What's wrong with today's Rider?

[durendal]

It's currently in our Masked Rider Ryuki wiki, which was derived from the Japanese wiki (Part of my PTW or Project Toku Wiki). In the Japanese wiki, the source of this information came from the October 17, 2002 edition of the Japan Economics Newspaper and the December 4, 2003 edition of Yomiuri Newspaper

[Tales]

Well wikipedia no matter what language can be a little bit false. But if it was copied from the Japanese newspaper then I think this should be the truth.

But then again now I look at the older riders I think I get the idea how do manly guys look at girly guys; with a bit of disgust. Ryuki looks a bit like the J-drama idols but I think he still is manly. Sorta like Spiderman with some internal angst going on.

and I do not need to elaborate on Ryotaros or Wataru.

[*Jess♥]

I got a reply from Lycanthrope.

I'm sorry by poor English.

I think that there are certainly a lot of fans elderly (It is in its forties before and behind one's thirties) in a Japanese society.

As for me, the mask rider is personally looking only at liked what. The mask rider thinks that there is "Solitary soldier who fights alone" image. Recently, it is too much a lot and doesn't understand well.

Because Den-o is not seen at all, it is not possible to say indescribably.

It did not see gradually after that though even kuuga and Agito were seen.

Because this saw the work in about the 90's at my age, a present mask rider thinks that there is a side that cannot become familiar.

Because commercial respect of Heisei-Kamen-rider is strong, I do not like it.

Also in Japan, such a topic is discussed on the net.

I thought a couple of parts are a little unclear so I asked him to write in japanese.

also, I asked him if he could provide a link of where japanese fans are discussing this.

[Tales]

Maybe he write in Japanese and then Durendal translate for us?

Sorry Durendal

[Toku Warrior]

That's be a good idea.

Also, I was rewatching some of the press conference that they had for KR Decade's promotion and I remeber one of the exec's saying that Ishimori-san once said that "Kamen Rider is a hero that changes with the era's, so it will never die." That being said it makes me think not so harshly on the Heisei Riders as they are Riders meant more for today's viewer than those of the our older generation.

By saying that none of the Riders of the Heisei era are strong like those of the Showa, calling them a bunch of girly men, it can be seen as a bit biased in ones view. Maybe the actors chosen now-a-days don't mind the roles as they watched the older shows when they were kids themselve.

It's the older actors that may not want to come onto the series because they might feel it's to low for their acting pool record, maybe they never liked the Rider series to begin with, or maybe something entirely different.

No offense Tales, but to say the Showa Riders are 'men' who look down upon the 'girly men' which are the Heisei Riders is, to me at least, slightly biased. It is your opinion which you are entitled to but putting it like that can be a little harsh.

Just because a series of a certain genre that you used to watch isn't like it used to be is not reason to say that the older heroes look down upon the newer ones. The series as a whole has just changed with the times to meet the newer audience's demands and taste in the type of hero. It could be said that the newer era of Rider is more like the Western version of a hero as American children like flashy things and most Japanese kids also seem to follow this slight trend.

The older Rider wasn't as nearly as flashy but it could be considered more 'kiddy' with some of its story lines yet so can the newer Rider with their power ups and special effects.

I mean no argument to start but this is something I just finally realized. Whether a Japanese person feels this way or views this topic in a totally different manner is just that, it's up to the person. You are right in that we definitely need more than just one Japanese person to reply to those questions so that we could have a more widened view on it.

[*Jess♥]

this is interesting actually..

in the past, in japanese society, the men were in a much more powerful role. it's almost like our western society, men used to be more macho, but these days, men are losing their masculinity.

in some ways this may be good or in some ways bad.

one thing i have noticed is... i have to be careful what i say... let us say that the women seem to be more submissive in some certain japanese media. i find it very degrading to see women behave/treated this way. i think that as time is going on, this is going to change too, but this is an area where it is more apparent to me.

the point is, the men are more powerful in this respect and that i think perhaps japan is going through hte same revolution that the west went through in terms of women becoming stronger and men becoming weaker in other areas such as kamen rider.

perhaps in time we will see the balance change and men will regain their masculinity in these roles.

