Gigantic XD weight/height ratio

[Enzyme-eternal]

I hadn’t thought of that but yeah it could just have been a one off, I mean it would make fighting the “regular” sized Zoalords kinda anticlimactic if Sho just activated the Exceed and crushed them. Still, with Apollion and the female Guyver it could be a while before either Sho or Agito actually have a fight. Plus there is the possibility that one of the unrevealed Zoalords could have a giant, and if so probability more powerful than Khan’s, Zoaform. Who knows what could happen but I think we’ll see the Exceed again, I have a feeling there are one or two more tricks up its massive, bio-mechanical sleeve for us to see.

[*YoungGuyver]

I was wondering though. The energy, or rather mass of the Exceed. I mean, Takaya just added 132 to each Guyver in order to give us a mass of each respective Gigantic. So I have a doubt that he's just pulling the number for the Exceed's mass out of thin air. There has to be some principle for it. Unless he's gotten a little lazy as a writer over the years.

I'm wondering, if we are indeed on the right track with this energy thing, how would he have come up with a figure for energy/mass value? It would have to be pretty exact, wouldn't it? What if the point of interaction between the normal fabric of space, and the extended dimensions space is where the extra mass comes from? I mean, gravitons and radiation and everything travel through normal matter all the time. Mass from an object on one side of Earth is felt on the other-energy travels through matter. But if this dimensional extension theory is right, then the greater bulk of the body is simply energy imposing mathematical values to the locations and interactions on a rather small number of particles by comparison. Now, in my opinion, that energy should affect the resulting mass; but what if Takaya is considering the internal function of the Exceed as sacred ground... as in, the function of the energy that generates the exceed size shields the internal structure from outside energy/influences (allowing the Exceed to be impervious to 'most' attacks and such). That would suggest that if anything, the surface of the exceed might be where outside energy sources are most likely to affect the Exceed. The energy at the surface might be how the Exceed gets its extreme mass. We would need to calculate the surface area. A computer model would be the easiest way to do this. If we could take a Gigantic figure and scan it into a digital effects shops system, and get a computer model of the gigantic that way, we could easily get the computer to calculate the surface area for us. Then we could play around with numbers until we find an equation that matches the mass. Of course, there is always volume too. We simply have to take a known quantity of water, dip a Gigantic model inside, and calculate the volume of water that was displaced. Scale the numbers of course.

Sorry, how Takaya came by those numbers is bugging me.

Oh, and as an after thought, we might see the Exceed a little sooner than expected if the Ark ever starts acting up. I mean, the Exceed is space ship size, right? Or rather the Exceed is the size of the Relic, but the Ark is 52 times the size of the Relic. Everyone is thinking 'zoalord', but what if the Ark has a true battle form. We've already seen a few panels open up in order for it to do some weird things. It's an organic ship, it's already shown that it can morph to some extent.

As a side note, I know I suggested Quantum entanglement, but I don't like to use quantum entanglement per say, because it involves particles sharing properties without a medium for communicating across the distance between them. I don't like that part of the theories early development, and I don't think that applies here either, as the Exceed is still using a considerable amount of energy to maintain the Exceed state. I myself think that the energy is the medium for communication between points at which the particles are co-existing. Well, particle in the plural form is a bit weak, as I believe that truly there is only the original particle of the Gigantic within the exceed, and that the energy is simply allowing the properties of each particle to exist in various places-as if in a greater size.

sigh. To see it in your head is one thing. To say it in text is another.

[Enzyme-eternal]

I don’t want to be the one that says, “it can be big because it just can” but Takaya using suspension of disbelief to sidestep the size issue is a possibility. After all he is a fan of movies that require you to ignore the fact that things growing that big would be subject to every issue previously razed in this thread.

It is entirely possible that one or more of our theories is the method by which the Exceed overcomes these problems but this is a fictional entity we’re taking about. We all have to keep the deus-ex-machena (I think that’s how its spelt), the Exceed can be that big because it’s an alien super armor, idea in mind.

I hope it isn’t though.

On a cheerier note, I like the idea of the Ark being an enemy in of itself, that would be cool.

[*Jess♥]

youngguyver, it seems your post is suggesting that exceed is purely an energy filled shell.

it's an interesting idea, but I personally am totally against it.

I have a good reason don't worry.

well the volume to weight ratio of exceed is exactly the same as the volume/weight ratio of gigantic.

I feel that for takaya sensei to have made it this way is very significant. the idea of exceed being a shell doesn't mesh with this. for exceed to be a vastly different structure and to match the volume/weight ratio would be far too 'convenient' for my liking.

therefore I believe that exceed must be exactly the same inner structure as gigantic.

