Feminenty vs masculinity: who knows, who cares?

[*Chernaudi]

I've always wondered about femininity and masculinity, and the standards that have been set, and why I don't think that they work.

 

Take me, for example.  I'm into cars, history, weapons, weather, traditional guy stuff.  Yet I like to write, be creative, and if I had a girlfriend, I'd go shopping with her and do her hair and nails.  That's the feminine stuff I'm into, and I also like to cook. 

 

I really think that the broad standards of femininity and masculinity are kinda crap and don't make a lot of sense.  What works for one person probably won't work for another of the same gender or anything like that.  Everyone's different.

 

Personally, I like women who are kinda feminine, but have a tomboyish edge to them.  I see that as plenty feminine.  I see myself as plenty masculine, though I'm into some girly stuff and that's one of the reasons I'd like to have a girlfriend. 

 

I don't think that we can just put people into groups and define them by any trait, really, for anything as it relates to personality traits.  That includes gender and having a feminine or masculine personality.  It's just a waste of time and that's why I'm basically like "who cares?!"

 

So, feel free to discuss your views on this subject

[*Jess♥]

This is something I have done a lot of research on due to my own unique circumstances.

 

Here is how I would present what I have learned.

There is a spectrum of states that any person can be in and there are also more categories than most people realise.

majority of people think there are two categories in people, sex and sexuality. so for any given person, that could be straight male or gay male or gay woman etc. Our society does not yet have the mechanism to explore people's condition more accurately. yes there are some terms such as tomboy or sissy, etc. some are derogatory and some are weighted. I will now present the different categories.

 

There is physical sex, gender identity, gender expression and sexuality. There may be more categories, but this has not yet been identified.

There is also the problem of people thinking that these are binary states, that people are either one or the other.

 

so for physical sex, people think there is only male and female. but actually there is varying states in-between. there are plenty of women with physical traits that are more masculine than the average woman. Then there are intersex people which can't be adequately defined either way. Even people who were born one way, can change further on in life and there are various conditions that cause mosaic genetics. one such condition called klinefelter syndrome produces people who generally turn out looking more male due to the presence of a Y chromosome. the Y chromosome will always produce an increase in Testosterone to such a degree that Testosterone producing cells will form. in the gonads. It's a fairly controversial area since any presence of testosterone will automatically lead to a person being labelled a male even if they were originally supposed to be female. There are also things like polycistic ovary's and thyroid issues.  It was thought once upon a time that female was the default for humans, but studies have shown that the ovaries have to fight to stay as ovaries. there is testosterone in the female body in small amounts for various processes and the exposure to T would end up turning the ovaries into the male form of cells. they wouldn't be testicles, but they would be testosterone producing cells. I can't remember the term.

 

For gender identity, this is basically what a person feels in and of themselves. It's a difficult one to pin down, but generally speaking most people fit the gender they were assigned at birth. so the doctors look at the child, they announce it's a boy and the person identifies as a boy all their life and are happy that way. This is pretty much the mental aspect of sex. most medical text these days hold the physical to be king and the mind to be subsequent to that. There fore the person who has a gender that differs from the perceived physical sex is deemed to have a mental disorder called gender dysphoria. Another term that is used commonly is transgender. transgender is an adjective that describes a person who has differing physical and mental sex, or differing gender and body. This is seen by many as a weighted term as well since most people have come to believe it as being a person who is born as one sex but then decides they don't want to be that any more. Any people I have met who are transgender are pretty clear in that they were always the gender that they feel they are inside, their body was just developed wrong.

 

For gender expression, we have people who are happy in their physical form yet wish to express themselves in ways that do not conform to society's set standard for gender. So a girl who lies a lot of rough sports, is showing a gender expression not 'typical' of a girl. This is an area a lot of people may be very familiar with as it is very fluid and most people have their own area where they express more feminine or masculine as they expect for their own sex. More extreme forms of crossover in gender expression are known as cross dressers or Drag queens / kings. Yes there is a more derogatory term called transvestite but it's not seen as a kind term these days.

 

Then Sexuality, of course most people are very familiar with this. Sexuality is a matter of preference when it comes to relationships.