[durendal]

I think I understand what Lycanthrope was trying to convey. The Showa Riders seem to have this "loner" aura in them when they battle the villains. Such "loner" characteristics makes the character look strong and confident, thus the "Manly Man" term being coined up. On the other hand, the Heisei Riders doesn't seem to be the "loner" type, being supported by comrades. Of course in the Showa Riders, there are still the support group, but that's all they are, support. Even the V3-Riderman relationship, even though Riderman was the sub-rider, he never got the chance to finish off a monster, and it was all V3 who did the dirty work. Considering that they gave Riderman the honorary title of the 4th Masked Rider. Comparing this to the Heisei Riders, the main rider no longer does all the dirty work. There are sometimes more than 1 rider, thus it would be much more difficult on the point of the scriptwriters to give development to all the riders. So instead of rooting for one single rider, fans are torn to choose among the several riders, thus creating a rift in the unity among fans.

[Tales]

Actually to me, some of the Heisei Riders' manliness do not come from the looks but from the heart. Kuuga, Agito, Faiz, Blade and Hibiki were some of the more manly Riders in the Heisei Era. Ryuki's manliness is more inclined to that of Peter Parker in my opinion, kinda having internal conflicts. Kabuto is where that man or Rider we used to knew began to disappear and Den-O and beyond is where the rift in the fans began to widen.

But anyway thanks for the opinions from this japanese fan, I think do tell him we need more opinions from his fellow fans if possible becos the overseas fans are really really fighting out loud in forums. And the rift is pretty serious I think.

[*Jess♥]

i understand this..

the riders are reflecting upon the youth rather than on the men.

do you think this is possibly a result of the changes in japanese culture though?

because i remember a episode in keitai sousakan 7 where keita's dad is complaining about politics and how japan is changing.

it may be difficult for us to judge since the majority of us are not within japanese society and do not know how it is behaving.

[Tales]

So that's why we need lycantrope's opinions if possible the opinions of his friends.

[durendal]

But remember, Lycanthrope also mentioned that such debates are also present. So asking for their opinion might just add more fuel to fire the discussion. They too have 2 sides of it.

The fact that riders are changing means it is growing. Also, I don't see the point on condemming the producers of what is happening to the franchise. For one thing, we watch them for enjoyment, not to start arguments. If I don't like the show, then I will just choose not to watch. There's really nothing I can do about it. I'm really sorry, but I'm slowly getting tired of this showa-Heisei debate. It is unfair to compare Heisei and Showa riders as they are not made for the same generation.

[Tales]

I'm really sorry, but I'm slowly getting tired of this showa-Heisei debate. It is unfair to compare Heisei and Showa riders as they are not made for the same generation.

Actually I find the Showa and Heisei debate a poor way to describe this debate. I still find that the Riders b4 Kabuto and Riders after Kabuto a better way to describe. Some even say before Hibiki.

Most of my friends agree that the Heisei riders before Kabuto or Den-O were at least some watchable as Spectre said. The story flows alright and is pretty more or less well written. The characters make you care for them as an audience. Sorta like you feel some like you want to see what Takumi is going to do next but when you ask them about Ryotaro's one feels the urge to slap him and tell him "GROW SOME BALLS DAMN IT!"

[Guest CompleteDeka]

so, does no-one think tsukasa can be quite manly at times? i certainly do, i can think of several occasions when he has manned up. attacked a monster without costume, taken a beating, and still fought on, etc. mostly insisted on fighting the lonely fight. well, tried to be a loner, but people seem to grow on him.

[Tales]

Yeah Tsukasa has matured which is a good thing too. This should seperate him from Wataru or Ryotaro. At least he didn't run away from his problems.

[Toku Warrior]

WARNING - THIS POST MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR PAST SERIES

Well Ryoutarou always had badluck so he never got into many long lasting friendships which means less room to grow (note that I'm going by character-wise and note by story written-wise). Even though it takes him literaly the whole series, he does indeed mature and even goes as far as to learn to fight on his own without Momo-tachi so as to protect them from fading away. This led to Momotarous showing him how to use a sword. Indeed, Kotarou, his grandson and the New Den-O, is more mature acting than he is but he hasn't gone through nearly as much as Ryoutarou has.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Den-O series but it's note in my fav 4 of Heisei Era series. Now for Kiva.

Wataru always lived a secluded life style which only gained him one friend in Shizuka. Later in the series though he does mature and does tend to try and fight without summoning the Kiva suit until he gets to a point he knows he'll need it. Adding Kengo, Megumi and Keisuke as his friends throughtout the series also helps him. Of course, nothing helps one mature like loosing a friend which is what happened when Kengo found out that Wataru lied to him.

