Azaar

Whee... back from moving yesterday, and I find more to read and reply to... Sith Guyver: It depends on whether the Creators want to actually be allies, or whether they're planning on using humanity again as unwitting pawns (I'll explain that in a bit more detail below). Weltall2: Okay... are the Creators evil? Individually, no. Draven, Krullnar and Galen (and Solom, from when he was thawed out until he died) seemed quite receptive to the idea of humanity getting along with the Creators. As a group entity... that is a question much more difficult to answer. Yes, the Creators used humanity before, when experimenting on them and (in the process) inadvertantly discovering the Guyver effect. They wanted their own little army, and knew they were too weak to do it themselves, since the Unit-G basically made them about ten times as strong as a normal human and gave them a physical form. It boils down to whether the Creators are willing to step off the "we are superior to humanity" soapbox and actually be the allies that the individual Creators like Draven and the rest, or whether they plan to just use humanity more. Right now, they're using humanity: the individual Creators might not be (or might not have intended to do as much), but they are. Why is Chronos fighting a war of attrition with the Guyvers on Earth? Because the Creators have made a point of dumping new test units on Earth specifically for that purpose. They might claim that it's to test the units, and to a certain degree they're justified in using that answer, but like it's been said before, it only benefits the Creators to dump the units on Earth, where humans can activate them and be drawn into fighting Alkanphel and Chronos for them. As Matt Bellamy stated in another thread: Chronos' purpose is to build an army capable of taking on the Creators and winning. Unfortunately, it's not likely to happen, given that the Creators have 10 trillion Kavzar as their front line troops, 10 million Kavzar Commanders, and 4,000 Enforcer Kavzar... and that's not including all the Aceaer-Caste warriors within the Empire. So why are the Creators worried over Alkanphel... or for that matter, should they be? The Creators have a definite numerical superiority that Chronos can't match. The Zoanoids are, generally speaking, goners, and that leaves Alk and his Zoalords against the combined might of the Creators. Alk's screwed, he just doesn't know it yet. Sully said before that even if the Creators sent one percent of their armies at Earth, then Earth is dead and gone and there's nothing to be done to stop it. The Creators, in short, have proved they aren't ready to be the allies (as a group) that the individuals like Draven and Krullnar are willing to be. I will admit, though, that humanity isn't ready for that step either. Despite that, the Creators will use humanity again. They used humanity before, they're using humanity now... yes, I think the Creators will continue to use humanity to benefit themselves. It's not any different than how Alk and Chronos are treating humanity... but as they say, better the evil you know than the evil you don't...

True enough. Only reason I used TFs was to help illustrate my point a little better, but I'll keep it in check. I won't argue that, power-wise, humanity has the deck stacked against them. They might not be able to do much of anything (if anything at all) of an offensive nature to them, unless they somehow learned how to play with genetics the way the Creators do and make up some sort of genetically tailored disease/virus and use it against Chronos and/or the Guyvers. But I like to think that humanity could (and should) be allowed to make up their minds on this little war between Chronos, the Guyvers, the Grakkens, and the Creators... at least as to whether they want to be in the middle of it, or tell them to pack up and take the fight somewhere else. Unfortunately, humanity wasn't allowed that choice, and now they're on the short end of the stick, forced into the middle because the various sides (mostly Chronos, but the Creators are just as guilty, and the Guyvers are mostly being pulled along their strings behind the scenes by the Creators) refuse to allow humanity to decide what they want. It's become a battle of what everyone else wants. But what does everyone want? Chronos wants an army to lay down the smack on the Creators. Alkanphel and the rest of the Chronos Zoalords are intent on enslaving humanity and forcing them to become Zoanoids (or, for the ones with better potential, Zoalords), so that when Alkanphel's ready, he can storm the gates of heaven (so to speak) and lay waste to the Creators for abandoning him and then trying to kill him (and everyone else on Earth). The Creators want to use humanity as the dangling carrot to force the Guyvers to fight Chronos. Everything I've read points to the Creators (in the name of their science) to sit back and watch everything unfold. Why the Creators are even concerned about Chronos is beyond me... after all, they have all those Aceaers, Kavzars, and Kavzar Commanders, never mind the Enforcer Kavzars (rare as they might be, I think there's still quite a few around). And they're worried over old zoaform technology that they virtually discarded (in favor of the Kavzar, I might add) more than two million years ago? Doubtful. The Creators, in my mind, just want to sit back and drop a bunch of Guyver units onto Earth, and force humanity to become nothing more than a commodity to be argued over by the Guyvers and Chronos. The Guyvers... most of them seem to just want revenge for something that happened because of something that either Chronos or the Creators did to them in the past. Those who didn't get slighted by Chronos or the Creators just wanted the power the Unit-G could give them, and proceeded to take that power. That might be a harsh judgment, but that seems to be the theme of most of the characters now, and it's used as an excuse to get revenge on Chronos or the Creators: Agito has always been power-hungry and world-dominating like Pinky and the Brain, for example, hence why he took the third Japanese unit and took the path he's now on. Protecting humanity sounds nice as a common cause to fight for, but in the end, it's all about the quest for revenge against their enemies, and humanity is reduced to the status of innocent (and likely to die) bystanders. Hopefully I've not offended everyone by now. The WG.com writers are quite adept at giving us a good read, and there's a lot of story still left to tell (which I eagerly await). This is just my take on things, and I'm sure that as drawn-out as this last diatribe has been, I'm still not seeing the whole picture.