 

 

Anyone can be any combination of the above.

[*Chernaudi]

My issue is trying to shoehorn people into broad categories and trying to have one all-encompassing definition of what is what.  I don't think that most people will fit such definitions.  It's kinda like saying that a cat's a cat.  Perhaps that's true, but there are several breeds of cat, and even the "common" house cat will be different as far as fur color and length, and body structure.

 

People are varying degrees of whatever, and femininity and masculinity are two of the things that will vary from people to people as far as expression, how they feel, and how their personality is.  And personality is mostly what I'm trying to look at.

 

People's personalities are different, and what I've mentioned above is no exception.  Of course, I do have a beef with how society sets arbitrary standards and how narrow minded they can be.

[*Jess♥]

that's why i view it as a scale.

 

actually a scale is a simplified version.

 

I mean for gender identity there is something like this

 

Male ------------------Neutral-------------------Female

 

but this is very simplified because some people identify gender queer, gender fluid, agender, etc. gender neutral may be a perfect balance between male and female but some people feel positive that they are a positive absence of male and female gender. and gender fluid are people who tend to flip flop between male and female.

So in that sense I agree with what you are saying.

[Guest Jupiter]

Man, all this information is pounding like waves inside my head.

[*Jess♥]

I put the main parts in font size 14 and the elaboration in font size 12 so people could skip the extra bits and just get teh summary.

I think i'll change that to font size 10 though to make it clearer.

[*Chernaudi]

This is mostly about personality, actually, as well as people's perceptions.  Both things will differ from person to person.  One of my favorite things to discuss is tomboy vs girly-girl.  We have that in Guyver with Shizu, Mizuki and Natsuki showing various traits of femininity, tomboy-ism and girly-girl-ism.  Shizu is overtly feminine but fights and is a leader of combatants, Natsuki is a sci-fi addict, and Mizuki is sort of like the damsel.  Which is tomboyish or girly-girlish is up to an individual opinion, but I consider all of them to be feminine.

 

Also in my fan fic, we have Lia and Camel.  Lia is overtly feminine, but, like Shizu, she's also a fighter and has leadership skills with both men and women.  And Camel's a decorated retired Army Officer, a car nut, a weapons expert, but yet he likes doing feminine things with Lia, has long hair, a slightly feminine body-shape, and his battle forms amps the latter up, though it's mostly due to advantages in combat (lower center of gravity and increased agility), and he likes emulating female forms to confront enemies in an "ambush" situation (belief that women are weaker than men, suckering dumbass men into traps, etc).

 

Of course, I think that a lot of standards with gender, race, religion, and stuff like that are kinda arbitrary, overly-broad, and pretty much irrelevant.  We're all human, after all, and we're 99% the same, regardless of the 1% that makes us different.  Do we let that separate us, or do we embrace our uniqueness and and not let arbitrary standards divide us?  I vote for the latter, and the world is a better place for it, and would be a better place if more people appreciated that.

[Guest Jupiter]

I like feminine characters in movies and books. My favorite anime character is Reika Mishima, also known as Ixtli in Rahxephon. She takes the form of Ayato's ex girl friend at  the age of 17 who is named Haruka Shitow who is now 30. She's also the most powerful anime character that I have witnessed because she is the Goddess of time, or the Watcher of Time and controls the Rahxephons ( Titans that are controled by the Olans) and seeks to tune the worlds and reset time. I think she's the hottest anime girl that I have seen. Here's what she looks like. Pretty thing isn't she? I have tto say she's one of the reasons why Rahxephon is my favorite. Rahxephons is heavily based on pagan mythology and has many references. In away Mishima is like Athena. She is wise and isn't one to be challenged. Her enemies are the Mu, an immortal race of people who control dolems want to take over humanities own reality and assimilate it theirs. Ixtlie won't allow it, thus she arms an Olan with a Rahxephon.

 

[*Chernaudi]

Well, then I think that you'd really like Lia from my fan fic. She looks like the woman named Lia from the LiaNight music videos I posted, or like a young goth/emo version of Cher. She's pretty feminine for the most part, and she's pretty hot IMO (though she doesn't have piercings or tattoos--vampire hybrid skin doesn't allow for that stuff since the ink won't absorb permanently and piercing tools won't work on vampire/hybrid skin).

