How? We naturally assumed it, because it made sense to us. At no point in the Manga that I am aware of did they specifically say they did. They mentioned the anti-Aptom virus that slows his metabolism and such. But we assumed they used a virus to change the DNA in every cell of a human to turn them into a zoanoid, because that's what virus's do, and one method of very efficient DNA modification. We don't know if Chronos has another, more alien method. Doubtful, but possible.

Though I agree with Zeo's stance on science. Jukai made a point that the Creators may indeed have accelerated things, but I doubt it. Not with the fossils, and not since the intent of the story is to make it look like our world at first. It's the 'world we see is a Sugar coated topping' scenario.

I'm certain I was going to say a few things, but I'm extremely pleasantly drunk at the moment, so I'll say whatever I can possibly remember.

I need to look up the scanlations again. Because Jukai said the Creators said that they increased the size of the dinosaurs to make them a threat. And Zeo says that the Creators never interfered with evolution, otherwise it would damage the experiment. That they never interfere with genetics, no geneticy interfeering until afterwards. That's just stupid on a level. Guiding evolution in any way is interfering, using direct genetic manipulation or not. Any interference is still interference in the process of evolution. Such as genetically modifying the organisms of the ecosystem to ensure that they can process or use certain atmospheres. Giving them the required chemical components would only make sense. Even doing a duel experiment would make sense (giving it to one group of organisms, and denying it to another, but putting them in an environment where it would be required). For all we know, a high energy demand organism was developed that way. For all we know, regular cellular life absorbed mitochondria in the experiment because mitochondra had been given the proper DNA sequences by the creators, and both types of cellular life had been put in the same environment, and regular cells adapted by absorbing the good old mito's. Evolution is a little erratic. I never forget the computer self designing circuit experiment from college. One part giving tools, and one part evolution to perform a desired function.

It said Waferdonas was a later experiment? I need to look at the scanlation again. I think I will when I'm sober. I don't want to be sober, this is too much fun.

I had another good point. At one point do the Creators decide to start genetic engineering after so many years of non-interference? I mean, Waferdonas, Sihla, and the development of the zoanoid. All a sudden spurt of genetic engineering after so long of non-interference, with the exception of making it rain more? (I'm picking a random extreme with rain for emphasis). I love emphasis. Emphasis is a good thing. And being drunk, I like saying it. But yes, Ryuki had a good point when he said that ecosystem includes a lot of things, including organisms that use DNA. There is nothing in there that says they couldn't manipulate the DNA of any of those creatures. Especially if instilling a food source was an excellent way of distributing new genetic material. If the black knight is indeed a creator, would it be random chance that he had five fingers? Or would the Creators had wanted animalian life at its very base to have a similar feature? (Dolphins have five bones in their pectoral fins, all animals have similar five finger bones some how-with the exception of armless snakes, which once had arms but lost them)

Oh, and the Relics in the new version of the manga, in the version where Takaya took the opportunity to revise his artwork and mostly update it, had the mushroom relics when they first landed. Even the new Anime had the mushroom ships at that point.

[Jukai]

Actually my last word is that debates are never really friendly and arguing with Zeo has had me think of a 1000 different scenarios for Guyver, and I'd hope Zeo thinks the same. Probably not, but I can hope. Also, I hope Phantom turns a blind eye and lets this continue!

And ecyosystem according to every online dictionary on the internet means the enviroment and the creatures in it, and saying that if the Advent only changed on thing and didn't effect everything else that then they couldn't use the word 'ecosystem' is downright silly!

Edited May 4, 2008 by Jukai

[Toku Warrior]

Sorry Jukai, but I can't turn a blind eye. All the admins see how things go when a debate starts going overboard which this one started doing. I just decided to nip it in the butt before it got even more out of hand.

You can still debate if ya want but in one of two ways:

1) keep the edgey arguing down to a minimal and make your posts at least a few paragraphs cuz it gets hard reading posts that are longer than 3-5 pages in Microsoft Word similarities (you should understand what I mean by that little comparison).

2) Do it via PM. This way you can argue/debate the way you want to your hearts content without making ridiculously long posts. Sound fair?

Also, Zeo would also have to agree to this as well if he wishes to continue the debate some more. I know he said he was done but he may want to add more input but only if he wants too. Just please, keep things to a minimal. It's not an official board rule but more like both common sense and common curtosy to those that read and reply to others posts.

I don't want to come off as being bossy or rude to anyone it's just that even though I try to stay out of the scientific area (Science is not one of my areas of expertease) and not interfere with peoples discussions we try to maintain a friendly environment. Ok, People can get on eachothers nerves and some things may be overlooked cuz those things may not be harmful but we don't want things going all to hell.

I hope everyone can see where I'm coming from with this post. Both the regular board members, V.I.P. members, & my fellow mods and admins.

If anyone has any complaints and/or concerns about anything I just mentioned then please PM me.

[*zeo]

Actually my last word is that debates are never really friendly and arguing with Zeo has had me think of a 1000 different scenarios for Guyver, and I'd hope Zeo thinks the same. Probably not, but I can hope. Also, I hope Phantom turns a blind eye and lets this continue!

And ecyosystem according to every online dictionary on the internet means the enviroment and the creatures in it, and saying that if the Advent only changed on thing and didn't effect everything else that then they couldn't use the word 'ecosystem' is downright silly!

Not silly, just a direct interpretation. If the eco-system (ecological-system) is how everything interacts then manipulating the ecosystem means you are controlling the interactions, not going in changing the elements involved.

EcoSystem:

*An ecological community together with its environment, functioning as a unit.

*Ecology the system of relationships between animals and plants and their environment

*A community of organisms together with their physical environment, viewed as a system of interacting and interdependent relationships and including such processes as the flow of energy through trophic levels and the cycling of chemical elements and compounds through living and nonliving components of the system.

I'm just going by what the word actually means. If you're working with the system to manipulate it then you're not doing something outside the system like genetic engineering would be.

I hope that clears up where I'm coming from...

I think we should take it to PM if you want to continue Jukai.

Other than that, yes this debate has been fun and you have got me thinking of all the possible scenarios.

Sorry if I came across as inflexible, I just try to keep what I think the Manga shows and what I think is possible separate in debates that effect the official information.

Fact is I help write a Guyver Fan Fiction that is pretty wild compared to the original Takaya story. So if this had been a theoretical debate it would have been no holds barred.

[Jukai]

hahahah so much for being the bigger man and letting me have the last word, huh? You couldn't do it couldya.

Nah, I think you take things too literally and our arguments would sorta be going back and forth. If others could see and weigh in, it's one thing, but if we did it outselves, it'd be a bit boring. Might as well just lock it.

[*Jess♥]

either that or you could remember what the point was in the first place and make a summary and come to an agreement.