I never said the Decepticons were acting selfish: in fact, they acted the best way they felt confident in acting to ensure that they were never again treated the way the Quintessons treated them: as slaves. Not only did that philosophy apply to the Quints, but it also applied to any and every other species that the 'Cons came into contact with: whether that was overkill or not, I'll leave to others to debate. But back on-topic. Yes, Alk is dragging everyone else into it. It's the main reason I think eventually humanity will reach the breaking point and just snap. Humanity is being used. The Guyvers are being used, for that matter... by both sides. Both Chronos and the Creators are playing humanity (and the Guyvers supposedly protecting humanity -- or rather, as I prefer to call it, claim to protect humanity while undergoing their own personal quests for vengeance) off each other, and I think that eventually humanity will get sick of it and do something about it. Prime example (at the risk of moving slightly off-topic again, but I assure you, it bears relavance): Kingdom Come (if you've not read this DC Elseworlds graphic novel... read it: best one I've ever read, hands down). Metahumans are out of control, fighting just to fight. The supervillains are by and large gone, although several do remain, yet the "heroes" can't help but continue the vicious cycle of fighting and endangering humanity in the process. Even Superman's re-founded "Justice League" is subject to it. What happens? Humanity gets tired of it, and decides to reclaim responsibility for themselves, rather than letting the metahumans dictate how they live, and act decisively to take back control of their lives. I have the feeling that, slowly but surely, humanity is doing the same here in the WG fics. They're playthings to Chronos (who twists them into Zoanoids) and to the Creators (who "use" them as an excuse to encourage the Guyvers to continue fighting the war of attrition that Chronos (and Alk) have been forced into fighting. Eventually, humanity's gonna say, "We're not gonna take it anymore." And when they do, then woe be to everyone... likely because the Creators may very well become the BBEG I referred to earlier and try to destroy Earth again, rather than let humanity go their own way. If that happens... well, Chronos and Alk are no longer threats (Chronos at least... who knows, Alk might just survive it) to the Creators, and neither is humanity: the Creators win by being the last ones standing.

