Marvel Characters vs. the Guyvers

[Juggernought]

He is no god if odin himself placed a handicap on him being that if he is separated from his hammer for more than a minute he turns mortal.

[Kamui de' Tempest]

It always throws me for a loop how we equate who wins with how strong a person is. Why is that? Wouldn't it come down to overall capabilities and all that?

[Tyranthrax]

Standard Guyver 1 has 100 times the strength of a normal human. Which places him around Spiderman strength (10 tons).

This has been covered before. A Guyver's strength is rated in the 40-ton class.

Guvers' biggest advantage is the Megasmasher though. As far as we know, the mega-smasher could be High Powered in Marvel term to Extremely Powerful. Somewhere between Cyclopse's Optic beam to Silver Surfer blasts. Where exactly who knows. Far as we know Iron man's Force Field and Energy Absortion device might be able to save IM from destruction. Might

Not actually knowing much about the Silver Surfer, I'd say the Mega-Smasher would be much closer to him in power than Cyclop's Optic Beam. I mean, his beams are strong, but rely more on either fast, continuous hits, or prolonged hits. The Guyver releases one, quick, MASSIVE energy burst, and its done.

It always throws me for a loop how we equate who wins with how strong a person is. Why is that? Wouldn't it come down to overall capabilities and all that?

We're not doing that. We've just been tryin' to decide on the strength thing because, reading back through it, you'd notice the strength topic peaked up, so was obviously focused on. I mean, we were talking about the HULK and THOR, two, massively strong characters. They don't need too many more of their capabilities brought in to help them...

[Kamui de' Tempest]

Standard Guyver 1 has 100 times the strength of a normal human. Which places him around Spiderman strength (10 tons).

Iron Man hovers around 90 to 95 tons at present.

*This is taken (ofcourse and once again) from the Marvel Database, here: http://www.marveldatabase.com/Spider-Man_(Peter_Parker)*

Superhuman Strength: Spider-Man possesses the proportionate strength of a spider, granting him superhuman strength. He was originally capable of lifting 10 tons or more when under extreme duress. This capacity was increased to 15 tons after an encounter with an enemy called the Queen. Now since the events in The Other, his strength has increased to the point where he can lift about 20 tons. He is able to throw objects as heavy as a car with ease. When in combat, Spider-Man must pull his punches unless fighting someone of similar or greater durability and power. Otherwise, his strength would kill a normal person. His leg muscles have developed to the point where he can easily jump several stories in a single bound. If Spider-Man is under extremely great stress, he can to lift several tons over his normal strength if the need arises.

[*zeo]

Wow, they made him about twice as powerful as the old traditional Spiderman.

Though his reflex rating was 5-40 times normal, says so on the old trading cards and some issues of the comic in which he shows off his speed.

But I've seen stranger errors in those marvel database files before.

[Tyranthrax]

Just what IS the proportionate strength of a Spider? The 'wonderful' internet didn't have much to say, other than mentioning Spider-man HAS the proportionate strength of one. I've heard 8x your own weight before, but that can't be right, as I know Peter doesn't weigh over a ton...

[*zeo]

Spider strength varies from one species type to another but the stronger ones can lift well over 50 times their own weight. Similar to ants.

Though considering Peter's weight it seems he can lift over 100 times his weight.

[Kamui de' Tempest]

You gotta remember, through some story arcs Peters strength and abilities had been enhanced. One story arc that comes to mind is The Other and the one with Queen. Heck in one ish, Spider-Man ended up teaming up with Elecktra thinking he was tailing Electro and... anyway, long story short, he lifted an empty train car plus half of the other connected train car clear off the tracks and held over his head. Now, I don't know exactly how heavy those train cars are but that's strong for someone with just the proportionate strength of a spider AND that's before The Other story arc (which is a good read by the way. Get your hands on the TPB if you can) and Queen.

http://marvel.com/universe/Spider-Man_(Peter_Parker)#I_Am_the_Spider(now this is a marvel sponsored sight, if not THE Marvel sight(make your own descions). I don't think that thier gonna let one of thier flagship titles take a hit at having incorrect data presented on it's page, especially after the release of it's new movie).)

[*zeo]

Trust me when I tell you all comic companies have a history of making mistakes on character stats every now and then. It's usually something small but it does happen. They're human too and humans make mistakes.

