Boost Organisms Armour state and interaction with Humans

[Aether]

forgive the long post but ...

While rereading the first chapter ( http://www.japan-leg...5036#entry75036) heres something ive only just kind of noticed, or maybe not thought about that much before, or have just plain forgotten becaue its been so long....

When the Guyver organism first interacts with Sho it ejects from the casing and is 100% tendrills and the Control Metal, then some parts of it solidify and then the 'armour' is formed...

this makes me think that all the armour is just solidified organism, erm... like if our skin was the tendrils and the soles of our feet were the armour i.e same substance just harder.

For some reason i had always thought that the armour and tendrils were seperate bits of the same thing like a snail and its shell. i think this is because of what the unit - G looks like when it is in its original state - however in oav 2 we see the casing disintergrate altogether and again its is just tendrills that end up forming into the armour parts..

its never really made 100% sense to me, apart from artistic license, as to why Takaya draws the armour appearing seemingly by itself sometimes rather than the armour and all the tendrils. sometimes they seem like seperate entities almost, sometimes theres only a suggestion of them., maybe he just can not be bothered to draw them??

this made me question if Takaya had kind of contradicted himself in the way that the armour is already formed before the tendrils have touched sho. i mean if the armour effectively becomes Sho's skin how can it form before its on him - how does it fuse with him??...so...

even though it might be obvious ive never seen anyone articulate it this way i dont think, and if they have and this is old and obvious i apologise but lets go over it anyway!!...

i think now that each part of armour has tendrils that live inside and are attached to that bit of armour and just extend outwards, so really Sho is covered by a complex of guyver organism ''squids''/ ''Snails'' (?) , that then manipulate his cells,and his organs and skeleton once landing on him from the boost dimension.

which makes me think that the tendrils go 'inside' of show every time he biosboosts... and by this im thinking that the Tendrils grow to miniscule tendrils the same as ganglions or neurons that are part of a nervous system or brain.

so they would penetrate the skin pours and grow smaller and smaller until it has a system that interacts with each cell down to the mesenger RNA telling his DNA how to restructure his body to accomodate / become the Guyver ....

what do you reckon???

Edited August 22, 2012 by Aether

[Aether]

so obsessed i drew pictures!!

[*Jess♥]

it's interesting thoughts...

but i personally don't believe it is efficient enough.

I first consider the lesions on shou's back.

the unit leaves shou in an altered state. he appears fully and properly human and his genetics are probably the same as ever, but there is a presence of the guyver in and on him.

it makes perfect sense to me that the guyver can leave remnants within each cell that can take over the process of the cell nucleus at any point.

after all, it seems to me that bio-boosting would take too long otherwise. just like the first time.

I like your comparison between guyver and snails.

but i think it's more like the skin analogy. because shou must have an effective sense of touch.

think of it like a hippo. their skin is almost impossible to pierce.

I think the armour comes in like it does because it is such a strong and complex structure that it is the most efficient method. the tendrils that seem to come out of the armour, could well be a simple way to bind the armour and easily fuse with the host body.

here's something interesting... have we ever seen shou injured in a section between armour?

it must be flexible so it must not be as hard...

[Aether]

oh well i dont think anything will ever be efficent enough until Takaya finishes the story then hits us off with an encyclopedic volume of 'how the world of Guyver works' !! (here's hoping!)

yeah i kind of have disregarded some of the stuff discussed before, like the idea of a bioboost mitochondria ( for the end theory of mine from that discussion look at my last post here... IF you like )

i think maybe i got carried away with the initial boosting rather than post 1st boost boosting!

i was more interested in the hardening/ hardness of the boost organism really and then i went on a tangent with it attaching to and infiltrating the body.

I like your comparison between guyver and snails.

but i think it's more like the skin analogy. because shou must have an effective sense of touch.

think of it like a hippo. their skin is almost impossible to pierce.

....

here's something interesting... have we ever seen shou injured in a section between armour?

it must be flexible so it must not be as hard...

I do like the hippo analogy, as they must have some softer spots somewhere but it will still be there 'skin'.

you would think that the tendrils would be an obvious target but they must have some kind of resistive strength?

the last chopping off of limbs was in book 28 and it was clean slices through G3's armour and tendrils....

thinking about it not a lot of Tendril is exposed anyway, only the inner thighs, some of the abdomen and biceps are really exposed. apart from the parts on the head and neck/shoulder area the other places are natural joint articulation places so cant be as protected anyway.... followiing the human structure the way it has has got to be the boost organisms most efficent 'shell' to protect itself (and the host).

Edited August 23, 2012 by Aether

[*Jess♥]

wow, yeah that discussion was a long time ago!