I do not believe that Takaya sensei discounted teh need to be far denser when increasing in size, he is too clever for that. not to mention the fact he is a big fan of Godzilla so it would be one mammoth oversight to get teh weights too far wrong. no, he did it that way specifically on purpose.

this is why i believe that exceed has exactly the same structure. even the same number of atoms, just increased somehow.

in some fashion exceed is defying the laws of physics (as we know it) by teh incredible increse in energy.

that's why i think he is perhaps using energy fields within the very structure of the atoms to increase the size.

I would have to say my understanding of this is very limited, but I think it would not do to change teh inner structure and workings of teh gigantic when going xceed.. because I think takaya sensei has left us too big of a clue with this volume/weight ratio.

[Enzyme-eternal]

Another issue to consider is the host, if the Exceed were just an energy filled shell then that would mean the host, and the host’s brain, would have to be converted to energy so the Control Metal wouldn’t have anything to attach too. I think that’s something we need to remember, the Control Metal has to be connected to the host’s brain in order for the Guyver, and by extension the Gigantic and Exceed, to function.

I’ve been thinking about that and I’ve come up with a theory, this doesn’t really effect any of the other theories in this thread as it only deals with the Control Metal and the host’s brain. Anyway, we have some understanding about the Control Metal and what it does but what if the method by which the Gigantic becomes Exceed requires constant regulation to maintain. Such regulation is not a normal function of the Control Metal so, because the brain has to scale up to be attached to the Control Metal the Exceed uses the excess brain mass to form pathways for the regulation of the Exceed. This would allow an oversized brain to function normally, as the original brain mass is isolated from the mutated mass by the Control Metal connection.

I now it’s a bit out there but no matter how the Exceed is achieved the Control Metal/brain interaction will have to be resolved.

[*zeo]

Typically the brain has to be proportional to the body, the actual size of the brain isn't as important as the ratio of its size to the body. Thus the greater the ratio of the brain versus body size is the greater the intelligence.

Just like the body size and volume ratios this seems to be a fairly consistent rule of biology. Explaining for example why a whale isn't smarter than us even though its brain is much larger than ours but compared to its body ratio is smaller than our ratio.

Conservation of energy being one of the basis for why that generally works out that way. The Brain uses more energy than any other organ in your body. So the size is limited to what the body can support unless the extra brain power is vital for survival like it is in us.

There are of course many other factors to consider but it's a safe bet to say the Exceed has a big brain

[*YoungGuyver]

Ryuki, I think you and I are visualizing it the same way. You are saying that the energy is making the atoms bigger. What do you think I have been saying? I am merely trying to offer a method by which the energy works.

I still can't get over the size of the worms brain. It fits onto a pin head, and yet has a long body. Then there is the head size of a baby human. Interesting, that if a human baby maintained the same proportion through adult hood, humans would have basketball sized heads. But the basics of what Zeo is saying holds merit

[Enzyme-eternal]

I should have said this in my last post but the reason that I think the brain would have to be altered is the way brains work. As I understand it, the human brain functions be passing electrical impulses between the wrinkled areas of the surface, which is why less complex animal brains are smoother (I know there’s more to it than that but this is the part that matters here). The problem is that if you enlarge a human brain to the size it would be inside the Exceed would it still be able to function normally? The electrical impulses of the brain would have to increase in voltage of course though the Exceed has access to the boost dimension so that wouldn’t really be a problem. However, I don’t know enough about the mechanisms of the brain to say if that would have an effect on the host but I do remember that greater surface area results in better functionality, which is why our brains have folds.

Sho didn’t seem effected by this, his thought processes and intelligence seemed consistent with his normal state that could be explained as a function of the Control Metal, though greater intellectual capacity seems like a plus in a fight to me. Like I said, I don’t really know if any of this would have an effect but I thought I should put it out there anyway.

I’ve kinda veering off topic with this so to address the original point, can we even say there is a height/weight ratio now that we’ve all pretty much agreed that the Exceed isn’t just a scaled up version of the Gigantic. I mean without knowing the inner structure or composition of the Exceed we can’t really take about ratios without something to compare it with and since the Exceed doesn’t have the exact same structure as the Gigantic we can’t us it as a comparison. Really we’ll have to wait for Guyver 3 or the female Guyver (if she can) to use the Exceed before any real comparison can be made regarding height to weight.