Which is why it is good to keep a history of the stats and see how consistent they are over time.

For example Spiderman was originally only able to jump up to 40 feet straight up but this figure has varied every now and then as whoever prints the stats isn't given the right info or something as I got trading cards with different stats and this was long before the Queen or any of the other new story arcs.

Also consider that reflex speed is usually directly proportional to how high a character can jump. If Spiderman can leap extremely high now and can even sprint to over 100 MPH for short bursts then his reflexes should be faster than 18x.

More than likely they probably got confused with his base level reflexes and the old Spiderman was rated as 5-40x. So if his old base was 5, which explains how ordinary guys occassionally got the drop on him if he was over confident, then the 18x could be his new base level but not his max.

Also remember Marvel has changed their power scale, the old scale went from 1-7 but now it's 1-12. So there is also the possibility that they calculate reflexes differently now and the 15x could have been 40x under the old scale. Which could have come around since scientist have found that athletes can increase their reflex rate to higher, nearly double, than normal average.

So if they are still using peak human ability for their scale then that may have been what happened. But it seems doubtful.

[Lost Soul]

I got to go with zeo here, marvel scales aren't the most thrustworthy scales at all, just look at Wolverine, like ten years or so ago he almost died from his adamantium being drained from his body by Magneto and now he survives being incarnated? To the skleton? And even regenerates?

Ah well, that's a change...

[Kamui de' Tempest]

The same could be said for DC as well. Look at Super-Man.

[Lost Soul]

True, from godlike to "normal" power to red and blue and back on track to godlike again.

[McAvoy]

Soemthing occured to me about a Guyver Wolveriene. He his skull would not be pierced by the control medal obviously for the nueral connections. Though if it did, the regeneration would be awesome.

Obviously his skeleton would be superior to even the bio boosted one.

[McAvoy]

Iron Man can only reach the +100 class if properly supplied with energy. Without it he rates as around a 90 class. Click here to see what I'm saying. http://www.marveldatabase.com/Iron_Man_(Tony_Stark)

And also, the liquid like under suit he wears in the armor isn't SKIN as SKIN is succeptable to Ultron, which is why he abandoned that armor design and opted for the Tin Man Armor afterwards. It is in fact the actual undersheath that has been supercompressed and stored in the hollows of his bones (as stated in Iron Man vol4 #5 pt.5 of 6 of the Extremis 6 parter and also stated at this web link http://www.marveldatabase.com/S.K.I.N._Armor).

I really don't see the Guyver having much of a tough time with Tony. Granted, Tony is almost Omnipotent when it comes to manipulating the Infosphere(for lack of a better word), but the Guyver doesn't run by electronics, radio wave, or satelite linkage. If it was Cyber Guyver then there would be contention, but the regular Unit G is pretty much thought run'd. Even the way they communicate with each other through the organisms on there back is purely telepathic, again no short rf burst or UHF transmissions.... just thought. There's no real way for Tony to gain access to the CM without being telepathic instead of being technopathic.

http://www.marveldatabase.com/Wolverine_(James_Howlett)

(here's alittle look at Wovies abilities. Someone should come up with a wiki for the guyver like this )

And as far as the Wolverine vs. Iron Man regeneration. In the Civil War story line, Wolvie was blasted by Nitro to such a degree that he had now muscle, neverous, or epidermal system left. All that remained was his skeleton, his eye's (not really sure how they survived), and his brain. Inside of a hour or two he regrew his ENTIRE body. That's very impressive even by Guyver standards. Full regrowth from a CM takes up and over 11 hours, Wolvie did it in +2. Iron Man made a comment (more of a challenge) to Wolvie to see who healed faster, but never made good on it( also in the Civil War arc). Don't get me wrong... I love everything Marvel and I'm not biased either way, they are both charecters I have come to enjoy quite thuroughly, But in all fairness in a Guyver vs Iron Man... I'd have to say that the Guyver wins ( it might be a good fight, but the Guyver has it. If it was a protracted battle and the Guyver didn't use Megasmasher after activating the Blast Shield in close proximity it might be different.) And a healing contest between Wolverine and Iron Man... well my monies on the Old Man, Bub.

Stanard Guyver 1 vs Current Iron Man = Iron Man the Winner.