I only remember the main concept that I was playing with and forgotten that you were also discussing a similar idea.

[*YoungGuyver]

I think Takaya designed it so that the tendrils are in the lace up places on Samurai armor.

I like to think of it as a pearl. An oyster can secrete calcium in order to generate a pearl. The armor has shown the ability to regenerate itself from seemingly nothing, which suggests the ability to generate any kind of matter on demand, as well as structure it accordingly. I think it may just need a basic blueprint for the matter, which is why the guyver and the parasite base themselves on the host.

I agree with Ryuki that the unit leaves traces of the armor within the host, but I don't think there are samples within each cell. The nucleus acts as a blueprint center for the cell, but the cell receives other instructions from hormones through the blood. The armor doesn't have to be inside each cell in order to control it, it just has to transmit hormone signals through the host's blood.

Oh, and those metal plates on the unit-g, the visual data files book (written by Takaya) explained that they keep the organism in stasis. The exact translation was 'frozen time'. Since we have seen growth at incredible rates, and appear to have a stasis field generator, I suspect that the armor has traces that can accelerate the speed of molecular interaction (kind of like a reverse stasis field generator). I see no need to invade the host's cells, aside from an initial DNA collection, if that.

But back to one of the very first questions in this thread, what is the difference between the tendrils and the main armor?

In the unit-g, I don't think there is one. I think it might as well be viewed as gelatin, where the outer perimeter is stretching out to try and grab a victim. Only as an armor does it excrete materials and modify itself to form harder plates.

Please bear in mind the word 'theory' here. This is based on what we've seen, but with liberal amounts of speculation as well

[Aether]

well, like i said unless Takaya really does do some kind of 'science of Guyver' book to tell us how HE thinks of the workings of Guyver its all theory i suppose but some makes more sense than others...

Oh, and those metal plates on the unit-g, the visual data files book (written by Takaya) explained that they keep the organism in stasis. The exact translation was 'frozen time'.

nice one. but it doesnt explain if the advents/creators put that casing on or if it is part of the organism itself? the casing seemingly just dissapears once the unit is activated... i wonder if the unit remover has anything to do with putting the case on the unit??

I agree with Ryuki that the unit leaves traces of the armor within the host, but I don't think there are samples within each cell. The nucleus acts as a blueprint center for the cell, but the cell receives other instructions from hormones through the blood. The armor doesn't have to be inside each cell in order to control it, it just has to transmit hormone signals through the host's blood.

Thats a great observation about the hormones dude.... if that is correct then that kind of changes everything...

it would mean that the organism is probably linked into the endocrine system, of which the pituitary, and pineal gland are part of and churn out a lot of important hormones- so this gives another function of the control metal more clarity as it is clearly linked to portions of the brain.

another unfounded possibility could be that aswell as being used for telepathy and signalling the unit from the boost dimension, the growths on the host's back could be some kind of extra hormone gland? who knows!?

[*Jess♥]

hormones could work very well as a chemical messenger.

do hormones actually change the functions of cells though?

I was under the impression that when cells replicate or die or change function, it is due to RNA.

I don't see any way the cells of the host could change into the upgraded organs of the guyver, without having RNA somehow involved.

[Aether]

I don't see any way the cells of the host could change into the upgraded organs of the guyver, without having RNA somehow involved.

well maybe this is some kind of chicken and egg conundrum because i dont think that the hormones can be made without the necessary information from DNA and that needs the mRNA...

a quick wiki and this statement form 'peptide hormones' kind of sums it up:

''Like other proteins, peptide hormones are synthesized in cells from amino acids according to an mRNA template, which is itself synthesized from a DNA template inside the cell nucleus''

the process maybe hormonal but the actual mRNA must have some change to it by the organism in the first place or during a boost ,for the signals to the DNA to change the hormones to tell them what to tell other places in the body to do.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Aether

[*YoungGuyver]

The Metal Plates:

The Control Metal is attached to the parasite, forcing it to act in certain ways. I suspect the Control Metal forced the parasite to excrete the correct materials in such a fashion as to generate a shell with the stasis field generation property. Weather of not the data for the construction of the shell is in the Control Metal or the Unit Remover, I don't know; nor do I see any way of telling for sure, so it would be a mute point for me to guess at this time unless we have miraculous new info coming out (such as a host dieing off and the unit returning to Unit-G state). In one animation though, when activated the shell plating popped off and then evaporated.

As for the host's organs being boosted, Takaya said most of them are 'digressed' as they become essentially useless. The brain/nervous system is mostly untouched, but the muscle and bone is increased. A simple hormone signal to increase cellular division, augmented by a temporal field to increase the division rate might explain most of this. The eyes are seemingly replaced-my books are in storage at the moment but I would like to check the clone monster eyes to see if they have pupils, or are they the same as the boost armor. I would assume they are, which would suggest it is 'improved' by moving the retina to the exterior. The Guyver eyes also emit light to aid in vision, I'm unsure about the clone monster.