[*Jess♥]

I’ve kinda veering off topic with this so to address the original point, can we even say there is a height/weight ratio now that we’ve all pretty much agreed that the Exceed isn’t just a scaled up version of the Gigantic. I mean without knowing the inner structure or composition of the Exceed we can’t really take about ratios without something to compare it with and since the Exceed doesn’t have the exact same structure as the Gigantic we can’t us it as a comparison. Really we’ll have to wait for Guyver 3 or the female Guyver (if she can) to use the Exceed before any real comparison can be made regarding height to weight.

yes we can say there is a height weight ratio (actually volume/weight ratio) .. because we have numbers for height and weight.

and that is precisely why i said that the gigantic XD is MORE LIKELY to be exactly the same structure as giagntic.

why did you say "since the Exceed doesn’t have the exact same structure as the Gigantic" what do you base that statement on?

we don't have a cross section of him.

the fact that he is the same mass per cm^3 suggests that he is exactly the same structural makeup.

"now that we’ve all pretty much agreed that the Exceed isn’t just a scaled up version of the Gigantic."

actually no, this is exactly what me and youngguyver are saying :- that it IS just a scaled up version of gigantic.

scaled up at the atomic level.

I am quite perplexed as how you could come up with these conckusions..

youngguyver, yes I based my ideas upon what you initially said, I have been sticking with you all this time, but i only took issue with your last post, because it sounded like you were suggesting XD was a shell. if you weren't suggesting that, then i must have misunderstood your words. :wink:

[*Jess♥]

scaled up at the atomic level.

Each atomic orbital corresponds to a particular energy level of the electron. The electron can change its state to a higher energy level by absorbing a photon with sufficient energy to boost it into the new quantum state. Likewise, through spontaneous emission, an electron in a higher energy state can drop to a lower energy state while radiating the excess energy as a photon. These characteristic energy values, defined by the differences in the energies of the quantum states, are responsible for atomic spectral lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom

I believe that Guyver may be basically driving up the number of neutrons. making Guyver literally 'heavy'..

the neutrons then radiate energy because teh atom would be unstable, and the energy that is being radiated is being absorbed by the electrons and thus increasing their orbital path. of course this would make Guyver incredibly radioactive, so I think that perhaps he is using teh shield to contain the damaging radiation therefore also reducing the waste energy and making sure that the electrons gain more and more of the radiation to increase the size.

I think this also explains a glow effect of Guyver when he is growing. the glow effect is only disappeared when Guyver is keeping this reaction running steadily and has his shields active. when Guyver is growing, the energy production is so high, the shields can't keep it all in. when he stabilises, teh shields keep in the amount of energy that it needs and then when the shields are taken down, the radiation dissipates and Guyver shrinks. I think at this stage the radiation is only of the safe kind, no gamma radiation or xrays.

[*zeo]

Then there is the head size of a baby human. Interesting, that if a human baby maintained the same proportion through adult hood, humans would have basketball sized heads.

This is consistent with what I've said, babies have to learn faster than adults and the brain for human's doesn't change size much throughout the life of a person. So a lot of the energy needed to grow the brain comes from the mother and we just basically maintain it for the rest of our lives.

Then there are examples like certain birds can make their brains get bigger when they are getting ready to do something complex like migrate and then the brain returns to normal size afterward.

So conservation of energy, versus cost benefit, is the biological rule for how much energy and mass is dedicated to brain power.

As the whale example shows the brain is scalable, but performance relates to its ratio to the body.

The main hurdle for the Exceed is at that size nerve impulses would take a long time to get anywhere, but that's going by normal bio-chemical reaction (basically an impulse from your toe to your brain travels at about 75 MPH) but chemical reactions can be accelerated and the Gigantic itself probably factors in as it has been noted the size factor should be effecting even the normal Gigantic.

Generally as life forms get bigger their metabolism gets slower and more sluggish. But the Gigantic is at least as fast as the normal Guyver, if not faster. Even the normal Guyver has noted an accelerated perception as some like the new Female Guyver has noted that zoanoids seem to be moving almost in slow motion to her.

This suggests the normal speed of the brain processes are being accelerated by the Unit.

Other factors of the human brain is memory, scientists have discovered memory is stored in specific pattern and locations. Which means it's scalable with brain size. So technically the brain can be scaled and still function the same and the Unit seems to compensate for the only real problem of speed.

So the only real question is which of our theories of how the Gigantic scales up to Exceed works the best?