Gigantic Guyver 1 vs Current Iron Man = Tie. Both are very very powerful.

Ultra-Gigantic Guyver 1 (60 meters tall) vs Current Iron man = Guyver 1 for the win.

It all balances out.

Standard Guyver 1 has 100 times the strength of a normal human. Which places him around Spiderman strength (10 tons).

Iron Man hovers around 90 to 95 tons at present.

Guvers' biggest advantage is the Megasmasher though. As far as we know, the mega-smasher could be High Powered in Marvel term to Extremely Powerful. Somewhere between Cyclopse's Optic beam to Silver Surfer blasts. Where exactly who knows. Far as we know Iron man's Force Field and Energy Absortion device might be able to save IM from destruction. Might

It all depends on what armor Iron Man has. His first Grey Armor was stated to vary between 10 to 100 men depending on who you talked to. His armor that was built after the Red and silver was stated to be 1,000 men.

[Kamui de' Tempest]

I'm talking of the Extremis armor with Tony having the Extremis upgrade nano tech. Just for the benifit of the doubt.

[McAvoy]

I'm just saying. Iron Man's armors have always been inconsistent. Because you would think that Iron Man's armor by the end of the V.1 would be in the tens of thousands as far as strength is concerned. But it seems the armor has either gotten weaker or stayed the same.

Hell after the Sentient Armor was destroyed, Tony started to use the Classic armor and was having some problems dealing with foes he would have easily taken cared of if he had his previous armor. The Classic Armor demonstrated far greater acts of power than the V.3 armor.

[*zeo]

Actually IronMan has been fairly consistant, remember his enemies have advanced just like he has. The original Gray Armor was nowhere near as powerful as the others. It could barely fly and could only fire the repulsors a couple of times before draining the armors power.

For example, in the issue in which these theives stole that armor and each used only a part of it demonstrated that as each quickly used up the power of the armor. The one with the boots could only hover a bit, etc.

Strength was also only in the ten ton class back then. And when he finally created the normal red and gold armor his power was still below the 50 ton class.

His first encounter with Drax for example, when Drax still was intelligent and in the 50 ton class strength, had Drax nearly squashing his arm through the armor.

It took quite awhile before he exceeded the 50 ton class range and even then most of his amazing feets were done by focusing the total power of the armor to do just one thing. Like focusing all his power into a single repulsor blast. Course when he did that against Doom back then it just ticked him off.

Other times he just got lucky like with the Hulk he knocked him out after the Hulk had already been dazed by having a fighter jet exploding in his face and focusing his armor's total power into a single punch.

The strain was so great his armor overloaded and he was trapped inside. Ant Man had to shrink and go inside the armor to manually free Tony from the armor.

The White and Red armor was the first really powerful armor but even then he was focusing his power at one task at a time. Like using strength and shields at the same time was often a problem.

Afterwards Tony recreated the Gray armor from scratch before returning to the traditional Gold and Red armor, then the War Machine Armor and then the Tele-presense armor, etc.

So yes the IronMan armor has had a close to 100 ton strength range for awhile but most of that time it is only when the armor's power had been fully focused on strength.

The present Armor's ability to multi-task shows how far the armor has come. Tony doesn't have to prioritize as much as he used to.

[McAvoy]

Actually he re-created the Grey armor after he got over his alcoholism. But the armor's use was two fold. One was for him to get back into the swing of thigs, and two he needed an armor to defend himself and the others from James Rhodes who was Iron Man at the time. The two faced off and he truly showed that this armor was not at like his older armor.

After his armor was destroyed, then he created the powerful Silver Centurion armor. That was destroyed by Firepower during the Armor Wars. To create a new face for Iron Man, he went back with Red and Gold. That armor I believe was even stronger and more versatile than the Silver Centurion. It wasn't until War Machine that he exceeded this. But the greatest was of course the Anti Hulk armor he created when he was using the now classic Modular armor. (The onethat we see in the video games).

[*zeo]

Yes, that is the order of events but the armor advancement and capabilities have been consistent throughout the series.

Armors like the Stealth Armor would of course be less powerful because it is specialized for stealth and not power.

Most significantly being how the armor has gained more and more energy reserve capacity as time has passed. Reducing the need to focus power for one task at a time.

