Naruto

[durendal]

Seeing how popular Naruto is, it would be dumb if Viz doesn't release any other related merchandise of the franchise. And here I thought capitalism is very good at milking off trending stuff dry. Well, I have always been disappointed with the business decisions of viz or any other company of it's kind.

[Aether]

well, yeah thats why i found it so frustrating in the first place!

hm, i just had a bit of a bad thought on it because dont viz use stupid names for the jutsus in their translation??

i know for 'kage Bunshin no Jutsu' they've used 'Art of the Shadow Doppleganger' which is a complete joke, not sure about other jutsus or if they've changed it because it sucked so much, ... oh well, i'll just have to wait and see how bad it is.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Aether

[*Jess♥]

sorry to tell you this but that is actually a quite literal translation of kage bunshin no jutsu.

I suppose clone might be easier to slide off the tongue but i do think doppelgänger may be more accurate.

(since clone is biological and doppelganger is supernatural)

[durendal]

Bunshin is quite difficult to translate, actually. It literally means splitting the body, and I have heard other translators using "After Image" or "Splitting Image", since "bunshin" is mostly used as a technique to evade. And if Viz kept the "Kage Bunshin no Jitsu", then they aren't doing their job properly. I know what "Kage Bunshin no Jutsu" literally means, but do you think millions of English speakers who doesn't know squat about Japanese do? But if you see it in another perspective, "Art of Shadow Doppelganger" is quite close to it. But if it were me, instead of using "Art", I would prefer to use the word "Technique". My complaints about those company is usually the liberties they take into the dialogue that is completely different from the original. Tokyopop and their Battle Royale is a prime example in which they completely changed the dialogue in the ending.

[Aether]

well if i were in charge of translations at Viz then i would have kept the original japanese names in the text and just given an asterisk with the english translation... or have the english name of a technique but still keep jutsu and have it known from the beginning that justsu is technique.

and when it comes to japanese english translations i know nothing, so obviously you two are better to know for literal translations - however i dont think literal is always better when it comes to sounding cool!!

i think the english anime version (not that i watch it) of Shadow Clone jutsu / technique sounds 'cooler' than their manga effort.

for arguements sake, i reckon that clone would be acceptable if chakra were used as a prefix so 'chakra clone jutsu' gets a little vote from me, seeing as they are made of evenly distributed chakra from the original shinobi.

as semantically accurate as it may be, doppleganger just sounds naff. i think its because its german, i hated doing german at school. Perhaps if they had not used 'Art of the Shadow Doppleganger' and gone for 'doppleganger technique' or 'doppleganger jutsu' it wouldnt have been so bad.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Aether

[*Jess♥]

yeah technique would be so much better, but in terms of page space, japanese has quite the advantage.

shadow clone technique would surely be the best choice IMO but well translation is largely about personal choice and intuition.

it's also about how the target audience is likely to receive it.

for naruto in the west i think it is largely 8-16 as an estimate.

[*V Guyver]

Hmm, Obito. I really don't see him as Tobi. I think the name was chosen on purpose to throw fans off. Izuna Uchiha is the likely culprit. I can imagine him as the only one loyal enough for his brother, and the fact that Tobi talked about him so much and defended Madara's actions in taking his eyes, stating that Izuna gave them willingly is of interest. Meanwhile in the rest of the manga, there is NO mention of Izuna other then as a fleeting name. Obito was confirmed killed and was too young to know Madara, but Izuna has the connections to all the big players before Kakashi and Naruto's generations of Shinobi, and no one mentioned him dead... other then Tobi.

For someone so evil as Tobi, it makes you wonder just who would be so recklessly and unselfishly loyal to an equally even man like Madara Uchiha. It's been in my mind since I heard the name, but Tobi not being Madara has convinced me.

[*Jess♥]

I don't fully follow everything you are saying since I have not delved so carefully into the character histories etc and i am forgetful, but I don't currently view izuna as being significant enough to be Tobi.

I mean, Obito was pretty significant, being the person who gave kakashi his eye.

right from the start, kakashi was a pivotal person in narutos life and also sasuke and sakura, also, the presence of his sharingan was something very special right from the start. the relationship between kakashi and obito seems very fitting in that way and that is why i think it would be very suitable for tobi to be obito.

taking this into account, can you demonstrate how izuna would be equally significant? I mean characterwise. backstory-wise he is a major character, but when it comes to a strongly character driven manga, it seems like weak story telling.