[Enzyme-eternal]

yes we can say there is a height weight ratio (actually volume/weight ratio) .. because we have numbers for height and weight.

and that is precisely why i said that the gigantic XD is MORE LIKELY to be exactly the same structure as giagntic.

why did you say "since the Exceed doesn’t have the exact same structure as the Gigantic" what do you base that statement on?

we don't have a cross section of him.

the fact that he is the same mass per cm^3 suggests that he is exactly the same structural makeup.

"now that we’ve all pretty much agreed that the Exceed isn’t just a scaled up version of the Gigantic."

actually no, this is exactly what me and youngguyver are saying :- that it IS just a scaled up version of gigantic.

scaled up at the atomic level.

I am quite perplexed as how you could come up with these conckusions..

I said, “Exceed doesn’t have the exact same structure as the Gigantic” because it can’t! I base this on the fact that there are three pages writhe with posts trying to solve that problem…several of which are yours.

I guess I didn’t realize, you and YoungGuyver’s theory didn’t imply the Exceed was different because I assumed drastic structural changes where a necessity for the level of alteration involved with the theory. There are two problems I can see, if you increase the size of the actual atoms that doesn’t solve the problem so much as redirect it, as the atoms would be under considerable stress and the Exceed would essentially be a massive atomic bomb. Likewise if you, as I believe you are suggesting, widen the distance between the nuclei within the atomic bonds then the resulting stress on the bonds from the necessary extent of the widening would be massive. The Exceed would disintegrate at the slightest provocation, never mind blocking Khans beam.

That’s all academic anyway because organic substances would suffer from completely different problems under such an atomic expansion. You see, as I understand it, the atoms within an organic substance are grouped into nucleotides which them selves are arranged into DNA and/or RNA (which one doesn’t matter here). Why this matters is because if you enlarge the atoms of living thing that has the knock-on effect of enlarging the nucleotides and then DNA/RNA strands. This all continues from the protean on words, so everything else about the Exceed is enlarged. Over and above the fact that the cell walls would collapse, the Exceed would have no working respiratory system because the red blood cells would be too big to carry the norm-sized oxygen.

Sorry if all that seemed antagonistic but I’m a little hurt that my conclusions and thermos where referred to as concoctions …that wasn’t nice.

[*Jess♥]

I said, “Exceed doesn’t have the exact same structure as the Gigantic” because it can’t! I base this on the fact that there are three pages writhe with posts trying to solve that problem…several of which are yours.

I guess I didn’t realize, you and YoungGuyver’s theory didn’t imply the Exceed was different because I assumed drastic structural changes where a necessity for the level of alteration involved with the theory. There are two problems I can see, if you increase the size of the actual atoms that doesn’t solve the problem so much as redirect it, as the atoms would be under considerable stress and the Exceed would essentially be a massive atomic bomb. Likewise if you, as I believe you are suggesting, widen the distance between the nuclei within the atomic bonds then the resulting stress on the bonds from the necessary extent of the widening would be massive. The Exceed would disintegrate at the slightest provocation, never mind blocking Khans beam.

That’s all academic anyway because organic substances would suffer from completely different problems under such an atomic expansion. You see, as I understand it, the atoms within an organic substance are grouped into nucleotides which them selves are arranged into DNA and/or RNA (which one doesn’t matter here). Why this matters is because if you enlarge the atoms of living thing that has the knock-on effect of enlarging the nucleotides and then DNA/RNA strands. This all continues from the protean on words, so everything else about the Exceed is enlarged. Over and above the fact that the cell walls would collapse, the Exceed would have no working respiratory system because the red blood cells would be too big to carry the norm-sized oxygen.

Sorry if all that seemed antagonistic but I’m a little hurt that my conclusions and thermos where referred to as concoctions …that wasn’t nice.

who called your conclusions concotions? you're right, that isn't very nice.

my idea of the atom expanding was just an idea. I am sure you are right about teh atomic stability...

i was thinkig that in that case, perhaps teh protons are increased as well?

I am not exactly clear on it all, I have not learned a lot about atomic physics.

the point was, I was trying to get teh ball rolling on this train of thought. a way to make teh atoms larger.

because it is clear to me that by giving XD the same volume/weight ratio of gigantic, the author is making it quite clear that he is the same, only larger. and at the same time, he is defying the laws of physics.

in any case, i think that a humanoid that size would be impossible.

no matter what structure you try and give it, I think it would not be possible.

so it seems silly to me to suggest that the structure is different especially considering the identical volum/weight ratio.

it seems far more logical to me to be looking at this from an atomic physics standpoint as opposed to a structural or biological standpoint.

let me ask this... why else would takaya sensei make teh volume/weight ratio identical? he MUST have done teh math. it's not something that is very easy to get right just by 'making up' the numbers. so he has to have worked that out specifically and for a reason. but what reason? is there any other reason he might have used other than teh body being exactly the same only bigger?