The silver armor for example could not use full strength and shields at the same time.

As the armor has advanced the abilities to use multiple abilities at peak power has increased.

While the abilities of the armor have been consistent with their design and whether or not they are specialized or not.

[McAvoy]

I never argued that he couldn't run any of his armor's capabilities at full power without diverting power from other systems into another.

I'm just saying for example he was wearing the Classic armor after the Sentient armor was destroyed. That armor alone should not have survived any of his encounters because it should be after all practical purposes obsolete.

[*zeo]

Though it was far more advance than the original Gray Armor, as Tony had developed far more advance technology since the original, the main thing is you're forgetting the fact what made IronMan Invincible was not so much the armor but how Tony used it!!!

[McAvoy]

Well of course. All of his armors always had little addons that he put in there ver the years.

Anyone remember the ol' roller skates from the 60's and 70's? He put those in after his repulsors burned out.

[*zeo]

Yeah the rocket skates, he also used them to conserve energy.

But you're missing the point. The whole armor is one big collection of gadgets. But he doesn't rely on any one of them. IronMan has won virtually every battle because Tony fights smart. He knows technology and the limits and capabilities of his armor.

Not even Rhodes was ever as good as Tony in the Armor. And the fact was the Gray Armor was shown being out classed, Tony just compensated for it.

It was like the Gray Hulk, not as powerful but it really only had to be powerful enough to get the job done. So similarly Tony just had to rely on his intelligence more.

Really it was no different then any other time he had to fight an opponent more powerful than his armor. IronMan always figures out a way. This is because of Tony the man, not the armor.

The more advance and more powerful the armor just makes it easier on Tony.

Besides your argument was that the armor advancement was inconsistant when it was consistant. There are many things IronMan can do now that he could never do before.

Armor durability for one has definitely improved over the years.

And there is a big difference from being able to lift 90 tons when full armor power is channeled into strength versus now being able to lift 90 tons and do a host of other things at the same time.

Like with the Silver Armor, there was this one scene in which he was under attack by a heat ray but he was holding up a pillar that if it collapsed it would cave in the ceiling and kill everyone in the building. So he had to rely on his cooling systems to handle the heat as he was using all his power to enhance his strength. Not till he stopped that could he divert power into his shields.

But the modern IronMan can easily do the same thing and shield himself at the same time.

[Warbyrd13]

Ok awhile back Wizard did a rating on who was the baddiest of all the good guys. The top three went like this... Superman #3 Thor GOD of Thunder #2 and Silver Surfer #1. Thor is a God of War for the Vikings all his ablities aren't just about brute strenght but he has cunning also. His greates rival is Loki the God of evil an who is a genuis when it comes to plots and plans to take out Thor.

I have read about Warrior Guyver for several years now and in the end Jason is still a mortal man with a powerful artifact created for war. Thor is the God of war and normaly like all good marvel charecters holds back in his fights unless like it has been the past few years when all the marvel charecters have been cutting loose with thier ablities and the writers have been exploring new ways to apply thier existing ablities and adding other ablities as well for better chacter devolpment.

Give or take what marvel charecter vrs what guyver charecter really depends on how well thier ablities match up.

Here is an example Jean Summers empowered with the Pheonix Force Vrs Alkerphenal(sp?)... How long would this fight last or how much energy would be drained away from Alk fighting Jean off?

I have been impressed with the creativity of your guys stories and charecter creation so keep up the good work.

[Kamui de' Tempest]

Ok.....before I go into who would win this one, let ask for some clarifications. Are we talking about Jean when she first bonded to the Pheonix Force or as she is now, cause if it's as she is now I think this will answer your question: She can hold universes in the palms of her hands. I currenty don't have the resources to back my statement as I'm writing this post on my phone but with mild research on her current powerlevel by Marvel standards is that of a god like being in every sensebof the phrase. She can and has wiped out entire realities to allow others to grow, which is what the Pheonix Force is supposed to do , I like to think of it as the Multiverses gardener...pruninig realities that don't work or aren't supposed to be to allow ones that are. I don't even think W'Kar on his best day on crack and Vault can touch that. I mean most if not all the DF's have been measured to real world units ie.. megatons of TNT and the like. How can that measure up to something with force and ability cultivate or destroy realities and dimensions and whatever other ies and sions are out there?