[*V Guyver]

Well, let's look at Izuna's character, he and Madara were the two strongest Shinobi in the Uchiha clan in their time. He always followed and fought alongside Madara and when Madara began losing his eyesight, he gave Madara his own eyes. Tobi said he died fighting later despite blind. He and Madara had both unusually strong Chakra, were extremely skilled in the same arts, constantly competing with one another as brothers but fighting side by side as leaders of their clan. The chakra is an important clue too since Tobi attests to it having prolonged his life.

Madara, as you can see had set out his "Moon's Eye" plan out since before he fought the first Hokage. He fought knowing he would die with the sole goal to gain the Hokage's DNA, and expected to have someone he ordered at that time to resurrect him. No one was following him at that time since he was driven out of Uchiha, leaf, and even Hidden Mist... that leaves Izuna, the only unconfirmed death, and don't believe Tobi's claim of him being dead. So it interests me that Madara died in that battle, who could be alive at that point to continue his plans and will? None other then the one person who's been his greatest ally in his entire career, Izuna, a person who's fate we are unaware of other then what Tobi has told Susuke. Only one other character Mentioned Izuna, and that was Itachi, the one person who knew Tobi better then anyone. Doesn't it make sense that someone who knew all of Madara's techniques, so close to Madara, in blood and friendship, mysterious, forgotten, and so willing and loyal to Madara, would be the culprit?

In terms of Logic, and not just speculation, Izuna seems to be the most fitting character to be Tobi, and from a writers standpoint, an awesome twist. The author has really gone out of his way to throw fans off by having everyone had some resemblance to Tobi by name or appearance, and I can't think of a better way to do so then a character no one mentions or remembers other then Tobi. Tobi like I said seemed protective of Madara, and he quickly made sure to tell Susuke that Izuna willingly gave up the eyes and that they weren't forcefully plucked away like Itachi stated when talking about Izuna

How could Obito be the one, unless Resurrected? Who would Obito know so many of the real Madara's techniques? Doesn't it make more sense thatIzuna,a person who fought alongside Madara would know them instead? Remember, Izuna trained with his brother, Obito never had that chance? From Obito's point of view, we saw him die or buried in that last page, while already on the verge of death. Also, he was born way before Madara made his plans which were decades before Obito's birth.

If Obito was Tobi, he would had to of been Resurrected under some jutsu and convinced/forced to serve (Which I can't imagine him doing so) Madara... who was still dead at this point I think (though Madara had been revived at least once before from what read). Of course he could be a decedent of a Uchiha who follows Madara, but that's a bit complicated. I think Obito's name was meant to be an opposite mirror, showing contrast of personality between a good Uchiha and a bad one, while also serving as a character to throw off fans into ruckus trying to figure out Tobi's identity. Also, you can tell Tobi has been active for many years, Obito was just a kid when he died, there is just enough of a time frame for Obito to of possibly been resurrected, grow up and take over the Hidden Mist from the shadows, but from my point of view, Obito never seemed the type, never had the skill to pull that off, and him being resurrected seems... convoluted. Izuna on the other hand would of had ample time and training to pull that off with ease. Plus Obito was never mentioned to have thesamedegree of chakra as Madara or Izuna.

You can take a look at Izuna's wiki. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Izuna#cite_ref-d3_0-1

I started reading it, and it still fits. Also, I would disregard the coffin, as that was a narrative image, not an actual thing. You can reread the part in the manga when Tobi speaks about Izuna, note that Tobi is insistent that Izuna gave up his eyes willingly. Why would he even make a note of that. I think that story Itachi told Susuke was meant as a hint to reveal Tobi as Izuna. Also note the parallels to Madara and Izuna, to Itachi and Susuke. Why else would Tobi be so obsessed with Susuke despite his hatred of his own clan? Does he see a younger self in Susuke?

[*Jess♥]

I see the parallels you are drawing, and I understand the logic.

it does make a lot of sense.

I guess I felt so underwhelmed when madara was revealed. I felt that we had not had a decent introduction to him, like no backstory or character relevance. there is a definite historic reference, but not enough to really tie in with the story.

plus it doesn't really make sense to me that he would feel the need to wear a mask.

not to mention izuna gave up both his eyes. obito gave up one, and that is the side that was covered with his first mask.

I think when madara was introduced into the fray of things, I felt underwhelmed because the character had no personal relationship with him. there was no drama or feeling. this seems very un-naruto.

if it were to be obito, there are surely gaps. but I also feel that there are gaps elsewhere.