The main drawback is that after Bishop made his dormant Fangire blood go wild, thus making Kiva Emperor go sadisitic on both Megumi and Keisuke, caused him to revert to his anti-social ways. Now he did get his maturity back once Otoya finally got through that thick head of his (yes, going back in time to erase yourself is a stupid thing to do and it slightly ruined Kiva's popularity). In the end of the series, more like the final 4 episodes, Wataru really shined as a Rider.

The thing is with both the series of Den-O and Kiva, the sub-Riders (IXA, Saga, Dark Kiva, Zeronos, Gaoh and New Den-O) were given the mature manly feeling from the get go but we got to see their softer sides as the series progressed (with the exception of Gaoh as he was just a straight out dick and killed anyone he wanted).

Now here's something else, the Heisei Riders tend to have one thing in common with the Showa Riders, half of them are actually from their enemy lines. The Showa Riders were all Cyborgs. Well most of the Heisei Rider were either monsters, evolved humans or ordinary humans.

Kuuga - Ordinary human who used the Arcle

Agito - Ordinary human who evolved into the next step of human evolution, Agito

Ryuki - Ordinary human that fought other worldly monsters that came from a girls imagination

Faiz - A monster that rebeled against his kind, being that they were humanities next evolutionary step, and fought to protect humanity

Blade - Ordianry human who, at the end, became the one thing he was fighting against to save his friend and humanity

Hibiki - a human who became an oni

Kabuto - A human with a scientific Rider system created by aliens

Den-O - a time traveling Rider who uses futuristic technology and his own special status as a singularity point to fight Imagine, using 5 to take on 5 laternate forms

Kiva - A human/fangire half-breed who fought both humans and fangires alike to save both

Decade - a human who uses the powers of the previous 9 to save both their worlds and his own

I've run out of time so can the admins check this post and make sure to fix it as I'm getting kicked off the computer again for the rest of the day.

[Tales]

Well but I still think Wataru is the biggest coward. Becos none of the 9 Riders despite loss of a character they cared about, went back in time to change things. Not even Ryotaros even though he had the proper equipment had tempted to go back in time and change things. Other took it as a normal person would.

Time space equilibrium stuff is a whole other subject but even though most of us do not understand it but common sense will tell you that changing the past can alter the present in ways that you cannot predict.

Example: If I go back in time and kill like say some dictator.etc like say Myanmar's leaders before they could be born. And I come back to the present, the outcome would be like branches of a mind map or the evolutionary paths of a lifeform. Most likely the outcome either is good, similar or worse. Maybe Aung Sang Suki's party won and Myanmar becomes a republic.etc etc. Or maybe even opposite, Aung Sang Suki gets assasinated and then Myanmar is plunged into civil war. Or it could be just as worse as today but except the current leaders of today would not be playing the roles they are playing now.

So one has to take time issue very seriously.

In other words, Wataru takes time travelling too lightly. Shows how immature and foolish and in a way cowardly he was as a person. A person in real life would cry and whine or break down for a while. If the person strong however, he/she will eventually stop whining and move on.

[*Jess♥]

but think about it, wataru is a representation of a real person. perhaps a represetation of what a lot of the target audience could be.

sometimes the heroism of past riders could be considered unrealistic.. and people can't relate to it.

but wataru not being able to cope with the loss of this person, i would say is showing a bit of reality as opposed to a altruistic and yet fake character.

would you agree?

along with a lot of tv nowadays, it's no longer about fantasy and escapism, it's also about combatting everyday issues and to help the viewer view their own life in a different perspective. so they simply can't make the tv like they used to. people wouldn't watch it.

wataru was a very interesting character IMO. he wasn't 2 dimensional, he actually had depth and wasn't totally predictable.

not like 2 dimensional fake characters like tsukasa and tendou.

whilst entertaining, they just aren't believeable.

that's why in kabuto, I think the main protagonist was actually kagami, and in DCD I think the main protagonist is actually yuusuke.

even in masked rider kiva, you have some questioning over who is actually the main character.

all the characters are pretty interesting, you even have your masculine character taking up a very dominant role in Jirou.

[durendal]

I have no beef with the other heisei riders as I have only seen a selected few. My beef with Kiva is the under development of their characters and how elastic their personality can become when subject to extreme emotional difficulty. I would understand it when they snap, but the way they presented it is somewhat distorted. An example is Kengo, on minute he's a happy go lucky guy and the next he's a stiff jerkass of a friend. Wataru's personality in the first episode was already exaggerated to begin with. And the only word that I can describe him is Timid, all throughout the series. Starting off from Super timid, to semi-timid at the end of the series.