I am only taking issue with teh statement that we are all agreed. I want to make it clear that we haven't all agreed on that. I felt that i was clear that I thought the inner structure was teh same.

If you want to work with my idea, I would like it if you could suggest alternative ideas to work with it. not against it.

if you don't like the idea from hte offset and don't want to think about ways it could work, then please do not pay any heed to it. just leave it at that. because i feel that if you simply don't like the idea, you may be prejudiced and not consider all possibilities.

oh, you mentioned breathing. I do not believe that breathing is necessary to address because we do not see XD breathing, he could simply be running off batteries.

[*zeo]

I guess I didn’t realize, you and YoungGuyver’s theory didn’t imply the Exceed was different because I assumed drastic structural changes where a necessity for the level of alteration involved with the theory.

Hmm, could be I think you missed the part that the changes were noted with the Gigantic to begin with. The Gigantic starts out less dense than the normal Guyver, yet is far more powerful and durable. Ryuki makes the point the density and form of the Gigantic remains exactly the same all the way to Exceed form.

So I think the confusion is you are thinking the normal Gigantic is suppose to be normal, versus the Exceed, when rather it shows that it was different to begin with when you compare it to the normal Guyver.

Even how the Gigantic handles damage is different from the normal Guyver, who bleeds when cut etc. While the Gigantic has shown hardly any blood when damaged. Basically cutting the Gigantic is more like cutting a fruit, you get some fluids but it quickly stops and you have to cut pretty deep to get even that much.

The Relic Biology was of course very different from ours, you could even say it was almost plant like. So since the Gigantic is a merger between the Guyver and a Unit based off the Relic that it should be considered that the Gigantic modifies the host far more than the standard Guyver Unit does.

The Guyver itself is basically part alien, since the Unit instantly remodels the host body and combines it with the Guyver organism. So modified even further by the Gigantic means we can't assume human rules of biology would still apply to the Gigantic.

That said though you're concerns about enlarging atoms, etc are valid and would normally be a great concern but it should be remembered that the Gigantic body is basically a closed system. If everything is scaled, including the physical constants, then the body will work the same at any scale. Things like oxygen would also get scaled with both YoungGuyver's and Ryuki's theories, even if the Exceed still needed to breath any oxygen drawn could just be scaled up just like the Exceed was scaled up when drawn in.

The main problem is thermodynamics of different scaled objects differ greatly and mechanical efficiency of any particular design also gets effected by scale. Which is why with a disease like Gigantism in which someone never stops growing, they often die from heart failure even though the heart gets larger with the rest of the body it doesn't work well when made larger than its intended size. However, again, the Gigantic is hardly human anymore.

Also YoungGuyver's theory avoids this as a dimensional shift would scale everything including the physical factors.

My own belief is that the Unit combined energy infusion with the Bio-Boost (which includes rapid cellular growth as can be seen with the rapid regeneration it induces). Merged with the organism the cell structure can use the energy infusion to reinforce itself the same way the normal Guyver increases the strength and durability of the host muscles and bones. Really, normal human bones and muscles would liquify at the pressures induced by Guyver level strength if the unit didn't enhance them.

A honey comb like structure for example can be stacked almost indefinitely since the design efficiently spreads the strain. It can even be said to get stronger the more cells you add as the load gets spread so well. Of course the molecular structure of the Gigantic is far more complex but the basic principle could still apply with cells that can reinforce themselves with energy infusion. The system would self correct for the thermodynamics as it scales since the unit naturally regulates thermal energy and is essentially part of its metabolism. The Relic after all survived on thermal energy...

So to me this fits more with the Exceed since it did not seem to me that the physics were scaled and fits to the idea that the Exceed is something fundamentally consistent to the Gigantic and how it is designed.

[*Jess♥]

so zeo, are you suggesting that teh atomic size is not changed and that the cells or the gigantiuc are made of this honeycomb like structure? and then when it goes exceed, it basically adds more 'combs'?

It sounds interesting, but how would you have every single structure in hte body working like that? I mean, would muscle fibres and other cell types actually work if their structure was made in this fashion?

although I am thinking now about lipids..

I thik youngguyver was talking about lipids a lot in hte past when talking about ATP and how that could relate to the guyvers 'bio-energy'.. I also remember that the Guyver expels excess lipids when it opens the face vents.. so perhaps teh Guyver modifies teh usage of lipids and replaces these with a much more advanced compound that has this honey comb type structure you recommended.