Her power and ability is manipulating electrical and electromagnetic fields. It allows her to levitate and use her hair and hands to discharge electricity and she can use that manipulation to discharge energy blasts.

It also doesn't hurt that Lia is married to Camel, they're soul mates, and they can combine powers and attacks. She's pretty feminine and such, but she's also a fighter and a hard-ass when she needs/wants to be. She's got a loving, feminine personality, but she's also got a slight tomboy complex with her own interest in history and cars and such that she shares with Camel.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Chernaudi

[Guest Jupiter]

Yeah, I thought Mishima was pretty awesome with her being a goddess and watcher of time. Its amazing how she created the Rahxephon and Olans to combat against a race of immortals who wanted to enslave the human race. It showed how she gave mankind some kind of salvation.

[*Chernaudi]

I guess, though I'm male, that my avatar sorta points to what I'm like and would like to be personality-wise.  IE, some of the traits that Shizu has with her personality.

[*Jess♥]

Do you think your looks reflect who you truly are?

[*Chernaudi]

Well, I'd def. not a woman, in looks or personality.  But what would you call it if you're a dude who doesn't necessarily like action flicks or stick and ball sports, but likes history, mechanical stuff, and feels like he's more complete with a woman to share stuff with?  Also, how about one who takes more of an interest in the liberal arts and likes talking about girl stuff with girls and feels more comfortable to be himself around women?

[*Jess♥]

well those are feminine aspects aren't they?

I dunno, I mean you could call that a guy with feminine aspects.

My questions was more sort of, do you look like your personality,

I mean some guys who are gay, might hide their true personality by dressing up really butch etc, when actually they are a camp effeminate gay guy.

some straight guys who are effeminate in some ways, might hide that because they think it would make people think they are gay.

[*Jess♥]

by the way, personalitywise...

I just wanna point out, I know plenty of women who act masculine in many ways so when you say def. not a woman in personality, that might be true or not depending on what perspective you take.

what matters there though is what makes you comfortable.

[*Chernaudi]

Well, I guess that I'm more feminine around a woman and I'm not afraid of doing feminine stuff with a woman.  But normally, I don't act femininely.  It usually comes out when I talk to/socialize with women, or when I write stuff.

 

BTW, most of my friends have happened to be women, because I was more comfortably socially with them then most men.  I've never been one for the stereotypical jock stuff.  Maybe I'm a masculine person who likes to be feminine with women and a nerd?  That sorta describes me.

 

Maybe the opposite of Shizu?  Girly girl who's feminine but is in a position of power normally associated with a man?

[Guest Jupiter]

Do you think your looks reflect who you truly are?

 

I was always told to never  judge a book by its cover and that things are not always as they seem to be. But other people seem to judge one another by how they dress and how they look. Say if you dress in black cloths that have chains hanging off of them, tattoos, and body piercings. Some people are going to look at you negatively and judge as if you were a bad person or an irresponsible one. They haven't given you a chance because your appearance offends them and they don't care whether you're the nicest person in the world and would give them money for food if they needed it or some nice gesture. In their heart, because of your looks, they have branded you with a condescending label before they have ever met you. You get the idea when you notice the vacant dirty expression on their face.

 

I dated a goth girl a long time ago. People were very mean to her because she dressed a certain way. I was aware of how she dressed, but I thought she was very sexually attractive. I never took her to meet my family because I know they'd disapprove. Most people would say that she dressed like a whore. However it didn't last long. Our relationship was everything physical. She liked to get high and party, I didn't. I became someone that she used and than one day I sent her a text message that I was done and not to bother texting back, she never sent me a text message back...which was odd. Most girls do anyway. But than again. I wasn't the only guy she was sleeping with.

[*Chernaudi]

Well, I like girls kinda like that, such as Lia from Liana.  In my experiences (we were only friends--she lived/lives in Holland) with her, she's been very nice and she's very family oriented.  After all, her sister is in her band Liana, which is where the band's name came from.  And Lia got made fun of because of how she dressed and did her make up, but I always found her to be attractive and nice once you got to know her a little bit.  And Lia's extremely feminine in my opinion.