Now Jirou, he's one of the characters I like. I could say that he is probably one of the most stable characters in the show along with the other arms monster. Otoya too. I find it hard to believe that Wataru is related to Otoya. If I were Otoya, I would disown Wataru. (but then again, Otoya wasn't exactly there to see Wataru grow up, so I guess that's excusable)

Opinions stated above are purely my own and is no way connected to any staff or members of Japan Legend.

Edited August 26, 2009 by durendal

[Tales]

Unrealistic but they at least are role models all of us including kids can look up to. It's like some people with religion look up to their gods who are in a point of view "unrealistic" as so to speak.Wataru is not the best role model to look up to. I have heard from JHA that the Japanese look at otakus aka recluse just the same attitude as we normal social people would see a person with leprosy as so to speak. So is the show going to tell the audience that being an otaku with no social skills or being a tortoise is alright? So if the show are reflecting on real people, are they trying to tellus that Japanese people are recluse, shy people who refuse to face reality? It reflects kinda badly on them.

Sorry Ryuki this is just my thoughts. When I was much younger, I was pretty much born a otaku with bad social skills and becos I suck so badly, I just shy away from the populace. Then after seeing some life's events, I started to realise that I had to emerge. I can go back into my shell but I have to face reality even if it sucks. So to me, Wataru by going back in time not just messes with quantum physics but also portrays his mental weakness. So what if his father manages to get into his thick skull, he hasn't changed till the ending. The fact is he went back in time to change things. So now it's like instead of changing yourself to suit the world, you change the world to suit you which is totally "unrealistic".

Edited August 26, 2009 by Tales

[Toku Warrior]

I think what Ryuki was getting at about Wataru as a character is that he represents a small portion of humanity. The kind that just breaks down and and acts in ways that they think might be better if they weren't there. That's why Wataru went back. He thought if he wasn't around then none of what had currently happened (Mio's death, Taiga wanting to kill him, Mio even becoming the next Fangire Queen & Kengo's persona change) would not have happened.

His intentions were at first the cowards way but after meeting his parents and having Otoya literally verbally knock some sense in him by sacrificing himself for Maya by reducing his own lifespan by using Kivat's father and the Dark Kiva suit, Wataru changed and realized the errors of his previous decisions.

I'm not making excuses for Wataru but I'm clearly pointing out a fact that some people may not clearly realize the aspects of his outcasted life as a Fandiri and being a Fandiri Rider. He was basically the worst kind of person life has to offer in being a total recluse but even a total recluse has at least a couple of friends. A recluse, given the chance, can do great things. The only major drawback on Kiva itself is what Durendal pointed out with the series' poor writing of the characters.

Jirou and Otoya were actually the best characters as in 1986 it was still the Showa Era. This being made clear, men of their calibur were slightly more arrogant (which is portrayed by Jirous attitude most of the time).

So all-n-all with Wataru:

Beginning of series - total useless wimp

middle of series - a more reliable person

near the end of the series - back to being a wimp and basically a coward

just before the end of the series - Otoya helps Wataru realize the truth about life, returing Wataru back to his reliable self

end of series - Wataru is still slightly timid but he's more reliable than what he used to be

Edited August 26, 2009 by Toku Warrior

[Tales]

I see Well, I am sorry. Becos Kiva's character evoked the past that I do not wish to rake up so I am a little well negative especially after the part Wataru went otaku again after Bishop unleashed his other side and then his way of changing the timeline by going back in time only made me more upset. Back about 6-7 years ago I would find Wataru quite similar to me. But now I find Wataru just a coward and perhaps repulsive.

Ok now back to this debate,

Actually the showa/heisei comparision is wrong. The problem with Pre Kabuto or Post Kabuto Riders is not about whether the characters are manly or girly. Or whether he is a recluse or the archtypal heroes that we all grew up knowing. But how the show is executed.

Just as durendal mentioned for Kiva, thank you. I think the problem is the execution of the story or script. And also maybe Inoue should really take a break from Rider. I dunno how to say this exactly, the execution of the show is sliding in terms of quality. Execution could meant the story writing, character development .etc

I dunno how to describe this exactly.......

Edited August 26, 2009 by Tales

[durendal]

Do note, that Otaku IS a derogatory term. If they call you Otaku, they are insulting you. I find it funny how many western fans would want to call themselves "Otaku".