I think this is an interesting idea, but I feel that this kind of theory leaves a gap when we consider that teh Guyver XD seems to be constantly carrying out an energy operation. all these orbs are glowing and if it were a simple case of adding more mass and increasing the amount of this honey comb type structure... I do not believe these orbs would continue to glow like that.

upon further thought about the honeycomb style structure.. I think honeycomb structures are good under compression, but I am not sure about shearing forces and also torsion. I thik it would be nice to have a theory so simple as just adding more structure.. but my physics thoughts won't let me still. it's your fault you know. you always say about defying the laws of physics. if you hadn't said it i would still be dumb.

so going back to atomic enlargment.

I thought about siply adding more gluons and whatnot into hte parts of the atoms. essentially what we would be doing is turning it into exotic matter. i mean, I am sure that a neutron with more of those little itty pieces in it, is no longer a neutron.. but whatever. I don't care. my thought ws that if you added more of the little itty pieces then you gt a bigger atom. sometimes ignorance is bliss ya know?

anyway i wasn't worried about how it would work initially. but then i thought to be fair to all o ya guys, I would think about how exactly this would occur. then i thought oh if we increase the size of a proton, we increae th charge, if we increase teh size of the electron we increase teh charge, so essentially, we have teh same amount of pulling force and teh size of tehshell would remain the same.

so i thought how to increase the size of the shell.. well i figured that if we add more energy to hte electron we increase the size of the shell. this increases the size but not teh mass.. so obviously we need to increase teh size of teh neutrons.. or amount of neutrons.. so the neutrons become radioactive but then i thought where does th eelectrons get energy from. usually photoins, so if the neutrons are giving off photons.. then why not give them to hte electrons.. but then you mentioned the instability. iitially i htought there wqouldn't be a problem because the atoms around it are not changing the number of electrons i hte outer shell so no chemical reactions can occure.. but then you guys said it would be a problem so i thought how to keep the energetic electron from flying out.. in crease teh positive charge of teh nucleus. add more protons or increase the size of the protons. does this solve the problem?

I don't know. you guys will have to tell me. I have limited knowledge of atomic forces.

let me ask you.. how does guyrs shield even work? it does someting with electrons right?

so why can't it just be controlling the electrons with this tehcnology?

P.S. SORRY ABOUT MY TYPING... IT IS LATE AT NIGHT AND I HAD SO MUCH IN MY MIND IT WAS HARD TO GET IT OUT FAST ENOUGH AND MY FINGERS ARE JUST NOT SKILLED ENOUGH. AND SINCE IT IS LATE I REALLY CAN'T AFFORD TO GO OVER IT AL AND CHECK IT.

[*zeo]

I think this is an interesting idea, but I feel that this kind of theory leaves a gap when we consider that teh Guyver XD seems to be constantly carrying out an energy operation. all these orbs are glowing and if it were a simple case of adding more mass and increasing the amount of this honey comb type structure... I do not believe these orbs would continue to glow like that.

As I see it the Gigantic is always carrying out an energy operation, which would explain why it would collapse when it uses up too much energy and auto de-activates. The energy infusion is vital to its structure basically. It's just with the Exceed that the shear amount of energy is so incredible that it causes the orbs to noticeably glow and is the reason the Exceed is Red.

Energy is also less dense than matter like steam is less dense than water, even though it amounts to the same thing. So with an energy infusion based super charged Bio-Boost growth the charge of energy concentration would increase with size without noticeably effecting mass as much as raw matter, as it would essentially be limited to offsetting the mostly empty space that is being filled with said energy. Explaining the same density from Gigantic to Exceed but still giving a proportional increase in abilities with a higher intensity charge of energy.

upon further thought about the honeycomb style structure.. I think honeycomb structures are good under compression, but I am not sure about shearing forces and also torsion. I thik it would be nice to have a theory so simple as just adding more structure.. but my physics thoughts won't let me still. it's your fault you know. you always say about defying the laws of physics. if you hadn't said it i would still be dumb.

Note, the honey comb is just for comparison. As I said, the actual molecular structure would be something more complex but the principle in laymen terms is basically the same, just in 3D so applicable for the full range of movement and associated stress factors. The actual structure would be on the atomic scale as the same structure would also have to be able to contain the infused energy.