Heh... I played with a similar theme long, long ago... back when I was playing various and sundry Transformer MUSHes. I'll use the giant robots from Cybertron as an example. *proceeds to hop up onto the soapbox* My view, so far as Transformers went, was that both sides were right, at least to a certain degree. The Autobots wanted peaceful contact with other species and cultures, in an attempt to show that they weren't afraid of another race like the Quintessons showing up and clapping the irons back on them as slavery. The Decepticons, on the other hand, were fearful enough of another invasion like the Quintessons that they decided that conquering other species and cultures was the only way to ensure peace (and, ironically enough, the Decepticons became the very thing they were trying to protect themselves from). As Megatron's quote from the G1 clip-file went: "Peace through tyranny." In essence, both sides wanted the same thing: peace on Cybertron and beyond. Their methods, however, were vastly different because of the varying ideologies upon which they founded their beliefs to achieve their goal. That clash of ideologies led to the Second (and later Third) Cybertronian Wars, and continued until after 2006, when Optimus was "resurrected" and the new Golden Age of Cybertron began (at the end of the Generation One series... I'm not about to mess with Beast Wars and other continuities). *hops off the soapbox* That sounds wildly off-topic, I know, but the previous example helps me illustrate my view: Alk isn't the BBEG, at least not to me. Let's face facts: Alk saved the Earth from the Creators, and basically crippled himself in the process. The problem, however, lies in that Alk's actions since waking up and establishing Chronos have stemmed from his belief (however erroneous it might be) that the Creators were evil and should be stopped, simply because they panicked over the first bio-boosted human and their war-like potential. That's fine... but again, his actions have shown that he's just as willing to use humanity as a tool (in this case, to create his own Zoanoid and Zoalord army) to take the fight to the Creators, as the Creators themselves were willing to do the same in modeling humanity into the basis for their armies. Actions aside, there's Alkanphel's beliefs to consider: He felt betrayed by the Creators for leaving. Worse, he felt the burden of responsibility when he discovered the Creators had left a parting gift in the asteroid/comet/whatever that they flung at Earth to annihilate all life. Can anyone, therefore, be so quick to judge Alkanphel because his methods mimic the Creators: strip humanity of their free will? The Guyvers, as I've seen it, have fought for humanity's freedom from Alkanphel's tyranny. Yet, ironically, as Sith Guyver said: Why? Because the Guyvers are fighting their war for them. Despite the fact that the Creators have superior numbers, they're letting humanity (in the Guyvers) do their dirty work for them and fight a different kind of war than the one Alkanphel wants to fight: the war of attrition. My total view: both sides are right... and wrong. But Alk isn't the BBEG... he is, however, a good lead-in for whoever the BBEG might be, in my opinion.

In short, you mean the way they showed Matt Murdock "seeing" in Daredevil? Admittedly, that sounds like an interesting premise, but I'm still not entirely convinced. I guess I'll stick with the "superior eyes" theory for the time being, although I still like my idea of them serving as motion detectors. But whatever floats your boat.

I agree with the sonic absorption for the sensor orbs, but I'm not sure about actually emitting sonics... I mean, wouldn't that conflict with the sonic emitters on the mouth, or could it be that it's some sort of redundant backup?

Given what very little I've seen (which, alas, is just the live-action movies, since I've not found any place locally where I can nab the anime DVDs as of yet), I've always likened the sensor orbs to hyper-sensitive motion detectors. I figure they serve not only as the proverbial eyes in the back of your head, but also heightened hearing and such... after all, the Unit G is supposed to boost the host's natural abilities, the five senses included.

Slightly off-topic, but still within the purview of the topic itself... Does Aptom truly evolve by absorbing the genetic structure of Zoanoids to make himself more powerful, or is he just an example of an extreme form of adaptation? Back on topic... Whatever the answer to the previous question may be, would a Guyver unit that had the same genetic absorption special ability that Aptom possesses prove itself to actually be capable of evolution, or would it still fall under the latter definition of extreme adaptation?

Wish I could. Would get it if I could. Finances, alas, don't currently allow for it. Hence, why I was asking my questions. It's a given that the movie didn't accurately portray the true capabilities of even a standard Guyver unit... pity.

So, in effect, the hyper sensors only act to enhance the senses that would otherwise remain intact after the bonding of a host and a unit (touch, sight, hearing)? I'm assuming that smell and taste don't exactly qualify, although I may be wrong. I'm wondering now myself... having seen only the live-action films, the hyper sensors seem to serve only as highly sensitive motion detectors, if that, from what I've seen in action. My assumption was that it expanded the host's senses (when active) beyond what humans normally perceive (certain decibels/wavelengths of sound and visible light, for example), but it seems perhaps I was wrong. Someone care to correct me on my misunderstanding?

I just finished reading "Meeting of the Warriors", mostly to keep myself up on the WG universe and various character interactions for my own attempts at fanfic. However, while I was reading it, I found something that piqued my interest. Greg mentions to Jason that the W'Kar CM can pick up a lot of things from scanning another Guyver's CM. Granted, I've looked over W'Kar's datafile, but the definition for it under the Hypersenses entry seems a bit short. So, my question: what exactly is W'Kar's CM capable of scanning in other Guyver units, and just how detailed an analysis does the CM give Greg?