Other organs just don't have a direct human counterpart to base themselves off of, even though they fit perfect for the part of the host's body in which they are placed (momentum amplifiers on the forearms and lower legs). Devices such as the head beam and sonic orbs could easily be exuded material, in much the same way that a Oyster generates a pearl (I think other materials are exuded by the parasite, but are used by the host and such for cellular construction).

What really has be intrigued are momentum amps, gravity gyros, and gravity focusers (pressure canon wrist pads)- these seem to be cellular tissue, with no human counterpart on any level. The two possibilities I see are that the Control Metal is providing detailed genetic information for the construction of these from the ground up, or that they are based on the natural biology of the parasite, and the Control Metal is providing instructions to make a more perfect parasite. This second possibility seems more likely to me, as I suspect that i it's natural state the parasite is transdimensional to a limited degree. The Sho Clone did -generate- matter for the purpose of constructing a body. This is an idea that fascinates me. A creature with 'organs' for gravitational related abilities. This is why I think that originally the parasite may have come from a star system that include a black hole. This seems to be a creature based so much on gravitational forces.

[*Jess♥]

I'm pretty sure it was stated that the entire circulatory system was upgraded or replaced.

but I'm really confused as to where this has come from dude?

we weren't talking about any of those things.

your post seems out of place.

weren't we talking about how the armour relates to the tendrils? and how that attaches and fuses with the host body?

then we had a tangent where hormones were suggested as a medium for changing the hosts body when the armour attaches...

I'm thinking your post belongs in it's own thread. or maybe it is misplaced by mistake. perhaps you drafted it separately and posted in the wrong thread?

[*YoungGuyver]

Sorry,

got a bit carried away.

You were suggesting the tendrils going in to manipulate, and pieces of the armor inside each cell, so I was saying how that might not be necessary to that degree and was trying to explain.

By the host's circulatory system, you mean beefing up the muscles in the heart, and possibly strengthening the blood vessels to withstand extra pressure?

[*Jess♥]

I don't know, I was just vaguely remembering what we wrote in the VDF. can't remember the words and can't remember the translation. (i'd love to scrutinise the original japanese scans again, are they available anywhere?)

just checking quickly now, it says the heart is strengthened. ah well, it's not super important, is it? not sure. tired.

anyway, it crossed my mind, you said something about armour inside the cells. maybe i miscommunicated my thoughts. I'm not for a moment imagining the armour inside the human cells. the armour comes through from the void space. that much is clear. what i am thinking is that the presence of special DNA code or perhaps another nucleic acid capable of producing RNA or whatever.. this would be advantageous to switch the function of existing cells when the guyver is called. (maybe TNA :- trioxyribonucleic acid)

I don't know about you, but I doubt the increase of the number of cells within a normal humans muscle, would increase strength to the degree that we see in guyver. I don't know what my knowledge of biology is like compared to yours, but I don't even think a gorilla has that level of strength. I'm pretty sure the guyver must have some exotic type of muscle cells and fibres, perhaps made of exotic compounds.

in this respect I guess what i could be suggesting is that the host is now a similar state to that of a zoalord, but without the ability to power up on their own, because they don't have the energy source until it breaches the dimensional wall.

[Johnleprekan]

Excuse me, sorry for asking. What is a temporal field generally made of and how might one work?

[*Jess♥]

Excuse me, sorry for asking. What is a temporal field generally made of and how might one work?

I don't really agree with the inclusion of temporal field into guyver science, but i can make a suggestions as to how this might work if I may.

my understanding of what einstein has said about the speed of light includes a change in the flow of time for objects approaching the speed of light. they also become more massive. there is a possibility that increasing the mass of the organism through use of gravity as the guyver can do so, may have some relationship with the flow of time. this is mere musing though and I personally feel it is way too complicated to try and make it work.

I'd really love to see the original japanese paragraph for the part that states 'frozen time'.

[Johnleprekan]

Thank you.

[*YoungGuyver]

technically all objects experience time dilation at all speeds. The effect is just so small on the human scale we don't notice it. It is indeed a function of mass, but I don't think the unit-G's stasis field is using traditional time dilation. In order to reach a frozen state, you would probably be experiencing black hole level mass. Perhaps the unit-G shell is creating a dimensional shadow so that it both experiences the mass, and does not. I would have no idea how to do that exactly, but it sounds exotic enough to be scifi. So its the best answer I can give for the moment.