Possibly something innate even to the Guyver organism that combined with the Relic Organism produced a structure that takes advantage of the energy infusion to make a light weight and super strong molecular makeup. So since the Guyver Organism merges with the host cells, like it does with the bones and muscles. It can apply this effect throughout the body to allow the entire body to take advantage of this feature. The Gigantic further makes it effective by making the host even less human as it merges with the Relic Organism and thus make the Exceed possible.

let me ask you.. how does guyrs shield even work? it does someting with electrons right?

so why can't it just be controlling the electrons with this tehcnology?

You asked that before, this basically breaks down to the sophistication of the level of control. Though it would explain the need for the CM to get larger.

However the intensity of energy involved is such at that scale that the slightest loss of control would likely be highly visible. Such as when Exceed got knocked out of the sky by Khan's Barrier Penetrating Bio-Missiles. Things like Aptom sticking like a fly on flypaper, or an aurora borialis effect, etc.

As I stated before, this doesn't rule it out but seems to me to make it unlikely. But then again I could just be biased for my theory.

[*Jess♥]

well i think that's true for everyone. but i think we are all being jolly open minded in this thread.

[Enzyme-eternal]

I’d like to say that I wasn’t arbitrarily dismissing the enlarged atoms theory, I was just trying to point out that if the Exceed were a robot or something it wouldn’t work. However, as it is organic its atomic structure is different to non-organic materials so it can work, but it ha its own issues.

“Exotic materials” is a good place to start because the normal rules of atomic structure don’t always apply within biology, take oxygen for example. In its natural state it is Oxygen 2 (two oxygen molecules) but within the blood stream it is carried as Oxygen 1 (which is otherwise impossibly). So some function of the Exceed’s biology could create an otherwise impossible atomic state for the atoms to safely undergo enlargement. Another thing to consider is that the Exceed may have unknown elements (elements not yet discovered and/or not present on Earth) as part of its atomic structure that would be more tolerant of the enlargement process.

Of course that still leaves the issue of the enlarged cells but if, as zeo said, the Gigantic and therefore the Exceed is more plant based then the cells would have actual cellular walls. Unlike animal calls that only have a membrane planet calls have a solid structure which makes them more durable and in this case would mean the Exceed’s cells would have greater structural integrity. Do that help?

I think I’ve said this before but it is possible that Takaya intended the Exceed to be a scaled up version of Gigantic and simply overlooked the fact that its technically impossible, or rather improbable. That would explain why the Exceed has the same volume/weight ratio even though physics says it shouldn’t.

[*Jess♥]

yeah, it's possible that takaya ignored the physics implications.

I don't feel that is the case thogh, since we know takaya is a huge fan of godzilla. and cosidering this scene was most likely his homage to godzilla, I think it is a big stretch of the imagination to say he did not look up the numbers of Godzilla and at least compare.

http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla

godzilla is between 50 - 100 metres and weighs 20,000 to 60,000 tons.

draglord khan is 82 metres and weighs ~7000 tons.

exceed is 52 metres and weighs ~3000 tons.

now this is interesting.

draglords mass also seems to be an issue here. zeo, did you alredy mention this? I think you may have mentioned it a while back, but it did not seem to stick in my mind.

comparing draglords size to XD size, I beleive that draglords weight is proportional to the size difference.

therefore i believe that draglord is roughly the same mass/cm^3.

does this turn anythig on it's head?

draglord does have a zoacrystal.... which is capable of energy conversion/compression to a high degree.

how can we work forward from this?

it certainly does throw a spanner in the works.

[*Jess♥]

something else is on my mind.

it is stated that draglord is the result of 'thousands of zoanoids'

i'm not sure if ths can be cosidered splitting hairs, but it does not say anywhere 'tens of thousands'

so if we consider teh number at the most 10,000. that makes each zoanoid 700 kg.

that might work at a very big stretch.. but what if it were the lower end of teh scale, 1000 zoanoids.. that would make each zoanoid 7 ton.

[Enzyme-eternal]

First, I’d like to clarify that I didn’t really mean that he flat-out ignored the physics issues with enlarging the Gigantic to Exceed just that he didn’t consider them. It isn’t really something that instantly springs to mind unless you analyze it or are versed in the physics involved before hand. Plus, as you say he is a Godzilla fan so being accustomed to seeing such technically impossible scaling could have made him less likely to question the plausibility of the Exceed.

As for the Dragon Lord, that’s something of a gray area because it didn’t really grow because it was constructed from Zoanoids and it required more of them to achieve its full power. The way I look at it, the Dragon Lord is more or less all of the Zoanoids that make its body stacked together so it doesn’t necessarily suffer from the same physics issues. As for the weight, well since its physiology is so different from the Exceed I don’t think we can really compare the two so I don’t think it changes anything.