I felt it was very wrong for orochimaru to be out of it so early for example.

but if you think along those lines, didn't orochimaru have the desire to learn every jutsu in existence? if this were somehow a result of obito and orochimaru, it is feasible for him to know such jutsu's as only madara knew.

also, didn't tobi use impure world resurrection to revive the jinchuuriki's? that wasn't kabuto was it?

I just get the feeling that .. when tobi finally removes his mask.. assuming he does, I think like he says " behold, I am truly... IZUNA" I think the characters would be like "O RLY? me no care... OH WELLS, let's fight then." *sigh*

but on the other hand if he says "behold, I am truly... OBITO" then kakashi would jump in and be like "OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. WHAT WHAT, LYK OMG, U IS DED!!! HOW? HOW? HOW? HOW?" cue angst and flashbacks.

[durendal]

If Tobi is Obito, then he would have made some sort of familiarity remark when Kakashi appeared. No such dialogue I remember. And also, it is highly unlikely that Tobi is Obito, but how are we sure that it isn't the body of Obito. Remember Orochimaru mastered the transfer of his consciousness to other bodies, who is to say that Tobi didn't know the same technique? It could be Izuna who took possession of Obito's body. Besides, wouldn't Izuna be really old, hence the need for a younger body? At this point, we really don't know, and I'm guessing even Mr. Kishimoto doesn't know yet.

[*V Guyver]

I have to agree with both of you on that, having no history with any other character in the fore front makes it sorta a weak plot twist, but then you look at Danzo and realize we didn't really give a crap about him until he started to die and showed us his back story. Heck even the shark man didn't get much a back plot until he started to apparently die, and then again later when he actually died we learned what kind of man he was at heart. If my theory is proven true, then we could expect a similar treatment.

As for the jutsu of impure Resurrection, it was originally created by the first Hokage (ironic since it got used on him), then forbidden to be taught. Orochimaru had to figure it out. Now how he came about the soul transfer, I don't know, but it could be an original technique, or possibly taught by Madara... but I doubt that since Orochimaru didn't seem to know anything about him. But of course, none of this is certain, we are still missing to many key pieces.

One thing I will say about Obito, his left eye was crushed and Kakashi had the other, and he was a fairly inexperienced Uchiha. I can imagine Madara going after more suitable Uchiha hosts should he wanted a body transfer.

Also Madara has been revived at least once before he was revived again by impure world resurrection... that got me thinking. What if Izuna had really died, but was later revived by that same mysterious method, that could explain his lack of impediment from aging. But considering Danzo looked pretty damn young for his age. I'm willing to think that he never died to begin with. We'll see how things turn out, gotta give it to the mangaka, he knows how to make us think and dig mystery.

Edit: I recalled how the similarities between the current Uchiha Brothers and the previous pair. Coincidence?

Edited January 23, 2012 by V Guyver

[*Jess♥]

I gotta be honest, talking with you guys makes it better for me.

because i had totally forgotten abuot who Izuna even was, but now I know so much more about him. if it does turn out to be him, I won't be so underwhelmed as I would have been.

[durendal]

So don't tell me that Naruto is going to be the successor of the Sage of the Six Paths?

[*Jess♥]

it's not like it hasn't already been suggested enough

I like the way this is going. the author just has this great knack of making everything so cool.

[*V Guyver]

So don't tell me that Naruto is going to be the successor of the Sage of the Six Paths?

Darn, I was hoping the plot wouldn't go in this direction, though the part with Sasuke and Tobi is pretty good because they went an entire direction with those two than I predicted. Naruto's been down pretty much the path I predicted. The cool thing is that Naruto can remember names... well when he tries at least. It's still great, it's pretty suspenseful. Ryuiki was right about the whole thing with the sage and Naruto, but I really wish it went in another direction, it's a plot arc I was hoping wouldn't be used, not just because of a couple of cliche's, but because I don't want Naruto as a series to end if it progresses too far.

[*Jess♥]

looks like fillers stopped and then started again.

episodes 243-256 are proper story line,

obtaining them now.

should be interesting for a while.

can't even remember what happened last though.

[*Jess♥]

been watching. now got some thoughts.

I am becoming convinced that kabuto is an uzumaki.