On the note of riders being "role model", I don't think this would be appropriate. In today's generation, I don't think shows will depict the main hero as a role model. If you didn't notice, today's show mostly consists of "Reality" shows, thus the producers would want something that is more close to reality. But they could have done it better. And that's the main problem. There is nothing wrong in depicting Wataru the way he is. It is the development of his character that was lacking. A good example of character development is Jirou. In 1986, he is the brash, violent and quick tempered Wolfen. But in 2008, he is the level headed ally. The show succeeded in showing how Jirou turned from a berserker to a composed gentleman. Kiva may have failed in some points, but there are still some points that are well made.

[Tales]

Do note, that Otaku IS a derogatory term. If they call you Otaku, they are insulting you. I find it funny how many western fans would want to call themselves "Otaku".

On the note of riders being "role model", I don't think this would be appropriate. In today's generation, I don't think shows will depict the main hero as a role model. If you didn't notice, today's show mostly consists of "Reality" shows, thus the producers would want something that is more close to reality. But they could have done it better. And that's the main problem. There is nothing wrong in depicting Wataru the way he is. It is the development of his character that was lacking. A good example of character development is Jirou. In 1986, he is the brash, violent and quick tempered Wolfen. But in 2008, he is the level headed ally. The show succeeded in showing how Jirou turned from a berserker to a composed gentleman. Kiva may have failed in some points, but there are still some points that are well made.

Exactly, my point durendal. So you understand why I hated Wataru? It wasn't just the show. And if Kiva was really mimicking Japanese people in real life, are they implying that Japanese people are starting to become "otakus". I dun think a Japanese would love to hear that if it was a derogatory term.

And about the role model subject, I was thinking on the common phrase I always hear in HJU or Rangerboard, saying "this is a kid's show". So if this is a kid's show... and you make bad examples. What makes you think that the kids won't follow their idols? I read this book on emotional intelligence is that most children will follow their parents at a certain age but they will start to mimic others at a later stage.

[Tales]

But just to add to the subject, fantasy heroes have portrayed many aspects of morality at some point or maybe even they represent a force of justice that is non existent in reality. Like say Batman to me appears like that force of justice that people at the lower gutters of society dreamed about. Possibly some people who are living in fear from the mafia or loansharks would find Batman appealing as a role model. But whether his actions are right is debatable.

Superman is represents a lot of thing too many aspects to be listed.

How different as these western heroes from Japanese heroes?

Actually not really quite different in fact they are similar is many ways.

Every boy or girl needs some kind role model to look up to in childhood. With fairy tales lost their grip in life, what else other than these fictional heroes or more to make the mental lives less empty. And it cannot be the J-dramas that are just merchandises to promote some actor or actress's career.

[Toku Warrior]

If Kiva was really mimicking Japanese people in real life, are they implying that Japanese people are starting to become "otakus". I dun think a Japanese would love to hear that if it was a derogatory term.

Ok, just saying that it's focused on a Japanese person isn't fully correct. It has nothing to do with a single nationality or country. Yes, Kamen Rider is from Japan but it takes a few things from a lot of other different cultures when going through its story. Kiva is not mimicing the Japanese as a whole, he's mimicing a small portion of HUMANITY as a whole, not just a single nationality.

I can understand that he reminds you of a way that you used to be and you don't like that but that's saying you hate every single person in the world that is like that. Every person is different and each individule can only take so much mental truama and stress before the snap and have a complete break down. Every Rider series of the Heisei Era has allowed a main Rider to take on the persona of a lot of different stereotypes that people find themselves labeled as.

The original Kuuga was and Agito were kind and caring people who fouoght for others and note themselves. Ryuki fought to stop the fighting, he was basically a pacifist in a way but not a total one in the sense that he wouildn't fight unless he actually had to in order to protect the innocent or another Rider from a wrongful attack. Faiz and Decade are both pricks but have geniun hearts. their rough outer exterior hides a more nobel side of their persona. Typical common city person in some ways. Can't really talk about Hibiki as I have not watched that series.

Kabuto was the stuck up asshole who had good intentions but had a hard time showing his true feelings to someone. He believed he was better. A type of aristocrat. Blade personafies the gullable yet determined person. Someone who believes in people and that can lead to his downfall but he still gives every person the benefit of the dought. Den-O and Kiva are both timid people but their true strength comes from the moment when they are truely needed most. Den-O suffers from bad luck or he is just never in the right place at the right time. This is why he lack maturity which he later developes. Kiva is more of the anit-social hero as he doesn't like to be around people for afraid of not being accepted and being hurt. He does get over this in the end and continues on with being shy and timid but not as bad as he used to be.