[*zeo]

now this is interesting.

draglords mass also seems to be an issue here. zeo, did you alredy mention this? I think you may have mentioned it a while back, but it did not seem to stick in my mind.

A bit in passing, since compared to Godzilla and similar monsters both Khan and Exceed are pretty much light weights. But Khan is as Enzyme-eternal pointed out composed of lots and lots of bodies stacked together. So cellularly he would be about the same density as the zoanoids that make up his body. And unlike Exceed Khan doesn't need the body to work like a normal body, he just needed the raw matter to make up his form.

The strain of his size is probably offset by the shape-shifting aspect, and of course using up zoanoids like no tomorrow, and Exceed did manage to tear his forearms off which could be indicative that his physical structure relies a lot on mass and not so much actual dexterity. Meaning Khan doesn't violate the physical laws so much as gets around them.

Exceed is the main problem because of the proportional increase in power and apparently dexterity, which not even the massively powerful Bio-Missiles or Purgatorium could put any noticeable damage at all.

Given the lack of increase density to explain the increase power, leaves us with few possibilities but of course the theories provided are very intriguing.

[*YoungGuyver]

Aw man, I just tried finding a link to something that explains particle families. How different particle families are basically the same-same spin and such, but at different energy levels. Whatever. Maybe I'll find it later. I'm on the library computer for now (24 minutes I have left after reading that)

So since the Guyver Organism merges with the host cells, like it does with the bones and muscles

Note: We have NO indication that the organism fuses with the bones and muscles. In fact, our translations say that the Guyver infuses them with power. That suggests that the organism is manipulating them, but not directly merging with them. We also know that the organism is increasing the amount of muscle and bone tissue, generating the material, just as it would generate a gravity controller.

Thanks for working the math Ryuki

[*zeo]

Then you better change the translation on the VDF because it clearly states the organism bonds with the bones and muscles...

There is also the whole nature of the Guyver Organism too, the whole bonding to the host thing and consuming the host if not controlled by the CM, and the natural limits of human bone and tissue that would make it impossible to achieve Guyver level strength, etc without serious augmentation that can only happen if something changes the fundamental nature of the human body's biological make-up that would go far beyond simple augmentation (really our body's aren't designed to work with infused energy of any kind, we'll just fry and Guyver level strength would liquify our bones and muscles). . . Otherwise the Guyver might as well be IRONMAN and bypass the host limitations altogether but then it wouldn't be a Bio-Boosting organism.

Really, we should consider taking the organism bonding with every aspect of the host as a given. Everything else is just extra details of what else is going on but wouldn't have been possible without the organism bonding first to make the augmentations possible. . .

Feel free to disagree but that's how I see it.

[Enzyme-eternal]

I agree about the Guyver bonding with the host, and then the Gigantic bonds with the Guyver, resulting in a doubly augmented human idea. On a related note, I’ve been thinking about how the theories in this thread might work better if applied to individual areas of the Exceed.

Like the energy infused, honeycomb cell structure idea would work for the bones of the Exceed giving them the necessary structural integrity required. Where as the muscles of the enlarged atomic structure (expanding the electrons orbits) idea would work better for the muscles as the unstable energy that would result from this could be contained and even processed into the musculature. This could be a function of the armor plates, regulated by the Control Metal of course. As for the armor plates, I’m sticking with normal cellular mass increase just because the are made of an alien material. I’m retracting my earlier theory about the host’s brain because any additional regulation would be handled by the Control Metal. I’m taking the Exceed to be only bone, muscle and armor (the Control Metal and other devices I’m lumping into the alien material category) because that’s all there seems to be so far. However, I’m fairly sure that the host’s brain is still present because that’s what the Control Metal links too.

I’m kinda sidestepping on this one but maybe the environment within the Exceed’s skull allows the brain to function after growing so large.

Or maybe the brain is enlarges though the dimensional lens effect that is contained within the confines of the skull therefore overcoming the dimensional instability issues. I’m not mocking your theory by the way and I didn’t omit it out of dislike for the idea I just don’t understand the physics involved well enough to apply it beyond, what I’m sure is a wholly flowed interpretation. Though it seems to me that if the Exceed were occupying two dimensions at once (sorry if I’m miles away from what you where trying to say) then this would create a “weak spot” in realty essentially. Hence my brain idea…my head hurts.

On a side note human brains are actually bigger then an animal our size should have but our brains have to do more so it makes sense, and we don’t only use 10% of our brains but we do normally only use around 10% at a time. Also we know what all the parts of our brain do, more or less, we just aren’t sure how exactly…fun brain facts are fun.