 

It's like Shizu and Natsuki.  Shizu is a girly girl who by proxy is a bit of a tomboy (being aggressive and brave as a fighter, not easily freighted, being in a position of power), while Natsuki is someone who I find to be pretty feminine but is a classed as a bit of a tomboy because of her hairstyle and her interests in sci-fi stuff.

 

I guess what Yuki was trying to get as is do you think the way that you look and act represent who or what you think you are?  A "are you comfortable in your own skin" deal.

[*Jess♥]

yep, that's right. goths present as goths because that is who they are and they want to express their inner self in that way.  the reaction of other people towards them is not really the relevant factor. that is due to prejudice and misunderstanding, it's not an issue of people expressing their inner beauty,

[*Chernaudi]

Though, to be honest, Lia has toned down the goth stuff, as evidenced by her appearance in her more recent You Tube videos and photos on Liana's facebook page.  She was more a punk rocker, but she's softened up a bit, though she's still got a bit of the goth/emo/punk thing going on. 

 

People judged her because of how she looked and based on stereotypes/preconceived notions about those people, not on who she was as an individual.  She was/is a lot happier and friendlier than she would be using the "judge a book based on it's cover" deal. 

[Guest Jupiter]

When I started dating my wife before she and I got married. My grandfather and my mom told me that was the first decent girl I actually dated. They said that my wife at the time was way different and had class unlike the girls, who were whores, that I was inviting into my home and into my bed. My grandmother and my mother even said that the girls I dated dressed showing too much cleavage and acted scampy, which I didn't mind. I guess they were right concerning most girls cheated on me.

[*Chernaudi]

I even talked about relationships with Lia in the past, and she was looking for love, not just someone to sleep with.  We haven't talked much the past couple of years because of her being busy with school/college and her musical career, and though I admit that she's a very beautiful and attractive girl, some people do like her only for her body.  If you look at some of her band pics and such, it's clear that Lia is rather buxom and she looks like a model.  But as Lia told me a couple of times, she wants a guy to love her for who she is, not just for her body, or as Lia put it, "treat her as a sex toy".

 

Of course, in the Guyver manga, we have Shizu, who as far as mind, body, and soul, is a dream girl, yet her love is largely unrequited aside from Agito seeing her as a friend.

 

Personally, I'd like to be an affectionate lover with a woman.  It wouldn't just be physical, namely sex.  I'd like to be her companion, and be able to talk to her.  The most physical things that I'm starting out with would be embracing, kissing, cuddling, tickling, though if she's a hair and nails femme, I'd love to play with her hair and do her nails, and I'd love to give her massages, especially rub her feet if she's worn heels all day.  I'd like to make a woman feel special.

[*Jess♥]

chernaudi, The reason why I asked you earlier if you felt your outer self reflected the inner you, is because a lot of the things you have said sound like a lot of the things I have experienced in my life.

I grew up being told I was a boy and I never questioned it, I believed it was true. sure there are parts of me that look a fair bit different from most guys you see in porn etc, but then I figured they always choose the 'perfect specimen' for those type of movies, right?

Anyhow, it turns out they were wrong, I was wrong.

so that is why I asked because there is a chance you might experience something similar.

[*Chernaudi]

No, not really.  I've never questioned if I'm a man/male or not, but I do have to admit to be effeminate, especially towards women.  The stuff I talk about is stuff I'd like to indulge in with a woman.  I have a woman's foot fetish, and I've been interested in "girly" and "feminine" things that girls do.  I've been more comfortable around women, too. 

 

I'm also more emotional than many men are and that's another thing that I guess makes me more comfortable with women.  Physically, well, my arms kinda lack muscle tone to them, but I'm not much different from other members of my family in that respect.  Aside from my older brother, most of the males in my family are of moderate height and build.

 

So, I've never really questioned it, though I do feel more connected to women than men.

[*Jess♥]

I hadn't questioned it either.  actually some things were disguised. for example a lot of desire I have for women, I figured that was always just sexual attraction, but I have realised a lot of it is jealousy. I'm only mentioning it for your consideration. I'm not trying to make any assertions.