I am also wondering if tobi is an uzumaki.

well aside from those thoughts, I thought of some other things.

tobi isn't necessarily an uchiha. let's consider kakashi. if kakashi can have a sharingan, then other non uchiha can also have sharingan.

also, tobi clearly has a body that is malleable. in his fight with minato, his arm comes off. i'm pretty sure we see him with an arm later.

so this body may not be his original body. sort of like orochimaru.

another thing, tobi can enter konoha and bypass the barrier. he is not madara so he is somebody else closely related to konoha.

these are my thoughts for the moment.

[*V Guyver]

Uchiha's were part of Konoha too, in fact the original Uchiha brother's helped to create that village, the fact an Uchiha secret meeting place is in Konoha would suggest it's him (and he knew about it). Tobi's abilities also seem to be connected to his Sharingan, he uses them extensively and most people can't do so unless they are an Uchiha, or someone with a modified body. I still feel he may be an Uchiha based on this and more.

Also it should be noted, guys like Kakashi and even Denzo had a hard time using their second hand Sharingan. Kakashi has a limited use and a huge chakra drain, and Denzo tried to by[ass this problem with his modified body, but was limited as well since despite having a huge chakra reserve, his use of the Sharingan's just drained him of that fight with Susuke which only lasted a few minutes, in comparison Sasuke outlasted him despite having less chakra reserves.

[*Jess♥]

this is true, but what i am also driving at, is what i have noticed watching this recent release of main story anime.

what they have alluded to is that the uzumaki clan have special chakra, usually showing to have higher reserves of chakra than anyone else, also a great ability to withstand injury and heal quickly, and lastly they are noted to have very long lives.

i think these factors could lend credibility to if tobi were a uzumaki.

of course his hair colour is wrong to be an uzumaki from what we have seen.

on the other hand, kabuto's hair colour is perfect for an uzumaki.

[*V Guyver]

Well Kabuto is using Sage mode, and considering his storyline, he may very well be survivor of the Uzumaki clan since their village was wiped out just before Naruto was born.

Also you do have a point, Tobi stated Madara having very potent Chakra too, it's plausible his brother had the same factor. Since Tobi referred to himself having that quality, I'm inclined to think that this is the case. There haven't been any other Uzumaki's mentioned in the series either, only Uchia, so there are more clue's pointing towards Uchiha then Uzumaki. Still, I'll keep an eye out for that theory, it's an interesting one for sure.

[*Jess♥]

it's fairly weak and really only hobbled together as i've been watching bits and pieces.

i just found it really intriguing to think along these lines after being reminded about the uzumaki.

I thought about some more things.

we know that madara had unlocked the rinnegan, and we also know that tobi gave the rinnegan to nagato

so what about if nagato's rinnegan came from madara?

well we know that tobi is not madara anyhow...

so it's not exactly difficult to imagine this being the case.

what i do find interesting here is that tobi did not activate or attain the rinnegan himself. he implanted the eye into himself.

this suggests that he was not capable of developing this?

that suggests to me that he does not naturally have this power.

it may be a long shot but that is what is making sense to me at the moment.

also, he wears a bandage over his face under the mask. just like danzo did and like kakashi does.

true, he has one sharingan active all the time, that is very difficult to do. even for an uchiha.

what would allow him to do so?

I'm thinking massive amounts of chakra and incredible regenerative ability. talking of which, he has lost limbs on countless occasions and seem to have recovered very well.

[*V Guyver]

That also makes a good point. Hmm, I thought at one point, a mix between the two clans, just like Naruto is from a branch of two different clan's descended from the same Son of the Sage of Six path's, but we haven't run into more info about that. We wont really know what is going on until Naruto starts to peal apart that damn body.

I will say this, he seems to recover his body through surgeries or jutsu, don't know hoe, but they is also a damn creepy scientist of sorts, remember that lab of his with eyes. Seems every major main villain is a genius scientist of sorts in naruto after the Zabuza arc.

[durendal]

Okay, this is going to be a possible major spoiler.

The theory about Tobi's connection to Obito is starting to be confirmed by the author. With the latest chapter, it is revealed that Tobi and Kakashi shares some connection to their Sharingan eyes, and especially when Tobi mentioned about the time when Kakashi got his Sharingan. This is giving me chills.

[*Jess♥]

heh heh, yeah I know.

well it's not only that.

the dialogue tobi uses is almost identical to what obito's inner monologue was like.

I read it again last night and was thinking that it could have been suggested that it was the guy they were fighting. but it couldn't be. there doesn't seem to be any link between his attitude.